Cleo’s Comments (group member since Apr 12, 2016)

Cleo’s comments from the Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages group.

What a great post, Kenia! I know exactly how you feel. Perhaps when we have more time, we can pick a book and set a schedule to really discuss as we go through it. I've seen your very thoughtful and in-depth blog posts and it would be nice to have that here, or at least once in a while. But time is the key word, of which it seems we have little of presently! :-Z

I've been mostly absent lately so sorry! I had a bad biking accident and ended up with a badly broken thumb, a sprained wrist (the other hand), scrapes and bruises and a doozy of a concussion, so I've supposed to have been avoiding reading, T.V. and the computer. I just got my cast off today, so I hope to get some traction soon and be back to reading!

I'd be interested in Sappho and perhaps Zeno. I actually would interested in all of them, however it would take me off track from my classics list. I'm entering a new phase of life and with work and a new food blog I started, I'm finding that I have less time for reading. I'm determined to work that time back in, but right now it's a work-in-progress. So we'll see .... I'm hopeful .....

If we could skip over the optional pre-400 BC books, we could get to Aristotle sooner. Just sayin' 'cause he's on my list. ;-)

Thanks, all. I was wondering if Kenia posted a specific 2018 list but I see that there are a number of non TWEM books coming up on her main list.

Personally I don't mind reading along with Kenia as she goes. I'm going to have already read some of the books she's yet to get to and I can jump into the discussion. Some of the non-TWEM books she has listened I'm interested in, and a few I'm not so there, I'd join when interested.

I am planning to read Aristotle at some point, so it would sure be nice to have company!

In any case, I'm fine to go along with whatever is decided. I'm reading The Republic right now and have finished Thucydides, so that would make up a bunch of reading for Kenia's 2018. As I said, I still have to read Medea. :-Z

Where did you post your list? I can take a look at it and see if I can jump in on some reads or if I've read anything recently to comment.

For me, it would depend if the books are in the classic genre, or not. If they are, I would choose option "c" and simply add a more general description to the group ..... perhaps something like The Chronological Well Educated Mind and Much More (terrible name, but you understand what I mean). Then people can participate if the read intrigues them, or choose not to.

Keep in mind, this advice comes from someone who meant to read Medea, who still intends to read Medea but has been sidetracked by another blog venture. Sigh! I need to get my reading back in balance. But I know you of all people understand that challenge!

Looking forward to seeing your list!

Tracey wrote: " In days gone by when the educated could read ancient Greek and Latin they didn't have this problem. Things definitely get lost in translation.
I have just read The Endless Steppe: Growing Up in Siberia. ..."

I think it depends on your goal. If you want to get as close to Homer as possible, read Lattimore; Lattimore used to be (or perhaps still is) the scholarly go-to. If you need a little bit of help understanding it, one could go with a more modernized version. I've even recommended Fagles (whose translation I don't like at all) for high school students, just to get their feet wet. Fagles actually does a decent "adaptation" of the poems, I just wouldn't feel like I'd actually read Homer.

Tracey wrote: "I have a question for anyone/everyone:

What are the best editions of The Iliad and The Odyssey ?

There are several out there and I would like to buy my own copies.
Thanks"

Lattimore all the way, but I do think after reading Lattimore, it can be enlightening to read other translations as well. I would stay away from Butler (who seemed to think he knew more about the poems than Homer) and Fagles.

Here is my go-to quote about some of the translations from a person who could read in ancient Greek and read all of them (and who's very clever too, I might add!):

For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original. I wish I had maintained my Greek, because the original is always better... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love.

Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key.

The Fagles translations repulse me. They are so colloquial, so far from Homeric that they feel more like modern adaptations than translations.

Lombardo takes even more liberties with the text - imho this is definitely more of an adaptation than a translation.

For a very literal translation (most useful if you are trying to translate Homer yourself) the Loeb editions have facing English and Greek pages and follows the word order of each Greek line as closely as possible - I wouldn't use it as a primary text, but it is a neat supplement. (Ex: "The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son Achilles," )

Some people like the Rieu prose translations, and I guess they could serve as an intro to Homer, but I wouldn't use them.

