Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen spoiler thread
It occurred to me that it might be useful and amusing to set up a thread where people who had already read the book (currently in eARC only) could talk to each other about it freely, and the spoiler-sensitive could safely steer clear. So, you speed readers (the book took me 4 years to write, you know...), this comment space is yours.
The book may be seen at:
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2892-gent...
if you missed the note. Four free sample chapters are up there.
***
Meanwhile, someone had asked about the audio version -- there will be one, from Blackstone Audio, due to release simultaneously with the hardcover on February 2, 2016.
http://www.blackstonelibrary.com/cata...
The downloadable version, which is 99% of my audiobook sales, does not yet have a page on downpour.com but I expect one will appear closer to time. I'm not sure what the lead-time is over on that e-arm. (I know they can't have recorded it yet, because they won't have the final version in hand for several more weeks.)
***
Later: It also occurs to me this thread could be used by folks to report typos. I already have "as she forced herself though what had seemed the endless gauntlet"... Feel free to mention any others below.
Ta, L.
Later still: The file has gone to the printer, so the shop is now closed for further typo reports. Thanks, all!
Ta, L.
The book may be seen at:
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2892-gent...
if you missed the note. Four free sample chapters are up there.
***
Meanwhile, someone had asked about the audio version -- there will be one, from Blackstone Audio, due to release simultaneously with the hardcover on February 2, 2016.
http://www.blackstonelibrary.com/cata...
The downloadable version, which is 99% of my audiobook sales, does not yet have a page on downpour.com but I expect one will appear closer to time. I'm not sure what the lead-time is over on that e-arm. (I know they can't have recorded it yet, because they won't have the final version in hand for several more weeks.)
***
Later: It also occurs to me this thread could be used by folks to report typos. I already have "as she forced herself though what had seemed the endless gauntlet"... Feel free to mention any others below.
Ta, L.
Later still: The file has gone to the printer, so the shop is now closed for further typo reports. Thanks, all!
Ta, L.
To me the largest theme I got from this book is that one's life is never fixed. I think Jole started feeling like his previous choices in life had left him just one path forward. Cordelia's offer and the technology available suddenly gave him a whole new landscape (literally and figuratively) to explore. The technology upended the traditional progression of one's life and now all things were possible in whatever order one chose to take them. It just required the desire and bravery to take the leap. I think that recurrent theme was the most interesting from a scifi perspective. Have you any thoughts to write on this battalion of Aral-descendants that will be let loose on Sergyar? If Miles had the living legend to judge himself against, these children will have the myth and legend of Aral, not to mention Miles' stories once they're declassified. That is a tough legacy to compare oneself to.
Jessica wrote: "To me the largest theme I got from this book is that one's life is never fixed. I think Jole started feeling like his previous choices in life had left him just one path forward. Cordelia's offer a..."I doubt the kids will be intimidated by the memory of Aral. He'll be, emotionally, something like a grandfather or great-grandfather who died before they were born.
Plus, they'll have greatness closer to home. Living up to the legacy of Cordelia will be enough, especially since in Sergyar she wasn't as much in Aral's shadow, and Jole will be a Great Man of Sergyar's founding in his own right.
"Gregor has mentioned to me on the q. t. "... Not really a typo, but as abbreviation of quiet i think "qt" makes better sense. If any." if she’d been as lacking in nous as some of the rank-and-file."
Nous??? As in French? Noose? Mousse? Lacking in mousse, now that would be déclassé.
"and was quite alive to the depths those elegant, deceptive surfaces hid."I stumbled a bit on that but then I'm not a native english speaker.
...and was quite alive to the depths hidden by those elegant, deceptive surfaces?
Pocojo wrote: ""Gregor has mentioned to me on the q. t. "... Not really a typo, but as abbreviation of quiet i think "qt" makes better sense. If any." if she’d been as lacking in nous as some of the rank-and-fi..."
q.t. = http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...
nous = http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...
(scroll down to Brit slang meaning 2.)
Ta, L.
