Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen spoiler thread
It occurred to me that it might be useful and amusing to set up a thread where people who had already read the book (currently in eARC only) could talk to each other about it freely, and the spoiler-sensitive could safely steer clear. So, you speed readers (the book took me 4 years to write, you know...), this comment space is yours.
The book may be seen at:
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2892-gent...
if you missed the note. Four free sample chapters are up there.
***
Meanwhile, someone had asked about the audio version -- there will be one, from Blackstone Audio, due to release simultaneously with the hardcover on February 2, 2016.
http://www.blackstonelibrary.com/cata...
The downloadable version, which is 99% of my audiobook sales, does not yet have a page on downpour.com but I expect one will appear closer to time. I'm not sure what the lead-time is over on that e-arm. (I know they can't have recorded it yet, because they won't have the final version in hand for several more weeks.)
***
Later: It also occurs to me this thread could be used by folks to report typos. I already have "as she forced herself though what had seemed the endless gauntlet"... Feel free to mention any others below.
Ta, L.
Later still: The file has gone to the printer, so the shop is now closed for further typo reports. Thanks, all!
Ta, L.
The book may be seen at:
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2892-gent...
if you missed the note. Four free sample chapters are up there.
***
Meanwhile, someone had asked about the audio version -- there will be one, from Blackstone Audio, due to release simultaneously with the hardcover on February 2, 2016.
http://www.blackstonelibrary.com/cata...
The downloadable version, which is 99% of my audiobook sales, does not yet have a page on downpour.com but I expect one will appear closer to time. I'm not sure what the lead-time is over on that e-arm. (I know they can't have recorded it yet, because they won't have the final version in hand for several more weeks.)
***
Later: It also occurs to me this thread could be used by folks to report typos. I already have "as she forced herself though what had seemed the endless gauntlet"... Feel free to mention any others below.
Ta, L.
Later still: The file has gone to the printer, so the shop is now closed for further typo reports. Thanks, all!
Ta, L.
Ursula wrote: "Another possible typo, chapter 6:"I see.” He swallowed his tilted grin, and more tea.
I suspect a verb is needed - he drank, gulped, swallowed, etc. more tea."
I don't think so. Why repeat the verb when it's clear (to me anyway, and I suspect many others) that it's the same one being used for both clauses? He swallowed both his grin and the tea. I thought that was pretty straightforward.
Revisiting other topics in the thread, as a polyamorous woman in a complex open relationship, I do not feel any less loved or valued than my girlfriend's other girlfriend (or as poly people call it, my metamour).
Why would being in a triad mean that Aral and Cordelia loved each other any less? I'll be very frank and say that I have never been able to comprehend the very monosexual and monoamorous view that love is a finite quantity and sharing it with more people makes it less valuable. Why should it? Love is something the world ought to have more of, and I feel that people should be less possessive and limiting of it when it happens.
Also... it's actually a bit hurtful to see someone suggest that sharing love devalues the relationship between a very devoted couple who have always been very open with each other.
Ursula wrote: "Another possible typo, chapter 6:The verb is 'swallowed' - being used in a metaphorical and then a literal sense.
The construction in which both grin and tea are swallowed is technically known as a zeugma. Done well (as here), it's a delight.
And thinking about the poly issue, I wonder if it's less about loving and more about fears of inadequacy because you can't meet all your partner(s)' needs. Which, well, no one CAN.
Serendi wrote: "The construction in which both grin and tea are swallowed is technically known as a zeugma. Done well (as here), it's a delight."Oh thank you, I was trying to remember that term. Yes, exactly.
Ta, L.
Serendi wrote: "The construction in which both grin and tea are swallowed is technically known as a zeugma. Done well (as here), it's a delight."Thanks, I didn't know there was a term for this. And you're right, I love the usage when done well.
Serendi wrote: "And thinking about the poly issue, I wonder if it's less about loving and more about fears of inadequacy because you can't meet all your partner(s)' needs. Which, well, no one CAN."I feel the valorization of monogamy is also a relic of the period of history/prehistory when loss of support through its division or diversion could be lethal (on the female side) combined with paternity-anxiety on the male side (in that case, diversion of resources to progeny not one's own.) In a world of scarcity, these anxieties are far more cogent and pressing.
In a modern world, having relationships be a separated matter from support, not to mention paternity being assurable by DNA testing, runs a whole different economy in under the matter. It will take a while for human psychology to catch up with that, I daresay.
Technology changes everything.
