You know you’re an online bully when …
I was thinking about the online bullying of authors, after reading the article about Anne Rice and the bullying she experienced (she is not alone – lots of us have suffered from this sickening trend), and it struck me how strange it is that a person who might be perfectly nice in public can become a menacing troll online, under the cover of anonymity. There’s a petition directed at Amazon here, by the way, if you want to sign it. I did.
Impulse control
Online bullying is an impulsive behavior. When I’ve seen it happen and the comments start piling up, it’s almost inevitable that the original poster removes the original post and sometimes they end up deleting entire websites and online profiles as the fallout comes crashing down and it spirals out of control. People start or enter conversations without stopping to think. They let their fingers fly and allow passion to take charge. They get all riled up and start saying the craziest things. We don’t do this in polite company. When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not? This is why I believe not permitting anonymous posting on Amazon reviews and Amazon forums would stop this behavior. When people know that what they say will be assigned to their names, they pause to reflect and act like they would if they were standing in front of you.
Could it be that they just don’t realize?
Anyway, as my mind was wandering like it often does, I started thinking … what exactly is an online bully or a troll? What are the behaviors one might assign this moniker to? As I came up with a list of things I’ve seen and experienced as an author, I realized that it’s very possible some people might act as bullies while not realizing that’s what they’re doing. And then I was thinking that maybe those people would stop, or at least pause and consider their actions before taking them, if they had a list of bullying behaviors to which they could compare their own. With that in mind, I’ve created this Jeff-Foxworthy-inspired post.
You know you’re an online bully when …
You’re not a forum moderator, but you go to the forums and “police” them anyway, scolding, lecturing, or taking action against other posters when they do things that don’t follow your rules of proper behavior.
You see a message from someone online discussing an author’s poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment. And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious.
I’ve probably missed a few, but these are the ones that I’ve seen and/or experienced. If I think of any others, I’ll add them later; or you can comment below if you think of some I forgot.
Bitchie Doesn't Review Here (much)Anymore wrote: "an I just ask, how an author "knows" that a reviewer didn't actually read their book?And how much is enough to consider it read? A chapter, two, half a book? If I read the first chapter, and the editing is crap, characters names change multiple times, spelling errors, punctuation and grammar errors, etc, is that not enough for me to leave a review that the book is crap?
As to real names? I don't need my family and friends knowing what type of books I read. I come from a very conservative, religious, bigoted town and yes, family. I don't need them knowing that I read erotica and especially M/M romance books, but force me to use my real name, and it's all out there for anyone to see. "
I'll tell you how I was able to tell a couple people hadn't read my book: they posted things that they said were in the book that weren't. Those were about as obvious as it gets.
The less obvious ones are the ones that pop up after a heated online discussion (like this one) that use language used in replies on the thread that say nothing about the actual book. Those are just "suspect" but not provable. As an author who posts online and enters discussions, it's bound to happen and you just have to shrug them off. It comes with the territory.
How much to read? As much as you want. If you read the first chapter and decide the book is crap, it's totally fair to say, "I could only get through the first chapter and then I quit because it was so bad. The grammar was terrible, the character development was non-existent, etc. etc." Honesty is awesome. Bring on the honest reviews! This post is not about being pissed over low-star reviews. It's about fake reviews and other bullying types of behavior.
I hear ya about the conservative family stuff. Like I've mentioned a couple replies above, you can see I've only discussed Amazon here. There are plenty of other sites that allow anonymous reviews (like GR for example!).
It's not a perfect solution. But the bullying needs to stop and it's true that most bullies will stop when they have to put their name on their words.
Elle wrote: "Just to elaborate a little on the Anne Rice thing ... I don't know her as a person or a writer. I haven't read any of her books. I read an article in the Guardian which I linked and I read the onli..."It's too bad you didn't do a bit of research to see if Anne Rice's story was true. I happened to be in the thread where she made all her accusations about gangster groups on Amazon (with no proof, which would qualify her as a bully according to your post). Her claims are utter nonsense.
