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History of the Peloponnesian War

Thucydides,

Rex Warner (Translator),

Moses I. Finley (Introduction/Notes)

3.88 · Rating details · 32,948 ratings · 882 reviews

Written four hundred years before the birth of Christ, this detailed contemporary account of the long life-and-death struggle between Athens and Sparta stands an excellent chance of fulfilling its author's ambitious claim. Thucydides himself (c.460-400 BC) was an Athenian and achieved the rank of general in the earlier stages of the war. He applied thereafter a passion for ...more

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Paperback, Penguin Classics, 648 pages

Published 1972 by Penguin Books (first published -411)

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Jun 24, 2011 Jan-Maat added it · review of another edition

Shelves: read-in-translation, classical-and-late-antiquity

Towards the end of this book I had a flashback of watching an episode of Mastermind in the 80s, the contestant had chosen the Spartan military as their specialist subject was asked being asked by Magnus Magnusson, the Icelandic Viking who swooped down from the north to Britain as a child to become a TV quiz host, why the Spartans had stopped their campaign on one particular occasion and gone home. The correct answer was that this was in response to an earthquake. Judging by Thucydides' history t ...more

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Mar 03, 2010 Jim rated it it was amazing

What I love about the best ancient Greek literature is how startlingly modern it could be. This is particularly true of Euripides (whom I regard as a 21st century dramatist) and The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. The accounts of the Corcycran revolution, the so-called Melian Dialogue (in which Athens shows itself to be somewhat less enlightened than reputed), and the utter disaster of the Sicilian Expedition can just as easily be taking place now in remote parts of the world.

The ...more

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Aug 12, 2020 Hadrian rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Shelves: history, war, classical-antiquity, nonfiction

"Oh God, Not the Peloponnesian War Again", lamented an article in Foreign Policy. To be honest, I understand where the author is coming from. Besides the fact that there is so much more of history to learn from and read about, Thucydides has been excerpted and misinterpreted almost to meaninglessness. Sentences, summaries, and single anecdotes from his book have been used as the basis for predictions on great power politics and the fate of China and the United States, like white noise over an ac "Oh God, Not the Peloponnesian War Again", lamented an article in Foreign Policy. To be honest, I understand where the author is coming from. Besides the fact that there is so much more of history to learn from and read about, Thucydides has been excerpted and misinterpreted almost to meaninglessness. Sentences, summaries, and single anecdotes from his book have been used as the basis for predictions on great power politics and the fate of China and the United States, like white noise over an actual discussion. I don't need to go over the fine detail about how the United States is different from Athens and China is different from Sparta.

Thucydides does not always help his own case. His prose style is dense and demands close attention; he recites distant place names and generals that can bewilder a casual reader. He is often excerpted, which helps to show the points of his narrative brilliance but also begets the risk of misinterpretation. A student who only reads to the sudden end of the text and then nothing else might overthink about how Sparta overtook Athens - but not know that Thebes would soon prove that Sparta was not invincible, or that Persia loomed over them both, or that Alexander the Great would soon fall upon them all like a lightning bolt or a tornado.

For all that Thucydides was talked about and debated made me realize how much I had forgotten, and so I decided to pick up this edition to reread him and recover some of what I had lost. This edition was better than I had hoped. The text is an older translation, but really there is no effort spared to guide the reader. This massive volume has the text, but a running banner at the top with the year, margins along the side summarizing and dating the events, references to other chapters in the text, eleven appendices on everything from dialects to naval warfare, dozens of maps, and a table in the back comparing events across different theatres of the war. It is an excellent teaching aid, and the rewards of this once inaccessible book are held out for the patient reader to grasp.

Thucydides' telling of the war is filled with battles, rituals, and so many literary speeches. He is a skeptic of Athenian democracy, almost in awe of certain figures like Pericles, and his is a brutish story of power politics, fear, and suspicion. Generals mak1e ruinous mistakes, political leaders talk their way in and out of trouble. There is talk of honor amid cold self-interest. There is stunning cruelty, and it becomes almost routine. It is a small, almost familiar setting - the loss of a few hundred or a thousand is a catastrophe, and the Peloponnesus itself is just smaller than New Jersey. Other people have summarized it better here, so I won't go into the details for the sake of discovering them for yourself. This is an excellent place to do it. ...more

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Jun 17, 2013 Roy Lotz rated it really liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: politics-by-other-means, art-of-compromise, one-damn-thing-after-another

It has been said that Earthling civilization, so far, has created ten thousand wars, but only three intelligent commentaries on war—the commentaries of Thucydides, of Julius Caesar and of Winston Niles Rutherfoord.
—Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan

Some years ago, I waded through the Barnes & Noble edition of Herodotus’ Histories. It was one of the most painful reading experiences of my life. I blame 95% of this on the translator (G.C. Macaulay), who broke new ground in dry, prolix, knotty prose. The final result was to make Herodotus’ narrative—already full to the brim with digressions and asides—into a tangled mess that gave me a never-ending headache.

However, Donald Lateiner’s introduction to that edition was so good that I was left wanting to read more of him. So when I found out that the B & N edition of Thucydides’ famous history also featured an introduction by that scholar, I picked up a copy. But the memory of the pain wrought by Herodotus still burned. It took a few years before I could bring myself to give Greek history another go. But I’m glad I did.