The book/s, of course, examine, at least in passing, the sorts of social change that become possible when reproduction is entirely separated from sex and sexuality. (The inverse, sexuality separated from reproduction, is a social experiment in progress in the here-and-now with technologically improved contraception.)
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: Yes, he did; he had to get straight back and run Sergyar Fleet/the planet in the absence of all its Viceroys; I had the impression he did that a lot in the absence of the V-regal pair and later the Vicereine. Which left me surprised that nobody tried to twist his arm into taking up Cordelia's empty chair. There's certainly no one better prepared for it.
Was I the only one who teared up when Cordelia's hair was first mentioned? It really got me right in the gut.
When Miles first met Jole aboard the Prince Serg, and admired Jole only as The Perfect Officer, I thought to myself, "Oh, Miles, when it comes to your Da, you really only see what you want to see, don't you?"I thought that at the very least that Jole, in addition to being a competent officer, had been chosen by Aral because of his good looks. I figured Cordelia wouldn't care, as some spouses don't mind an "eye candy" secretary as long as that person is an efficient employee, and the spouse is certain of their mate's fidelity. Also, she would probably admire Jole's good looks as well!
And later, I thought, "Well, if Aral and Jole were to get together sexually, I'm sure they'd clear it with Cordelia, and her being Betan, she might not mind."
What I didn't expect was for Jole to be bisexual as well, but I was very pleased to find out that Aral, Cordelia, and Jole had had such a successful polyamorous relationship. Good for the three of them! I'm not into polyamory myself, but if it makes other people happy, who am I to judge? Go for it.
The only thing I feel bad about is that Aral's new daughters and sons won't get to know him. I had a great relationship with my extraordinary dad, and I miss him terribly.
It worked out so that I finished the book in the wee hours of my birthday--thank you for the unintended gift!The only better gift is knowing I can come to GR and read your posts, lovely little insights and tidbits all.
Mrelia wrote: "Was I the only one who teared up when Cordelia's hair was first mentioned? It really got me right in the gut."Yes! That, and how much Cordelia was happy about Aurelia being a "sturdy" baby.
It was great to catch a glimpse of Cordelia's inner life aside from the great events that surrounded her all these years. I was saddened, though, when she reflected on Aral's memory being reduced to Aral stories and history.
The first chapter and the reveal of the Aral-Cordelia-Oliver relationship was quite shocking to me. That, by itself, is wonderful, because after having read all the books, I was surprised that I could be surprised. It completely hooked me. But, I admit that at first, I was kind of disturbed/disappointed. I loved when Cordelia said in Barrayar that Aral "Was bisexual...now he's monogamous." I liked the acknowledgement that just because someone is bisexual, it does not mean that they are promiscuous. But, as we learned more of the relationship between the three, with those brief little glimpses they mentioned throughout the book, I began to understand it a bit more. By the time Miles says "That's not a dalliance, that's a damned marriage.", I had already reached the same conclusion. It wasn't just some indulgent sexual fling, it was love. A relationship which just happens to be very true to their history / background. Beautifully done and Lois' earlier comments in response to Beatrice also helped my understanding. I wouldn't have thought of Aral's concerns about leaving Cordelia alone. I've already read the book twice and I love it. Thank you so much Lois for bringing us Cordelia's story. She is one of my absolute favorite characters and it's so good to see her obtain her long dreamed of brood.
PS. I wonder what Cordelia would name Sergyar if she was ever given the chance to re-name it?
A few years back, I commented to my husband that the book I wanted was Conversations with Cordelia. I didn't care about a plot or anything, I just wanted a book of scenes of Cordelia having insightful and hilarious conversations with various other characters in the series. It would be awesome.This is that book!
I'm so happy:D
possible typoTowards end of book re Ekaterin's gardens:-
ecocline
Is it supposed to be ecoclime?
Loving the book even more on the second read
One more typo to add, this one from chapter 1: "in opposition— their workload After Aral" -- just needs a period after workload.
Karenhunt wrote: "One more typo to add, this one from chapter 1: "in opposition— their workload After Aral" -- just needs a period after workload."Nope, After Aral is capped for emphasis, not because it's a new sentence. Like Post Meridian, or some such.
Ta, L.
Sarkat wrote: "A few years back, I commented to my husband that the book I wanted was Conversations with Cordelia"Me, too. This book is entirely satisfying for my Cordelia worship.
Hazel wrote: "possible typoTowards end of book re Ekaterin's gardens:-
ecocline
Is it supposed to be ecoclime?