Erin wrote: "I am under the philosophy that reviews are for reviewers not for authors. Isn't that what your critique groups and beta readers are for?The ones sponsoring this petition are some of the worst behaved authors. Do you really want your good name associated with that. I also disagree that a readers full name needs to be on the review. Most readers who have been around for a while are pretty saavy and the new readers catch on pretty quick to what is going on. Readers are not stupid. (well not the majority of them I like to think). By signing a petition that invades readers privacy, a petition that was created by some very badly behaving authors you have associated yourself with that movement and truly it makes you look bad to myself and other readers. I post my reviews for readers, my online reading groups and fellow forum posters know who I am while probably really not knowing too much about me. We readers who post on forums and goodreads know each others tastes. While I may not like a book my friend Karlyn or HJ may. You are breaking your readers trust. These authors are breaking their readers trust and I wish you all would quit worrying so much about what other people think. Some will like your book, some will not and making readers private information public is an insult to us readers everywhere. "
Hi, Erin. I posted this above, but I think it's worth repeating.
I'm not Anne Rice's mouthpiece. I don't know her, I don't know her history, I don't even read her books. I just read an article about her and it got me thinking. I read the petition and the things it's trying to stop from happening, I am also interested in stopping. Bullying. In all forms.
I am Elle Casey, not Anne Rice or any of those other authors. I don't know any of them, have never spoken to them, have never read their work.
I saw that stop goodreads bullies site once and I never went back. A posse of people going after other people is just awful. It's unprofessional and rude and yes, bullying. It fits my guidelines that I outlined in my post perfectly.
No one should be allowed to do this type of behavior and hide who they are. If you're going to approach someone, do it with your name front and center or don't do it at all. The reason I say this is because MOST people won't say or do those terrible things if they have to expose themselves, and it's not because they have a stalker out there. It's because they know they would never do or say those things to someone's face. They are cowards who strike in the dark only.
If bullying was just about a bad review, it wouldn't mean anything. But bullying has much farther-reaching consequences than that. Ask any kid who's suffered it. Ask any adult who's suffered it. It can't be allowed to continue at the expense of readers and writers.
Elle wrote: But the bullying needs to stop and it's true that most bullies will stop when they have to put their name on their words. ..."It's not bullying it's harassment. Big difference and it will not stop because the ones who are doing it will find a way around it and the ones who are good for other readers and authors are the ones who will be penalized. I see we won't agree on this subject and I hope you understand where many of us readers are coming from. Best of luck to you.
Elle, one thing that you seem to have missed (I pointed it out to you, but you apparently did not read my post fully) is that Amazon ALREADY verifies the identities of customers/posters. It's called having an account with a credit card attached to it.They ALLOW VERIFIED CUSTOMERS to use a pseudonym when reviewing or posting.
Elle, I've noticed that you've not once commented about author bullies (the real bullies) nor getting rid of pen names...
HJ wrote: "Elle, one thing that you seem to have missed (I pointed it out to you, but you apparently did not read my post fully) is that Amazon ALREADY verifies the identities of customers/posters. It's call..."This is true. I'm in Amazon under my husband but I do not review books at amazon. And very rarely products. Only 3rd party sales.
Elle wrote: "Erin wrote: "I am under the philosophy that reviews are for reviewers not for authors. Isn't that what your critique groups and beta readers are for?The ones sponsoring this petition are some of ..."
See Elle..that's just the thing. Several of us have faced bullying. I don't see putting a book on a "don't want to read" shelf as bullying. I don't see marking it as "no way" is bullying.
That has been used by several authors as saying we are bullying.
Several of my friends on here have just given up today. The whole Anne Rice whoopla and things..well like this happening. They feel beaten down. They just don't want to do it anymore.
It's to the point where I'm not sure I want to read SPA anymore and I usually love doing that because there are some gems out there.
I don't like screenshots of these posts appearing and being used as hate. It pees me off. It's not all readers doing that though.
MrsJoseph wrote: "You know, you sound like a decent person......so why can't you - even when explained - get that requiring this is more than just about Amazon?
How big was amazon, the last time you checked? Pretty freaking huge, right? You don't think that spills into everything?
You don't think its utter BS to tell someone that - in order to stop "the Amazon bullies" - they have to get off the internet because they've been stalked?
How are people supposed to function in this highly internet based society? Did you even think through this? I mean, more than just amazon. Really think about it?
You are soooo focused on "fixing those bullies" that you are willing to screw everyone over. And you can't see past the selfishness to see that.
