You know you’re an online bully when …
I was thinking about the online bullying of authors, after reading the article about Anne Rice and the bullying she experienced (she is not alone – lots of us have suffered from this sickening trend), and it struck me how strange it is that a person who might be perfectly nice in public can become a menacing troll online, under the cover of anonymity. There’s a petition directed at Amazon here, by the way, if you want to sign it. I did.
Impulse control
Online bullying is an impulsive behavior. When I’ve seen it happen and the comments start piling up, it’s almost inevitable that the original poster removes the original post and sometimes they end up deleting entire websites and online profiles as the fallout comes crashing down and it spirals out of control. People start or enter conversations without stopping to think. They let their fingers fly and allow passion to take charge. They get all riled up and start saying the craziest things. We don’t do this in polite company. When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not? This is why I believe not permitting anonymous posting on Amazon reviews and Amazon forums would stop this behavior. When people know that what they say will be assigned to their names, they pause to reflect and act like they would if they were standing in front of you.
Could it be that they just don’t realize?
Anyway, as my mind was wandering like it often does, I started thinking … what exactly is an online bully or a troll? What are the behaviors one might assign this moniker to? As I came up with a list of things I’ve seen and experienced as an author, I realized that it’s very possible some people might act as bullies while not realizing that’s what they’re doing. And then I was thinking that maybe those people would stop, or at least pause and consider their actions before taking them, if they had a list of bullying behaviors to which they could compare their own. With that in mind, I’ve created this Jeff-Foxworthy-inspired post.
You know you’re an online bully when …
You’re not a forum moderator, but you go to the forums and “police” them anyway, scolding, lecturing, or taking action against other posters when they do things that don’t follow your rules of proper behavior.
You see a message from someone online discussing an author’s poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment. And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious.
I’ve probably missed a few, but these are the ones that I’ve seen and/or experienced. If I think of any others, I’ll add them later; or you can comment below if you think of some I forgot.
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Elle wrote: Only when I mention bullies being exposed do I suddenly have the flames up my backside. No, actually, you mentioned EVERYONE WHO POSTS ON AMAZON being exposed.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I will never stop reviewing but I refuse to give my stalker an easy way to find me and you can't force me. So there goes all that "book discoverability" and prominent reviews SPAs practically beg for. I'm sure a lot of people will be like me - so the reviews will disappear for the most part. ..."I disagree vehemently with you. Only reader reviews will go, the consumer product opinions that, given how hard they fight negative reviews and how hard they seem to work to get the reviews, apparently matter to indie authors.
Authors will actually have no trouble filling that space with review exchanges with other authors, sockpuppet accounts, paid reviews, reviews by friends/family/loved-ones that illegally fail to disclose the connection, etc. Heck, if enough of those actually buy the books there may be a slight sales increase.
Until they realize that, gee, maybe those reviewers I chased off might have actually been book buyers. That maybe once readers stop reviewing on sites with odd requirements and review conditions the readers might actually stop paying attention to any of the reviews.
Maybe all these sales from author review circles are like some of the in home sales parties where You might see sales from my product x party but I now have to go to product parties given by my purchasers and buy an equal amount of their product so there is just a circle of the same funds going around with no one actually profiting.
Good luck getting your book discovered with the hundreds of thousands of monthly new indie releases once you chase off reviewers.
Elle wrote: "Ambrosia, you just republished the things I had already said in not only my post but all over this thread. And I don't think we disagree about bad author behavior. Like I've said many times, most o..."If you think all I did is republish things you've already said, then clearly YOU did not read MY post very carefully.
As far as how to handle bullying behavior on Amazon? I have not developed a solution - other than I don't spend much time reading reviews on Amazon any more.
But one suggestion could be for Amazon to eliminate the ability to reply to reviews, and for authors (and authors' relatives) to control themselves and not read reviews. That way reviewers cannot be terrorized and discouraged from leaving reviews, and authors would not get their feelings hurt. If someone truly leaves a review that violates Amazon's rules, then Amazon can pull that review.
