You know you’re an online bully when …
I was thinking about the online bullying of authors, after reading the article about Anne Rice and the bullying she experienced (she is not alone – lots of us have suffered from this sickening trend), and it struck me how strange it is that a person who might be perfectly nice in public can become a menacing troll online, under the cover of anonymity. There’s a petition directed at Amazon here, by the way, if you want to sign it. I did.
Impulse control
Online bullying is an impulsive behavior. When I’ve seen it happen and the comments start piling up, it’s almost inevitable that the original poster removes the original post and sometimes they end up deleting entire websites and online profiles as the fallout comes crashing down and it spirals out of control. People start or enter conversations without stopping to think. They let their fingers fly and allow passion to take charge. They get all riled up and start saying the craziest things. We don’t do this in polite company. When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not? This is why I believe not permitting anonymous posting on Amazon reviews and Amazon forums would stop this behavior. When people know that what they say will be assigned to their names, they pause to reflect and act like they would if they were standing in front of you.
Could it be that they just don’t realize?
Anyway, as my mind was wandering like it often does, I started thinking … what exactly is an online bully or a troll? What are the behaviors one might assign this moniker to? As I came up with a list of things I’ve seen and experienced as an author, I realized that it’s very possible some people might act as bullies while not realizing that’s what they’re doing. And then I was thinking that maybe those people would stop, or at least pause and consider their actions before taking them, if they had a list of bullying behaviors to which they could compare their own. With that in mind, I’ve created this Jeff-Foxworthy-inspired post.
You know you’re an online bully when …
You’re not a forum moderator, but you go to the forums and “police” them anyway, scolding, lecturing, or taking action against other posters when they do things that don’t follow your rules of proper behavior.
You see a message from someone online discussing an author’s poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment. And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious.
I’ve probably missed a few, but these are the ones that I’ve seen and/or experienced. If I think of any others, I’ll add them later; or you can comment below if you think of some I forgot.
please don't allow these individuals to affect you, they're merely Sheeple. it's an actual term as defined in Wikipedia:
Sheeple (a portmanteau of "sheep" and "people") is a term that highlights the herd behavior of people by likening them to sheep, a herd animal. The term is used to describe those who voluntarily acquiesce to a suggestion without critical analysis or research.
they're as effective as a herd of turtles stampeding through a track of peanut butter to the educated mind...
HJ wrote: " This is why I believe not permitting anonymous posting on Amazon reviews and Amazon forums would stop this behavior."Ask any law enforcement officer what they think of anyone putting their real name out publicly on the internet.
Has no one ever heard of identity theft, etc?
Sorry, but I do think that the petition is incredibly naive and short-sighted.
Many/most authors write under pen names/pseudonyms. I'm guessing that the petition does NOT ask for authors to use their real names? "
Agreed.
I've been stalked by an ex for several years now. The only reason he hasn't found me here is that he's not a reader. He's located me on EVERY other social networking site that I've ever joined.
I've moved STATES to get away from this man.
I can't take jobs that post my personal (work) contact information online - because he googles me regularly and has called me at jobs if the phone number is listed.
I have had to delete apps from my phone because the app(s) shared user info with other app users.
In fact, he reminded me that he was still hunting me down just.last.week.
So, I can no longer take place in conversations because yall don't know how to act??!
I guess I'm supposed to huddle in my home as far away from the internet as possible because YOU don't like what some other people say??
How is this fair to the millions of people who have been stalked or currently being stalked????
The crap that goes on at Amazon is NOT BULLYING. Its people acting like assholes. Which is not the same thing.
You wrote, "What are the behaviors one might assign this moniker to? As I came up with a list..", then you proceed to list behaviors which IN YOUR OPINION, NOT GR's terms of service, constitute bullying.
Then you talk about, "scolding, lecturing, or taking action against other posters when they do things that DON'T FOLLOW YOUR RULES OF PROPER BEHAVIOR" being a form of bullying.
By your definition, wouldn't this post be bullying? I see scolding and lecturing by someone who thinks I should follow their rules of proper behavior. Maybe I'm a victim of bullying and don't even know it!
I have to say, as a person with a rare/ unique name, I do not want my real name to be used under my reviews. It would be extremely easy to find me with a rudimentary search. Even if I'm not a "troll," it would mean I'd feel uncomfortable giving an honestly constructive review on anything for fear of some crazy whack job deciding to see who I am and how to get a hold of me.Here's another example why I think requiring real names could be detrimental. Let's say I posted a review of a risque/ explicit book. If my very conservative workplace decided to do a random internet search (not unheard of in this day and age) and objected to my choice of reading material, it could influence or alter how they treat me in the workplace.
We've already seen some examples of this in the context of Facebook.
I posted a comment that sympathized with your troll issues, but I have to think there is a happy medium somewhere between these two extremes.
Also, just wanted to add, I don't agree with the above poster's comment or feel that your blog post in any way qualifies as bullying as per the guidelines you wrote about. I think a primary component to trolling/ bullying is that it entails a personally directed attack on a specific person. Merely stating your ideas of what the definition of trolling/ bullying would entail does not fit that criteria. I happen to agree with most of what you've written, Elle. I do think it's an issue that should be addressed. I just think there needs to be a better solution to the problem.
HJ wrote: "" This is why I believe not permitting anonymous posting on Amazon reviews and Amazon forums would stop this behavior."Ask any law enforcement officer what they think of anyone putting their real..."
People put their real names and IDs on the internet all the time without issues. But put up bullying commments and your real name? Yeah, that could be a problem for obvious reasons. That's my point. You're not going to be an asshole if you know people will realize its YOU. You walk around in polite society and behave yourself all day long, safely without worry about being stalked. You can do the same online. Just don't be a bully.