In many ways, Thucydides is the polar opposite of Herodotus. Whereas the latter is relaxed and easygoing, Thucydides is forceful and dogmatic. Herodotus is more than willing to report an entertaining anecdote, to indulge in an aside, or to report multiple occurrences of the same event. Thucydides, by contrast, is always on topic, never indulgent. From the first few sentences, one is aware that he is cutting down and refining his material with ruthless precision. Every fact that makes it to the page has been culled from an ocean of information; every sentence has been written and re-written dozens of times.

The merits of Thucydides are twofold. The most obvious is that he virtually invented modern history—concentrating on political and military developments, and keeping scrupulously to verifiable facts. The other is his rhetorical prowess. From what I’ve been told, his Greek prose was cutting-edge. There is only the faintest echo of this quality in Crawley’s translation (which I still liked, by the way). Nevertheless, the History is at times as gripping as any good novel. The speeches (however closely they adhered to actual fact) are without exception masterpieces—both of drama and of political analysis. The battles, the intrigues, the plots, the strategies, the movements of men and ships—all come alive in Thucydides’ terse, muscular writing.

The Greeks were truly remarkable. In mathematics, Euclid was the standard textbook for over two millennia; in philosophy, Plato and Aristotle still cast their long shadows over the present-day; in literature, there are few authors whose influence can compare with Homer, Sophocles, or Aristophanes. And now we must add Thucydides to their ranks of geniuses. The man managed to set the stage for an entire field of enquiry, and do so with a book that remains both readable and relevant after over two thousand years. If America suffers the same fate as Athens, I at least hope we leave behind half as many great books
...more

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Jan 10, 2009 Alcyone is currently reading it · review of another edition

Favorite quote:
"The absence of romance in my history will, I fear, detract somewhat from its interest, but if it is judged worthy by those inquirers who desire an exact knowledge of the past as an aid to the understanding of the future, which in the course of human things must resemble if it does not reflect it, I shall be content.
In fine I have written my work not as an essay with which to win the applause of the moment but as a possession for all time." -Thucydides
...more

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Jun 06, 2017 Michael rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

If you ever wanted to tackle Thucydides, this is the way to do it. It's beautifully laid out, with helpful maps and other material. The reading experience is profoundly moving, not really for the style but for the sheer weight of human folly on display. This should be required reading for politicians of all stripes. ...more

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Jan 19, 2008 Chris rated it really liked it · review of another edition

I first read Thucydides in college, using Rex Warner's translation in the Penguin edition. As a frosh with little background in ancient history and political science, I didn't have the proper perspective to realize Th.'s critical place in western historiography and political thought. As a junior, I re-read Th., this time in a course on ancient historians. At that point, having had modest exposure to Hobbes, Machiavelli, Burke, Clausewitz and the like, I was better equipped to appreciate Th.'s me I first read Thucydides in college, using Rex Warner's translation in the Penguin edition. As a frosh with little background in ancient history and political science, I didn't have the proper perspective to realize Th.'s critical place in western historiography and political thought. As a junior, I re-read Th., this time in a course on ancient historians. At that point, having had modest exposure to Hobbes, Machiavelli, Burke, Clausewitz and the like, I was better equipped to appreciate Th.'s method--particularly his analyses in the vein of what we'd call "realism" today. Last year I tackled Th. again, this time in Strassler's amazing Landmark edition, and I am grateful that it was available for my third go at probably the most difficult classical author I've run into.

I won't go into details on Th. himself--I'm not a historian and anything I say expounding on how great he was, etc. will of course come off as amateurish and pointless. I will go into how much I admire the product of Strassler's labor of love (he's an unaffiliated scholar) in producing the Landmark edition. First of all, the translation is refreshingly readable and doesn't have the relative stuffiness of an early 20th-century Oxbridge rendering (which, er, I actually rather enjoy every now and then :-)). Second, the marginal timelines, the extensive but not suffocating footnotes, and maps (all carefully placed next to the relevant narrative) make it unnecessary for the reader to flip pages and lose the flow of the story. Furthermore, its appendices are a treasure trove of ancillary information: there is background information on the Athenian polis and imperial administration and the corresponding systems on the Peloponnesian side; discussions of the more technical aspects of ancient warfare; and pages on other topics such as the currency, religion and ethnic groups of the Greeks, each written by a specialist.

In summary, I have nothing but good things to say about this edition--I only wish I'd been able to use it as an undergraduate. I also note that Strassler has just come out with a similar edition of Herodotus. Can't wait to check that one out... ...more

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Feb 15, 2012 Darwin8u rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Shelves: 2012, history, aere-perennius, classics, landmark-classics

If you are going to read Thucydides, the Landmark version is the best place to start. I read this after I became a fan of Strassler's The Landmark Herodotus: The Histories. For me, there is not much better than Thucydides' speeches. "The Funeral Oration of Pericles", "Diodotus to the Athenian Ecclesia", "Demosthenes to his troops at Pylos" & "Nicias before the last sea fight" are all some of the most interesting, moving and inspiring speeches and harangues EVER written.