Elle wrote: "♡Amazon is broken. It needs fixing. What's your solution? "It is a community designed for billions to participate, so there is no solution to be had. But I would suggest the same thing I thought Anne Rice should have done; quit posting there when it gets rough. It's not worth the frustration. This is why I believe she was baiting the members there and not truly being bullied, as she kept going back for more and more over weeks. She was deliberately obtuse, and being her normal passive-aggressive self. I think the 'author bullying' problem is not nearly the issue authors believe it is, I think their own self denial in how they contribute to their own problems is far more real. But I worry about the many newbies with their new Kindles who wander blindly into the communities only to get bamboozled by all the fake reviews, spamming, fighting...etc. None of that is helpful or supportive.
Ambrosia wrote: "But one suggestion could be for Amazon to eliminate the ability to reply to reviews, and for authors (and authors' relatives) to control themselves and not read reviews. That way reviewers cannot be terrorized and discouraged from leaving reviews, and authors would not get their feelings hurt. If someone truly leaves a review that violates Amazon's rules, then Amazon can pull that review."That's a much better solution than yanking away everyone's right to privacy. Good call.
JLC and others: I don't post on my blog about bullying as a business person. I posted as a concerned author and reader, a member of a community that's very important to me as a participant, not a person who makes money there. If I was acting purely out of a motivation to sell books, I would have done nothing at all. I would have kept my mouth shut, put my head down, and ignored the problem.
I took a huge risk putting my thoughts down on permanent paper. I knew that ... but I also underestimated the vitriol here, the attack-mode people would go into.
I probably shouldn't have been so naive. I generally avoid goodreads for this reason as do many other authors who are also good people like I am, who would never dream of bullying or harassing anyone. I know many of you are tired of this issue and feel like you've been burned by other people. It's definitely a problem. I hope you find a solution that doesn't include insulting people who are trying to help and who want to talk about issues that are important to all of us.
I see pitchforks coming and fires. The posts are now coming fast and furious, attacking my intelligence, my honesty, my motivation, my reputation, my state of mind, my emotional state, my integrity, pretty much everything under the sun. And if I react as a person with feelings, that's just me deflecting and running away from a well-reasoned response. I simply cannot win.
I can't keep up with all of it, and I realize that the harder I try, the uglier the comments get. It serves no purpose to keep banging my head against this wall. As has been well pointed out to me, the more I speak, the more readers I will lose. And since I am not speaking to anyone who wants to listen, it's stupid to continue anyway.
I wish you all a good evening and a happier tomorrow. I'll be disconnecting my blog feed from Goodreads to avoid having this happen in the future. I assume that will not delete this conversation, and certainly the blog post will remain on my site regardless.
I will also no longer be following this thread or replying to anything here. If you do wish to discuss it with me personally, there's always email.
Elle wrote: "Erin wrote: "While I find everyone on here trying to explain to you as readers how we feel about the petition in a very reasonable way, you are not listening to us, Elle. And you just called all of..."Elle, please go back and read what you wrote. You said flames up your backside, people removing reviews, the bullies winning again. What do you mean by that? That is very passive aggressive. I'm tired. sigh.
And, for the love of all that's decent, authors need to find another word than "bully" -- you seriously demean bully victims and undermine bully prevention efforts. Words like attack, threat, or troll are better. There is absolutely no way (short of a threat that needs to be turned over to law enforcement) that a not perceived as positive star rating or even the nastiest of reviews is bullying anyone. I am so tired of seeing someone call a rating with no review "fake" or "bullying" (even if just hastily done from a kindle touchscreen a reviewer hates to type on until they can get back to their keyboard to write the real review -- incidentally attacking that no-review star rating in the groups here, blog posts, social media, etc. is not likely to encourage that review to ever get posted). Even if a review never gets added, a star rating does not bully anyone.
I am perfectly comfortable knowing that amazon has real names when issues are flagged to their attention, I am comfortable knowing law enforcement can obtain those real names when actual bullying or threats happen.
I am not comfortable letting every troll on the internet (authors, reviewers, or just amazon customers who don't review or participate in forums) obtain identity theft and stalker-aiding information.
What legitimate reason would any amazon community member have for needing to know my personal information? To carry the online nastiness over into real life?
I should add that my being against forcing every retail customer participating in site forums or reviews to reveal personal information has nothing to do with how I review on amazon -- as a verified purchaser with my real name because that is my choice (I also have no children to protect from stalkers and whackjobs).