Ursula wrote: "Lois wrote: "Serendi wrote: "Makes sense - I'm not sure why I didn't think of hypomania as more intense than excitement. Oh well...."Possibly because of the word-echo with "hypothyroid" and like..."
Yeah, I'm now wondering if I ought to just change it to "scientific mania", since it seems to confuse people. Though I thought "hypomania" was both more precise, and more amusing.
Ta, L. 11th-hour dithering.
If a reader can vote on the "hypomania" question, I say don't change it. I was thinking last night that I really enjoy reading an author who employs a vocabulary that sometimes challenges the reader.
Lois wrote: "Jessgoesnorth wrote: "Thanks for yet another fantastic book, I was really hoping to hear more about Cordelia. It was interesting that here the "worst possible thing for that character/s" had alread..."I've been mulling over whether there might be any short, succinct way to imply this in the book, and it runs up against a viewpoint problem. While evading Cordelia's earnest help in the event of failure-mode might have been in Aral's mind, he would never have told her that, because he'd rather bite his tongue in half than hurt her feelings, and he'd never tell Jole, because it would seem like dissing her to his new lover, see, tongue again. And the shakedown-cruise part of the relationship was pretty soon avalanched-over for all of them by onrushing public events, which they united to meet, tag-team fashion. So it would just be added to the many secrets Aral'd died with, I'm afraid.
The prose has pretty much set to concrete by this stage of a book, for me, and requires a jackhammer to pry open; plus every change at this stage is entered by another person with no chance to cross-check, creating an opportunity to introduce new errors. Even though we are no longer in the era of lead type (where revisions were a serious nightmare), late textual changes are not something to encourage.
And making changes to fix problems I don't share is always like shooting blind. Hm.
Ta, L. Still mulling.
Jan wrote: "If a reader can vote on the "hypomania" question, I say don't change it. I was thinking last night that I really enjoy reading an author who employs a vocabulary that sometimes challenges the reader."I agree!
You may have underestimated how much it will bother people that Aral did it on the sly. And what does it say about Jole that it started that way? The 3-way is fine, but the way it started doesn't go with the honorable way of living we've come to expect from Aral and Cordelia.
In case it wasn't sufficiently clear: I think this is an absolutely marvelous book. Making a work that's really nothing more than conversations - between people, or a person and themselves - is a challenge even for skilled authors, and I think this succeeded brilliantly.The scene with Jole looking at the slide shows in the fertility clinic reminded me of something I once read about the technology of sword making: weapons are not perfected until they are already obsolete. It seems that, in the Vorkosiverse, humanity developed a rigorous and comprehensive understanding of sexuality only once its reproductive functions were supplanted with technological assistance. Ironic.
I am also reminded of the suggestion that the various planetary cultures and gene pools are slowly producing 'human aliens', and I find it slightly humorous that of all the characters in the series the only one whose motivations I find appropriately alien is Cordelia Vorkosigan.
"Except to continue to improve our broad scientific and bioexpertise [...]"Shouldn't there be hyphens? 'our broad scientific- and bio-expertise' ?
Kim wrote: "You may have underestimated how much it will bother people that Aral did it on the sly. And what does it say about Jole that it started that way? The 3-way is fine, but the way it started doesn't g..."I know that you've addressed this comment to Lois, but I hope you won't mind if I interject. I have to say that I (gently) disagree that either Jole or Aral demonstrated any dishonorable actions in the context of the story. While it may be discomfiting for people who are accustomed to North American 21st-century traditional views of monogamy and partnership, I don't think it was either out of character or out of line. Speaking as someone who's had friends in committed poly marriages, who ended up in extremely similar situations in which none of the parties were unduly stressed, it's very easy for me to look at the scenario described and see very little problem with any character's actions or reactions.
That said, I can understand your discomfort with the situation, and I won't try to talk you out of your disappointment--that would be rude as well as invalidating, and your feelings are valid. (I don't want to be that person on the internet who tells people that what they feel is wrong.)
But I don't think that this book will quite be for everyone, if only because it describes such a different culture.
