Jonathan’s Comments (group member since Oct 24, 2013)

Jonathan’s comments from the Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 group.

Renato wrote: " It almost feels that it validates all of his jealousy attacks in the sense that maybe there was actually some flirt going on back there... "

I guess they must have carried on seeing each other over the years.

I don't know if it helps Dave but my Vintage edition (which is the MKE translation and should be similar to the Modern Library edition available in the US) is as follows:
The Captive: pp1-559
The Fugitive: p561
Ch1: Grieving and Forgetting, p563-751
Ch2: Mademoiselle de Forcheville, p753-843
Ch3: Sojourn in Venice, p844-889
Ch4: New Aspect of Robert de Saint-Loup, p891-936

It's true that there's an element of doubt; even the narrator wonders whether this revelation is in fact the lie - he suspects that Andrée may be making it up when they're involved in their 'semi-carnal relations' as the narrator has let it slip that he's turned on by making love to a woman that has made love to Albertine. I'm sure there are more twists and turns to come.

My quote of the week:

Lying is essential to humanity. It plays as large a part perhaps as the quest for pleasure, and is moreover governed by that quest. One lies in order to protect one's pleasure, or one's honour if the disclosure of one's pleasure runs counter to one's honour. One lies all one's life long, even, especially, perhaps only, to those who love one. For they alone make us fear for our pleasure and desire their esteem.

I also liked the last sentence of chapter two:

Truth and life are very difficult to fathom, and I retained of them, without really having got to know them, an impression in which sadness was perhaps actually eclipsed by exhaustion.

He sounds weary.

Dave wrote: "What was the syringa incident Jonathan?"

Where the narrator returned home with a bunch of syringa and caught Albertine & Andrée acting odd, they said they found the flowers overpowering but they'd been 'playing around' in his absence.

I guess it's the conversations between the narrator and Andrée that are most revealing. I don't really get the way that Proust deals with the syringa incident, because it's certainly a revelation to the narrator when Andrée explains what was going on but when it was first mentioned in The Captive he explains to us roughly what had gone on; so it was no real surprise to us the reader.

I wonder if Proust would have got rid of this partial revelation early on if he'd had the chance to revise the text.

Why do the Guermantes stop the narrator commenting on Swann when he looks at Elstir's paintings? I'm not really sure about this. Is it just that any talk of Swann may lead to Gilberte's mother?

A bit of additional info I liked finding out was that the name Swann was supposed to have English roots.

I'm intrigued to know who Sanilon is - he wrote a letter to the narrator congratulating him on his article in Figaro.

I liked the bit where the narrator thinks of Bergotte reading his article...we're thinking 'but he's dead isn't he?'...only for it to be revealed that the narrator had dreamt it. Is Proust playing with the reader here? I like to think so.

Chapter 2 has to be one of the most densely packed sections of ISOLT as it has so much info and revelations. I'm surely going to have to re-read this at some point.

So we get to see the narrator at lunch with the Guermantes and Gilberte Swann or G S Forcheville, which was simply unheard of whilst Swann was alive. I guess it's more palatable now that her new name is not tainted.

Dave wrote: "I am reading "around in" the last part of The Fugitive to refresh my memory to discuss it. I may read the last volume again with you folks -I don't feel I read the last volume as closely as I should. "

I'm having the same feeling and that's on the parts that I've just read. :-) Ch.2 had a lot of info in it and I read through it quite fast (for me). Now I'm trying to process it all and make sense of it.

I was reading the Penguin version and near the end of ch.1 came across this quote:

The problem with people is that for us they are no more than prints in our mental museum, which fade on exposure.

As I like marking quotes that I like, I wondered why I hadn't noticed that quote on my first read, which was the MKE translation. Here it is:

It is the tragedy of other people that they are merely showcases for the very perishable collections of one's own mind.

No wonder it didn't stand out, the Penguin version is much better. The original French is:

C'est le malheur des êtres de n'être pour nous que des planches de collections fort usables dans notre pensée.

With my very limited French it looks like the MKE version is a more literal translation unfortunately.

I was just having another look at the meeting between the narrator and Andrée at the end of ch.1. The narrator is now viewing Andrée through Albertine's eyes, he finds her attractive. But didn't he find her the most attractive of the band of girls anyway?

The narrator is wearing her down with his inquisition. She doesn't admit to having a sexual relationship with Albertine though.

Dave wrote: "You are moving right along in your reading Jonathan."

Yes, Renato and I have decided to carry on with the rest of the volume. It will take me a couple more days probably as I'm a slow reader anyway and I'll be working as well. The fact that the end of vol.6 is split into chapters didn't fit with the schedule either. I'm at least going to finish ch.2 tonight. Ch.2 sure has a lot of revelations!

Dave wrote: "On the content of the quote I would note a few things:

- How bitter, cynical, and pessimistic it is about love and all happy circumstance (at beginning and end) and the unresolved deep anger towar..."

I'm on next week's scheduled reading and have just finished the part where the narrator is musing on love after Andrée's visit; I won't post too much here but it is quite bleak concerning love: Lying is essential to humanity', all choices in love are bad, to have loved Albertine was to know all her hideousness etc.

Renato wrote: "I've felt a couple of times that there were two narrators in the story. One that works as if he was narrating things as they happen - the actual actions -, and other, wiser, that offers commentary ..."

I've only noticed it vaguely. Is it so clear to you that you can pinpoint when it switches back and forth?

Interesting. Are you coming across many passages on your second reading that seem to refer to later parts of the novel? I know that whilst reading it there have been passages where the narrator appears to be referring to some particular event but is clouded in ambiguity.

I've heard other readers mention that there are two distinct narrators, an old and young narrator. Do you see this? I don't really notice this when I'm reading but there may be something in it.

That's ok with me Dave...post it! Have a good evening.

Dave wrote: "Before I respond Jonathan, can you say where they were when he did not recognize her? "

This is the beginning of chapter two, 'Mademoiselle de Forcheville'; he sees the three girls and the blonde girl looks at him as she walks by. There's the mix up with the names and when he meets her at the Guermantes he doesn't recognise her when she's introduced as Mlle de Forcheville.

When reading this I kept thinking 'surely he must recognise her' but I know myself that people greet me, that apparently know me, but I haven't a clue who they are.

I was really surprised that the narrator didn't recognise Gilberte especially as he starts to lust after her; but is that just because he thinks she's a tart?

He can't help lusting after these sexually active and independent girls and then agonising over their sexual activities and independence.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Only two weeks behind the group now, so I hope to catch up to everyone soon! ..."

Yes, I wondered what that was that I could see over my shoulder...it was Sunny rapidly approaching.

I'm glad you liked The Captive as well. I'm finding The Fugitive a bit more hard work in places. Proust's style seems 'fresher' with these two volumes.

Dave wrote: "Ha! Wishful thinking on the Narrator's part I suspect. Andree was close to Albertine (even if only as a friend) in a way that could never be."

In this part he seems happy enough to believe this, though he must realise that he's being lied to.

Normally I've commented after I've finished the week's reading, but for some reason I started commenting as I'm reading this week.

Following this section the narrator casually mentions himself eavesdropping on two 'laundry-girls' (do these girls ever do any actual laundry?) in 'pleasuring themselves'...just another day in our narrator's life. :-)