I have been attacked for writing a four-star review from an indie who threatened to sue me for breach of contract because his website clearly laid out how all reviews had to be written and anything under 5-stars had to be fully justified to him in private with line edits so he could correct and only if approved by him and in the format he specified could it be posted.
I'm still waiting for the lawsuit papers to be served. Admittedly, I had picked up the hardcopy of the book at a school fundraiser so it was not a verified purchaser review—but, seriously, breach of contract? Amazon did remove his comments but they keep having to do so because he is still persisting.
This should be required reading for authors: http://dearauthor.com/features/letter...
And just because I love how this author puts things, this isn't such a bad link either: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/07/17...
Elle wrote: "ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "Elle wrote: "BUT, the idea that someone would come after me to hurt me for no other reason than they just had a bad day, or they're jealous (some of the biggest bullie...""I don't need to do due diligence just because I read an article online and signed a petition whose goals I agree with. Seriously. Do you really think that?"
I do.
Your signature is your word.
♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "If you understand it and support it display your real name. Otherwise who's going to take you seriously? What needs to happen is one of these authors should write a blog asking everyone who ever re..."+1. All authors so petitioning should comment on reviews asking that real names be added or the reviews deleted.
Elle wrote: "...Bullies cease being bullies when they have to put their name to their words. ..."Tell that to the bully prevention sites. They really need to know that solution. You should volunteer in hospitals to comfort the bully victims in as patients with the knowledge that since they saw their attacker and because of the pattern of abuse that currently defines bullying know their attacker so very well by their real names that the bullying now magically stops and they are safe again on their online and real life areas.
To find some U.S. ones check out http://stopbullying.gov ; I'm sure lots of bully and cyber-bully prevention organizations will be just delighted to have your support and support you in turn. I work with a lot of them and they are always happy to have volunteers and donations. Very worthwhile cause.
Do you think a judge would agree to your "legal definition" of bullying? Would a judge hear a case where a customer product opinion or star rating was being equated to bullying yet not considered a criminal activity to be reported to law enforcement? That the legal definition of bullying in any way refers to a single incident by a single person that happened once in an online post from a stranger? Not what our legal team or how any of the charities and schools I work with define it but I guess your state may have different laws and you are the lawyer.
I just don't see how bullying equates to anything in a star rating or a book review that would not be turned over to law enforcement or removed as being against site TOS or review guidelines. I absolutely do see that amazon and other sites need to be more proactive at deleting threatening content even if it means deleting book promotional content or alienating long time site participants. No attacks against anyone should be allowed.
Do you really think fake accounts with fake "real names" are beyond your average troll? Or that a petition touted by Ann Rice and some of the worst attackers and nastiest authors on the internet will in any way help?
Are you trying to discourage readers from reviewing or from trusting what reviews are left when such measures are put in place? Good job.
And guess what? I'm not going around rating and reviewing your books negatively because of what you posted here, nor am I asking any friends to. You are just going on my list of Do-not-review authors (which I know better than to keep here). I'm just doing nothing.
I am this close to never reading another indie book as long as I live except by authors I already trust. One more post from anyone equating customer product opinions within site TOS and review guidelines to bullying tonight may just make that decision for me.
Mama wrote: "I have seen it work.A local news site now requires you to sign in with your FB account to comment on news stories..."
Is facebook now requiring real names?
I don't see where not completely reading a book you rate or review equates to bullying by anyone's definition. Not that, again, I ever equate any reviews within site TOS prohibiting attacks on other site members and within review guidelines with bullying.Another reviewer expressed the best answer I heard by saying something along the lines of "I don't have to drink the whole glass to know the milk is sour."
It's not making sense to me how amazon support or authors even know know whether or not someone read a book or what their real reading experience with that books was. Well, I guess, they accept it at face value if a reviewer attempting honesty said how much of a book they read in their review. But I don't see how they can determine if a reader read a book or how that determines if a review is bullying or not. Or how real names would help tell if a person read the book completely. Heck, even posting kindle last page read doesn't mean a lot if the whole household is reading the same book. (I'm not sure amazon even keeps that info if you clear last page read under manage my kindle or don't sync reading progress on all your devices.)
If a dozen people read the same book or even the original post on this thread, I really doubt everyone of them got the same context, the reading experience, as everyone else. It just doesn't happen.