Janyaa wrote: "Also, just wanted to add, I don't agree with the above poster's comment or feel that your blog post in any way qualifies as bullying as per the guidelines you wrote about. I think a primary compone..."When a bully comes onto your product page and bullies or goes onto a blog site or other online place and mentions you or your book, they ARE targeting you directly, which does fit my criteria exactly.
P. S. wrote: "please don't allow these individuals to affect you, they're merely Sheeple. it's an actual term as defined in Wikipedia:
Sheeple (a portmanteau of "sheep" and "people") is a term that highlights ..."
they do run in packs, but that doesn't make them harmless. Believe me, trolls and bullies can have devastating effects on people's lives.
Mrs JosephYes, it is bullying. And it's being an asshole. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can be both! (not you, personally, just "you" as in any person).
While I feel very bad for you as a victim of stalking, that doesn't change my thoughts or position on this subject. Anonymity allows bullies to thrive. Amazon's marketplace and forums are out of control and this is the only solution that I can see.
In2books wrote: "You wrote, "What are the behaviors one might assign this moniker to? As I came up with a list..", then you proceed to list behaviors which IN YOUR OPINION, NOT GR's terms of service, constitute b..."
You may not realize it, but this feed you're reading is from my personal blog. It was not written on Goodreads as a list of policies for Goodreads. It's a blog post about the subject of bullying and how to identify bullying behavior. Did you see yourself in the post? Did anything I say offend you and resemble things that you've done in the past? Then I suggest you take a closer look at your online behavior.
Here's my message: "Don't be an online bully. Here's what online bullying looks like." If you consider THAT statement to be bullying then please avoid my page in the future, because nothing I say will ever help you.
Janyaa wrote: "I have to say, as a person with a rare/ unique name, I do not want my real name to be used under my reviews. It would be extremely easy to find me with a rudimentary search. Even if I'm not a "trol..."Here's your solution: Don't post reviews on Amazon. Don't go on Amazon forums. Sorry it's not what you want to hear, but it works to solve the problems you're seeing. The problem is that a very active group of asshat bullies have ruined a great place for all the good people like you who just want to do the right thing. That's why rules exist - because there will always be asshats who make the wrong decisions when left to their own devices.
I saw this on my feed on Goodreads. So you must have your personal blog set up to feed to GR. I didn't go to your personal space and track you down. And yes, you did offend me. Both of these, "You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.""You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author." Offend me very much! I can read the back of the book or a book's description and if it is full of spelling errors, run on sentences, etc. I know it is not a book for me. By reading one paragraph! Much less the whole dang book. I wouldn't waste my time reading this book. If I were so inclined I wouldn't hesitate to post a review saying, "I'm skipping this book due to poor grammar and editing." I have many friends that would want to know that. About author behavior, I personally think if the behavior is in regard to books/reviews/reviewers and/or the author was a bigot, racist etc. I would not want to support that author and appreciate knowing about it. So yes, according to your definition I'm a bully and wouldn't change a thing. Please explain to me why you think you get to put rules of behavior on me that the site I'm on doesn't restrict. Then explain how that isn't expecting me to follow, YOUR rules of behavior?
Elle wrote: "Janyaa wrote: "I have to say, as a person with a rare/ unique name, I do not want my real name to be used under my reviews. It would be extremely easy to find me with a rudimentary search. Even if ..."Why won't the same rule apply to (you)authors? Don't read their reviews. Don't get on Amazon forums or Goodreads and interact. Can't be bullied if you not there.
Elle wrote: "People put their real names and IDs on the internet all the time without issues. But put up bullying commments and your real name? Yeah, that could be a problem for obvious reasons. That's my point. You're not going to be an asshole if you know people will realize its YOU. You walk around in polite society and behave yourself all day long, safely without worry about being stalked. You can do the same online. Just don't be a bully."Actually, no. I still disagree with you.
A couple of things:
Employers routinely use Google or other searches on real life names in order to determine whether or not to hire people. If 'non-bullying' but questionable reading material reviews were found - well, that could be an issue. This is why the military routinely cautions members NOT to use Facebook or other social sites.
Some folks have online stalkers. Everyday folks. NOT bullies.
So in essence - this petition is trying to force a company to publicize private information about its customers, which is a huge security risk (they already verify customers' info, but allow a customer to use a moniker when posting - for safety/privacy reasons), all to try to 'shame' people into not having critical opinions?
There are always going to be assholes who game systems - and it goes both ways, don't for a second try to convince anyone that there aren't any authors who've taken your 'bullying' tactics or posted links on Facebook pages or blogs to get their fans to go around bullying negative reviews (just go look at the one star reviews of another book and see how fangirls have bullied every single 1 star reviewer there - http://www.amazon.com/Crashed-The-Dri...
Anne Rice was particularly good at directing traffic to critical reviews, which is why she and many posters on Amazon don't get along.
If authors would not respond defensively to critical/negative reviews, reviewers/readers would not respond/react caustically to their antics, and I'll bet the cycle would be broken.
Because let's face it - anyone who's actually been around awhile to see how this stuff began could tell you how it started. And it wasn't the reviewers.
That's ok. When people get to where they don't review books on Amazon or even here..maybe then the one's that yell bully will be happy. It amazes me that this is happening.
And yes Anne Rice is particularly good at pointing out negative reviews. Several of the authors that yell bully are.
Good grief.
Oh wow, this is REALLY disappointing. Elle, I am going to chalk this off to you just knowing a smidge of the whole Anne Rice story. She has been after Amazon since 2004, when she went ballistic on several negative reviewers of her own book. She has a well known personal issue with Amazon, and recently she baited a lot of people on Amazon. I have read quite a bit of that thread. IMO, she was not bullied, she just didn't get the full support she wanted.
