Jordan’s Comments (group member since Jan 18, 2015)

Jordan’s comments from the Return of the Rogue Readers group.

I like this choice, Ryan! I see a few different versions on Goodreads. Did you mean the standalone story or the collection with that title?

Danielle, your comment "It was a slow but progressive manner in which things changed," reminded me of something I learned about back when I was a psych major.

Kurt Lewin was a psychologist who pioneered some of the concepts that have become modern organizational psychology. His theories were the foundation for much of the modern management techniques and social/political tactics we see today. What came to mind specifically is his idea of how to change longstanding customs or traditions in a society.

He suggests that if you want to change the behavior of a group you can't just walk in and change it all at once, you have to do it slowly and that you should follow a formula. The behavior is considered "frozen," it's been that way for a long time and nobody wants to consider changing it. If you try to change it suddenly you will meet resistance and feedback, the scale of which is related to how old and deeply rooted the behavior is.

With any tradition or belief, people fall somewhere on a scale. I forget the term used for this, if there is one, so let's call it the Scale of Dedication. As an example let's use church goers. On one end you have the Very Dedicated, people who are passionately committed to the behavior to the point where it is the primary element of their identity (These people go to church twice a week, are involved in the youth groups, donate large portions of their time and money to the church, etc) , and on the other end you have the Less Dedicated, people who consider themselves a part of the group that supports this behavior, but they don't really care either way. (These are the people who go to church for family weddings and funerals, but never actually attend mass)

To "unfreeze" the behavior you have to approach it indirectly and gently in order to prevent people from realizing what your intention is and putting their guard up. You accomplish this by slowly starting to poke fun at the behavior, trivializing it, making it seem outdated and old, and asking questions that can't be clearly answered. This starts to weaken the position of the people on the Less Dedicated end of the scale. This process is slow and it can take years or decades, but like the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon, it will eventually wear away layers.

Once the layers are worn down enough the behavior/belief is now unfrozen, and can be more easily manipulated. There will still be those Very Dedicated people who will resist the change, but the majority of the people won't feel enough of an attachment to it to defend it anymore. Then more heavy handed policy changes can be made.

After the general opinion of the public is reshaped in the new form it is frozen again. This means new safeguards are built to keep someone else from unfreezing it. People might be told that this is "the best move for everyone" or they may even be fooled into thinking it's a return to some old, forgotten ideal from the glory days.

That's one way we end up with a society like that of Gilead in this novel.

Ryan, it's your turn to select our book!

Ryan, I will reply to your last message when I have more energy. I've been travelling quite a bit lately and I am exhausted. In the mean time, to keep things moving, I'd like to offer you the choice on our next book. I'll open the thread shortly.

Kila, those bastards did pay, but not in the extravagant fashion we hoped for. The epilogue mentions that the guy they suspect was the captains of our heroines house was outsted shortly after she left. Small comforts, I suppose.

The idea of "this could never happen" kinda struck me. It's easy for us to think it could never happen in America, but it does happen all over the world. Take the stone-age cultures of the Middle East, for example. Even in America, there are little hillbilly subcultures where women are forbidden from even wearing pants.

Marital rape only became illegal in the USA in 1993, and even then it was treated as an individual crime, separate from non-marital rape. Female genital mutilation is still widespread in Africa and the Middle East. Forced marriages still happen, even involving American citizens.

I realize these things aren't exactly what we experienced in The Handmaid's Tale, but they are worse, and they are still happening around us.

Amy, I like your idea for the ending. I'd have enjoyed seeing that world burn.

Kila, Trump also lacks the competency to accomplish what we read about in this novel. Another small comfort.