Thucydides' HOPW (Landmar ...more

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Nov 09, 2017 Yu rated it it was amazing

Shelves: greek-roman, lit-hum-columbia, history

Courage in the face of reality ultimately distinguishes such natures as Thucydides and Plato: Plato is a coward in the face of reality--consequently he flees into the ideal; Thucydides has himself under control--consequently he retains control over things. ------Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols

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Jun 15, 2017 Cleo rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Shelves: classics, history, greek-history

Probably 4.5 stars due to Thucydides dry narrative but an awesome read. Political stupidity has not changed.

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Jan 28, 2010 Smiley rated it liked it

Shelves: ancient-history

3.5 stars

Finally I could finish reading this book after many intervals of being content with what I knew, I didn’t claim I enjoyed all of eight-book Thucydides’s account. Compared to the other history classic of similar stature, Herodotus’s “The Histories” translated by Aubrey de Selincourt, I think, is more enjoyable and impressive regarding the world as viewed by the Greek historian in the fifth century B.C. Contrastively in a smaller scale, Thucydides has ambitiously depicted the twenty-seven 3.5 stars

Finally I could finish reading this book after many intervals of being content with what I knew, I didn’t claim I enjoyed all of eight-book Thucydides’s account. Compared to the other history classic of similar stature, Herodotus’s “The Histories” translated by Aubrey de Selincourt, I think, is more enjoyable and impressive regarding the world as viewed by the Greek historian in the fifth century B.C. Contrastively in a smaller scale, Thucydides has ambitiously depicted the twenty-seven year conflicts between Athens and Sparta with innumerable sieges, commanders, strategies and so on till we simply can’t help getting confused, praying when each book would ever end.

The reason why I decided to read it is that many years ago I read some excerpts of Pericles’ funeral oration somewhere and longed to read it in full. Definitely one of the greatest orators in history, he has since impressed posterity to the extent that few can surpass him as we read from his 7.5-page oration (nos. 35-46). It’s a bit lengthy, I think, for those who would read him for the first time; therefore, the following three extracts should suffice in the meantime.

First, his opening statement:
Many of those who have spoken here in the past have praised the institution of this speech at the close of our ceremony. It seemed to them a mark of honour to our soldiers who have fallen in war that a speech should be made over them. I do not agree. These men have shown themselves valiant in action, and it would be enough, I think, for their glories to be proclaimed in action, as you have just seen it done at this funeral organized by the state. Our belief in the courage and manliness of so many should not be hazarded on the goodness or badness of one man’s speech. … (p. 144)

Then, in praise of those fallen soldiers:
This, then, is the kind of city for which these men, who could not bear the thought of losing her, nobly fought and nobly died. It is only natural that every one of us who survive them should be willing to undergo hardships in her service. And it was for this reason that I have spoken at such length about our city, because I wanted to make it clear that for us there is more at stake than there is for others who lack our advantages; also I wanted my words of praise for the dead to be set in the bright light of evidence. And now the most important of these words has been spoken. I have sung the praise of our city; but it was the courage and gallantry of these men, and of people like them, which made her splendid. … (p. 148)

Finally, in conclusion:
… I have now, as the law demanded, said what I had to say. For the time being our offerings to the dead have been made, and for the future their children will be supported at the public expense by the city, until they come of age. This is the crown and prize which she offers, both to the dead and to their children, for the ordeals which they have faced. Where the rewards of valour are the greatest, there you will find also the best and bravest spirits among the people. And now, when you have mourned for your dear ones, you must depart. (p. 151)

In brief, I think reading this book should inform and inspire its readers on the futility in terms of atrocities of war, being those ancient, medieval, premodern or modern ones till we wonder if there is really peace to all humankind and when.

...more

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Sep 18, 2017 Joaco rated it it was amazing

Shelves: cajonera

This book is impossible to review but I still wanted to give my opinion on this as I try to do with every outstanding book I come across. I mean impossible because this book is the cornerstone for different disciplines, mainly History and International Relations. This is no surprise as Thucydides was intending to provide a historic account of the greatest war of his time, the war between Sparta and Athens while not focusing on any superstitious beliefs. Being the first historian, he set about tr This book is impossible to review but I still wanted to give my opinion on this as I try to do with every outstanding book I come across. I mean impossible because this book is the cornerstone for different disciplines, mainly History and International Relations. This is no surprise as Thucydides was intending to provide a historic account of the greatest war of his time, the war between Sparta and Athens while not focusing on any superstitious beliefs. Being the first historian, he set about trying to understand this great powers struggle over control of the Greek world paying no attention to prophecies (unless it impacted the actions of the actors, as it usually did with Sparta).

Having framed the book on its actual importance, I am left with my impressions. I had assumed the book was going to be a boring account of ship and hoplite numbers per battle as well as one or two mentions to Greek commanders. Obviously, I had completely underestimated Thucydides' skills as well as the great job the translators have done since its time of publication (I guess we owe Hobbes the bulk of it back on the 17th century). The book does have that, but it is so much more.