To make matter worse, she is now coat tailing a horrible group called STGRB who are notorious for twisting facts. For example: most recently they went after someone who was quoted as saying "the only good author is a dead author". They called him a bully and worse. But you know what the problem is with that? He was referring to his love for historical books, and they know it. He runs a large group on Goodreads dedicated to the famous dead writers. AND THEY KNOW THIS FACT. But they use shit like that out of context all the time to scare authors like you.
Elle, you and I have been chatting a bit over the last week, and I wrote a wonderful review of your new book and recommended it to many people. I am in the middle of reading another book of yours and enjoying it very much. Now I have to ask you, am I a online bully simply because I don't spell out my full name? Please, review my entire GR site. PLEASE. Because those ass holes at STGRB list me among the worst online bullies. But have they ever said why? Nope. The reason is I speak out AGAINST their horrible tactics of bullying. Yep, bullying.
Here is a quote from Anne Rice from her FB page regarding her support of that horrible site. She actually SUPPORTS bullying, how odd.
http://i.imgur.com/5iLhgIG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b1QdKem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YF0oLCp.jpg
Now I don't support online bullying either, and I would support tougher laws to stop it. But outing real life identities which will only put them at risk is NOT a smart idea in this crazy world. It is such an unsafe measure.
Melissa Douthit, one of the voices supporting this, went to great trouble to take all of her personal information off the internet. You have to ask how she can do something like that, yet spearhead a measure that would require just the opposite? Truth is she was right to hide her identity, as there are a ton of whacko's out there. She pissed off a legion a few years back when she outed some popular reviewers and tried to crucify them. It backfired on her as no one believed her.
Ugh. I am just at loss with this one.
Elle wrote: "Mrs JosephYes, it is bullying. And it's being an asshole. The two are not mutually exclusive. You can be both! (not you, personally, just "you" as in any person).
While I feel very bad for you..."
So you're basically saying that you'd prefer for women to be stalked than someone have anonymity online???!
Well, I pray that you never have to choose. I pray that no one else goes through what I have gone through (and still do!). And it's hateful that you are more concerned about knowing someone's name who's being an ass than another human's safety.
And by the way, the things you have listed do not equal bullying.You are an author - you are supposed to care about words and what they mean. What you have listed is NOT the definition or the act of bullying. Of course, I'm sure that you'd never tell a teenager on the verge of committing suicide due to actual bullying that a book review is the same as he/she being tormented daily in person. That would never happen. But the fact that you get to sit safely at home behind your keyboard makes it very easy to cry "bully" when someone gives out a bad review.
Pffft. A bad review.
I WISH my life was such that all my problems boiled down to a bad review. Must be nice.
I sure wish that authors were as intent on telling other authors not to stalk reviews and behave abominably towards reviewers as they are on shutting down 'bullying' reviewers. Are there horrible reviewers out there? Absolutely. The thing is, a net of 'make reviews be attached to real names' is INCREDIBLY wide and catches more people than just the awful ones. It catches people who may never have left a negative review before in their life. It catches people who respectfully crit books. It catches people who just want to leave a starred rating. So suddenly all these people - probably 90% of the reviewing population, tbh - have to 'verify' their identity because of the actions of a few?
It pains me to see the online reviewing community becoming more and more disillusioned with authors, reading and reviewing. Surely there are better ways to resolve this than forcing identification on everyone and putting people at risk due to stalking, harassment etc. I don't at all agree that wanting to give my OPINION about something should mean that I have to tell everyone who I am, so I sure hope that if Amazon listens to this, they realise that a) they could lose a lot of the reviews that make their sites so valuable and b) they need to have a way for people to remain concealed from the overall public.
As it stands this basically says 'unless you want to give your real name, you can't review' and that stinks when we're talking about publishing to the whole internet.
While I feel very bad for you as a victim of stalking, that doesn't change my thoughts or position on this subject. Anonymity allows bullies to thrive. Amazon's marketplace and forums are out of control and this is the only solution that I can see.
^-- This is pretty damn gross, to be honest. You just announced to the world that you are a-okay with forcing people to choose between either reviewing or disclosing their identity and putting themselves in danger. I can say that I think that your intentions are 'good', I guess, but the way you're going about it is not at all fair to the vast majority of the reviewing population.
Of course, what's really going to happen is that people will stop reviewing anywhere they are "obliged" to give out info. I will never stop reviewing but I refuse to give my stalker an easy way to find me and you can't force me. So there goes all that "book discoverability" and prominent reviews SPAs practically beg for. I'm sure a lot of people will be like me - so the reviews will disappear for the most part.
And "whoops!" we're right back at "large traditional publisher" being the best place to get books.
Kerri (Book Hoarder) wrote: "I sure wish that authors were as intent on telling other authors not to stalk reviews and behave abominably towards reviewers as they are on shutting down 'bullying' reviewers. Are there horrible..."
Well said Kerri. I agree, this is the absolute worst solution to the problem as it exposes innocent people left and right. It will discourage a ton of reviewers, not just a few smart-mouthed posters who piss off authors tender feelings. What they want to stop is not the legal definition of bullying, they simply want full and utter praise only.
Personally, I have no worries this will ever come to fruition. The government and the great people of this country where Amazon resides fully respect the need for privacy laws, and there are plenty of laws in place where real victims can use to gain justice. Amazon often deletes comments and members who do harass other members. Disagreeing with another member, as in the case with Anne Rice's 'bully' thread that never had any bullying, are simply not grounds for legal actions nor removal from the Amazon system. SO yes, THIS is the worst solution that will only backfire on authors.
On the plus side, just think of how many fewer reviews of "I loved Fifty Shades of Grey!" there would be! Hell, maybe that entire phenomenon of obsessed fans wanting to shout out how much they loved their dirty smut books would never of happened at all, because most people would be too embarrassed. I wonder how many erotica authors signed that petition not realizing they are biting off the hand that feeds them?