I imagine your boy Trump would feel right at home in this story, Ryan. :)

I finished the book the night before last and my final verdict was the same as yours, Kila. I enjoyed reading this book for the same reason I enjoyed Blood Meridian. Neither book was fun, upbeat, heartwarming, etc., but they told their story in a way that kept me interested. Neither book had a happy ending, or even a detailed ending, but they were written well enough that I didn't become enraged as I have with other stories that just sort of stop. (I'm looking at you, Stephen King) I would rather a book finish as The Handmaid's Tale did, leaving me wishing for more, than to ramble on for an extra hundred pages past the natural conclusion of the story.

Kila, it's funny to me that you had concern over the age of the book. I did too, but I mistakenly thought it was written decades earlier, maybe even a century. I think maybe my brain had some weird link between The Handmaid's Tale and The Canterbury Tales. Imagine my surprise when they started talking about cassette tapes and CDs.

I too enjoyed the epilogue. While the main story didn't have a "happy" ending, this gave us some closure and we got to see that things eventually changed for the better.

The gripping story aside, this book had a lot of wonderful language. Margaret Atwood has a way with words that really resonates with me. Multiple times throughout this book I stopped to replay a section of audio to hear a poetic sentence again. Here are a few that comes to mind:

“When we think of the past it's the beautiful things we pick out. We want to believe it was all like that.”

“I feel like cotton candy: sugar and air. Squeeze me and I’d turn into a small sickly damp wad of weeping pinky-red.”

“Sanity is a valuable possession; I hoard it the way people once hoarded money. I save it, so I will have enough, when the time comes.”

"Kick in the door, and what did I tell you? Caught in the act, sinfully Scrabbling. Quick, eat those words.”

"I marvel again at the nakedness of men's lives: the showers right out in the open, the body exposed for inspection and comparison, the public display of privates. What is it for? What purposes of reassurance does it serve? The flashing of a badge, look, everyone, all is in order, I belong here."

and lastly...

“You can think clearly only with your clothes on.”

A day late, but let the discussion begin!

I have approximately 10% of the book left, but so far it's been an interesting experience. I definitely cannot say it's been pleasant.

I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the club. We have a variety of personalities here, and this book was short enough that everyone should have read it.

I haven't yet, sorry! This has been a busy month. I'm actually in your town right now, Kila!

How about August 13th?

It's Kila's turn to choose! What would you like us to read this month?

Brandi, I'm sorry for the slow reply! I didn't notice you had posted.

Was the ending satisfactory to you? Did you enjoy it or was it too jarring?

I think all of the humans here are in agreement about Bill. Sorry Ryan! (although please feel free to open a discussion on the Kingkiller books)

What kind of books do you enjoy? Have you read any of our other selections?

This is a good discussion! I'm happy to see such enthusiastic responses.

Ryan, your post interests me for a few reasons. The idea that this might be a survival story crossed my mind at one point. In the early pages, I definitely felt that was a possibility.

I think your review of the characters is a bit harsh, but I can kinda see some of the logic. As I mentioned above, I felt like the characters were written deliberately as more realistic and natural instead of flawless and ideal. I read a lot of different kinds of books, including fantasy, and in many of those novels, I meet protagonists (and sometimes antagonists) that are nearly perfect in every way. In The Kingkiller Chronicle, for example, the main character is obnoxiously perfect. He is the best musician, the best swordsman, the best mage. He is so wonderful that when he applies to wizard college (knowing he is too young to enter) not only is he accepted, but the grand wizards pay him to be there! I stopped reading at this point in the novel and I'm not sure how it turns out for him, but if I had to guess I would say he goes on to become the president and win the Superbowl.

The main character of that book was boring and fake, in my opinion. Yes, I realize I am talking about a book where wizards roam the countryside, but even in that universe, this guy seemed bogus to me. In contrast, the characters in Before the Fall felt real enough to have been actual people I have met in life. In this novel, I consider that a strength.

As for your personal attachment to Bill Cunningham, I think we will have to agree to disagree here. I found his behavior to be self-serving, cruel, and free of any greater "morality."

Switching gears a bit. Kila, do you think JJ will have a good life with his aunt?

