Cleo’s Comments (group member since Apr 12, 2016)

Cleo’s comments from the Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages group.

Hi Melvyn! Welcome!

Heidi wrote: "How many children do you home school ..."

Just one who is graduating this year. Sniff, sniff! :-( But now I can do some self-education that I've been putting off. Learning never ends, does it?

Heidi wrote: " A god of love, rather than lust? A god of might, rather than tyrannical power? A god who just aches to give mercy and forgiveness rather than seeking revenge? The idea that every life is precious and matters, rather than the strong shall destroy the weak because they can and that's the order of things? I think so many of these ideas are just taken for granted in our culture today, and reading Gilgamesh really highlighted that for me...."

Some really good points, Heidi. Have you read Beowulf? If not, you would probably enjoy it. It shows the change from a blood feud type society to a more Christian-based society of temperance and forgiveness. I've read it a number of times and it remains one of my favourites!

Kenia wrote: " .... ....were Enkidu and Gilgamesh actually lovers? ..."

In our culture, it's a question that is probably inevitably brought up, so I'm certain you're not the only person who has asked it. It's often problematic to view historical context through a modern lense. We now see male relationships very differently from how they used to be viewed. Historically, most of the time males could have close friendships with nothing sexual about the relationship. Ask eighty-year-olds how same sex friendship was viewed in their time and generally you will get a different picture from the present. Read old books. It can be very different. Not that the question isn't valid and should be addressed if there is evidence of it but if there is no evidence, the value of examining it is questionable given the context of the times.

There have been a number of close male friendships in literature: Gilgamesh and Enkidu, Damon and Pythias, Tom and Huck, Holmes and Watson, George, Harris and Jerome K. Jerome, Frodo and Sam, Pooh and Piglet ....... If we remove the wonderful values of friendship and sexualize it, I think we can lose something enriching and invaluable. And it becomes something else entirely.

However, I'm probably addressing this question as a "go-to question" in many same sex friendships instead of addressing your direct question, Kenia. From my reading of Gilgamesh, I didn't pick up on it. As for the "women" references, women are known for conveying emotion much better than men, and also for being more connected on a deeper level. Perhaps the appellation was then used to emphasize Gilgamesh's loss, sadness and deep grieving. Not sure, but just throwing that out there.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Heidi. I was going to try for a re-read of it this month but I just have too many other books on-the-go at the moment. However, I can add a few of my thoughts from my blog review.

I found many paradoxes in this poem: Gilgamesh is a strong leader, yet he also abuses his power; Gilgamesh is two-thirds god, yet he is also doomed to die; Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight in order to bring peace to Uruk; women are portrayed as vehicles for pleasure, yet are also shown as being wise and having foresight; Enkidu is initially a wild-man, yet he is the one who "tames" Gilgamesh; and in spite of often not sleeping throughout most of the poem, Gilgamesh sleeps at the end, which prevents him from attaining immortality.

Yet in spite of the contradictions, the poet is clear that strength over reason is valueless. Gilgamesh learns that it is trust and integrity in the end that bring acclaim: valuing a friend's life over his own, discovering the wisdom of accepting death as a part of life, and that being a true leader is about good character and responsibility to his subjects, rather than exercising tyranny, oppression and conquest over them.

Kenia, thanks so much for the scientific education. It's fascinating when science and history meet. I now have more carbon dating knowledge than I've ever had before! :-)

Ha ha! You sound like my brother-in-law who is a cancer specialist. Whenever I tease him and tell him doctors guess, he smiles and says, "yes, but they're educated guesses." ;-)

Interesting ...... scientists also have to know when something dies, don't they? And (perhaps this is the romantic in me) because there are so many records (Biblical, Sumerian, Greek, etc.) that claim people/things live for thousands of years, why do we disbelieve them? Just because we don't live that long now? There is a documented case in Queen Elizabeth I's time of a man living 150 years. So again, that for me is a very large question that could have important repercussions with dating, if I understand it correctly.

And isn't the possibility of contamination from outside sources another concern? I know nothing can be perfect, and that the methods are constantly being fine-tuned, but with all the margin for error, it's uncertain enough to be uncertain for me.

Carbon dating is problematic because the carbon in a living thing stops being accumulated when it dies (how does one know exactly when it died?) and then it begins to deplete. So it is an ever-changing factor than needs to be gauged and guessed at. I'm assuming it's the best method we have but certainly not error-free.

One of the things I love about Susan Wise Bauer's history books is that she tells of various theories that different groups have about a particular question .... it's made me much more careful when I read books or articles that claim to know things for certain. We really know very little for certain, which is problematic for humans, as uncertainty really throws us off. We like to KNOW (as you can see from my questions above ;-) ) and that's not always possible.

Modern scholars tend to date events earlier than older scholars used to. I would be helpful to have it explained why, in order to make a more accurate assessment of whether I choose to believe them or not. I've learned that it's problematic to lump "biblical scholars" in one category and say they believe one thing. I took an Introduction to the New Testament course that used a very liberal text. They would claim modern scholars believed certain things (usually historical), but when I looked in a different text, or in the notes of my ESV Bible, they would often claim opposite. :-Z

Does anyone know how they dated Gilgamesh? The Sumerian king list claims their kings lived/ruled for thousands of years. Is it possible one person could live for 2500 years? It's hard to believe, so I can't imagine scholars received their information from the Sumerians even in written form. So did that leave them guessing how long kings lived and they surmised their dates from guesses. Guesses upon guesses? That would make me question the accuracy. In any case, some things to ponder .....