Mandlebaum has a slightly clunky translation of the Odyssey - he is my translator of choice for Dante (though it was a hard choice!), but not for Homer... but, unlike most of the others it *is* a reasonably reliable translation, as I recall.

Pope's translations are an older version of what Fagles has done - an adaptation in the "translator's" own style.. pretty, but not Homer... but, imo, less grating than Fagles and less ornate than Fitzgerald... though Fitzgerald is a more reliable translator.

Butler has prose translations of Homer... pedestrian is the adjective I would apply to them. Rieu's has a little more flavor, but Butler's is sold and straightforward.... not a version I would choose, but there isn't anything *wrong* with it...

Chapman's translation is a classic in its own right, but one I would read for itself not for Homer...

Those are all of the translations I have read... or at least can remember off hand .....

Hope that helps! :-)

Tracey wrote: "Cleo wrote: "You're so lucky to have been able to see it! No, I'm on the West Coast of Canada. I initially tried the EdX MOOCs platform but I found the courses sometimes a slight bit indoctrination..."

Really?! I was just in Calgary, and two weeks before that drove to Regina and back. I loved meeting the people in the prairies! I found them more friendly, relaxed and polite than people in B.C. (generally, of course!) But we have better food! ;-)

I took my daughter on a trip through France and Italy when she was nine and we looked at art and ate good food and generally had a wonderful time. She still remembers every bit of it.

Hey Sandy, I hope you're doing well! Thanks for the feedback on the courses, as I've never taken any with Coursera and had been eyeing a few. I'm actually afraid to look at the moment as I have so much on my plate but I may pop over there and browse. Don't worry, I won't hold you partly responsible for any ill-conceived or impulsive signing up! LOL! ;-)

You're so lucky to have been able to see it! No, I'm on the West Coast of Canada. I initially tried the EdX MOOCs platform but I found the courses sometimes a slight bit indoctrinational (is that a word?! :) ) The Future Learn courses give you the information and allow you to think for yourself. I really like them and wish I had the time to do more of them.

I've taken the Hadrian's Wall course and others on Future Learn. So far it's my favourite MOOC site.

Bill wrote: "This looks interesting:

History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, podcast and books.
https://historyofphilosophy.net/"

Sure does!

Such fun looking through your list, Tracey! I have a never-ending Shakespeare challenge going on my blog, so if you ever want to do a buddy-read, let me know. I need a push to get going on it again.

I own a good number of them, Tracey, but as you said, I wouldn't use them as a substitute for the book itself. For example, I read one of their commentaries on Beowulf and believe they missed a good amount of what the poem reveals. However, I'm listening to one on Plato's Republic now (reading the book part first, then listening to the lecture) and it's helped either bring a few things to light or to expand some of the ideas. My favourite lecturer is Elizabeth Vandiver. Her courses are excellent!

Thanks for the link, Sandy! It looks great. I've bookmarked it. :-)

Οοο, looks like fun!

I bought this DVD of Antigone for my daughter when we homeschooled and it's very good.

Hi Nicole! So glad you found this group. I'm reading The Republic right now and am really enjoying it.

Kenia wrote: "Yes, that's an astute point about people recoiling from any sort of "deep" conversation in general... LoL"

No, in general, people do not like deep conversation. Sadly ...

Kendra wrote: "Orestes responded to committing murder. He had very mixed emotions...."

Yes! Absolutely! All through these plays are various dichotomies that pull both the characters and the reader in different directions. In Agamemnon, we remember his agonizing decision to kill his daughter, Iphegenia: he was protector of his household, therefore to kill his daughter would go against his moral obligation, but on the other hand, if he dismissed Artemis' command, he would have disobeyed Zeus which would have denoted a refusal to fulfill his familial accountability to his brother, an offence against his very being. He was caught in an inescapable situation.

Aeschylus is a master of presenting two sides to many problems, each making sense in their own way and leaving the reader often conflicted, but more importantly, thinking. It's what make these plays so great!

Hi Miranda! So glad you found this group! I would love to read through the Newberry list. Are you reading only the winners, or the honor books as well? Looking forward to you joining the discussions!