Reading is subjective. That doesn't make it bullying. I am not in any pack or gang of reviewers. Yes, I follow/fan/friend other reviewers so see their reviews and posts; I just don't consider that being part of a pack of bullies. That is just how review sites work and social media are set up, you see things on your feed -- readers read reviews and posts by readers, often but not always leading to more book sales and more reviews. Break those connections to get rid of perceived "packs of bullying reviewers" and what's left? Nice 5-star reviews following more stringent review guidelines where reviewers feel like we are doing homework to write a book report and if not glowing enough it will be deleted? Who the heck wants to read those types of reviews?
The answer is to have sites crack down on the trolls and attacking content. On amazon, goodreads and elsewhere.
The answer is not to crack down on all community participants. It's not to violate privacy and offer up data to potential stalkers and sociopaths, it's not to equate social media connection, friends or links with "packs of bullies."
I think it would help greatly if likes and up/down voting never contributed to display order or any rankings whatsoever. Getting rid of up/down voting of reviews on amazon would cut back on fake sockpuppet accounts created solely to vote. Change reviews on amazon to be like reviews here -- the reviewer can go ahead and delete problem comments much quicker than amazon can get around to. Less to report as abusive due to reviewers deleting troll/threatening/attacking/hate-speech comments on their reviews would mean more time for amazon to handle remaining reports of abuse. Unlike on goodreads, I seldom see real book discussions in the amazon review comments. And the forums, well, the bad ones I can avoid without impacting my book purchases or book reviewing. Heck, someone could be all,over amazon forums right now attacking me and I would neither know nor care.
Jo wrote: BTW - by saying that you will not read an author's work just because they signed something that you personally do not agree with? That is a sad thing, but your loss. It could be seen (not saying it is) as a form of bullying. See now how things can be taken out of context?Why is that a sad thing? Why is that a loss?
Do you know how many books there are in the world? I will never be able to read all the books I want to read. Crossing 100 authors off my list of authors I want to read because those authors signed a petition I don't agree with wouldn't even be noticed.
I really don't understand why anyone thinks it's sad that someone would choose to make a reading choice for any reason at all. What is sad about choosing one author over another? What author has written something so spectacular that not reading it will cause my life to descend into a downward spiral?
Seriously, this has to be one of the nuttiest things people say.
Hey, my real name is "Debbie" — what does my choice of whether or not to use my real name have to do with anything? I had six Debbie's in my high school home room, one shared my maiden name and another my married name. My name is so common that I used to get odd crap showing up on my credit report, including things from before I was born. I assure you I can be just as nasty or just as nice under my real name as I would be under a screen name. I'm way too old to modulate my online behavior and words any differently than I do my real life behavior and words—except when acting in a professional capacity or effectively as site admin (I do a lot of tech support where I may not exactly be an employee but do represent the company and behave appropriately).
Actually, I tend to be nicer online because tone can be so misunderstood never mind language issues. I do have a few issues, a big one being calling every objectionable, mean, nasty, trolling, attacking anything "bullying." Ditto for attacking rape victims and any form of hate speech. There are times you do need to feed the trolls or issues get swept under the rug, supporters on both sides chased off, and the very real victims feel completely on their own with no support and only trolls speaking out.
And in both real life and online, I don't muzzle easily if I consider it my territory (hey, my reviews are my reviews). I believe the best way to deal with people you don't agree with is to avoid whatever they are peddling, even books. I have more than I can read in a lifetime and I doubt I am the only reader who feels that way. I doubt I'll even manage to read all my preorders of favorite author books releasing this year over the next few years.
So what's the incentive for me to risk drama from potentially problematic authors? Maybe because I have reader and author friends and we enjoy our book communities; maybe I don't consider having friends on social media as being in a pack of bullies. Maybe some of us feel protective of some of the book communities our content built (yes, I realize without authors there are no books and no book communities but also without readers for those books why would authors bother publishing?) and that have given us so much enjoyment. Maybe, just maybe if our reviews were not attacked or bashed as being the wrong type of review for not complying with the author's idea of a proper review; maybe if we were allowed to discuss books without having to comply with any author expectations -- well, maybe we might actually read more with more discussions and more reviews to drown out the nasty ones that eventually support removes as violating guidelines.
