You know you’re an online bully when …
I was thinking about the online bullying of authors, after reading the article about Anne Rice and the bullying she experienced (she is not alone – lots of us have suffered from this sickening trend), and it struck me how strange it is that a person who might be perfectly nice in public can become a menacing troll online, under the cover of anonymity. There’s a petition directed at Amazon here, by the way, if you want to sign it. I did.
Impulse control
Online bullying is an impulsive behavior. When I’ve seen it happen and the comments start piling up, it’s almost inevitable that the original poster removes the original post and sometimes they end up deleting entire websites and online profiles as the fallout comes crashing down and it spirals out of control. People start or enter conversations without stopping to think. They let their fingers fly and allow passion to take charge. They get all riled up and start saying the craziest things. We don’t do this in polite company. When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not? This is why I believe not permitting anonymous posting on Amazon reviews and Amazon forums would stop this behavior. When people know that what they say will be assigned to their names, they pause to reflect and act like they would if they were standing in front of you.
Could it be that they just don’t realize?
Anyway, as my mind was wandering like it often does, I started thinking … what exactly is an online bully or a troll? What are the behaviors one might assign this moniker to? As I came up with a list of things I’ve seen and experienced as an author, I realized that it’s very possible some people might act as bullies while not realizing that’s what they’re doing. And then I was thinking that maybe those people would stop, or at least pause and consider their actions before taking them, if they had a list of bullying behaviors to which they could compare their own. With that in mind, I’ve created this Jeff-Foxworthy-inspired post.
You know you’re an online bully when …
You’re not a forum moderator, but you go to the forums and “police” them anyway, scolding, lecturing, or taking action against other posters when they do things that don’t follow your rules of proper behavior.
You see a message from someone online discussing an author’s poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment. And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious.
I’ve probably missed a few, but these are the ones that I’ve seen and/or experienced. If I think of any others, I’ll add them later; or you can comment below if you think of some I forgot.
AH!So they want a petition to include authors as well?
Elle wrote: Be fair. There are seriously bullies on Goodreads. Does that mean you're one just because you are on Goodreads? Of course not. That's just silly. That is silly, because it's not the same thing at all.
Elle wrote: "HJ wrote: "Actually, you're wrong on this. Anne Rice is a HUGE reviewer on Amazon. If they've removed reviewing capabilities from 'Amazon self-pubs' due to violating TOS, that's a different thing a..."Actually, I just clicked on a bunch of author profiles over on the MOA on Amazon. They review all the time. And I have many indie/self-pubbed author friends, both here and on Amazon. Who all review with no problems.
The TOS cautions authors not to review 'competing products.' Like a book in a similar or like genre. This is to avoid review circles and/or negative reviews for the competition.
Zahara wrote: "That's the thing. I know who Todd is. I know how this petition came about. That why I said the originator of the petition is Anne Rice. Todd wrote the petition, but the originator is Anne Rice.It is Anne Rice's petition. That's why you see Anne Rice's picture on the news stories and Anne Rice's quotations.
How do you know that? Tood wrote it, Todd started it. It does appear he was inspired by the article in the Guardian, but I don't see where it says Anne is behind it.
And the idea is what's important to me. Stop the bullying. Yes. I want to stop the bullying on Amazon and I believe like this person Todd does that revealing names could do that.
Now somehow, that makes me an Anne Rice sympathizer, a lover of author bullies. *shakes head* I just don't get the connection.
Mama wrote: "So Anne Rice is a bully and she also signed the Anti-Bullying petition? So no one wants to sign the Anti-Bullying petition because a bully signed it too?I'm confused...."
Anne didn't just sign the petition, she originated it.
I don't know why you said no one wants to sign the Anti-Bullying petition. Lots of people have signed it.
Zahara wrote: "If it weren't for the fact that your post was directed towards readers and you signed a petition that would penalize readers who review I'd believe you. Believe me or not. The post was directed towards bullies, period. You read "readers" into it. GO FIND ANYWHERE ON MY POST WHERE I SAID THIS WAS DIRECTED AT READERS AND NOT AUTHORS. Really, don't waste your time. It's not there.
Elle, you keep saying that you want this to happen on Amazon; people being required to use their real names. So, two things.One) you do realize that most of the users here have Amazon accts, correct? That it's the site where most of GRs users buy their books? A lot of people even have their accts synced. You're comments seem to be implying that people here shouldn't care about what happens on Amazon.
And so I don't get accused of putting words in your mouth.