Lois - if you do decide to change the thing with Aral/Jole starting while Cordelia's away, I have a thought, which I will put in spoiler tags in case you don't want to read it. (view spoiler)
Ungelic_is_us wrote: "I know that you've addressed this comment to Lois, but I hope you won't mind if I interject. I have to say that I (gently) disagree that either Jole or Aral demonstrated any dishonorable actions in the context of the story. While.."I was somewhat in the camp of not being entirely comfortable with this occurring while Cordelia was off-world. However, I did remember that Cordelia clearly stated that she knew about Aral's other crushes that never amounted to anything. I gather he was very open with her about his thoughts, feelings, and desires, especially on this issue. I had the impression that Aral already had acceptance from her on pursuing an additional relationship.
Flaws and mistakes in characters are fine...but the Aral/Cordelia relationship is the foundation of the series, and it's shifted now. The trio is fine, but why choose doing it on the sly? Even if Aral knows Cordelia will be fine with it, why would Jole go along without being sure? It's the only thing that seems off to me in the book--heck in the series, but it's kind of a biggie. I don't think the author should change it, it's her world, but I fear it will bother me more over time, not less.
My feeling is that Cordelia was wise enough to give permission long before anything ever happened. She's Betan and knew his tastes already and trusted him. Plus she'd already experienced somebody trying to derail her marriage. Heck, they may have even had fun checking out men that matched both of their tastes. Then all Aral would have had to do is let Jole know that he had clearance from his wife. That Cordelia wasn't present at that time makes perfect sense to me.
Jan wrote: "My feeling is that Cordelia was wise enough to give permission long before anything ever happened. She's Betan and knew his tastes already and trusted him. Plus she'd already experienced somebody t..."Yes! Exactly. I didn't see it as something that happened "on the sly" so much as something that took Aral by surprise--while Cordelia wasn't surprised at all and had already given tacit (at least--possibly explicit) permission.
Putting Lois and Jan's comments together works for me.I agree with an earlier poster that Cordelia cutting hair was moving, in a very visceral way.
It does make Cordelia's assertion that Aral 'was bisexual. Now he's monogamous' even more weird than it was at the time (the two aren't mutually exclusive in the first place).Not that I have a problem with the relationship - but Cordelia's a character I've often found rather off-putting (I tend to share Lady Alys's view of her, ha!). She seems more mature and self-aware in this book than I've found her in the past.
But then, we're all older (and more-or-less) wiser than we were when we began this journey, so I'm happy to see these characters evolve.
I've been hoping for a Lady Alys focussed book for some time now, but I'd also be happy for another Mark centered tale (if we're putting in requests for future volumes).
The monogamous comment was nearly 20 years before the Jole relationship began, so that part doesn't bother me. People change. Lois makes it clear that Aral had a few crushes but nobody really tempted him before Jole.
I think a new Mark book would be wonderful, too!
Heck, if we're gonna wish, I'd love to see a Simon-centric book. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the other side of some of the happenings we know about, especially with his eidetic chip?
We're probably going to have to write such works ourselves, if we want Alys or Simon or Kareen to have their own books.On a totally unrelated note, this is Nanowrimo month.
Jan wrote: "Heck, if we're gonna wish, I'd love to see a Simon-centric book. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the other side of some of the happenings we know about, especially with his eidetic chip?"If you go to AO3, there is a pretty good fanfic retelling "Shards of Honor" from Simon's POV. I think the title is "Aral Vorkosigan's Dog"
Eric wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I really enjoyed the book - Cordelia being one of my favourite viewpoint characters - and even though I usually get annoyed by 'retcons', I thought the revelation of the Aral-Co..."...
One minor quibble: there is a reference to the Time of Isolation being about 100 years before. It's about 100 years since the Cetagandan Invasion, according to Piotr being a general at 22 and dying at about 95 or so thirty years before. It's always seemed like there was a ten to twenty year gap between rediscovery and invasion.