It's more than Amazon. Its larger than that and affects a lot more. Try to pull your head away from all of these "fake reviews" that probably are not really "fake" to begin with and think about the rest of this society you live in. "
Okay, I'm glad I've gone from person who doesn't care about victims to being decent. :) I really am decent. I think. :)
Everyone is so focused on the negative reviews thing. It's a mistake to take my post and think that's what it was about. It's about so much more. Bullies destroy reputations. They destroy a person's career if dedicated enough. They destroy a writer's motivation to write, to create, to give readers what they want and enjoy. Ask any victim of a bully (anyone, a kid an adult, not just a writer) and ask them what happened to them after. It takes a piece of you.
Negative reviews? Pfft. We all get them. It's a part of the deal. I don't sweat them anymore. Not everyone's going to like my work. Some are going to hate it. That's cool. That's how it should be. We'd be boring if we all felt the same way about everything.
BUT, the idea that someone would come after me to hurt me for no other reason than they just had a bad day, or they're jealous (some of the biggest bullies in my life have been other authors), or disagree with me ... that's soul crushing. Having hatred aimed at you for no good reason is the most terrible feeling. I've blogged about it. You can see how it's affected me, and I'm not the only one. People kill themselves after being bullied. It does something really terrible to your sense of self and the world in general.
Amazon is the biggest marketplace to SELL books. It's also a haven for bullies and trolls. Really, it's awful. amazon is too big to have people review reviews before they go up or respond to complaints in a timely manner, so they just let it all go. We need people to police themselves, and since some really vocal and active groups have proven they cannot do this, there's only one solution. Let the world see who they are.
Do you have a better solution, because I'd love to hear it!
Hi, Elle, I agree that one of the solutions is that I don't post any reviews. However, what I was trying to express was my desire for a more moderate solution. Maybe a unique identifier that you're stuck with but isn't necessarily your legal name. Also, I'm afraid there was a misunderstanding on my "Just wanted to add..." post. The above poster I was referring to was In2books.
I don't think your original post could or should be misconstrued as bullying, even after quoting back and trying to apply your guidelines. There is a difference between speaking out against a specific person or going after a type of behavior in general. That distinction helps to differentiate between saying, "I don't like you, bully." and "I don't like bullying."
Zahara wrote: "Amazon puts nothing on a person's profile page except what the customer has put there. Many customers have nothing but their screen name. ."Even better. People can remove their location data themselves!
MrsJoseph wrote: "This is true. I'm in Amazon under my husband but I do not review books at amazon. And very rarely products. Only 3rd party sales."I know.
I posted under my own name for many months until my husband pointed out that MY interests could affect his security clearances.
Yup.
HJ wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "This is true. I'm in Amazon under my husband but I do not review books at amazon. And very rarely products. Only 3rd party sales."I know.
I posted under my own name for many..."
Exactly. I use my real first name but had to remove my last name last year because I received a phone call at my house.
Zahara wrote: But the thing is, Elle, Amazon allows people to review books they haven't read. It's kind of silly to call someone a bully for writing a review that the review site allows.Actually, that's not correct. Amazon allows people who didn't buy the book there to review the book there. Reviews are supposed to be about the book to be in their terms of use. And for a review to be about a book, a person needs to have knowledge of the book's contents.
And if an author has a problem with a review that says something about them, they can ask Amazon to take it down. Amazon makes the rules for their reviews and can delete any they choose to delete.
Yes. They do this when the review attacks the author personally, which is one of the guidelines I put in my post as bullying behavior.
There is no need to violate anyone's privacy. Your issue is not with anonymity, it's with Amazon's review guidelines.
As I see it, you and all the other authors who are signing this petition are attacking the wrong problem. And it may just come back to bite you.
How will this bite me, to speak my mind and say that I am against bullying by anyone online? Are you going to punish me? Is someone reading this going to "teach me a lesson"? You probably didn't mean it that way. You probably meant someone would choose not to read my work because they don't like what I'm saying. That's a very real risk I take in publishing my thoughts about anti-bullying campaigns. About stopping bullying in all forms, done by all people. I guess I'm willing to take that risk. I just have to hope and pray that people will look at what I've actually written before making judgments about me.
I'm not sure how others feel, but I won't be reading any books written by any author who signs Anne Rice's petition. ."
that is not Anne Rice's petition, you know that right? She is not the originator of that petition.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I would suggest googling her reaction to critics, then. She does everything you say you are against plus more. "Since I have not read any of that personally, I won't comment on it.