(view spoiler)
Two) do you really not see the danger in something like this? Our Amazon accts are not just reviewing profiles. They contain our full names, home addresses, possibly addresses of family and friends, our phone numbers and often several credit card numbers.
I find it hard to believe any rational person, who claims to care so much about the safety of others, or at least the safety of their feelings, would be so quick to put others at risk. Or so quick to brush aside the real, possibly harmful, ramifications of something like this.
You also keep saying that this only applies to certain people. 'Bullies'. People who leave a negative review of a book they haven't read. People who post on their personal blogs about an authors behavior. People who choose not to sit back and ignore it when an author and their fans are attacking negative reviews. Which is strange in itself seeing how you keep saying that authors shouldn't have to sit back and take it. But apparently, reviewers should. Or they're bullies.
Again, I'm only going by what you yourself have written. Yes, I've read your entire post along with all your comments. And I gots me a college edumacation and everything, in case you were wondering.
You only discuss reviewers. You never once mention authors. You still haven't answered the question of pseudonyms that's been asked of you, repeatedly.
I'm genuinely curious how you determine who these bullies are? How do you know they haven't read the book? How do you decide what is a non-bullying level of discussion about the author in a book review? How do you determine a persons motivations? You said ..
"Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
How do know what someone's thinking when they post? How do you determine someone's motivivations for pushing the down-vote button? Does up-voting b/c you want to help the authors sales also count? How do you stop an author who decides that a legitimate negative review is a personal attack from doing something harmful with that reviewers real name?
Bottom line, who gets to decide which reviews are bullying and which are just harsh criticism? The author? (See examples below) How do you plan to keep people's other private information safe when their real names are revealed? Again, what about author pseudonyms? Does this apply to all product reviews? Or just book reviews, say, two stars and under?
An author just last week, one of many, claimed a one-star review of her book was a coordinated troll attack. Just a single one-star review, one in which the reviewer had posted multiple status updates and simply said the book was terribly written and she had a hard time believing the author had been a writer for over forty years. Is that bullying? The author seemed to think so.
This author went to the review to state it was 'proof that trolls still exist on GRs'. She then went to several other threads, unrelated threads, to tell everyone about how she was a victim of a troll attack, and, what'd ya know, bullying. She also wrote a blog linking to the review and calling the reviewer, and a couple friends who'd commented on her status updates, a psychopath with mental illness. She posted that same link and commentary on her fb page, as well.
Another author a few days prior got upset b/c the reviewer gave her book a one-star with a 'full review to come' note in the body. Apparently the reviewer took too long and when the author started commenting on the review, accusing the reviewer of not having read the book, and sending her hostile pm's, the reviewer then 'bullied' the author by deleting her unwelcome comments.
"Again, I'll say it ... this is not about legitimate negative reviews written by people who read the book and didn't like it. That is a different thing altogether. Please re-read the post if you don't understand what i'm saying here. "
Both of those authors are in line with Anne Rice and the site that harasses reviewers that several other posters have mentioned to you. So, no, people aren't twisting your words and their reading comprehension is just fine. The problem seems to be that you've not thought this through and don't really have any idea of what actually goes on. Or that you're just thinking emotionally and not rationally.
It also may be beneficial to add something to your post. Since you're not really talking about all online bullying. Just alleged bullying within the book community. I'm sure you're aware the problem of online bullying, actual online bullying, is a lot more vast.
Oh, and I'm friends with KarlynP and her comment here was at the very top of my feed. I also own two of your books, in case you feel that's necessary information.
Eta: apologies for being redundant. There was only one page of comments while I was typing. :-/
Zahara wrote: "Mama wrote: "So Anne Rice is a bully and she also signed the Anti-Bullying petition? So no one wants to sign the Anti-Bullying petition because a bully signed it too?I'm confused...."
Anne didn't..."
But people don't want to be connected with it, because of her?
But it's anti-bullying right?
But should include Authors as well?
"No one"
-sorry, should have typed "More or Many people don't want to sign" it because of Anne Rice.
What possible good would having someone's real name make? If the posting is truly criminal bullying or harassment, Amazon has the real life data linked to that account and the proper authorities could get it. Otherwise why would an author or (any other person on Amazon) need that data. if there were no bad intentions and wouldn't take any actions, they don't need real names. If they do have bad intentions it makes it easy for some disgruntled author to track them down in real life all over a bad review.
We all know the reasons for the real name - that way readers can be harassed at home. One google search and now you're dead. Stalkers sound the world rejoice. There's no other reason for it. Spare me the "it'll stop bullies!" BS. People at schools get bullied face to face so that's nothing.