Loving the book even more on the second read"
No, ecocline is intended.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/...
Ta, L
Another typo, Chapter 7 - "I though the mothballing protocols were considered routine...?"Should be 'thought' instead of 'though'.
Kate wrote: "Another typo, Chapter 7 - "I though the mothballing protocols were considered routine...?"Should be 'thought' instead of 'though'."
Aha.
Thought, through, and though seem to be especially deceptive to the eye.
(Add "thorough" to that list.)
Ta, L.
Elisabeth wrote: "I love the book, and now I'll have to go back and re-read all the others.One quibble: it's not a typo, but there is a sentence fragment in the second paragraph of chapter one. It's the one that s..."
Intentional; it is a list.
Btw, I will be closing shop for typos after this weekend or so, so don't be shy about mentioning them. I will sort out which are real and which are false positives.
Ta, L.
(Also, if anyone knows how to turn off that function in Word spellchuck that keeps marking my sentence fragments with green underlines, let me know. It is, to say the least, not useful for tight-third-person stream-of-consciousness-ish fiction.)
Thanks for yet another fantastic book, I was really hoping to hear more about Cordelia. It was interesting that here the "worst possible thing for that character/s" had already happened before the book started - I tend to find myself wondering what you're going to do to your poor characters next, so it was strangely restful to read about recovery. And it makes so much sense that Cordelia would go back to her Survey roots.I do agree that it seems a bit odd that Jole and Aral getting together happened while Cordelia was out of town; it seems a bit dishonest to change the terms of Aral/Cordelia's relationship unilaterally, even if her approval was likely, and given in retrospect. I find it easier to imagine Cordelia giving them both a good Betan talking to about their mutual unrequited love, followed by her closing the bedroom doors on them. Though of course it occurs to me that it's quite possible that she had already done just that and then deliberately set them up with that convenient absence!
A heartfelt thank you so much for this and all your previous books. They have meant a lot to me since I first came across them, and since I became a mother I've been finding even more resonances.
PS - I think under the spelling and grammar options you can tell word to ignore fragments. Or just turn off the grammar check altogether!
Depends which version of Word. In Word 2013, click on File and select Options at the bottom of the blue bar to the left. Select Proofing. Go down to "When correcting spelling and grammar in Word" and turn everything off. Click OK.
Jessgoesnorth wrote: "Thanks for yet another fantastic book, I was really hoping to hear more about Cordelia. It was interesting that here the "worst possible thing for that character/s" had already happened before the ..."Yes, there has been some interesting early-reader commentary on that bit of backfill, necessarily brief since both members of the conversation had been there (more or less), at the start of things. It is apparent that not as much went without saying as I imagined; I may need to put in half a line -- no more would fit -- to try to head that readerly misapprehension off at the pass.
Regardless of whatever tacit permissions Aral thought he had, I can quite see why he would want to try this experiment in Cordelia's absence, not because she would object, but because he feared she might try to help, Betanly. If the trial with Jole were to be a failure, he'd want to let it be quietly buried, never to be spoken of again by either party, and not be subject to earnest cryorevival attempts, amateur Betan psychoanalysis provided gratis. "Let's solve everything by honest communication!" is all very well, as long as all involved also grok when it is time to shut up...
"I find it easier to imagine Cordelia giving them both a good Betan talking to about their mutual unrequited love, followed by her closing the bedroom doors on them." -- yeah, Aral could imagine it, too.
A bit later, when his relationship with Oliver was more secure, Aral could dare to turn Cordelia loose on the poor man and hope he wouldn't be freaked into flight. Aral loves Cordelia beyond breath, but he's had twenty years by then to watch her effect on unsuspecting Barrayarans.
:-), L.
Lois wrote: "Regardless of whatever tacit permissions Aral thought he had, I can quite see why he would want to try this experiment in Cordelia's absence, not because she would object, but because he feared she might try to help, Betanly. If the trial..."Thank you for that bit of explanation. That was the one part that bothered me, the permission/approval after the fact. She clearly was fine with it all, but it wasn't entirely clear if Aral knew that. Sometimes people can be find with something in the abstract but object in the specific.
Jessica wrote: "Lois wrote: "Regardless of whatever tacit permissions Aral thought he had, I can quite see why he would want to try this experiment in Cordelia's absence, not because she would object, but because ..."There were doubtless a large number of Barrayarans Cordelia would have objected to quite strenuously (starting with Ges); Oliver was not one of them. Both the abstract and the specific needed to be right. (Or, in this lucky case, really fine.)