/snark ;-)
♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "On the plus side, just think of how fewer reviews of "I loved Fifty Shades of Grey!" there would be! Hell, maybe that entire phenomenon of obsessed fans wanting to shout out how much they loved their dirty smut books would never of happened at all, cause most people would be too embarrassed"Ha! I just pub'd a review of Brianna (erotica) but it wouldn't have gone live if it could be tied to me. Cause while I love the book I work for a very conservative, very Catholic employer.
O_O
Very Catholic.
MrsJoseph wrote: "♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "On the plus side, just think of how fewer reviews of "I loved Fifty Shades of Grey!" there would be! Hell, maybe that entire phenomenon of obsessed fans wanting to shout out how m..."Wasn't she the author who was outed a few years ago and lost her teaching job? A few parents realized she wrote under a 'pen name' and tried to shame her for writing erotica and teaching high school. Thank GOD the writing community and reviewers shouted their outrage of outing her and trying to publicly shame her, she got her job back. Which begs the question, are these authors planning on dropping pen names now too? In other words, what is good for the goose...?
♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "Wasn't she the author who was outed a few years ago and lost her teaching job? A few parents realized she wrote under a 'pen name' and tried to shame her for writing erotica and teaching high school. Thank GOD the writing community and reviewers shouted their outrage of outing her and trying to publicly shame her, she got her job back. Which begs the question, are these authors planning on dropping pen names now too? In other words, what is good for the goose...? "Yeah, that was her. :( I love her work and she hasn't put out anything since then. Site not updated either (funny thing, I actually read them for the stories. Stop rolling your eyes, KarLynP! lol).
Yep, the entire Romance community came to her defense.
But I have to say...if she was like the "I'm being bullied" group, I doubt she would have gotten that reaction. I already had a copy but I went out and bought another copy.
Elle wrote: "P. S. wrote: "please don't allow these individuals to affect you, they're merely Sheeple. it's an actual term as defined in Wikipedia:
Sheeple (a portmanteau of "sheep" and "people") is a term th..."
I do understand your point Elle & have given up my Face Book page well over six months ago due to mean & fickle behavior from faceless names... social media is quite easily abused by many looking to spoil someones day.
I enjoyed the Rebel Books & am anxiously awaiting the sequel to Shine Not Burn.
In2books wrote: "I saw this on my feed on Goodreads. So you must have your personal blog set up to feed to GR. I didn't go to your personal space and track you down. And yes, you did offend me. Both of these, "You ..."Yes, I do. And if you READ the post, you would see that I didn't mention Goodreads at all. I said specifically that I was talking about Amazon.
If you read the back of a book, and post that you read the back of the book and saw grammatical errors and decided to pass on the book, that's not a review about the book, is it? It's a review about the blurb. I didn't say anything about a review about a blurb. I was talking about people who write a negative review about a book that they didn't read. Bullies do this all the time. They PRETEND to read a book and then post a 1-star review about it, just for the sole purpose of hurting an author. That's bullying. If you don't agree, then again, no need to come on MY feed anymore because we will never see eye to eye and you're just here to cause trouble, and I'm sure you can find a lot better things to do with your time.
And as for the second point, if you're one of those people who decide who a person is by the books they write and then go on a witch hunt with your online friends to discredit them ... then you're a bully. Plain and simple. Again, I have to ask anyone who does this: Why? Don't you have better things to do with your time than try to break people down, people you don't even know? I'm not saying this is "YOU" doing this, but you seem to think it's your right to do it. And I'll tell you this: it's not your right to do that. It's actually illegal all over the world. It's called libel and it can get you in a lot of hot water - anonymity will not help you either if the person you attack decides to fight back.
If you understand it and support it display your real name. Otherwise who's going to take you seriously? What needs to happen is one of these authors should write a blog asking everyone who ever reviewed their books to please change their name to their real name or delete the reviews entirely. Exactly what this petition is truly asking people to do going forward.
In2books wrote: Why won't the same rule apply to (you)authors? Don't read their reviews. Don't get on Amazon forums or Goodreads and interact. Can't be bullied if you not there.
You have missed the point entirely. I'm not even sure why I'm trying to explain to you because it's clear you've just come to the feed to stir up shit. But I'll try one more time:
Bullies hurt their victims financially, emotionally, and sometimes they cause physical problems as well. To look at the victim and tell them, "You just need to look the other way," is beyond ridiculous. Do you really, honestly believe that victims of bullying should just shut up and ignore it? That's the solution?
I'm shaking my head at that one.
HJ wrote:Actually, no. I still disagree with you.A couple of things:
Employers routinely use Google or other searches on real life names in order to determine whether or not to hire people. If 'non-bullying' but questionable reading material reviews were found - well, that could be an issue. This is why the military routinely cautions members NOT to use Facebook or other social sites.
Some folks have online stalkers. Everyday folks. NOT bullies.
So in essence - this petition is trying to force a company to publicize private information about its customers, which is a huge security risk (they already verify customers' info, but allow a customer to use a moniker when posting - for safety/privacy reasons), all to try to 'shame' people into not having critical opinions?
There are always going to be assholes who game systems - and it goes both ways, don't for a second try to convince anyone that there aren't any authors who've taken your 'bullying' tactics or posted links on Facebook pages or blogs to get their fans to go around bullying negative reviews (just go look at the one star reviews of another book and see how fangirls have bullied every single 1 star reviewer there - http://www.amazon.com/Crashed-The-Dri...
Anne Rice was particularly good at directing traffic to critical reviews, which is why she and many posters on Amazon don't get along.
If authors would not respond defensively to critical/negative reviews, reviewers/readers would not respond/react caustically to their antics, and I'll bet the cycle would be broken.