It's another way to control reviewers and silence women.
I'd love to see some links to these supposed fake reviews.
Stop scolding and lecturing me, you big ol' bully you.
Elle wrote: Believe me or not. The post was directed towards bullies, period. You read "readers" into it. GO FIND ANYWHERE ON MY POST WHERE I SAID THIS WAS DIRECTED AT READERS AND NOT AUTHORS. Really, don't waste your time. It's not there. You started your post with talking about online bullying of authors. You state that you signed the petition, which is specifically about book reviewing.
"The purpose of this petition is to bring to the attention of Mr. Bezos, Mr. Fine, and anyone else employed by Amazon or its subsidiaries, the lack of oversight and or control in the Amazon system regarding product reviewing—in particular book reviewing—and in the participation of the many forums on Amazon."
Of the 9 "You know you’re an online bully when …" statements, 6 specifically mention bullying against authors and 2 imply it.
There is nothing in your post that implies or states in any way that it was directed at authors.
Tell me how I could not get the message from your post that it was directed at readers?
Mama wrote: But people don't want to be connected with it, because of her?But it's anti-bullying right?
But should include Authors as well?
"No one"
-sorry, should have typed "More or Many people don't want to sign" it because of Anne Rice.
I'm sorry, Mama. I don't know what you're talking about.
I have seen it work.A local news site now requires you to sign in with your FB account to comment on news stories.
Comments are not as scathing or evil.
But there are a lot less.
Although I don't think it is the answer to Amazon.
There needs to be a better solution.
Perhaps "Flag" as inappropriate, and it gets hidden for moderation after a number of "flag" hits on that comment.
IDK.
There needs to be a better way to stop bullying.
I am against bullying.
Real Name? Well, you can still make an Amazon account with a Fake Name.
So your account's Real Name would be your Fake Name.
But why go to all that trouble, seems a waste of time.
I don't know...I am rambling now.
It's a problem, is there a better solution? Anyone?
Many feel a Real name isn't it...so what would be better?
Zahara wrote: "Mama wrote: But people don't want to be connected with it, because of her?But it's anti-bullying right?
But should include Authors as well?
"No one"
-sorry, should have typed "More or Many people..."
I'm just confused. I don't know the Anne Rice thing, I don't know the petition thing. I thought the petition was against bullying.
Okay, this is a monster big reply, so I'm going to respond in the middle as I go along in CAPS so you can see them. Just know I am not yelling. :)TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "Elle, you keep saying that you want this to happen on Amazon; people being required to use their real names. So, two things.
One) you do realize that most of the users here have Amazon accts, correct? That it's the site where most of GRs users buy their books? A lot of people even have their accts synced. You're comments seem to be implying that people here shouldn't care about what happens on Amazon.
I DO REALIZE GR AND AMAZON ARE NOW LINKED. ALTHOUGH, THESE ARE NOT THE ONLY TWO REVIEW FORUMS ONLINE BY A LONG SHOT. WHY DOES WHAT I SAY SOMEHOW MEAN YOU SHOULDN'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS THERE? YOU SHOULD CARE VERY MUCH, ACTUALLY. BULLIES ARE RUINING A GREAT RESOURCE FOR READERS. I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAME TO THIS CONCLUSION.
And so I don't get accused of putting words in your mouth.
(view spoiler)
Two) do you really not see the danger in something like this? Our Amazon accts are not just reviewing profiles. They contain our full names, home addresses, possibly addresses of family and friends, our phone numbers and often several credit card numbers.
I'M CERTAINLY NOT SUGGESTING THAT AMAZON SHARE YOUR PERSONAL DATA. I SAID NAMES ONLY AND THAT ANY LOCATION DATA BE REMOVED. THAT WAS POSTED IN THE THREAD SOMEWHERE BY ME.
I find it hard to believe any rational person, who claims to care so much about the safety of others, or at least the safety of their feelings, would be so quick to put others at risk. Or so quick to brush aside the real, possibly harmful, ramifications of something like this.
THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE ON AMAZON WHO POST WITH THEIR REAL NAMES. PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO BLOG USING THEIR REAL NAMES. PLENTY OF PEOPLE MAKE THEIR FACEBOOK PROFILES PUBLIC. REVEALING YOUR NAME IS NOT AN INVITATION TO BE STALKED OR KILLED AND I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT I DIDN'T CARE ABOUT PEOPLE'S SAFETY. YOU ASSUME THAT BUT IT'S NOT BEEN SAID BY ME OR SUGGESTED IN ANY WAY.