I will say, again, that I do not condone bullying behavior from any source. I've said that like 5 times at least now. :)
Elle wrote: I'm not Anne Rice's mouthpiece. I don't know her, I don't know her history, I don't even read her books. I just read an article about her and it got me thinking. I read the petition and the things it's trying to stop from happening, I am also interested in stopping. Bullying. In all forms.
You may not be Anne Rice's mouthpiece or know her or know her history or read her books. But you're going to be identified with her, now.
Elle, this is a general question, but have you read either of these books:
If you haven't, I honestly think that you should, because I could see where those texts would dispel a lot of the arguments you've made in this post, if even some of your attitudes towards victimization and the labeling of bullying vs. "meanness" or "drama." They are not always one and the same and there's a reason that people differentiate the terms. It would also address punishing the whole against the actions of a few, as well - which is wrong. Taking away privacy/anonmity would not help this issue versus finding ways to directly punish those who participate in harassing by the means. If anything, it would remove much needed protections. That level of punishment is painting the issue with almost too wide of a brush and based on generalized assumptions, rather than concrete solutions.
Just two cents.
Zahara wrote: "It's too bad you didn't do a bit of research to see if Anne Rice's story was true. I happened to be in the thread where she made all her accusations about gangster groups on Amazon (with no proof, which would qualify her as a bully according to your post). Her claims are utter nonsense. "I didn't need to do that research. It's irrelevant. Did you read my post? In my post I said that I read an article about Anne Rice and a petition and IT GOT ME THINKING. It got me thinking about things that have happened to ME personally. And it got me thinking about people who do things online that they'd never do in person to someone's face.
My post was inspired by my own experiences, but my thoughts were merely prompted by reading an article that brought my mind back to recent things that happened to me. I was actually giving some bullies the benefit of the doubt, saying, "hey, maybe they don't realize what they're doing is actually bad behavior."
So I haven't aligned myself with Anne Rice, and I don't need to research her or her behavior because it has nothing to do with me.
Janyaa wrote: "Also, I'm afraid there was a misunderstanding on my "Just wanted to add..." post. The above poster I was referring to was In2books.I don't think your original post could or should be misconstrued as bullying, even after quoting back and trying to apply your guidelines. There is a difference between speaking out against a specific person or going after a type of behavior in general. That distinction helps to differentiate between saying, "I don't like you, bully." and "I don't like bullying." "
Ha, ha, I'm so confused now it's not even funny. I'd respond but I don't know what you're saying or to whom. :) It's not even that late at night.
JennyJen wrote: "Elle wrote: "JennyJen wrote: "When authors band together, even when the original author in question has behaved DEPLORABLY, it's called support. When reviewers band together, even if it's only been..."This is exactly right. 1000 times
Elle wrote: "Kerri (Book Hoarder) wrote: "While I feel very bad for you as a victim of stalking, that doesn't change my thoughts or position on this subject. Anonymity allows bullies to thrive. Amazon's marketp..."When you keep speaking of JUST Amazon, do you realize the extent of Amazon's span on the Internet? ONE PERCENT of ALL Internet traffic flows through Amazons servers. And these stats are almost two years old. Granted by far the greatest portion of that will be supply chain and order fulfillment, but Amazon influence is huge.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/18/295...-
Erin wrote: "It's not bullying it's harassment. Big difference and it will not stop because the ones who are doing it will find a way around it and the ones who are good for other readers and authors are the ones who will be penalized. I see we won't agree on this subject and I hope you understand where many of us readers are coming from. Best of luck to you. "I do respect you as readers, and believe it or not, I am a reader too! I'm a freak of a reader. I eat books. I devour them. I pick them apart and revel in them. I just finished Gone Girl today as a matter of fact. Even though I don't have much time to read now that I write so much, I still do it when I can. I want Amazon to work for everyone, for the readers who need it to find good books and for authors who deserve to have their books discovered. Bullies and trolls are getting in the way of that.
Bullies harass. People who harass other people for the effect of demeaning them or destroying their reputations are bullies. Can we agree on that at least?
JennyJen wrote: "Elle wrote: "JennyJen wrote: "When authors band together, even when the original author in question has behaved DEPLORABLY, it's called support. When reviewers band together, even if it's only been..."Well said, JennyJen.
JennyJen wrote: "Elle wrote: "JennyJen wrote: "When authors band together, even when the original author in question has behaved DEPLORABLY, it's called support. When reviewers band together, even if it's only been..."Spot on.