Because let's face it - anyone who's actually been around awhile to see how this stuff began could tell you how it started. And it wasn't the reviewers.
I talking about bullying from several perspectives, not just readers. I agree that authors can be bullies too. ANYONE can be a bully if they use the internet to attack another person.
I never equated a negative review written by a reader who read the book as bullying. NEVER. I said reviews written by people who did NOT read the book and reviews who say things about the author personally (not the WORK of the author). Bringing that into the discussion is either a result of (1) you not reading what I wrote very closely, or (2) a smoke screen to obscure the facts.
Not once did I suggest shaming anyone into not being critical. If I don't like a book and I want to tell the world about it, I can do that without being a bully, very easily. I'll tell you everything I didn't like about the story or characters and why I didn't like it. An employer can search my name and see that I'm one of the people who didn't like that book. Are you suggesting that I won't be hired because I didn't like a book and I was courteous and professional about how I shared that opinion? Because that sounds pretty silly to me.
I have "been around" for quite a while. And I've seen tons of shit storms and bullying posses out there and troll factions and so on. And yes, I have seen authors behaving very badly. Which came first? What does it matter. The behavior on both sides of the aisle needs to stop. One of the best ways to make that happen is to bring in the light of day. No more hiding. Bullies cease being bullies when they have to put their name to their words.
I'm rereading your comments, Elle.Let me ask you this? Do you also support ALL authors writing in their full names only?
So, no more of this "pen name" BS, but 1=1 name to person ratio? No more changing names because you want to write something different, right?
And what about people who write under pen names now? What about the author bullies? Why don't you authors complain about them??
Why do you authors not come to the rescue of reader-reviewers being harassed and bullied by authors?????
If you cant answer those questions "1=1", then your entire commentary reads as "do as I say, not as I do."
Shelby wrote: "That's ok. When people get to where they don't review books on Amazon or even here..maybe then the one's that yell bully will be happy. It amazes me that this is happening.
And yes Anne Rice is p..."
There are hundreds of thousands of negative reviews/comments on Amazon that are fantastic. They do exactly what book reviews or comments should do: help other readers decide whether to purchase the book or not. Removing bullies from the equation only makes it possible to have more of these kinds of negative reviews and comments rather than the OTHER kind which are the ones there only to attack authors or other reviewers.
Anyone who comes on this thread and turns this into an "authors vs. readers" argument is missing my point. I have zero issue with honest negative reviews. I DO have a big problem with fake reviews and personal attacks.
If anyone coming on this thread thinks fake reviews and attacks (either from readers or authors) are okay, then do me a favor and leave. You're one of the people who are part of the problem and you have nothing to add to this conversation.
If, however, you agree that fake reviews and personal attacks don't belong on Amazon, then I believe we're shooting for the same thing in the end. It's how we get there that's at issue.
♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "Elle, you and I have been chatting a bit over the last week, and I wrote a wonderful review of your new book and recommended it to many people. I am in the middle of reading another book of yours and enjoying it very much. Now I have to ask you, am I a online bully simply because I don't spell out my full name? Please, review my entire GR site. PLEASE. Because those ass holes at STGRB list me among the worst online bullies. But have they ever said why? Nope. The reason is I speak out AGAINST their horrible tactics of bullying. Yep, bullying. You ask if I have called you a bully because you didn't spell out your name. Where is that coming from? Where in my post did I say ANYWHERE that people who don't give their names are bullies??
You see, this is how shit storms happen. People do not read things, they read INTO things. If you write book reviews that are about the book you read and do not attack authors personally, then you aren't a bully. Don't twist my words or put words in my post that simply aren't there.
As far as those other groups and authors fighting back and all that garbage, my guidelines hold. ANYONE who attacks others online, who goes after people to teach them a lesson, who smears people's reputations to show them a thing or two ... those people are bullies. I don't care what they do for a living, writing or delivering the Sunday paper.
Since you have been the victim of bullying, I think you would see the value in having people expose their names with their messages. I'd bet none of those authors would say those things about you if they had to share their names.
People do terrible things under the shroud of secrecy. I'm calling for that shroud to be lifted ON AMAZON. On AMAZON. I'm saying it over and over because people on this thread (which is luring in all kinds of people who are not my friends, who do not follow my reviews, who are obviously being pointed over here by other people) are trying to turn this into an author attack thread, which it's not.
I'm going to finish my comment to you by saying I'm very happy to have you as a fan and I'm thrilled you have taken the time not only to review my work but share it with your friends. I don't want you to regret that. I'm not an asshole. I'm not Anne Rice. I'm not the person who called you a bully. I'm an author who has been harassed and bullied and who is tired of it happening, not just to me but to other authors, to bloggers, to reviewers, to anyone it happens to. No more victims; that's what I want.
Eh, I don't care anymore. I can't care anymore. I don't review at amazon and I will not. Yall can go fill Amazon to the brim with authors shilling to each other and giving each other loving 5 star reviews while the written language is abused and destroyed.
Screw this, I'm tired of SPAs. I'm done. Yall win. I quit.
Thanks, Elle. You helped me make up my mind.
ETA: There is an author I follow. SHE is the one person I'm patiently waiting to publish. She's taking her time, she's polishing her work. She's it.
It's the squirrels or nothing (inside j/k).
The rest of the 2014 book budget is going to Erikson.
Elle wrote: "People do terrible things under the shroud of secrecy. I'm calling for that shroud to be lifted ON AMAZON. On AMAZON. I'm saying it over and over because people on this thread (which is luring in all kinds of people who are not my friends, who do not follow my reviews, who are obviously being pointed over here by other people) are trying to turn this into an author attack thread, which it's not."Do you NOT know how GR works???
I am friends with HJ. I saw her comment to you in my feed. I clicked and read. I commented.