You also keep saying that this only applies to certain people. 'Bullies'. People who leave a negative review of a book they haven't read. People who post on their personal blogs about an authors behavior.
STOP RIGHT THERE. I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SIMPLY POSTING ON PERSONAL BLOGS ABOUT BEHAVIOR. READ MY POST AGAIN. BUT YES, THIS POST IS ABOUT BULLIES, AND I DID LIST SEVERAL ACTIONS PERPETRATED BY BULLIES ONLINE.
People who choose not to sit back and ignore it when an author and their fans are attacking negative reviews.
WAIT? WHAT? WHERE DOES MY POST SAY THAT?
Which is strange in itself seeing how you keep saying that authors shouldn't have to sit back and take it.
WAIT AGAIN? WHAT? WHERE DID I SAY THAT? YOU SEEM TO IMPLY THAT I'VE MADE A CALL TO ACTION TO GET AUTHORS TO COME TOGETHER TO ATTACK!! WRONG. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I DON'T DO THAT.
But apparently, reviewers should. Or they're bullies.
WHERE DID I SAY THAT? WHAT?
Again, I'm only going by what you yourself have written.
I BELIEVE YOU ARE TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT SINCE I CAN'T FIND WHERE I SAID THAT. NONE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING EVEN RESEMBLES MY POST.
Yes, I've read your entire post along with all your comments. And I gots me a college edumacation and everything, in case you were wondering.
YOUR SNIDE COMMENT ABOUT YOUR EDUMACATION SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT I ASSUMED OTHERWISE ABOUT YOU? BUT THAT COULDN'T BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH. AVID READERS ARE HIGHLY INTELLIGENT IN MY EXPERIENCE. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T LET THEIR PASSION GET AWAY FROM THEM AND FAIL TO READ CAREFULLY. YOU HAVE ALREADY PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH YET I CAN SEE YOU ARE WELL-READ AND WRITE WELL. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU READ MY WORDS CAREFULLY SO YOU DON'T JUMP TO INCORRECT CONCLUSIONS. ME REMINDING YOU OF THIS IS NOT MEANT TO INSULT YOUR INTELLIGENCE. IT'S A PLEA TO SLOW DOWN AND TAKE CARE, BECAUSE THIS IS A BIG DEAL AND NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD SPIN OUT OF CONTROL BASED ON EMOTION AND PAST HISTORY THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME OR MY POST.
You only discuss reviewers. You never once mention authors.
NOT TRUE. I ONLY MENTION "REVIEWERS" OR PEOPLE WHO LEAVE REVIEWS IN MY POST AND THOSE CAN BE ANYONE, READERS OR WRITERS. IN FACT, THEY ARE IN MY CASE USUALLY PISSED OFF AUTHORS, NOT READERS. YES, IT'S TRUE. :)
You still haven't answered the question of pseudonyms that's been asked of you, repeatedly.
YES I HAVE. BETTER SCROLL THROUGH THE THREAD.
I'm genuinely curious how you determine who these bullies are? How do you know they haven't read the book? How do you decide what is a non-bullying level of discussion about the author in a book review? How do you determine a persons motivations? You said .. "Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
I ALREADY ANSWERED THIS ONE TOO. A COUPLE TIMES.
How do know what someone's thinking when they post? How do you determine someone's motivivations for pushing the down-vote button? Does up-voting b/c you want to help the authors sales also count? How do you stop an author who decides that a legitimate negative review is a personal attack from doing something harmful with that reviewers real name?
I ALREADY ANSWERED THAT ONE TOO. I CAN'T GUESS ABOUT ANYTHING. I CAN ONLY KNOW WHAT'S FACT. I'VE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS IN THE THREAD.
Bottom line, who gets to decide which reviews are bullying and which are just harsh criticism?
THE POINT IS THAT MOST OF THIS BEHAVIOR WILL JUST END BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT BULLY IF THEIR NAME IS ATTACHED TO THEIR WORDS. NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO "DECIDE" ANYTHING.
The author? (See examples below) How do you plan to keep people's other private information safe when their real names are revealed?
HOW DOES YOUR NAME REVEAL YOUR CREDIT CARD DATA? YOUR ADDRESS? YOUR PHONE NUMBER? I'M NOT SAYING AMAZON SHOULD RELEASE ANY OF THAT.
Again, what about author pseudonyms?