Thucydides was an important Athenian figure during this conflict. He was a general while one of the greatest Spartan commanders -Brasidas- was fighting in Thrace and he lived some time on Sparta as well after being exiled by the Athenians. This allowed him to provide insight on the conflict while not being completely one sided. Additionally, his involvement in the everyday struggle the leaders had, allowed him to provide a unique account on human nature of his time. The book immerses you in this conflict in a way that I thought impossible to do. You will hear the speeches of the Athenian politicians; you will feel the disgust Thucydides had when writing about the demagogue Cleon, as well as Cleon exploits of his fame and good fortune against the Spartans on Sphacteria; you will smell the sea, sweat, and tears of the Athenians fighting for their survival on Syracuse; all this embedded on a page turning narrative where diplomacy, treason, political maneuvers, and personal traits of different leaders shaped the world.

This is an excellent book that anyone interested in the ancient Hellenic world must read. ...more

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Jan 14, 2014 Phoenix2 rated it liked it · review of another edition

Recommends it for: classicals fans history addicts

Shelves: classics

The Peloponnesian War is something that historicly interests me the most from the ancient greek history, so this book was something that I've read with ease. In addition the writing is quite understandable and easy to follow. ...more

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Apr 23, 2015 Bettie rated it liked it · review of another edition

Recommends it for: BBC Radio Listeners

Shelves: spring-2015, war, published-411bc, memento-mori, nonfiction, foxtrotted-uniform, classic, arch, casual-violence, torture

BABT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05s2pbm

Description: 'My work is not a piece of writing designed to meet the taste of an immediate public, but was done to last for ever,' Thucydides

Ancient Greek historian Thucydides' spellbinding first-hand account chronicles the devastating 27-year-long war between Athens and Sparta during the 5th century BC. It was a life-and-death struggle that reshaped the face of ancient Greece and pitted Athenian democracy against brutal Spartan militarism.

Thucydides himself was an Athenian aristocrat and general who went on to record what he saw as the greatest war of all time, applying a passion for accuracy and a contempt for myth admired by historians today. Looking at why nations go to war, what makes a great leader, and whether might can be better than right, he became the father of modern Realpolitik. His influence fed into the works of Machiavelli, Thomas Hobbs and the politics of the Cold War and beyond.

Thucydides' masterful account of the end of Greece's Golden Age, depicts an age of revolution, sea battles, military alliances, plague and massacre, but also great bravery and some of the greatest political orations of all time.
Today: With Spartan distrust of the rising power of Athens, is war inevitable?

Abridger: Tom Holland is an award-winning novelist and historian, specialising in the classical and medieval periods. He is the author of 'Rubicon: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Roman Republic', which was shortlisted for the Samuel Johnson Prize, as well as 'Persian Fire', 'Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom', 'In the Shadow of the Sword', as well as several novels. His latest non-fiction book, 'Dynasty', chronicling the Roman Emperors, will be published in 2015.
He has adapted Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides and Virgil for the BBC. His translation of Herodotus was published in 2013. In 2007, he was the winner of the Classical Association prize, awarded to 'the individual who has done most to promote the study of the language, literature and civilisation of Ancient Greece and Rome'."
Reader: David Horovitch
Producer: Justine Willett.

Machiavellian long before that book, and even earlier, by ~200 years, than 孫子兵法: The Art of War.

1. War Begins
2. From Funerals to Plague
3. Spartan Surrender at Pylos
4. An Athenian Atrocity
5. The Beginning of the End ...more

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May 12, 2011 Kenny rated it it was amazing

I need more stars! Thucydides is the man. In 1947, George Marshall "doubt[ed] seriously whether a man can think with full wisdom and with deep convictions regarding certain of the basic issues today" without having read this book. The parallels between the Cold War and the Peloponnesian War as T. describes it are certainly striking. My two favorite sections of this book are the civil war in Corcyra, which T. describes as representative of many civil wars going on in the Aegean at the time--and w ...more

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Sep 08, 2008 Erik Graff rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Recommends it for: everyone

Recommended to Erik by: Harold Kintner

Shelves: history

For over three years I was a history major at Grinnell College. In the junior year only one course requirement remained, historiography, a course taught by only one faculty member. That was fine by me until we got to Augustine's City of God which, at the time, I thought was absolutely crazy and unreadable (I've since read it). Having almost completed the requirements for a religion degree as well by then, I switched majors and graduated on schedule.

Although Augustine was unsupportable, I very mu ...more

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Feb 24, 2017 Caroline rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Shelves: philip-ward-500-books, classical, 2015-plan, 2016-plan, 2017-plan, history

But none of these allowed either wealth with its prospect of future enjoyment to unnerve his spirit, or poverty with its hope of a day of freedom and riches to tempt him to shrink from danger. No, holding that vengeance upon their enemies was more to be desired than any personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to accept the risk, to make sure of their vengeance and to let their wishes wait; and while committing to hope the uncertainty of

But none of these allowed either wealth with its prospect of future enjoyment to unnerve his spirit, or poverty with its hope of a day of freedom and riches to tempt him to shrink from danger. No, holding that vengeance upon their enemies was more to be desired than any personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to accept the risk, to make sure of their vengeance and to let their wishes wait; and while committing to hope the uncertainty of final success, in the business before them they thought fit to act boldly and trust in themselves. Thus choosing to die resisting, rather than to live submitting, they fled only from dishonor, but met danger face to face, and after one brief moment, while at the summit of their fortune, left behind them not their fear, but their glory.