And maybe we could go back to authors participating in our book communities as readers and not seeing us as obligated to provide book promotional content or as marketing targets.
Maybe that might be more effective than making reviewers so nervous about posting sufficient information to be stalked and attacked in real life that they, unlike the trolls and attackers, quit the book communities. Maybe that would leave more resources for site support to deal with the problem members while the rest of us went about enjoying our sites.
I'm sorry to run on. But this post is such a typical reviewers-have-to-whatever post that I'm tired of seeing it. I am solely responsible for what I do, not what trolls or actual bullies do. I see no reason why I have to change my reviews because of what they do. I don't run with a pack of bullies. I am only obligated to,legally, within copyright obtain an author's books. I don't see why I have to reveal anything to anyone on the internet, not even to post a consumer product opinion. And I really don't see how that prevents bullying (although, again like a broken record, there is nothing about a compliant-with-TOS/guidelines review or rating that is bullying anyone).
I am so convinced many of these posts happen to drive off reader reviews so the non-consumer reviews remain or because book sales/reviews fell off and drama was needed to increase activity on the books to gain more discoverability. Backfire in both cases with me. I'm commenting here because demeaning bully victims sets me off; but, you won't see me shelving, rating, reviewing, or sharing posts about the author's books. Actually, I have't even looked at the author's books; I don't even know if she writes in genres I might read.
I will not let an online store tell me I have to tell their other customers jackshit about anything including my real name. If they change the TOS to require, I just won't buy from them or participate anymore; after manually removing all my content I will have them delete my account.
what a staggeringly ill-advised post....unless you're trolling.
y'know—trolling?
as by posting wildly unpopular opinions to inflame passionate responses and then nobly retiring for the night moaning about being a misunderstood martyr to the cause of... something or other?
to say nothing of the sheer irony of a windywicketed bossybritches pontificating on the internet about who gets to pontificate on the internet, and how.
you, madam, are clownshoe as fuck.
have fun picking a new pseudonym!
Tsk, tsk, Julio -- the OP gets to define trolls and bullies; none of us readers are expected to be able to read definitions or do any research or in any way in our real lives know anything about it.All of us here are, by her definitions and several comments made, in a pack of bullies that ganged up on this post even after she flounced. (Which,,hurray, won me a stamp on my Flounce BINGO card!)
Hey, who the hell are you? You're not in my bully pack! Oh no, our bully gang is infiltrated by someone I've never interacted with ... Oh my goodness me, you can see all the one-star ratings and bad reviews I've written here on goodreads that prove what a heinous nasty attacking bullying troll I am...
(Where's that sarcasm font when you need it?)
Elle wrote: "Bullies cease being bullies when they have to put their name to their words."Kids being bullied at school to their face - they know the bullies' names. Adults being bullied at work or by their spouse - they know the bullies' names.
These bullies don't cease being bullies when everyone knows their identity. Cute idea, but bullies don't bully because it's "anonymous."
Elle, if Anne Rice and other authors like yourself feel reviewers or whomever leave reviews/opinions for products on Amazon and elsewhere (such as IMDB for movies and Yelp for restaurants) must have their true identities listed on their reviews, then the same rules should apply for authors, correct? Authors then shouldn't hide behind their pseudonyms if they're asking the same for the consumers/readers who post reviews? If an author is going to interact with a reviewer then the author should have their real identity out there, just as the same as the reviewer. If authors are asking for all these "rules" for reviewers, then the same type of rules should apply for authors.
Also Elle, do you read your reviews here and on other sites such as Amazon, B&N, All Romance Ebooks and on blogs. If so, why? I always thought reviews were for readers not authors?
What I think we'll see more of if the author petition to require real names on amazon reviews and forums actually works:
which may actually be the real goal of that petition - chase off reader reveiews in favor of ones more controlled by author specified requirements.
(image lifted from a post on booklikes)
Elle, I really do appreciate the fact that you are coming at this from a different perspective. And I agree with some of the things you've written. I wish you'd stopped before including the list. Even though it was written in socially acceptable language and positioned as an educational tool of sorts, it just felt like more finger pointing.I'm not a part of any gang mentality. In fact this is the first comment I've posted on this big, fat mess. I'm not being incited because someone told me to be. I'm smart and can figure it out on my own.