Ta, L.
...You know, as much as I am enjoying the characters-and-relationships conversations, I am getting increasingly curious as to how the book would read as a science fiction novel (specifically, bio-science) to someone who has no prior acquaintance with the Vorkosiverse or other expectations about it.I expect such readers to be rare, but I do wonder.
Ta, L
In my mind, when I read the bit about Aral and his mad crushes, I just assumed that he and Cordelia had spoken about it before. When Jole asks her if there had been a lot of these crushes, she's quite clear on the fact that there were not that many, I thought. I just filled it in that they had spoken about what a fine man Oliver was and Aral knew Cordelia wouldn't mind.
Really enjoyed this book. Even more on the second reading than the first. This kind of fit with what I imagined Cordelia would be doing after Aral's death. Leaving Barrayar, having more adventures of some kind.Typo, Chapter 9
"Was sometimes-Lord Auditor Vorkosigan making some secret inspection of behalf of his master Emperor Gregor?"
Should that first "of" be "on"?
Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but there's a continuity error: Cordelia was thirty-four when she met forty-four-year-old Aral in _Shards_of_Honor_, but GJ&RQ has her at thirty-three when Aral fell in love on her. A very tiny detail, but still.Also, I entreat - no, beg - you to change the line about "an invasive species of chimpanzee". Humans are very closely related to chimps, but we're not a type of them. Consider 'ape' or 'primate' instead.
Matthew wrote: "Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but there's a continuity error: Cordelia was thirty-four when she met forty-four-year-old Aral in _Shards_of_Honor_, but GJ&RQ has her at thirty-thre..."No, she was 33 at that time. From Shards, chapter 4, referring to young men imagining active love lives for Aral and Cordelia while on Sergyar the first time: "Old folks, too, of thirty-three and forty-plus."
SoH, Chapter 13: "Yes," Cordelia agreed cordially, writhing within. "One doesn't expect a thirty-four-year-old to fall in love like an adolescent. Quite an unexpected—gift, at my age. Even more unexpected at forty-four, I gather."Looks as though the problem is with SoH rather than GJRQ. Drat.
Matthew wrote: "SoH, Chapter 13: "Yes," Cordelia agreed cordially, writhing within. "One doesn't expect a thirty-four-year-old to fall in love like an adolescent. Quite an unexpected—gift, at my age. Even more une..."well in Shards of honor by the time Cordelia says that line its been about a year so she would be 34 by that point
Thank you for writing a wonderful, intelligent and enjoyable read and for ending it with a happy (second) beginning not an ending. The whole novel felt like a gift.
Susan wrote: "Thank you for writing a wonderful, intelligent and enjoyable read and for ending it with a happy (second) beginning not an ending. The whole novel felt like a gift."You are most welcome.
I expected reactions and reviews for this book to be mixed, and indeed they are (as they have been for all my books, actually, looking back), but enough readers appear to be "getting" what I intended that I think the long writing-journey was worth it.
Not that I had another choice, apparently. This book was the most stubborn I ever tackled, in terms of insisting on being what it became. Every time I tried to shove it into a more standard genre template, it went on sit-down strike, not only refusing to move itself, but blocking anything else from getting by. When I cooperated with the material rather than fighting it, it flowed. Very strange experience.
Ta, L.
"Every time I tried to shove it into a more standard genre template, it went on sit-down strike, not only refusing to move itself, but blocking anything else from getting by. When I cooperated with the material rather than fighting it, it flowed. Very strange experience."Well, yeah. It's Cordelia after all.
I told a friend that it's a 'quite' book, all about the character moments. Lots happens but it's not running and jumping and space battles.
I'd like to add my thanks, too. I'd wished for more Cordelia for years and years and here it is. I 'gulped' it on the first reading and now I'm on my second read and savoring. Thanks.
I have only read the first four chapters and will wait for the audio version to save my failing vision, but I loved what I read. It makes me want to go back and listen to all the others before getting the new one. I was so afraid when Aral died that you would not publish another book to advance the story. I agree with other comments that only those of us over 30/40 who have read all the books as they came will truly appreciate this book. I hope you are already working on the net one.
Lois wrote: "...You know, as much as I am enjoying the characters-and-relationships conversations, I am getting increasingly curious as to how the book would read as a science fiction novel (specifically, bio-s..."Well, I'm not a first time reader, but the whole book did not feel very "science fiction" to me. The reproductive technology, at this point, is so entwined in the universe that this seemed a rather tame use of it, compared to what the Cetagandans or Jacksonians are up to. Very natural to the setting and characters.