From The funeral oration of Pericles, once read by generation upon generation of European and American schoolboys who went on to become leader of their nations. No longer. As one watches the two great nations of Athens and Sparta destroy themselves fighting each other, one wishes everyone still studied Thucydides before they voted on members of Congress, or voted as Congressmen about whether to engage in squabbles around the world. This is not to say the United States should retreat to 19th century isolationism, but that it should ask hard questions before deciding whether to act, and think ahead about how to follow up victories and defeats in foreign countries.

Thucydides covers so vast a theater of war, with so many players, over twenty-six years (plus prologue) that it’s impossible to summarize it. Suffice it to say that the train-wreck spectacle is riveting, and his prose magisterial. I really wish I had read this decades ago. It makes one consider subsequent history in a whole new light. The speeches are stupendous for both eloquence and rhetoric, as you watch various populations be manipulated or ignore wise advice.

Also, I need to note that I read the Landmark Thucydides edited by Robert B. Strassler. Accept no substitutes. The notes and maps are fabulous. Strassler understands that a reader is most likely going to tackle this over several weeks, and won’t retain all the details from day to day. So he inserts very repetitive maps on almost every page so that the information you need is right in front of your face. You don’t have to flip wildly back twenty or thirty pages trying to figure out where Miletus or Abydos is. The side margins are full of helpful paragraph numbering and dates, along with a summary of every paragraph’s content/action. A running banner across the top of each page gives date, location and topic. Notes at the bottom of each page link text names to map locations and remind the reader with references to past events. Several appendices in the back describe ground and naval military procedures, governments, religious beliefs, monetary values, dates, etc.

Not a light undertaking, but well well worth the effort. ...more

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Oct 31, 2016 Dani Rose rated it really liked it

Shelves: classics-and-egyptology

Not quite as fun to read as Herodotus' eccentric Histories, but still an important primary source. I could get through it quite well with my limited knowledge of Greek history and the Peloponnesian War, but I would recommend brushing up for context. Also the Jowlett translation from 1881 (which can be found on Perseus online) is the clearest and easiest to follow. ...more

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Sep 15, 2018 Gary Beauregard Bottomley rated it it was amazing

‘Spartan dogs!, Turkish Taffy’, I’ve always wanted to use that line from Woody Allen’s Japanese redubbed into English movie ‘What’s Up Tiger Lilly’. Now the Spartan’s really aren’t dogs and taffy and Turkey have nothing to do with this book, but this book ranks as one of the greatest books ever written, and it’s clear that the Spartan’s were more than just laconic warriors and Athenians might have been lovers of wisdom but were also lovers of hegemonic domination.

It is not necessary to understa ‘Spartan dogs!, Turkish Taffy’, I’ve always wanted to use that line from Woody Allen’s Japanese redubbed into English movie ‘What’s Up Tiger Lilly’. Now the Spartan’s really aren’t dogs and taffy and Turkey have nothing to do with this book, but this book ranks as one of the greatest books ever written, and it’s clear that the Spartan’s were more than just laconic warriors and Athenians might have been lovers of wisdom but were also lovers of hegemonic domination.

It is not necessary to understand all the players, the interlocking rivalries or the specifics as they are brilliantly told in this war chronicle. The book takes the particular and connects them to the universal, truths across time. What is justice, what is deserving of our time or what makes the good? All this is laid out in this story telling about the war and the often fatal hubris of humans and what motivates us as human beings.

This book surprised me. I was reluctant to try it because I thought it was going to be a boring telling of war and its inner details. I was wrong. Yes, it does have actual war details but that is only a prelude in order to let the narrative allow the author to get at the universal truth of discovering our meaning of being human, and yes, even why we choose to fight and go to war. (‘Only an admiral can lose a war in a day’)!

I would bet Abraham Lincoln read this book and understood it beyond a story of just the war itself. Pericles funeral oration as dramatized in this book is clearly as moving and meaningful as the Gettysburg Address and probably influenced Lincoln’s thought on sacrificing a life for the sake of one's country, and shows that in each cohort even separated by over 2000 years of time that what we want from life and what matters has a constancy embedded within it and that we as humans are willing to give all for a belief that transcends the material. Each oration has within it the reason why humans will give the ultimate for a cause (ideology), a person (family) or their country (culture). (There are actually shades of ‘God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son in order for you to have eternal life’, within both orations. That just shows that our meaning often lies within us from the value that we place on our own self dignity or self worth).

The description of the plague in Athens in 429 B.C.E. is unlike anything I’ve read elsewhere. History is often best told by observation. Thucydides understands why it mattered and describes the particular while providing the context inside the web of moving parts which make up history and determine the future. I wonder what would have happened to world history if Athens was not devastated with a plague.

Regarding the siege of Syracuse I was totally enraptured by the unfolding of the events. As with most moderns, I had no idea who was going to win the battle and couldn’t wait to find out. The story telling was that good, no, it was better than good, it was great!