Elle wrote: Actually, that's not correct. Amazon allows people who didn't buy the book there to review the book there. Reviews are supposed to be about the book to be in their terms of use. And for a review to be about a book, a person needs to have knowledge of the book's contents.Nope. There is nothing in the guidelines that says a reviewer has to have read a book. It only says the reviewer is to give their experience with the product.
Elle wrote: How will this bite me, to speak my mind and say that I am against bullying by anyone online? Are you going to punish me? Is someone reading this going to "teach me a lesson"? You probably didn't mean it that way. You probably meant someone would choose not to read my work because they don't like what I'm saying. That's a very real risk I take in publishing my thoughts about anti-bullying campaigns. About stopping bullying in all forms, done by all people. I guess I'm willing to take that risk. I just have to hope and pray that people will look at what I've actually written before making judgments about me.
I didn't say I was going to punish you. I didn't say someone is going to teach you a lesson. Those are all your interpretations of my comment.
People make decisions about what books they are going to read for all sorts of reasons. One of my decisions is that I won't read anything written by an author who signs Anne Rice's petition.
And it's funny how you didn't address the fact that you're attacking the wrong party. It's not reviewers that you have a problem with, it's Amazon's guidelines.
that is not Anne Rice's petition, you know that right? She is not the originator of that petition.
See, again you should have done your research. She is very much the originator of the petition. She didn't write the petition, but the author of the petition was on the thread that Anne was on. She is very much the originator of this petition and that's why it's being referred to as Anne Rice's petition.
Adding on to my post to MrsJoseph up farther in the thread ...Author bullies have just as devastating effects as reader bullies. They make readers not want to leave reviews. They make readers decide not to give other similar authors a chance. They ruin the joy of reading for readers, and I can't think of anything worse when it comes to my lifetime hobby. I was so grateful when audiobooks came along. I had always worried as a kid: what would happen if I went blind? How would I read? Yes, I know, braille, but I was sure it wouldn't be the same. So I take the pleasure of reading VERY seriously.
I say this because I want you all to know I am against bullying in ALL forms. This is not an anti-review or anti-reader post at all.
I'm really, really upset right now. I feel almost paralyzed with fear and sadness and just fuck!I'm done.
Elle wrote: "Adding on to my post to MrsJoseph up farther in the thread ...Author bullies have just as devastating effects as reader bullies. They make readers not want to leave reviews. They make readers dec..."
Elle, but that is why so many of us readers are angry. Like Zahara stated this petition was originated by author BULLIES. You are linking yourself to author bullies. Sigh...This is so frustrating.
Elle wrote: And it got me thinking about people who do things online that they'd never do in person to someone's face.Two problems with this comment.
1 ~ People actually do say things to people in real life that they say online and sometimes the person hearing them thinks they are mean things.
2 ~ It doesn't matter if what a reviewer says in their review is something they wouldn't say to the author face to face, because a reviewer isn't talking to the author. They are talking to other customers.
JennyJen wrote: Elle wrote: "JennyJen wrote: "When authors band together, even when the original author in question has behaved DEPLORABLY, it's called support. When reviewers band together, even if it's only been IN RESPONSE to deplorable author behavior, they're called packs/gangs of bullies.Utter BS.
JennyJen, these ^^ are your words, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth..."
I am NOT putting words in your mouth. I quoted your words:
Elle wrote: "they do run in packs, but that doesn't make them harmless. Believe me, trolls and bullies can have devastating effects on people's lives..""
Actually, you DID put words in my mouth. I never said authors running in packs are "support". Where do you see that? I never ever said that authors who run together to go after readers are supporting one another. You're getting that from someplace else and assigning it to me, which is completely unfair.
Any group of people online who ban together to go after someone is running in a pack. I said "bullies" and "trolls". YOU assumed that meant readers. Why? Probably because you are taking someone else's behavior and words and putting them on me.
I have said time and time again on this thread, that bullying behavior happens on both sides of the aisle, from readers and authors, and regardless of the source, it's WRONG and it shouldn't happen.
Elle wrote: "This is not an anti-review or anti-reader post at all. "Well, that right there is the problem. Your entire post sounds like it is anti-reviewer/reader rant.
"You see a message from someone online discussing an author’s poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment. And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious."