Delaying Medea is just dandy with me. I won't be able to get to it until August, no matter how much I want to start it now.

Hi Heidi! It's so nice to meet another homeschooler! I used the tweaked Classical method with very good results.

As for tips ...... wow, that's difficult. Try not to get distracted by too many books. Reading in a group is wonderful, but if you can find special like-minded people you connect with to do regular buddy reads with, I find that's an excellent way to get to books on your lists. Oh, and don't expect to keep you house perfectly clean until all your children graduate. There are some random tips from yours truly! Glad you found the group!

Hi Christina! So glad that you're joining us! I think there are presently a number of us stalled on The Histories and some who have moved on to History of the Peloponnesian War, which I have. Where are you in your reading?

Thanks for explaining your review process. One of the reasons I dislike reviews is that they're so subjective. One person rates one way and another another and it's hard to compare.

For example, an un-put-downable book for me, generally won't get a 5 star rating. It's the ones that take hard work to get the treasures out of them and then the realization that I need a second or third reading to glean even more. The Iliad was one of those books for me, and to a lesser extent The Odyssey.

With the Iliad, I really had to put myself in a Greek mind-set. The copious amounts of names overwhelmed me at first, but then I realized how important ancestors and family heritage were to the Greeks. Each name had honour attached to it and when I read it that way, I gain a whole new appreciation for it.

The battle scenes were certainly plentiful but they often conveyed more than just fighting. There were certain formalities observed that pointed back to Greek culture, and not only that, the respect shown at times to rivals was very telling. And didn't you think it fascinating that Homer himself appeared to show an appreciation for both sides?

The poetry itself was part of the story; even the sounds of the words were meant to mimic what was occurring in the poem. If you don't have a good translation, it's harder to tell, but what Homer did with his verse is quite amazing.

Personally, I expected to hate it with all the carnage and battles, but I ended up loving it even more than The Odyssey and gave it 5 stars.

I just joined the group!

Sorento62 wrote: "Roughly half my "reading" is actually listening, while driving."

I'm very envious of your listening ability, Julie. I have such a hard time listening to books ---- I guess it's not a skill that I've developed and because of that, it's not a means of reading that I enjoy. I always say I need to practice on more audiobooks but I just can't seem to bring myself to do it. It certainly would get me through more books though.

Sorento62 wrote: "I'm hoping that Mortimer Adler's "How to Read a Book" will give me encouragement to skim the fluffy popular nonfiction business and self help books. "

Let me know what you think of the book when you finish. Adler is NOT about skimming or going quickly through books; he's all about slow, "close" reading. However, his advice does make sense, even though I felt like I needed more time to read after I finished his book! :-Z

Haaze wrote: "Ah, would the Iliad count? :D "

Wait for me! I'm dying to do an in-depth reading of The Iliad, like I did with The Odyssey, but I have to clear The Histories first and start up again with The Faerie Queene before taking on another project. Sigh! Why can't we just read and do nothing else? ;-)

Thanks for sharing your list, Julie. Right now I'm reading:

Cyrus the Persian

I'm reading it for my Classic Children's Lit Event, and it's quite excellent!

As for Pythagoras, I know very little about him, except for the bit about him in Ovid's Metamorphoses. Here's an except from my review:

"Born on Samos, Pythagoras fled the tyranny of his island, preferring exile. Drawing near to the gods, they gave him in his intellect, what nature had denied to sight. He could speak of what governed the universe and was the first to condemn the eating of animals, calling it monstrous to let another die so you may live. It is fine to kill an animal if it is spoiling your crops or dangerous, but for heaven's sake, don't eat it! There is quite a diatribe supporting vegetarianism. At the end, Pythagoras cautions:

"But if, in any case, your mouths still crave
the limbs of butchered beasts, then be aware
that you're devouring your own laborers."

You'll stumble around if you lack reason, but Pythagoras will enlighten you.

He goes on to explain his idea of the principles of the universe, examining how all matter is continuously changing; there is no death only transformation. This great thinker provides us with many examples, from people, to landforms, to the heavens. This is the most (dare I say, only) scientific part of Metamorphoses."

Best of luck with your reading!

It's never too late to start! ;-) You've been spending time in Scandinavia and 19th century Europe, haven't you?

Biblio wrote: "WHO ARE YOU CALLING BOHEMIAN.... SOLDIER??

Now set your timer, give me 1 hour. READ! ... Are you blinking?...

I couldn't resist! I joined that group but only to leach off their info if I need a q..."

LOL! Yes, I can see that you're too much of a free spirit for that group.

:-) I read A Tale of Two Cities with them and I would say they helped me read deeper. I do know that you have to post book titles in a particular way. I do find they sometimes give too much information and I'm exhausted before I even begin the book. But I'm probably in the minority. ;-)

But yes, i know what you mean ..... I like the small eccentric groups better too.