But, I haven’t even hinted at the best part of the book. The speeches and the motivations that key players use to rationalize their reasoning. Life is complex and we are easily misled by the framing of the arguments. As an objective observer because of the remoteness of time, I would listen to the first speaker give his piece and think ‘his arguments are irrefutable’, then the contra argument was made and I would think the same. Should we attack, should we not, or should we kill every single man woman and child in the defeated city in order to send a message. The same arguments are used today and politicians always love to ‘send a message’ by projecting strength so the others don’t perceive us as weak. ‘The more things change, the more they remain the same’.

‘Silence and order’ is what the sailors were told before their sea battle. That is what they were told they needed in order to survive. In life ‘silence and order’ serve us well. Two words to describe our modern day perceptions of ancient Spartans: silence and order, also ‘silence and order’ could be a two word definition for ‘stoic’. Conversely, two thoughts to describe our modern day perceptions of ancient Athenians and also serve us well for life: ‘speak and act as an individual’, also a two thought definition for ‘epicurean’.

This book transcends the story that is being told. For those who don’t like it, or think it has no relevance with today, the problem is with them not the book. This is a rare book for which I would recommend to anybody because of the truths that abound within it. This book precedes Plato’s Republic, but one can’t help feeling the echo from this book intentionally reverberating within ‘The Republic’. At least Plato’s contemporary readers would have seen the similarities within this book and would have understood the intentional connections. ...more

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Jan 05, 2010 Clif Hostetler rated it liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: history

Thucydides sounds surprisingly modern for a writer who lived 2,400 years ago. He provides a record of over 21 years in strict chronological order and describes the interests of the two sides with more objective fairness than can be expected today from modern journalists (especially the TV kind). He mentions in the middle of the book that he spent 20 years away from Athens in exile, so that may explain why he can describe the non-Athenian view with such poignancy.

"I lived through the whole of it ...more

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Nov 01, 2019 Felix rated it really liked it

Shelves: greek, classical-period, history

What a valuable historical source this is! It has to be placed a little higher even than historians like Tacitus and Livy (who probably had a better idea of what they were doing, given that that they were working as historians in an exisiting field, rather than pretty much creating the field as they went along). There's something quite strange reading about these events from the perspective of someone who doesn't simply want to record history, but also to mention their own part in making it. I s What a valuable historical source this is! It has to be placed a little higher even than historians like Tacitus and Livy (who probably had a better idea of what they were doing, given that that they were working as historians in an exisiting field, rather than pretty much creating the field as they went along). There's something quite strange reading about these events from the perspective of someone who doesn't simply want to record history, but also to mention their own part in making it. I still have to remind myself: Thucydides really lived through these events, and played a role in many of them.

The party opposed to the traitors were sufficiently strong in number to prevent the immediate opening of the gates, and with the assistance of the general Eucles (who was there from Athens to protect the place) they sent for help to the other general in the Thraceward region, Thucydides the son of Olorus, the author of this history. He was at Thasos, an island colonized from Paros, about half a day’s sail from Amphipolis. As soon as he received the message he sailed at full speed with the seven ships at his disposal, wanting to reach Amphipolis, if possible, before any move to surrender the city, or, failing that, to secure Eïon.

And that is probably a pretty indicative passage in terms of the style of this text. Yes, it's dry. But Thucydides is not entirely without skill as a story-teller. If you are thinking about reading this, you shouldn't let the lack of liveliness put you off. Thucydides is not a bad writer. In fact, his analysis is often what makes this text enjoyable. Not only was he an eye-witness to events, he was also a knowledgable strategist in and of himself, and could often break down why things went wrong.

They did not have the same opportunity to learn the enemy password, as the Syracusans, getting the better of the battle and keeping their forces concentrated, had less difficulty in recognizing their own side. The result was that if a superior force of Athenians encountered a group of enemy, the enemy could get away by knowing the Athenian password, whereas the other way round, if the Athenians could not respond when challenged for the password, they were killed. But nothing did greater harm than the confusion caused by the singing of the paean, which had a virtually identical sound on both sides. Whenever the Argives, Corcyraeans, or other Dorian contingents on the Athenian side raised their paean, the effect was to frighten the Athenians just as much as the enemy’s paeans.

But yes, it's a comendable text. It's not easy to imagine what our knowledge of the period would look like without it. No doubt, our knowledge of the war would be enormously impoverished. ...more

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May 27, 2018 Bogdan Raț rated it really liked it · review of another edition

Masterwork

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Jun 30, 2020 Jacob Aitken rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Shelves: hellenism, the-western-canon

This is the best book on geopolitics ever written. It’s very difficult, too. His style isn’t that difficult and the subject matter is straightforward. The difficulty, as the school of Leo Strauss would later point out, is a dialectic between a surface reading and a deeper reading.