Can you recall where this was? My search on "Time of Isolation" didn't turn it up.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "Eric wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I really enjoyed the book - Cordelia being one of my favourite viewpoint characters - and even though I usually get annoyed by 'retcons', I thought the revelation o..."It's about 100 years since the Cetagandan Invasion, according to Piotr being a general at 22 and dying at about 95 or so thirty years before. It's always seemed like there was a ten to twenty year gap between rediscovery and invasion.
---
Me:
Piotr's age can be tricky to work out; likewise the number of years since the end of the Time of Isolation. I agree that the events of Gentleman Jole are something closer to 120 years since the end of ToI than 100, but that's close enough to allow rounding in people's heads. (which is to say I don't really mind a claim of "about 100 years ago")
What we have is: Piotr was born just before the end of Time of Isolation. He turned 22 sometime during the war, probably early. Aral stated at the start of _Barrayar_ that it'd been about 80 years since the end of the ToI, and that works reasonably well (ToI ends, something like 15 years happen, then Ceta Invasion happens for about 20 years. Some smallish number of years later Yuri kills Aral's mother and children: Aral was 11. Thirty-three years later is the start of _Barrayar_. ~15+~20+small+33 is not far from 80. That's within one of the year Miles is born, and at the time of GJ, he's 42 or so.
For a detailed discussion of dates as best I've been able to work out (I administer the vorkosigan wikia site), you can see:
http://vorkosigan.wikia.com/wiki/Piot... and
http://vorkosigan.wikia.com/wiki/Barr...
or some other articles, such as Time of Isolation and Selig Vorkosigan)
Karenhunt wrote: "Lois wrote: "Eric wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I really enjoyed the book - Cordelia being one of my favourite viewpoint characters - and even though I usually get annoyed by 'retcons', I thought the..."Oh, nicely done!
I'd add to the confusion the fact that different planets have different length years. So after a decade or two of having to tend to Sergyar, Cordelia is probably used to thinking in its years. When younger, she would have thought in Betan years, space-travel standard years, and later in Barrayan years. Piotr and Aral would think in Barrayan years, as would an older Miles, while a young "Admiral Naismith" miles would think in whatever was used as a standard in space travel.
So, I'm considering two tweaks to try to address some of the reader-problems discussed above:p. 19 [add new sentence to end of first paragraph:]
“The only surprise was how you two ever got past all your Barrayaran inhibitions in the first place.” Not that she and Aral hadn’t discussed Oliver in theory.
p. 21 [insert new clause in 2nd-to-last paragraph]
Her attempts at Barrayaran-style matchmaking had been extremely hit-or-miss over her lifetime—there were valid reasons, she recognized ruefully, why Aral might have avoided her aid when wooing Oliver—or she’d be tempted to try to help him somehow.
Does this help? Does this introduce new problems while trying to fix the old?
Running out of time to mull, L.
Definitely works for me. I particularly like the P.19 one.
Lois wrote: "So, I'm considering two tweaks to try to address some of the reader-problems discussed above:p. 19 [add new sentence to end of first paragraph:]
“The only surprise was how you two ever got past ..."
ETA: Disregard below, I managed to track down the context and it works perfectly as proposed.
****************
It works for me, I think.
I'm not sure you need the "or" in the last phrase.
How is this:
why Aral might have avoided her aid when wooing Oliver—or she’d be tempted to try to help him somehow.
versus this:
why Aral might have avoided her aid when wooing Oliver— she’d be tempted to try to help him somehow.
or perhaps the past tense? - she'd have been tempted to try to help him somehow.
The paging is messed up on my nook, so I'm not quite sure of the context. The last seems most clear that she is thinking about messing up Aral's courting, not someone else's right now.
I agree that the p19 addition helps significantly. The second also adds another confirmation that this wasn't done behind Cordelia's back.
In terms of the story of the relationship, I especially liked the passage about Jole finally truly believing Cordelia was onboard in the aftermath of the heart attack.
Ursula wrote: "Lois wrote: "So, I'm considering two tweaks to try to address some of the reader-problems discussed above:p. 19 [add new sentence to end of first paragraph:]
“The only surprise was how you two e..."