There is nothing here about authors 'showing that reviewer what-for', posting rants on Facebook pages to create fangirl attacks or any other bad author behavior.
You MAY BE against bullying authors, but it sure sounds like you're only railing against the other side on this one.
BTW - thanks for not addressing that Amazon already does verify customer info.
Elle wrote: I say this because I want you all to know I am against bullying in ALL forms. This is not an anti-review or anti-reader post at all. If it weren't for the fact that your post was directed towards readers and you signed a petition that would penalize readers who review I'd believe you.
Zahara wrote: "Elle wrote: Actually, that's not correct. Amazon allows people who didn't buy the book there to review the book there. Reviews are supposed to be about the book to be in their terms of use. And for..."As a person who signed the petition, I can tell you the originator of it is Todd Barselow. He's not Anne Rice, right? I have no idea who he is, but I do know that he wants the bullying to stop.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I'm really, really upset right now. I feel almost paralyzed with fear and sadness and just fuck!I'm done."
I'm really so sorry for the stalking you are experiencing in real life. I can't imagine how frightening that is.
Thank you for linking the petition. I signed it immediately.
Zahara wrote: "And it's funny how you didn't address the fact that you're attacking the wrong party. It's not reviewers that you have a problem with, it's Amazon's guidelines."Actually, as I said in my post and about 10 times now on this thread, my issue is not with reviewers. My issue is with BULLIES. And my definition of bully is very well laid out in my post, so I won't repeat it here.
HJ wrote: "Elle, one thing that you seem to have missed (I pointed it out to you, but you apparently did not read my post fully) is that Amazon ALREADY verifies the identities of customers/posters. It's called having an account with a credit card attached to it.They ALLOW VERIFIED CUSTOMERS to use a pseudonym when reviewing or posting"
I did read your post fully. I know what Amazon does. And sometimes you will see that people have chosen to let Amazon display their real name. There's a little icon that says, "Real Name" or something like that.
To be a verified, "real" person, you can purchase ANYTHING at Amazon. It doesn't have to even be a book.
Elle wrote: As a person who signed the petition, I can tell you the originator of it is Todd Barselow. He's not Anne Rice, right? I have no idea who he is, but I do know that he wants the bullying to stop. That's the thing. I know who Todd is. I know how this petition came about. That why I said the originator of the petition is Anne Rice. Todd wrote the petition, but the originator is Anne Rice.
It is Anne Rice's petition. That's why you see Anne Rice's picture on the news stories and Anne Rice's quotations.
Elle wrote: Actually, as I said in my post and about 10 times now on this thread, my issue is not with reviewers. My issue is with BULLIES. And my definition of bully is very well laid out in my post, so I won't repeat it here. You're still not getting it. No matter how many times you say this, your issue with bullies is not an issue of anonymity. It's an issue with Amazon and their TOS.
MrsJoseph wrote: "Elle, I've noticed that you've not once commented about author bullies (the real bullies) nor getting rid of pen names..."I actually have commented extensively about author bullies. I've said ALL bullies in ALL forms, and I've even said "Author bullies". I know this thread is long and I've replied all over the place so you might have missed it.
Regarding author's real names, Amazon has dealt with the problem by not allowing authors to leave reviews for books. So we are blocked from using the system. Now if Amazon blocked YOU from using the system I suppose you'd have a big problem with that. But I have to accept it as part of the cost of doing business there.
Shelby wrote: "See Elle..that's just the thing. Several of us have faced bullying. I don't see putting a book on a "don't want to read" shelf as bullying. I don't see marking it as "no way" is bullying.That has been used by several authors as saying we are bullying.
Several of my friends on here have just given up today. The whole Anne Rice whoopla and things..well like this happening. They feel beaten down. They just don't want to do it anymore.
It's to the point where I'm not sure I want to read SPA anymore and I usually love doing that because there are some gems out there.
I don't like screenshots of these posts appearing and being used as hate. It pees me off. It's not all readers doing that though. "
Okay, let's be fair. Did I put anything like that in my blog post? Did I say, "You might be a bully if you put "no way" on your shelf?" Hell no, you didn't see that. That would be ridiculous.
Now, Goodreads apparently cracked down and changed their guidelines saying shelves that looked like threats weren't allowed. I guess they decided that was out of line. But it wasn't mentioned by me.
And you boil this all down to "i won't read self published authors anymore." Anne Rice is and always has been traditionally published, and apparently, she's one of the worst ones out there.