It's a social network. I commented - which goes to MY feed (fed to my friends) - and then THEY are interested. They click and read. Sometimes they comment.
Let me remove this from my feed. I don't want to be accused of "bullying."
JennyJen wrote: "When authors band together, even when the original author in question has behaved DEPLORABLY, it's called support. When reviewers band together, even if it's only been IN RESPONSE to deplorable author behavior, they're called packs/gangs of bullies.Utter BS.
JennyJen, these ^^ are your words, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.
Grow a thicker skin and learn to accept negative reviews - however they come. You don't see professional actors acting like goddamn fools when someone puts down their work. Why? Because it comes with the territory. Authors are not above criticism. Accept that and move on.
Where in my post ANYWHERE did I say it's bullying to write a negative review? Nowhere. Read the post, don't read INTO the post. Don't turn a call for an end to bullying into an "author behaving badly" thread, which this is not.
And since when is reviewing a book that you haven't read "bullying?" Whether it's in poor taste or not is besides the point. The fact is that it's NOT "bullying."
Let me ask you this: Do you write negative reviews for books you haven't read? Why? Because you can have an opinion about something you know nothing about? No, you can't. It's impossible to have an opinion about something you know nothing about. So you must have another motivation for doing this. What is that motivation? It cannot possibly be good, can it? A person would do this for one reason: to steer people away from an author's work. Now if you say in your review "I did not read this book ..." then that's a different story. I was referring to negative reviews for books where the reviewer pretends to read it and pretends to have an informed opinion. Different animal.
Authors who act like megalomaniacs and harass their readers are displaying behavior closer to bullying than any reviewer who is reviewing a product is. And those same immature and unhinged authors do way more damage to their own sales than any negative reviews ever will.
I would agree with you on that. Again, you read my post to be addressing solely readers, when in fact all of the behaviors can also be attributed to authors. That was your assumption, and incorrect at that.
Learn self control and take classes on how to behave professionally. There's your solution for all this supposed "author bullying."
I think your advice to other authors is great. I agree. You aren't giving this advice to me, however; if you are, you have misread my post for the reasons already stated above.
It's shameful that all these purported adults abuse the word in this way. All they need to do is GROW UP and learn to accept criticism with grace. Problem solved.
People do need to grow up. No more hiding will help that. If you're saying I'm using the word "bullying" incorrectly, then you would be wrong. I'm using the legal definition and the definition provided by Amazon.
And another thing:
What qualifies you to tell people how to behave or review? Why are authors always telling people what an acceptable review is? Why don't all of you authors who are "supporting" each other through these terrible "bullying" times tell each other how to behave in public instead? How about that? Because if you want to support each other, you all should work on preventing more of these ridiculous author meltdowns from happening. Meltdowns where authors behave like they've never been taught proper manners in their life. Going so far as to even use racial slurs against reviewers. If you all banded together and prevented this deplorable behavior, you all wouldn't feel the need to band together in the aftermath and cry "bully" just to save face. "
I believe I am eminently qualified to give advice on this since I'm an experienced member of the reading and writing communities, since I have had discussions with people on the executive customer service team at Amazon, and since I am a licensed attorney who actually knows the law regarding libel and cyber crimes. I'm also a parent whose had a child bullied at school and dealt with the fallout that occurs in those situations. I'm one of those "been there done that" people. I'm also motivated by the idea that we can have a dynamic and effective reader experience on Amazon without all the garbage that comes along with bullying and trolling behavior. And believe it or not, authors are constantly talking each other down off ledges, reminding them about proper behavior, sharing stories of bad decisions. Authors want a positive reader experience for their fans and they go to great lengths to make that happen. Even turning the other cheek and walking away when attacked.
MrsJoseph wrote: So you're basically saying that you'd prefer for women to be stalked than someone have anonymity online???!Well, I pray that you never have to choose. I pray that no one else goes through what I have gone through (and still do!). And it's hateful that you are more concerned about knowing someone's name who's being an ass than another human's safety.
I never said that. Please read my post(s) again so you don't make incorrect assumptions.
I'll say this again: don't read things into my words that aren't there. Don't put words in my mouth (off my fingers). What I said was that,in essence, if you worry about your identity being discovered, and you're using a site that reveals your identity, don't post anything there. It's very simple.
Right now Amazon puts the city and state where a person lives and their name or pseudonym. If Amazon changed to real names and took off the city and state, it would be fairly anonymous; however, if it's not anonymous enough for me, I can just choose not to post there. It's very simple.
JLC wrote: "OMG! I cannot believe this forum. Do you understand that you took a pin sized hole of a situation & turned it into a huge gaping black hole? All because you claim others are ‘bullying you’??? Are you freaking serious?? Are they bullying you, or is it that they didn’t give you a glowing 5 star review? If you and/or your family are truly reaping the results of bullying, then you need to get law enforcement involved. If you are just merely whining – I mean – reacting to undesirable feedback of your work, then you are being a “boy who cried wolf” & diminishing the true seriousness of those truly being bullied.What did you expect as an author? Did you think it was going to be all peaches & roses, & nobody would ever say anything derogatory about you or your work? Are you going to keep writing blogs & creating forums to "discuss" negativity you experience? That seems kind of counterproductive to your career as an author, wouldn't you say?
The difference between you, EC, & us readers, you are the one making money off of us. ‘YOU’ are the business person in all of this. It is your responsibility to maintain a sense of professionalism. Going around whining and crying “bully” because somebody doesn’t like your work is one of the most unprofessional, RIDICULOUS behavior I’ve seen out an author. You cannot be so sensitive in the professional world. You have to keep your emotions hidden in the business world. Expose your emotions to your family and friends if you must, but keep a poker face in the business world. And NEVER expect 100% positive feedback. That’s just not realistic. You have to have a backbone. Personally, I think you’re too sensitive and have NO BUSINESS being an author. You CAN’T HANDLE IT.