Words matter. Behavior matters. We can't control others, but we can control our reaction to others. I probably wouldn't have thought twice about going ahead and reading a book that had a negative review. But when that author responds publicly and makes some wildly inappropriate comments...that pretty much makes my decision. The reviewer didn't sway my opinion, the author did. Maybe that is what is inciting me.
Elle wrote: "Only when I mention bullies being exposed do I suddenly have the flames up my backside.I really don't know why I even bother trying to do anything to help. It's very disheartening. Bullies win again."
Those people who put "flames up" your "backside" are NOT bullies. This is a DISCUSSION - NO ONE "wins" or "loses." Thus you saying "bullies win again" is missing the point entirely.
A relevant quote from http://dearauthor.com/features/letter..."...you don’t really hear guys like Oliver and Bourdain complain about “foodie bullies,” even though... gotten more than a handful of scathing reviews..."
"... what often happens in these situations is that the author in question, who feels personally attacked ...sort of combines all of the individual critical voices together and calls “bully,” not because there is a repeated pattern of victimization, but because more than one reader criticizes the author’s commercial product..."
I think that particular article defines bullying very clearly.
Elle wrote: "I see pitchforks coming and fires. The posts are now coming fast and furious, attacking my intelligence, my honesty, my motivation, my reputation, my state of mind, my emotional state, my integrity, pretty much everything under the sun."No, just disagreements. That you see them as "pitchforks" and "fires" and "attacking" says more about your PERCEPTION than reality.
Amazon already has the private information of every one of its users. In the event of actual harassment, attacks, and 'bullying' Amazon may hand that information over to the authorities. Therefore, Amazon reviews aren't actually anonymous at all. That said, there's no reason that you or any other author needs the real names of your readers.
I agree that there is a huge problem with online bullying. I actually agree with a lot of what D.A. says, as I know she fights against these sorts of things. But...It seems to me that these sorts of discussions generally split into two camps - those pro authors and those pro reviewers. When that sort of thing happens, there is a quick downward spiral where people stick to their picket lines and refuse to find a middle ground.
But, the truth is, the problem doesn't just lie with bully authors or bully reviewers, it lies with both. And I've seen that one side feeds into the other, making the other camp shout louder and raise their placards higher because they believe that their point is more valid. It gets to the point where neither side listens to the other anymore and absolutely no progress is made.
Each forum or website has its list of behavioural guidelines, a lot of which go unread unless a user is forced to read them (and even that is hard, if you wait long enough to show that you may have read it). But, apart from these guidelines, none of us have ever received training in how to behave on the internet. You might think that it goes without saying, but bullying does become easier when you aren't face to face with someone, when there's that distance involved. It's easy to forget that the other people involved in conversations and such are real people.
However, aside from the fact that bullying on the internet is a real problem, whether you're talking now about author/reviewers or other sites, forcing people to use their real names will not solve the problem. If someone believes that they're untouchable with a nickname/pseudonym, especially in an age where IPs are already traceable, then they will find a loophole where they can pose under a supposedly real name, or will just post as themselves still believing they're invincible.
I believe that the best thing that sites can do, and the best way to better protect users, is to make it harder to create multiple accounts. People will still try to find a way around it, but it will mean more accountability via traceability. Perhaps Amazon can make sure that it's only people that have purchased content at some point can comment on their forums? That way, identity is already verified.
Incidentally, I personally have no problems with using my real name, in some places, but I still like to be able to use a nickname in some areas (if we weren't able to roleplay in online gaming, for instance, it would make it less interesting). There are others who do need to protect their identity and I wouldn't want their safety net to be taken away or their fun removed just because of people looking for an easier solution to a wider problem.
D.A. - Please don't mock bully victims. wrote: "Hey, my real name is "Debbie" — what does my choice of whether or not to use my real name have to do with anything? I had six Debbie's in my high school home room, one shared my maiden name and an..."+1000
Because obviously actual trolls wouldn't find all sorts of new and creative ways to be trolls while everyone else is bummed.
Guys..you do know what's coming next. The normal run to STGRB about how this post was bullied. It makes me sick to my stomach. SOMEONE disagreed with me!! Oh GAWD I've been bullied.