I think a lot of your friends and I are in the same place. We just want to enjoy great books and share our thoughts and joys and disappointments without being attacked for it. I want to write and not be attacked for it. I want to have devoted fans and not have that somehow inspire other authors to come after me like rabid trolls. I can tell you that the majority of the attacks I have suffered have been from other AUTHORS, not readers. I get it! I totally get where you're coming from!!
My goal for this post was to look at the problem, shed light on it, and share a solution. It's an invitation for a dialogue. Now, of course, to some it seemed an invitation to fight. I can't help that people react like that. I can only hope after reading this thread they'll read the post with a different perspective and try to give me the benefit of the doubt. I really am not an asshole.
Elle wrote: "Regarding author's real names, Amazon has dealt with the problem by not allowing authors to leave reviews for books. So we are blocked from using the system. Now if Amazon blocked YOU from using the system I suppose you'd have a big problem with that. But I have to accept it as part of the cost of doing business there. "Actually, you're wrong on this. Anne Rice is a HUGE reviewer on Amazon. If they've removed reviewing capabilities from 'Amazon self-pubs' due to violating TOS, that's a different thing altogether.
Elle wrote: "Shelby wrote: "See Elle..that's just the thing. Several of us have faced bullying. I don't see putting a book on a "don't want to read" shelf as bullying. I don't see marking it as "no way" is bull..."Elle..no one has called you an asshole. I think we are all passionate about this. We are tired on our end from being labeled bullies and I know what you are trying to say too. The thing is that it has gotten so bad in the last few weeks and continues to do so that we are frazzled. We feel like no one listens to us.
Zahara: You may not be Anne Rice's mouthpiece or know her or know her history or read her books. But you're going to be identified with her, now. Why? Because I read an article about her and it got me thinking? Jesus. I'm seriously in trouble. I read articles about people all the time and comment on them. Does that now make me a disciple of their dogma too?
Be fair. There are seriously bullies on Goodreads. Does that mean you're one just because you are on Goodreads? Of course not. That's just silly.
So Anne Rice is a bully and she also signed the Anti-Bullying petition? So no one wants to sign the Anti-Bullying petition because a bully signed it too?I'm confused....
Zahara wrote: You're still not getting it. No matter how many times you say this, your issue with bullies is not an issue of anonymity. It's an issue with Amazon and their TOS. ."Zahara, I don't mean to keep beating this dead horse, but I'm going to be blunt. You cannot tell me what my issue is with. You can read my post and make your own assumptions, but I decide what my issue is with. It's with bullying in all forms. I've also seen a solution suggested and agreed it's a solution. Is it perfect? No. But no solution ever is. Compromises and sacrifices will have to be made.
Shelby wrote: "Elle..no one has called you an asshole. I think we are all passionate about this. We are tired on our end from being labeled bullies and I know what you are trying to say too. The thing is that it has gotten so bad in the last few weeks and continues to do so that we are frazzled. We feel like no one listens to us. I'm listening. I've always listened. I'm completely tuned in to my readers and the crap they have to put up with. I've talked to the powers that be at Amazon several times about this issue. Believe me, I care.
I just ask that people judge me for ME and MY actions, not the actions of others. Don't read my words with someone else whispering in your ear. It's not fair to me or to our dialogue.
HJ wrote: "Actually, you're wrong on this. Anne Rice is a HUGE reviewer on Amazon. If they've removed reviewing capabilities from 'Amazon self-pubs' due to violating TOS, that's a different thing altogether. "I cannot review anymore and all the other indies I know also cannot review. And it's not because we did anything wrong. Amazon tags our accounts and it's over. My guess? Anne Rice is not listed as a publisher on her account like an indie would be, so she's not tagged as a person not allowed to review. But that's a guess on my part.
Some authors do slip through that net because I've seen some authors being complete idiots in their reviews (self promoting), but I am not one of them. So what do I do instead? I post book recommendations on my Facebook fan page.
Zahara wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "I'm really, really upset right now. I feel almost paralyzed with fear and sadness and just fuck!I'm done."
I'm really so sorry for the stalking you are experiencing in real li..."
Thank you. I normally am not so upset but he just contacted me last week. It's been over 10 years - and the whole "real name" thing just scares me silly.
I would suggest googling her reaction to critics, then. She does everything you say you are against plus more.