Hm, maybe --
Her attempts at Barrayaran-style matchmaking had been extremely hit-or-miss over her lifetime, or she’d be tempted to try to help him somehow. There were valid reasons, she recognized ruefully, why Aral might have avoided her aid back when wooing Oliver. But Oliver was . . . complicated.
Trades potential midsentence-clause-confusion for close repetition of the word Oliver, but clarifies what was (or wasn't) happening when.
I do purely hate this stage of revisions. It's like trying to swap out one card in the middle of the second level of an eight-level house of cards.
Ta, L.
I think that makes everything abundantly clear.Thanks for giving us this glimpse into the process.
Lois wrote: "Ursula wrote: "Lois wrote: "So, I'm considering two tweaks to try to address some of the reader-problems discussed above:p. 19 [add new sentence to end of first paragraph:]
“The only surprise wa..."
Actually, it made sense once I tracked down the context - paging was different on my Nook than you mentioned. So either works for me.
Serendi wrote: "Lois - if you do decide to change the thing with Aral/Jole starting while Cordelia's away, I have a thought, which I will put in spoiler tags in case you don't want to read it. [spoilers removed]"
Thanks; as you see below (above, by now), this was helpful.
Ta, L.
Matthew wrote: "Generally I'd characterize your works as 'hopeful realistic', but this is perhaps the first that goes over into optimism. Changes in technology change the way inherent human drives are expressed, but doesn't change the drives themselves. So while we now have the ability to identify paternity with simple tests, people are still sexually and romantically jealous."LMB: While statistical norms and arguments remain helpful when talking about groups, e.g., how many bathrooms for each gender should we install in this new building?, they aren't that much use for talking about individuals.
I find it very difficult to believe that any amount of technological progress and cultural change could result in Cordelia not being even slightly upset upon finding that her husband was both sleeping with someone else and had established a deep emotional relationship with that person."
LMB: I expect Cordelia would be far more put-out to discover her spouse sleeping with a person he hadn't established a deep emotional relationship with.
That said, there is an interesting AU speculation to be had about how things might (or might not) have played out differently if Aral's new secretary had been the tall, blond, hyper-competent, beautiful bisexual ISWA Lieutenant Olivia Jole... (Well, other than some male readers being more comfortable with the scenario.) Cordelia herself doesn't especially swing bi (sorry, ladies) though she is of course entirely Betanly tolerant. More than one challenge for her embedded there...
Also to keep in mind, the three-legged stool here is sex, reproduction, support. Don't underestimate how much that last feeds into the emotional substrate.
I presume there weren't any Miles-related problems with blasters as a consequence of putting his children in harm's way."
LMB: Not following this...
Ta, L.
Belated additional thought (I blame the shower): I think you may be thinking male, here. Many and many women throughout history and to the present day have lived and reproduced in polygamous cultures. While not necessarily enthusiastic about sharing a husband, it seems to be tolerated as long as the woman and her offspring are not shortchanged on the share of support. Better (and more reproductively successful) to have a share of wealth than 100% of abject poverty, perhaps. (Differences between static, hierarchical cultures and those with lots of social and economic mobility should likely be taken into account.)
Ta, L.
Lois-Your books have been significant in my life--I give them to friends more than any other author's (even Pratchett!).
And this generous discussion has been very helpful to me in grasping why your earlier Vorkosigan series books, have been so much more impactful on me than the more recent ones (starting with, say, Diplomatic Immunity), even though I read them all voraciously and enjoy them immensely.
As a first-order analysis, the pleasure I get from your books stems primarily from the elegance of your writing, the addictively engaging nature of your plot, and the personal growth your characters go through. For me, it has been the personal growth and development of insight into oneself that attends that growth which has been the greatest source of pleasure. For instance, the episode when Mark comes to know, accept and rely on his black gang, and rises to triumph through that integration in Mirror Dance, was for me a peak reading experience. I had a similar experience with Miles' wrestling with temptation in Memory. And Ista's transformation in most of Paladin of Souls was profoundly gratifying.