I have bought three of your books. I read one. I will tell you right now that thanks to your behavior here and on another blog of yours, I will NEVER EVER buy another book of yours again. Not because I was persuaded by negative feedback of your work - for I’m reasonable enough to know that not everybody is going to have the same taste – but because of your unprofessional behavior. I don't respect you, and I think you are acting like a two year old throwing a glorified temper tantrum all because you got some negative feedback on your work.
How DARE you call it bullying. It’s appalling. "
After reading your post I've figured out two things immediately:
(1) you didn't read my post in its entirety
(2) someone you know online told you to come over here and "get a load of this author behaving badly" or something similar.
See? This is what I'm talking about. Here comes the shit storm, all because you've made assumptions about me that don't apply, because you've jumped on a bandwagon without reading carefully.
Read the list I posted. That would be the Jeff-Foxworthy-inspired list. Does it say ANYWHERE on there that this has anything to do with not receiving a 5-star review? No. Does it say anything about a reviewer leaving a 1-star review for a book she's read? NO, it does not.
I have received plenty of negative reviews. They're invaluable to other readers trying to decide whether to buy my books. They do exactly what they should do. THIS BLOG POST IS NOT ABOUT LEGITIMATE NEGATIVE REVIEWS.
If you don't understand what I wrote there, if you don't see what I wrote there to be true, please go back and read the original post that was on my blog and fed over here to Goodreads. If you have issues with what I wrote after you read it, come back and share your thoughts. But I can't respond to what you've said here because it doesn't apply to what I've written.
MrsJoseph wrote: "And by the way, the things you have listed do not equal bullying.You are an author - you are supposed to care about words and what they mean. What you have listed is NOT the definition or the act of bullying. Of course, I'm sure that you'd never tell a teenager on the verge of committing suicide due to actual bullying that a book review is the same as he/she being tormented daily in person. That would never happen. But the fact that you get to sit safely at home behind your keyboard makes it very easy to cry "bully" when someone gives out a bad review.
Pffft. A bad review.
I WISH my life was such that all my problems boiled down to a bad review. Must be nice. "
Again, I'll say it ... this is not about legitimate negative reviews written by people who read the book and didn't like it. That is a different thing altogether. Please re-read the post if you don't understand what i'm saying here.
Elle wrote: "I never said that. Please read my post(s) again so you don't make incorrect assumptions.I'll say this again: don't read things into my words that aren't there. Don't put words in my mouth (off my fingers). What I said was that,in essence, if you worry about your identity being discovered, and you're using a site that reveals your identity, don't post anything there. It's very simple.
Right now Amazon puts the city and state where a person lives and their name or pseudonym. If Amazon changed to real names and took off the city and state, it would be fairly anonymous; however, if it's not anonymous enough for me, I can just choose not to post there. It's very simple."
I read your post very clearly.
Basically you said, "too bad, so sad."
You might not have meant it to sound like that...but when you tell someone you're "sorry, but..."
That "but" means something. And your "but" says you don't care as long as Amazon tags people's real names.
So please tell me how I didn't read what you wrote. I just didn't get out of it what you wanted me to get out of it.
I felt callousness and disregard for the safety and community of others. Because you stated that, "What I said was that,in essence, if you worry about your identity being discovered, and you're using a site that reveals your identity, don't post anything there. It's very simple."
Well, what's simple is that you would be kicking me and anyone else concerned about being harmed out of Amazon - so you can police the behavior of others. Right now I'm free to post at Amazon under whatever I choose - stalker free. You want to change that - which will effectively remove every abused woman afraid for her life from being able to review.
But hey! You'll know who they are now. It's "all good." <-- sarcasm
Kerri (Book Hoarder) wrote: "While I feel very bad for you as a victim of stalking, that doesn't change my thoughts or position on this subject. Anonymity allows bullies to thrive. Amazon's marketplace and forums are out of control and this is the only solution that I can see.^-- This is pretty damn gross, to be honest. You just announced to the world that you are a-okay with forcing people to choose between either reviewing or disclosing their identity and putting themselves in danger. I can say that I think that your intentions are 'good', I guess, but the way you're going about it is not at all fair to the vast majority of the reviewing population. ."
I didn't say that. It's not really a choice is it? If you are being stalked, the police will tell you, don't make yourself known in any way. So you stay off the internet, you stay off Facebook, you don't post pictures of yourself, you just don't make yourself available. It's dangerous to do otherwise. That's not me saying I don't care about victims. Hello? This post is about victims of bullying and a call to end bullying coming from ANY source, be they readers or authors. It just needs to stop.
And please remember, this whole article is about AMAZON. There are plenty of other places people who want to remain anonymous can post reviews of books and products.
Can I just ask, how an author "knows" that a reviewer didn't actually read their book?And how much is enough to consider it read? A chapter, two, half a book? If I read the first chapter, and the editing is crap, characters names change multiple times, spelling errors, punctuation and grammar errors, etc, is that not enough for me to leave a review that the book is crap?
As to real names? I don't need my family and friends knowing what type of books I read. I come from a very conservative, religious, bigoted town and yes, family. I don't need them knowing that I read erotica and especially M/M romance books, but force me to use my real name, and it's all out there for anyone to see.
Hello Elle, I am another one who has seen this on her feed because some of my goodreads friends are posting here. I do think you are missing the point that many are trying to make to you. By signing this petition you are associating and therefore being put under the same blanket as Anne Rice, Stop the Goodreads bullying site (Truthfully they are badly behaved authors who will cry, whine and scream bully because of non 5 star reviews).
I am under the philosophy that reviews are for reviewers not for authors. Isn't that what your critique groups and beta readers are for?