Part of the book’s popularity is the parallel to the American Empire, prompting such devices as a “Thucydides Trap.” Will American overextend itself and force China to attack it? I think that line of questioning i ...more

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Apr 03, 2013 Marc rated it it was ok · review of another edition

Shelves: ancient-greece

Tremendously important book, from a historical point of view. But to be honest: Thucydides brings a boring story: he just gives a sequence of facts; no dramatic depth, no psychological dimension in the speeches, emphasis on the military events.
I also was a bit disappointed by his so-called objectivity: Book 1 is slightly anti-Athenian (imperialism), book 2 light pro-Athenian (Pericles). In comparison with Herodotus for me Thucydides is a little step back, because at least Herodotus gave differen ...more

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Jul 15, 2019 Catherine Berry rated it liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: history

Let it first be said, in reference to that discipline involving the examination of events which, though passed, may have relevance to, or lessons for, the current era, or even perhaps future eras, that it is my primary interest and avocation to extend my own understanding of the various persons -- statesmen, generals, men of wealth and influence, and others -- who contributed to the origin and who shaped the outcome of these events; and also, when I may reasonably do so, to draw whatever general Let it first be said, in reference to that discipline involving the examination of events which, though passed, may have relevance to, or lessons for, the current era, or even perhaps future eras, that it is my primary interest and avocation to extend my own understanding of the various persons -- statesmen, generals, men of wealth and influence, and others -- who contributed to the origin and who shaped the outcome of these events; and also, when I may reasonably do so, to draw whatever general conclusions from such accounts as may, in the course of time, prove useful to me in better understanding my own life, the times in which I live, and those other times to which my attention might be applied with similar intent.

That, my friends, is my attempt to share my own experience of how Thucydides writes. He beats even Hegel on the "average number of clauses per sentence" metric. He digresses within his digressions. He qualifies his qualifiers. What's more, in the translator's introduction, that worthy artisan confirms with some chagrin that all of this is there in the original Greek; that in fact two millennia of critical analyses have failed to untangle in any satisfactory way some of Thucydides' more ambitious grammatical performance art.

Put simply, this book was a long, hard slog. As an avid student of history, I had been meaning to read this seminal work by the Father of History for decades, and in fact I am very glad I did so -- but wow, that was a lot of work. Compounding the complexity of the style is the tendency of the text to drop into pages of excruciatingly boring lists of people and places with barely a linking action verb to be found between them. I very often had the experience of having my eyes reach the bottom of a page, only to sheepishly realize that I had actually registered none of what I had "read" there. I will freely admit that I revived the skimming skills I last used regularly in college in order to finish the book before the sun reaches its red-giant phase.

And again, all that being said, I am glad I read this. For when Thucydides takes a break from listing every commander in a minor battle or the fleet sizes of every city in the Aegean, he delivers wonderful, brilliantly worded insights into eternal truths of politics, war, and society. He is not often a "poetic" author, but his wrenching, carefully escalating description of the catastrophic Plague of Athens broke my heart. The speeches quoted (and, he admits, reconstructed) from various luminaries are riveting, brilliantly worded, and full of examples of rhetoric at its most finely honed. That they all sound the same, and thus very likely all sound like Thucydides, is a small cavil indeed.

Being a great admirer of Tides of War, a carefully researched historical novel set during the same period addressed by Thucydides, I was especially interested in seeing Thucydides' portrayal of Alcibiades, a remarkable man who managed during his tumultuous life to lead and betray most of the major parties in the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides' account was (of course) sparser than Pressfield's and rather jumbled, but it captured the essence of this complex figure. I came away with a fresh appreciation for both authors.

For all its faults (which are examined at length in the introduction), this work stands as the first attempt to write history in the modern mode -- analytical, dispassionate, and evidence-based. It falls far short of those goals in countless ways, but to even conceive of this task in 400 BCE is evidence of genius. His successes are far more remarkable and important than his failures. Despite the many times this book came close to being bounced off the far wall of my living room, I am happy that I took the time and effort to read it. If you have the same interests and stamina as I, you may find the same. Otherwise, stick to Pressfield. Or Wikipedia. ...more

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Dec 23, 2019 An Idler rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

A fantastic achievement of history and common grace wisdom.

Thucydides is famous for his unornamented style, but it's far from dull. The Peloponnesian War brims with drama, grandeur, tragedy, horror, and heroism. It's not without the occasional longueur - Homer nods, and Thucydides metaphorically naps during pages of diplomatic maneuvering and abortive revolts. That's a small price to pay for the astounding orations (the Funeral Oration, but also the Melian Dialogue and a dozen others), narrative ...more

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May 14, 2012 Karl H. rated it liked it · review of another edition

The Peloponnesian War was, to say the least, a challenging read for me. Thucydides is writing about a war that happened thousands of years ago, in a completely different culture, in an area where I don't know the geography, between a bunch of states that no longer exist. Oh yes, and there is no unified dating system at the time either. It’s also clear from reading the Peloponnesian War that Thucydides was an aspiring general, not an aspiring poet. One review I encountered while searching for a d The Peloponnesian War was, to say the least, a challenging read for me. Thucydides is writing about a war that happened thousands of years ago, in a completely different culture, in an area where I don't know the geography, between a bunch of states that no longer exist. Oh yes, and there is no unified dating system at the time either. It’s also clear from reading the Peloponnesian War that Thucydides was an aspiring general, not an aspiring poet. One review I encountered while searching for a different translation stated that Thucydides “uses a style that might lead a reader to think that he deliberately was putting his readers through some kind of torture.” Well, torture might be putting too fine a word on it, but Thucydides sure doesn’t pamper his readers. He throws a barrage of names, places and generals at you, assuming that his readers are going to know where, what and who he is talking about. If you aren’t a classics scholar, you might not know, for instance, that the Lacedaemonians that Thucydides goes on and on about are just another name for the Spartans. He also jumps around from place to place so he can cover everything chronologically, and this makes following the locations of all the battles and generals tricky. I recommend that anyone who tries reading Thucydides to get a good critical edition with lots of footnotes, maps and as readable a translation as you can find. Blanco was who I wound up with, but there might be better versions out there.