Danielle, Bill Cunningham felt more like Nancy Grace to me. You make a good point about Kipling being threatened. By that point in the story, I too thought it was going to be about some foreign bad guys killing off a loose end.

Amy, I can see why you thought terrorism. They did mention the bomb-proof office a few times. Plus, there was all the lead up about the daughter getting kidnapped and the Israeli guard. If it's any consolation to you, I think Kila is right that the aunt kicked her hipster husband out. After his interview with Cunningham, I doubt she will let him back in.

This was the first book I've read this year that wasn't nonfiction or didn't involve the supernatural somehow. It was a pleasant change of pace and I am glad you chose this, Brandi!

I enjoyed it too, and after reading your comment I think I agree about the copilot. In hindsight, the way the story ended felt a bit rushed. I wonder if the author had longer drafts previously, and was encouraged to trim it down, or if this was just how he felt the story should evolve.

I found the line "Since when does how a thing looks matter more than what it is?" particularly interesting. The way Before the Fall portrays the media as predatory animals that fly into a frenzy at the scent of blood mirrors my own opinion of them. I found Bill Cunningham to be the most repulsive character, by a mile, even when compared to the copilot who caused the crash.

Which characters did you guys like and dislike?

I had hoped the boy would play a larger role in the overall story, but I think his character arc was closer to reality than the kind of fairy tale ending we see so often in fiction. Now that I think of it, none of the characters were of the outstanding fairy tale variety. They all had realistic flaws and strengths, some more pronounced than others.

Kila, since you were the first to reply I'll start by asking you, but I am curious what everyone else thinks too. Up until the end of the hospital scenes, what direction did you think the book was going in?

Discussion time!

What did everyone think of this book?

We have a few new members to the club since the last book was chosen. Everyone say hello to Ryan, Brandi, and Kila! Or don't say hello, because you are all a bunch of awkward nerds. Either way, welcome new Rogue Readers!

Brandi was the first to respond to my offer to choose the new book and she has offered up Before The Fall by Noah Hawley. The book promises suspense, mystery, and intrigue. We will begin our discussion June 4th.

Three easter eggs I found. Catch any others?

http://imgur.com/a/DypQ9

Ryan, the show has started and it's AWESOME! So far, it's a very faithful adaptation of the book. Much of the dialog seems identical, but I lack the memory to say for sure. I was very pleased with it.

I understand what you are saying about how Wednesday may have fabricated the entire war. The "old gods" coexisted in American for hundreds or thousands of years. It may or may not have been peaceful, but there was no war. On the other hand, those gods are recognized by the people as gods. They were prayed to, sacrificed to, and worshiped. The American gods weren't recognized by the people as gods. Technology, Land, etc. Nobody burns incense in tribute to real estate, and I've never met a person who worships a high-tech device...

Wait, on second thought, there are the Apple acolytes...

I just watched the trailer and wanted to discuss it with everyone.


Things that look faithful to the books:

This Jake looks like Jake #2, with the drawings, school official, and the doorway house. I saw a flash of what looks like the demon from that house. I wonder if he will have Charlie the Choo Choo?

The Dark Tower and The Beams look to be physically present. There was some speculation that they would be metaphorical in this adaptation.

Jake and Roland are in a city that looks to be Lud, although I didn't hear Velcro Fly.

Hearing the gunslinger creed gave me goosebumps. That shot Roland makes serves well to show the uninitiated what his profession is.

Things that were changed:

No Eddie or Susana

Walter and the Crimson King seem to be rolled into one character.

Jake had to encourage Roland to seek the tower?!

I didn't chime in because I already know the motives of The Man in Black.

I replied to share this link, the official trailer of the film adaptation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjwfq...

Amy, sorry, I forgot to reply to you. I think Shadow had an interesting story, but he himself was a little bland for me. I just didn't feel any attachment to him. Make sense?

The show is supposed to start at the end of the month. Are you going to watch it?