Although it did leave me wondering if Ethan had picked up the trick for having children with two fathers and donated eggshells while on Beta Colony, and how that would affect his plans with the telepathy genes. Because it would solve Athos's problems with inbreeding to the same ovarian culture mothers.
I loved the bits with Sergayar's native biology. I liked that the people didn't know everything. I've been rewatching Star Trek: The Next Generation lately, and it was a nice contrast to the way they instantly know all about a planet with scanners.
I was reminded, a bit, of Eric Flint's 1632 series, and the problem of knowing how to do stuff, but needing the infrastructure to use your knowledge effectively. Which was really Cordelia's job description, knowing what order to prioritize industries, to get things done.
I finally just got that Simone was named from Simon! I loved the book, and so appreciate checking in with Cordelia again. It was great to see the children, and how they are doing. But just the hint of how Ivan and Tej are doing was cruel...And i was left wanting to get Ekaterin's POV again.
Now i have to go re-read everything again!
Thank you so much for these years of enjoyment.
Ursula wrote: "Lois wrote: "...You know, as much as I am enjoying the characters-and-relationships conversations, I am getting increasingly curious as to how the book would read as a science fiction novel (specif..."It is, when one thinks about it, a curious effect that all the tech of the Vorkosiverse now seems as ordinary as a light switch to the readers.
I wanted much of it to seem that way to the characters, because of course it would.
The transition from astounding to mundane takes less time than one would imagine. I am put in mind of those detective stories from the turn of the prior century, that make so much of it when a character has occasion to use a telephone or a motorcar.
Ta, L.
Hi Lois--I've been loving your books for over 20 years and thought CVA was perfect! As for GJRQ, thanks for the explanation of why Aral gave it a try with Cordelia out of town because that was the only thing that bothered me. I skimmed the last half because I just had to hear from Miles, and now I can enjoy it more on the reread with your words in mind. Loved the last chapter with Jole retired and turning to science--makes me so happy for Cordelia!I reread your books more than those of any other author and especially enjoy the Memory thru Civil Campaign trio (I'm crazy about Ekaterin), and the Ivan book is a new favorite--especially the scene in which Alyss is ready to make the latest burning ritual the last--that was so moving for a long-time fan of the series.
I'm glad you gave the book a chance, and that it worked for you.Selig is the name of a Vorkosigan ancestor (possibly more than one) associated with, iirc, the "smuggling pack-horses" scheme, and with the ill-fated Maiden of the Lake.
Ta, L.
My wife above says how she's been saying for years she wanted a "conversations with Cordelia" book, and this delivered on that. I've been saying I wanted to see the ecosystem of Sergyar! And it delivered that too :)We just finished it, and wow, what a great mirror-spiral-bookend to Shards of Honor, in so many ways! Cryoburn mirrors and bookends Warrior's Apprentice, so it makes sense that there has to be another book beyond mirroring and bookending Shards!
Enjoyable as always.However, I am a bit surprised that during all the talk about aging and lifespans no one mentioned the Durona Treatment - which could mean that their lifespans for watching their children and grandchildren grow up might be much, much longer. Has the treatment run into new complications?
Jürgen wrote: "Enjoyable as always.However, I am a bit surprised that during all the talk about aging and lifespans no one mentioned the Durona Treatment - which could mean that their lifespans for watching the..."
It's still under development (and didn't need to be a part of this book -- so much backstory packed in already!) In my personal speculations, I can imagine it as giving Oliver and Cordelia an extra couple of decades of science career, later on.
Ta, L.
Generally I'd characterize your works as 'hopeful realistic', but this is perhaps the first that goes over into optimism. Changes in technology change the way inherent human drives are expressed, but doesn't change the drives themselves. So while we now have the ability to identify paternity with simple tests, people are still sexually and romantically jealous.I find it very difficult to believe that any amount of technological progress and cultural change could result in Cordelia not being even slightly upset upon finding that her husband was both sleeping with someone else and had established a deep emotional relationship with that person.
I presume there weren't any Miles-related problems with blasters as a consequence of putting his children in harm's way.
If you wanted a proper lecture, you'd likely have to hit up Dr. Tatiana. (Who would be more than good for it.) Betan though she is/was, Cordelia is really only up to delivering the Layperson's Version.
Ta, L.