Elle wrote: "I'm not Anne Rice's mouthpiece. I don't know her, I don't know her history, I don't even read her books. I just read an article about her and it got me thinking. I read the petition and the things it's trying to stop from happening, I am also interested in stopping. Bullying. In all forms.I saw that stop goodreads bullies site once and I never went back. A posse of people going after other people is just awful. It's unprofessional and rude and yes, bullying. It fits my guidelines that I outlined in my post perfectly."
Oh dear Lord, this deserves a *facedesk* so massive I could give myself brain damage. Just for the record, I saw this in the feed of some of my GR friends and came over to see what they were commenting on so furiously.
So...you don't know that Anne Rice has a history of attacking reviewers on her FB page and directing her fans to go abuse them and down vote their reviews.
You say yourself that the goodreads bullies site is a site that promotes and engages in bullying.
So these two entities come together for a petition and you throw in your support.
Do you see where I'm going with this? You are supporting something by people that you say are promoting bullying...yet somehow what they are endorsing will stop the behavior they are engaging in. If you don't see the logic fail in that then I just don't know what to say.
It seems that Ms. Casey makes quite the habit of The Amazon review
(view spoiler)
This is such a timely post, because I was just about to buy one of your books, but that's money saved now. A book is an object. A product you sell to be consumed by those who pay for it. And to be reviewed by its consumers as any other product.
Bullying is a serious problem.
Appropriating the word and twisting it because you do not possess the professional know-how to realise that less than glowing reviews from people who choose not to use their real name to protect their identity online (as they should!) is NOT bullying, just proves to me that my money will be put to better use supporting another author who knows how to behave professionally.
Isa wrote:A book is an object. A product you sell to be consumed by those who pay for it. And to b..."
Exactly! A book is a product, like a car. As a consumer if I wanted to leave a bad review about a car, I could write:
*I disagree with this manufacturer because they took the govt bailout (like commenting on author behavior)
*I don’t like the appearance of this car. I think the headlights are too close together (like disliking a book cover/blurb)
*I test drove the car and I didn’t like the car. There was a lot of road noise (like reading a sample)
*I bought the car and it spent four days in the shop in the first two months of ownership (like buying the book and being disappointed in it.
As long as I give a reason for the low rating, the person reading the review can decide for themselves if those reasons made a difference to them and their buying decision. They could decide they don’t care if the manufacture took a bailout; since all the money was paid back with interest. They could think the headlights being close together makes the car looks unique and cool. The road noise may not be a factor for them. But for someone who doesn’t want to support a company that took the bailout or who has an extreme dislike of road noise, my review would contain useful information that may save them time and/or money.
If I did write such a review about a car, do you think I would have to worry about GM, Ford, etc. responding to it or tracking me down? Do you think they would have a hissy fit or say my review wasn’t valid because I didn’t post under my real name? I will tell you what they would do, absolutely nothing. They made a quality product, put it out in the market, spent money on legitimate advertising, and let it stand on its own merit. As soon as authors can do the same and completely stay away from reviews the problem as you perceive it, will go away.
Elle wrote: "Janyaa wrote: "I have to say, as a person with a rare/ unique name, I do not want my real name to be used under my reviews. It would be extremely easy to find me with a rudimentary search. Even if ..."((Here's your solution: Don't post reviews on Amazon. Don't go on Amazon forums. Sorry it's not what you want to hear, but it works to solve the problems you're seeing. The problem is that a very active group of asshat bullies have ruined a great place for all the good people like you who just want to do the right thing. That's why rules exist - because there will always be asshats who make the wrong decisions when left to their own devices.))
Here's your solution: don't be an author. Don't write a book because there WILL be readers out there who won't like it and will say so- on Amazon, Goodreads, Booklikes, their own blogs, FB, Twitter, etc. Sorry it's not what you want to hear, but that's life. The problem is that every person who uploads a .doc considers themselves Hemingway or Tolstoy and can't handle not being idolized for doing so and wants to put a stop to anything not resembling abject worship and are ruining the idea of consumers/readers talking about books- or haven't you noticed how many bloggers have openly stated they won't review SPAs anymore because of this crap? Who's that hurting- the blogger or the authors? That's why rules exist- to make sure everyone follows them... including authors.