Having not read Herodotus, I can’t properly say just how much of the historical discipline Thucydides invented. But I have read Homer, and I do think there’s an interesting comparison to be made there. Thucydides, after all, never mentions Herodotus directly, but he talks about Homer’s facts and figures at length. I think in many ways, Thucydides saw himself as embodying a factual, realistic vision of history in contrast to Homer (and presumably Herodotus, who wrote accounts of history down where the Gods showed up in battle). Homer was very poetic when he wrote that Helen’s was the “face that launched a thousand ships”, but Thycudides notes that for one Agamemnon being the leader of the alliance probably had more to do with it, and for two the number one thousand seems dreadfully inflated.

In Homer, war is treated as kind of a crapshoot that comes down to emotional intensity, the favor of the Gods, and the justice of the cause. Greece is destined to win the Trojan War because the stealing of Helen was a violation of hospitality, so the majority of Gods decree it to be so. Achilles fights up to the walls of Troy because he’s super angry, not because he came up with some clever stratagem. Ajax might be kicking butt, but if suddenly Zeus comes down and says “Nope, not today” the Trojans are going to win. In Homer, it’s the favor of the Gods that makes all the difference. The course of events is determined by the gods. And in a fine tradition leading to the present day, people continue to feel that right makes might.

Thucydides was probably the first to react to the notion that the side that was more just would be favored by the Gods and win. It’s pretty astonishing in that context to read the debate between Athens and the island of Melos which Athens plans to conquer. Melos complains that the invasion of Athens is unjust and that the gods will punish the Athenians. Athens responds “Yeah, it’s unjust. So what? Who cares about justice? The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Oh and by the way, the gods aren’t going to fly down and help you guys.” And then Athens steamrolls the colony, kills off all the men and sells the women into slavery. Every decision is made as part of a rational calculus of interests. This rational, realist approach is also reflected in how Thucydides describes battle. For him, it’s not primarily about the emotions of the combatants and the will of the Gods. It’s all about reason and strategy- who has the high ground, who outflanks who, who has retrofitted their ships to better fight in a harbor.

The question of whether or not Thucydides actually is the 100% factual rational historian he presents himself as really only occurred to me near the end of the text. Were the Athenians really so cynically frank about their motives? After all, even the most bellicose dictators today at least come up with some meager justification for their actions, why not Athens? Why is it that Thycudides didn’t cite his sources when apparently Herodotus did? Are those long speeches actually verbatim (or near it) as Thycudides claims, or was Thycudides taking a bit of poetic license himself by amalgamating different thoughts, speeches and points that were made over the course of a debate? And though decisions are often made based on reason, its not like people are emotionless robots- some emotion and irrational behavior sneaks in there too.

I admit that I found Thucydides tough going, and honestly, I don’t know if I learned a ton about the Peloponnesian War, but I wouldn’t say it was completely a waste of time. Reading it inspired a lot of thought, and showed me a bit about where some of our frames and ideas in political thought and history came from. Just don't expect any poetry.
...more

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Jul 23, 2011 David Sarkies rated it it was amazing

Recommends it for: History buffs

Recommended to David by: My university

Shelves: history

The story of a military disaster
20 July 2010

I really liked this book, but then I generally really like books that deal with ancient history and are a retelling of events that were beyond our lifetimes, such as this one. This book, though incomplete (namely because the author died before he could finish it) tells of a war between the rival Greek city states of Athens and Sparta. I could (and would like to) write a thesis on this book, but I will stick to my main theme, and that is the invasion o ...more

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Aug 06, 2012 Nate Huston rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Fine. I nerded out on this one too. I really liked it. Might I suggest, however, that it is exceedingly beneficial (it was to me, at least) to take a look at Donald Kagan's lectures on the same subject. You can view them or download them at http://oyc.yale.edu/classics/clcv-205.... Lectures 18-21.

Anyhow, while the detail with which Thucydides recounts some of the battles can be tedious at times(though perhaps not to a military historian), the subject matter dealt with is timeless. Pericles's fun ...more

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Jul 31, 2009 Jack rated it it was amazing

Shelves: classic-literature, 2016-classics, ancient-cultures, classics-of-antiquity, history, professional-military-education

One on the reading bucket list down. A must for the ancient world. Sparta versus Athens. Post Thermopylae history is primarily known because of Thucydides. I am still amazed that this history made it to us over the centuries. I am very happy I picked this one up and finally finished it off.

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About Thucydides

Thucydides

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Thucydides (c. 460 B.C. – c. 395 B.C.) (Greek Θουκυδίδης, Thoukydídēs) was a Greek historian and author of the History of the Peloponnesian War, which recounts the 5th century B.C. war between Sparta and Athens to the year 411 B.C. Thucydides has been dubbed the father of "scientific history" due to his strict standards of evidence-gathering and analysis in terms of cause and effect without refere ...more

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