The ones sponsoring this petition are some of the worst behaved authors. Do you really want your good name associated with that. I also disagree that a readers full name needs to be on the review. Most readers who have been around for a while are pretty saavy and the new readers catch on pretty quick to what is going on. Readers are not stupid. (well not the majority of them I like to think). By signing a petition that invades readers privacy, a petition that was created by some very badly behaving authors you have associated yourself with that movement and truly it makes you look bad to myself and other readers. I post my reviews for readers, my online reading groups and fellow forum posters know who I am while probably really not knowing too much about me. We readers who post on forums and goodreads know each others tastes. While I may not like a book my friend Karlyn or HJ may. You are breaking your readers trust. These authors are breaking their readers trust and I wish you all would quit worrying so much about what other people think. Some will like your book, some will not and making readers private information public is an insult to us readers everywhere.
>>People do terrible things under the shroud of secrecy. I'm calling for that shroud to be lifted ON AMAZON. On AMAZON. I'm saying it over and over because people on this thread (which is luring in all kinds of people who are not my friends, who do not follow my reviews, who are obviously being pointed over here by other people) are trying to turn this into an author attack thread, which it's not.<<But the thing is, Elle, Amazon allows people to review books they haven't read. It's kind of silly to call someone a bully for writing a review that the review site allows.
And if an author has a problem with a review that says something about them, they can ask Amazon to take it down. Amazon makes the rules for their reviews and can delete any they choose to delete.
There is no need to violate anyone's privacy. Your issue is not with anonymity, it's with Amazon's review guidelines.
As I see it, you and all the other authors who are signing this petition are attacking the wrong problem. And it may just come back to bite you.
I'm not sure how others feel, but I won't be reading any books written by any author who signs Anne Rice's petition.
P. S. wrote: "I do understand your point Elle & have given up my Face Book page well over six months ago due to mean & fickle behavior from faceless names... social media is quite easily abused by many looking to spoil someones day.I enjoyed the Rebel Books & am anxiously awaiting the sequel to Shine Not Burn. ."
Thanks. I think the point got buried amongst the righteous outrage, which I completely understand because there are tender feelings out there, bad experiences, and definite mis-readings of my original post.
There's no easy answer. Putting up names is AN answer but it's not bullet proof. There are drawbacks like the erotic romance genres that will suffer less reviews because not a lot of people are willing to admit publicly that they read those books, or they can't because of jobs or family. And there are people who have been victims of stalking who can't risk being seen. There will be consequences. But I don't believe that means that bullying should be allowed and not stopped.
As I said in my original post, I think some people engage in this type of behavior without really thinking about it or without thinking about how they might act differently if everyone knew their real name when they posted. I'm getting a lot of crap from people, now some of them threatening to never read my books again and tell their friends about what a terrible person I am so they won't read my books either. That's a real shame. Because all I'm trying to do is change the community for the better; and when I say "better" I do NOT mean getting rid of negative reviews. I mean getting rid of bullying behavior. That's it.
message 46:
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Zahara Cerise cares about alien existential angst
(last edited Mar 06, 2014 07:09PM)
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Elle wrote: Right now Amazon puts the city and state where a person lives and their name or pseudonym. If Amazon changed to real names and took off the city and state, it would be fairly anonymous; however, if it's not anonymous enough for me, I can just choose not to post there. It's very simple.<<Not true. Amazon puts nothing on a person's profile page except what the customer has put there. Many customers have nothing but their screen name.
Elle wrote: "I didn't say that. It's not really a choice is it? If you are being stalked, the police will tell you, don't make yourself known in any way. So you stay off the internet, you stay off Facebook, you don't post pictures of yourself, you just don't make yourself available. It's dangerous to do otherwise. That's not me saying I don't care about victims. Hello? This post is about victims of bullying and a call to end bullying coming from ANY source, be they readers or authors. It just needs to stop."You know, you sound like a decent person...
...so why can't you - even when explained - get that requiring this is more than just about Amazon?
How big was amazon, the last time you checked? Pretty freaking huge, right? You don't think that spills into everything?
You don't think its utter BS to tell someone that - in order to stop "the Amazon bullies" - they have to get off the internet because they've been stalked?
How are people supposed to function in this highly internet based society? Did you even think through this? I mean, more than just amazon. Really think about it?
You are soooo focused on "fixing those bullies" that you are willing to screw everyone over. And you can't see past the selfishness to see that.
It's more than Amazon. Its larger than that and affects a lot more. Try to pull your head away from all of these "fake reviews" that probably are not really "fake" to begin with and think about the rest of this society you live in.
Zahara wrote: "I'm not sure how others feel, but I won't be reading any books written by any author who signs Anne Rice's petition. "After all of the horrible things that Anne Rice has said and done - I do not support anything that is attached to her.
Just to elaborate a little on the Anne Rice thing ... I don't know her as a person or a writer. I haven't read any of her books. I read an article in the Guardian which I linked and I read the online petition which I signed. If Anne Rice has acted unprofessionally online, that has nothing to do with me. I don't underwrite her behavior, nor do I use her opinions or thoughts to guide my behavior. She was mentioned in my post because it was reading the article about her that got my mind wandering and thinking about what bullying behavior is and how people might be doing it without even realizing it. So any of you out there who are not fans of Anne Rice, I respect that and I have no opinion about it.
I just located a wonderful petition on the behalf of readers: https://www.change.org/petitions/amaz...The goal of the petition: Protect the Privacy of Amazon.com Users
Ask any law enforcement officer what they think of anyone putting their real name out publicly on the internet.
Has no one ever heard of identity theft, etc?
Sorry, but I do think that the petition is incredibly naive and short-sighted.
Many/most authors write under pen names/pseudonyms. I'm guessing that the petition does NOT ask for authors to use their real names?