Cleo’s Comments (group member since Apr 12, 2016)

Cleo’s comments from the Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages group.

Haaze wrote: "Agamemnon Arrives:

So many amazing and powerful phrases within the Lattimore translation:

.."

I just LOVE Lattimore's translations (have I said that before ;-) ). I can appreciate Morshead's, but for me, they don't come close.

Haaze wrote: "It is interesting how one can read it both ways. What do you think?..."

If you don't know the story, it could be read both ways. But the Greek audience would have been intimately familiar with the story. That very familiarity would make Clytemnestra's words even more chilling. They would know what Clytemnestra had actually done and her intentions. To have her then pretend to respect and honour her husband would have been appalling.

I've noticed when I read Greek literature, the Greeks have no respect for "spoilers". ;-)

Haaze wrote: "I came across this site which is quite inspiring and makes me linger. A great resource!
http://hour25.heroesx.chs.harvard.edu/

Including a number of texts
http://hour25.heroesx.chs.harvard.edu......"

Oh my goodness, they have a book club! How could you do this to me, Haaze? ;-)

Deanna wrote: "Cleo--I would suggest going for coffee, but my Grandma is having surgery then, and will be helping her around the house."

Aw, that's too bad. I might be down there again in spring, so perhaps then!

Deanna wrote: "I'm from Tacoma, Washington ....."

BTW, I'm about 4 hours away from you north of the border. I'm actually going to be down your way the first weekend in October for my daughter's softball tournament. :-)

Wow, you are much more organized that I am, Deanna. I actually would want to do what you are planning, I just don't have the time.

How do you plan to set up your blog? As journaling as you read or more like a final post?

I'm looking forward to your book lists!

Haaze wrote: "I love reading about perspectives on translation. I, too, gravitate towards Lattimore in Homer...."

I am very translation-picky in certain languages and Greek is one of them, probably because it is so beautiful and deep and communicates so much. Lattimore beats them all IMO, even though sometimes the translation can sound a little awkward to our English ears --- but the beauty and grandeur are always there.

C.S. Lewis has an essay that deals with the problem(s) of Fitzgerald's translations. He's rather kind with his criticism but nevertheless, his view is interesting.

Haaze wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Do you read Greek? Ancient Greek has always been on my wish list although it has lower priority than a number of other languages. ..."

I can read a little ancient Greek, but a very little. ;-) I have a great beginning program if you're really interested. And I'm always looking for a learning buddy to keep me on track. I tend to pull it out, study it for a short time, then life gets in the way and it sits there. But the translation came from the internet from a Classics professor. I like "toils" best.

Haaze wrote: "Like you wrote previously failing the war effort or to kill his daughter are his two choices, but the choice seems to transform him to something that is less than human. In my mind, I recall the beginning of the Iliad when Agamemnon is arguing with Achilles. Somehow Agamemnon felt less like a king in those verses. Perhaps he is losing his humanity/kingliness in this very moment as he proceeds with sacrificing his daughter? An aspect to curse his life for the next ten years and beyond...."

A really good point, Haaze, and interesting how you link the two up. Agamemnon's behaviour in The Iliad has always surprised me (as has Odysseus' in The Odyssey, but that's another story). And Agaememnon's house is already under a previous curse that goes back to the family's founder, Tantalus, and adds another element to the play. Offending the gods, either by attempting to deceive them into eating the flesh of his son, Pelops, or by endeavouring to plunder nectar and ambrosia from the gods (depending on the story version), Tantalus was punished in the Underworld by being eternally inflicted with a raging hunger and thirst. Pelops was resurrected by the gods, but eventually incurred a curse by killing his desired bride's father and fleeing with the girl, Hippodamia. An attempted rape of the girl by Myrtilus ensued, and when Pelops threw him from a cliff, he cursed Pelops. The hereditary nature of the curse resulted in the killing of children by their parents and vice versa, a destroying of the whole family from within.

Haaze wrote: "I compared three different translations and have a definite favorite. I am curious what you think about these examples and how translation plays a role in the impressions of the reader. I feel as i..."

Thanks for the comparison, Haaze. I am very familiar with Lattimore but hadn't read translations from the other two before.

I definitely prefer Lattimore above all others. His wording is so beautiful and he is supposed to have the best balance of not only sticking as closely as possible to the original Greek, but also sounding like Homer (which is hard to do, so if he manages to do a superb job translating Homer, the Greek dramatists must have been easier for him). At one time, I'd stumbled upon an article that investigated the difficulty of translating Homer. Even consonants and vowels are employed to give a feeling of rolling waves, thundering horses, etc. and Lattimore is the best at attempting this.

My forum friend who use to read ancient Greek has this to say about the Homeric translations:

"For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original. I wish I had maintained my Greek, because the original is always better... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love.

Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key.

The Fagles translations repulse me. They are so colloquial, so far from Homeric that they feel more like modern adaptations than translations.

Lombardo takes even more liberties with the text - imho this is definitely more of an adaptation than a translation.

For a very literal translation (most useful if you are trying to translate Homer yourself) the Loeb editions have facing English and Greek pages and follows the word order of each Greek line as closely as possible - I wouldn't use it as a primary text, but it is a neat supplement. (Ex: "The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son Achilles," )

Some people like the Rieu prose translations, and I guess they could serve as an intro to Homer, but I wouldn't use them.