It's that personal change at such a high or intense level that I find so lessened in the Vorkosigan series as of Diplomatic Immunity, and similarly for, say, Ingrey in "The Hallowed Hunt". Please don't get me wrong; they're great reads, and I return to them every year or two. But in terms of really touching me most heartfuly, they are not as fine.
So in thinking about how important that personal change is to me, I think it is different from "what's the worst thing that could happen to this character" or "let's have a big adventure!" or even conflict, although any of those could support a story in which a character grows as a person. Am I missing something in GJ&RQ? I don't see that kind of change going on, and yet I think it ought to be compatible with writing a novel that's a blend of Women's Literature and Science Fiction....
Most importantly, I want you to write what you want to write. If it had been up to a younger version of myself, it would have been all Vorkosigan novels all the way down--and I've enjoyed and gotten as much from the Sharing Knife tetraology and the Five Gods series as I have from the Vorkosigan series. So I add my encouragement to others-Write, Lois, write--about what you want, and when you want!
Louann wrote: "For me, that quietly proud "Was bisexual, now he's monogamous" from Barrayar. Even smug. Oh, well, turns out Atticus Finch was a racist as well..."In each case, it added depth to the character. Aral did not squelch that side of himself entirely, and Atticus could defend a black man from false charges without considering him equal
Ursula wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I think I've found a conceptual 'typo':"You do realize there are more than three categories, all on one axis, for human sexual preferences, don’t you? I think you may just be suffe..."
Well, Aral's was determined during SOH as for soldiers.
Thanks; as you see below (above, by now), this was helpful.Thanks!
Lois wrote: "Not following this..."Perhaps I'm losing my mind, but didn't you recount to us a joke/story about Miles appearing before you with a blaster and making dire promises about what he'd do if you tried writing about his children? (And doubtless applying Bujold's Dictum to them, too.)
You do put his two eldest in harm's way, here. Granted that you also put Jole between them and it...
I like all of the proposed changes and think that they succinctly make clear how things stood between A and C.
Matthew wrote: "Lois wrote: "Not following this..."Perhaps I'm losing my mind, but didn't you recount to us a joke/story about Miles appearing before you with a blaster and making dire promises about what he'd d..."
There's this:
http://www.unclehugo.com/prod/ah-bujo...
Is that what you're recalling?
Additional:Psychological studies show that both sexes tend to freak out at the thought of their SOs having sex or falling in love with other people. But men tend to freak out harder at the thought of their partners having sexual relationships with others, and women at the thought of their partners developing emotional attachments to others. Presumably for evolutionary reasons men would be concerned about devoting resources to children that aren't theirs, and women about losing resources to rivals that usurp their place.
Women who tolerate polygamy generally do so because they have no choice, or are sufficiently well-cared for that objecting risks much but gains little. I can't see Cordelia being so repressed and putting up with it.
Coming back and finding that one's husband has both fallen in love and formed a physical relationship ought to have set off all kinds of primitive alarms deep in Cordelia's ape brain. The apparent fact that they either didn't go off or were completely suppressed means that Cordelia's psychology is way, way more unusual than I'd thought. And possibly that she, or Betans generally, are genuinely alien in their thinking.
Matthew wrote: "Lois wrote: "Not following this..."Perhaps I'm losing my mind, but didn't you recount to us a joke/story about Miles appearing before you with a blaster and making dire promises about what he'd d..."
Ah, that!
For those who came in late, this was a promotional piece I did some years back for, iirc, Cryoburn; the writer interviews her character.
http://www.unclehugo.com/prod/ah-bujo...
Ta, L.
Matthew wrote: "Additional:Psychological studies show that both sexes tend to freak out at the thought of their SOs having sex or falling in love with other people. But men tend to freak out harder at the though..."
I think that human thought and behavior are more plastic than this tidy model wants to allow. We may all start with ape-brains; we don't have to stop there.
But, if you insist on it, consider that C's ape-brain may well have been processing this as, "Oh, good -- another provider!"
Ta, L. Also susceptible to bio-evolutionary just-so stories, but... I know how s/a/u/s/a/g/e/s stories are made.
It's so nice to get invited to the grown-ups' table--that's how it felt. Thank you.