Elle, people can choose whatever reason they like for not reading a book. Personally, I often choose not to read a book because it's not available in a hard copy. I DETEST ebooks. Also, if I have seen an author attacking other reviewers, I will decide not to read them. Why bother putting myself through that hassle and stress?
And I can understand people who might decide not to read the works of someone they learnt is a bit of a tool. I've been iffy about reading any OSC since hearing about how he's a racist biggot. I know people who have decided not to touch it. I know people who have decided to read it anyway, and loved it.
Another big thing that a lot of people don't seem to have thought of in this... debate...
Amazon own GR now. Seriously, if they make people have their real names on Amazon, how long will it be before real names appear on GR?
An employer can search my name and see that I'm one of the people who didn't like that book. Are you suggesting that I won't be hired because I didn't like a book and I was courteous and professional about how I shared that opinion? Because that sounds pretty silly to me.
No one actually said this. What they said was that the TYPE of book they read might cause issues. If they were applying for a job, and the potential employer googled them and found out they read a lot of books about drugs, crime, and rape, do you not think that might affect their decision to hire the person? Over, say, someone who reads a lot of... Science reference books?
You ask if I have called you a bully because you didn't spell out your name. Where is that coming from? Where in my post did I say ANYWHERE that people who don't give their names are bullies??
I believe the point that KarLyn was trying to convey was that her only real "crime" according to your post, is not having her full name showing. And that site mentioned have her listed as a nasty piece of work, so... Surely it's as likely to be that as it is anything else.
That's how SENSIBLE these people can be. [/sarcasm]
It's not really a choice is it? If you are being stalked, the police will tell you, don't make yourself known in any way. So you stay off the internet, you stay off Facebook, you don't post pictures of yourself, you just don't make yourself available. It's dangerous to do otherwise. That's not me saying I don't care about victims. Hello? This post is about victims of bullying and a call to end bullying coming from ANY source, be they readers or authors. It just needs to stop.
So, MrsJoseph should just... Avoid the internet? For the rest of her days?
It doesn't sound like her situation will be resolved by staying away from people for a few months, or years... She should just throw away her phone and computer, and go live in a cabin somewhere?
"Look, I'm really sorry this shit happened to you, but you're getting in the way of me having things how I want, so just, go and disappear somewhere, 'kay? It's safer."
I'm sorry. I know you say you didn't mean it that way, but you can't deny that it comes off a little bit like the safety and happiness of another human being(a number of other human beings, in fact) rates lower on the scheme of things than knowing who is reviewing books on the internet , where the owners of the site can delete said reviews, and pass info on to the authorities if things were to actually become worrisome/dangerous.
I'm really quite sad that Elle's reaction has apparently been to just avoid reading the rest of the comments here. Vehement disagreement has been taken to be pitchforks and a crowd coming after her... And it seems that nothing anyone has said or done here has changed her mind. It seems that she prioritises authors above all others and is not even willing to say that hey, maybe a compromise of some sort would be better, or that hey, maybe authors should just stop engaging with their own reviews. No one has offered me a better solution to ridding Amazon of bullies. You've had plenty to say about how wrong I am, but what is the solution that you have for the problem? Because ignoring it isn't working, in case you haven't noticed.
I have a solution: better review management and reporting. If an author is TRULY being bullied, then a swift and quick reaction to delete those posts so that it stops. I would rather see Amazon pour the money into that sort of thing than just require all of us to plaster our real names everywhere. There has already been at least one author who has wanted to sue a reviewer because the review was negative! There is real danger to reviewers that needs to be acknowledged here.
I bet Jeff Foxworthy is pissed!And p.s. "impulsive behavior" is defined as such:
Behaviors that occur quickly without control, planning, or consideration of the consequences of that behavior. Impulsive behaviors tend to be connected with immediate positive consequences (for example, relief from emotional pain). However, in the long-term there may be a number of negative consequences, such as greater emotional distress or regret.
…none of these posts appear to met that criteria.
Perhaps you should re-name your post? Things that make me butt hurt seems apropos.
A forum where members can freely exchange ideas, no matter how controversial, without fear of repercussions, is not broken.
The opposite, in fact would be true, were such a forum to exist where every word might be taken as an offense and subject the poster to possible retaliation.
Such a forum, actually could not exist, as no one would post there.