Mandlebaum has a slightly clunky translation of the Odyssey - he is my translator of choice for Dante (though it was a hard choice!), but not for Homer... but, unlike most of the others it *is* a reasonably reliable translation, as I recall.

Pope's translations are an older version of what Fagles has done - an adaptation in the "translator's" own style.. pretty, but not Homer... but, imo, less grating than Fagles and less ornate than Fitzgerald... though Fitzgerald is a more reliable translator.

Butler has prose translations of Homer... pedestrian is the adjective I would apply to them. Rieu's has a little more flavor, but Butler's is sold and straightforward.... not a version I would choose, but there isn't anything *wrong* with it...

Chapman's translation is a classic in its own right, but one I would read for itself not for Homer...

Those are all of the translations I have read... or at least can remember off hand ..."

Haaze wrote: "I'm percolating the words of the nightwatchman as well as the choral sequence in the very beginning of the play...."

Isn't it amazing? The watchman's first line is brilliant and sets the tone for the whole play:

θεοὺς μὲν αἰτῶ τῶνδ᾽ ἀπαλλαγὴν πόνων

"I ask the gods for respite from these pains/toils/difficult endeavors .."

He also sets up keys points such as something is wrong in the palace, particularly with Clytemnestra and he also directs our attention to the oikos or house of Agamemnon. Since oikos can mean either "house" or "family", it takes on a double meaning in this case of not only unrest in the house but also the family.

The journey to Troy was sanctioned by Zeus therefore Agamemnon must obey. There are versions of the sacrifice of Iphigenia that say that Agamemnon had angered Artemis and that was the reason for the sacrifice. However in Aeschylus' version, she is not angered by Agamemnon but instead her anger is blamed on an omen (that two eagles killed a pregnant rabbit). Sounds dopey, doesn't it? Calchus says the Greeks will sack Troy, so it's believed that the pregnant rabbit represents Troy (the innocent women and children) and the two eagles Agamemnon and Menelaus. So in effect, she is punishing Agamemnon for what he will do and requiring him to show the ruthlessness and cruelty he will have to show at Troy. He is in an agonizing position because this act is not brought on by anything he's done yet; he's innocent but he must follow his moral duties: 1. he must avenge Paris' actions as a duty to his household and 2. he has a duty to protect his child as a father. One he had to violate to complete the other.

Hi Deanna and welcome to the group! I've read all of Don Quixote and was actually going to start reading it again in August, but decided I have too much on the go. I could probably jump into a discussion too.

I'm looking forward to your posts on your blog. So thrilling to have another WEM-er to follow!

Only if you've read them, and I'm not discussing by myself. ;-)

IMO, I think it was a mistake to separate the plays. Aeschylus is tracing a very important "metamorphosis" in Greek culture and the three plays are necessary to understand it. With Sophocles' Theban trilogy, on the other hand, I think the plays can be read in isolation if one chooses.

Kenia wrote: "Hey Cleo! I finished The Oresteia back in July when you were reffing the World Softball Championships. Here's the link to the A..."

But isn't that just Agamemnon? What about The Libation Bearers and Eumenides?

Kenia wrote: "Haaze, I've just started to read Sophocles' Theban Plays. I will begin a discussion thread for it now--as you've noticed, there isn't a thread for it yet. ;-)

But Sandy makes a good point about th..."

Weren't you on the Oresteia? I'm confused ... ! :-?

Hey, Haaze! Great to see you here! Can't wait to start reading some books with you!

Glad to see that you're still in book-land, Kenia!! I hope the enjoyment is outweighing the stress of buying a new home. :-)

I am still up for discussion on Oedipus Rex but I was waiting until you finished. No rush. I've already read it, and reviewed it, so it is reasonably fresh in my mind.

My summer was awesome. I was able to read very little but I made some new friends, and was able to visit with some old ones. It was a summer full of people and not so full of books, but making and re-making those connections was really lovely!

Right now I'm reading Jane Eyre, The Well at the World's End, The Brothers Karamazov, How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease, The Faerie Queene, and I know not what!! Yikes! I need to finish a few to get myself out of reading-panic-mode and back to sanity!

Ooo, keep posting, Sandy. It's fascinating to share in what you're learning! :-)

That's rotten news about your eyes, Sandy. I really hope that the doctors can do something to help you. Do you read mainly on a reader? I think my basic Kindle is a little easier on my eyes than print, but I'm not sure about the fancier ones, and especially computer or IPad screens. We were at a softball championship this past week and the scoreboards were playing havoc with some people who were wearing glasses. Apparently the LED lights can really affect your vision in a very negative way.

Hmmm ..... there is so little known about Homer that I'm surprised that scholars can even place him. Some wonder if he even existed. Herodotus on the other hand, is more easy to place. My historical reading, and in fact any reading at all, has really dropped off. I'm pretty busy until mid-August, but then I have a two week vacation and plan to read through most of it.

Hi Julie! It's wonderful to meet another reader with an impossibly long TBR list! I look forward to your comments in the group! :-)

I would love to discuss this with you, Kenia, but I've just started scoring for the World Softball Championships. I'm going from morning until night through to Jul 24th. After that I'll be back to gab away. Right now my brain is like a fried meatball. ;-)

Ah, okay, you're on it. I noticed the member posted similar comments in 5 other groups, so I just assumed ........ It's my moderator's hat coming on ...... I'll take it off now ...... ;-)