I ALREADY ANSWERED THAT ONE. DIDN'T YOU ALREADY ASK THIS?
Does this apply to all product reviews? Or just book reviews, say, two stars and under?
IT SHOULD APPLY TO EVERYTHING. I KNOW COMPETITORS GO AFTER OTHER COMPETITORS AND LEAVE FAKE REVIEWS OF PRODUCTS TOO.
An author just last week, one of many, claimed a one-star review of her book was a coordinated troll attack. Just a single one-star review, one in which the reviewer had posted multiple status updates and simply said the book was terribly written and she had a hard time believing the author had been a writer for over forty years. Is that bullying? The author seemed to think so.
I CAN'T SPEAK ABOUT WHAT OTHER AUTHORS CLAIM OR DO. I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE BULLYING FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCES. IT'S ON THE THREAD HERE.
This author went to the review to state it was 'proof that trolls still exist on GRs'. She then went to several other threads, unrelated threads, to tell everyone about how she was a victim of a troll attack, and, what'd ya know, bullying. She also wrote a blog linking to the review and calling the reviewer, and a couple friends who'd commented on her status updates, a psychopath with mental illness. She posted that same link and commentary on her fb page, as well.
THAT PERSON IS NOT ME. BUT YOU BRING THAT PERSON INTO THIS DISCUSSION TO SOMEHOW SHOW THAT WE ARE THE SAME? DOES THAT MAKE IT OKAY THEN TO MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ME THAT ARE NOT TRUE? HOW IS THAT FAIR?
Another author a few days prior got upset b/c the reviewer gave her book a one-star with a 'full review to come' note in the body. Apparently the reviewer took too long and when the author started commenting on the review, accusing the reviewer of not having read the book, and sending her hostile pm's, the reviewer then 'bullied' the author by deleting her unwelcome comments.
AGAIN, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ME OR ANYTHING I'VE SAID? I AM NOT THAT PERSON. I AM ME.
"Again, I'll say it ... this is not about legitimate negative reviews written by people who read the book and didn't like it. That is a different thing altogether. Please re-read the post if you don't understand what i'm saying here. "
Both of those authors are in line with Anne Rice and the site that harasses reviewers that several other posters have mentioned to you. So, no, people aren't twisting your words and their reading comprehension is just fine. The problem seems to be that you've not thought this through and don't really gave any idea of what goes on. Or that you're thinking emotionally and not rationally.
ACTUALLY, I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT GOES ON IN MY WORLD. I DON'T SPEAK FOR OTHER AUTHORS, I SPEAK FOR MYSELF. AND I POST BASED ON MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. I HAVE MORE THAN THOUGHT IT THROUGH, I HAVE LIVED IT. I'M EMOTIONAL AND RATIONAL AND ALSO EDUMACATED, JUST LIKE YOU. I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE YOUR COMMENTS HERE AND ASSIGN THEM TO ALL READERS. I WILL JUDGE YOU SOLEY BY YOUR ACTIONS AND WORDS. I ASK THAT YOU DO THE SAME FOR ME.
It also may be beneficial to add something to your post. Since you're not really talking about all online bullying. Just alleged bullying within the book community. I'm sure you're aware the problem of online bullying, actual online bullying, is a lot more vast.
I DON'T NEED TO ADD TO MY POST, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE POST YOU WILL SEE THAT I INCLUDED ALL PEOPLE IN MY POST AND THE TYPE OF BULLYING I WAS ADDRESSING. NOWHERE ANYWHERE DOES THAT POST SAY IT'S ONLY ABOUT READER BULLIES OR THAT IT'S MEANT TO INCLUDE EVERY KIND OF BULLYING UNDER THE SUN. IT JUST DOESN'T. ANY THOUGHT OR IDEA THAT THIS IS FOCUSED ON READER BULLIES IS AN ASSUMPTION YOU MADE BASED ON YOUR PAST EXPERIENCES. THOSE PAST EXPERIENCES TAINT YOUR PERSPECTIVE. I WISH THAT HADN'T HAPPENED, BUT I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER HOW YOU VIEW THINGS.
Oh, and I'm friends with KarlynP and her comment here was at the very top of my feed. I also own two of your books, in case you feel that's necessary information.
NOPE, IT'S NOT NECESSARY INFORMATION. I'M HAPPY TO KNOW YOU'RE A READER, AND THAT YOU HAVE NOT JUST ONE BUT TWO OF MY BOOKS. I HOPE THAT MEANS YOU AT LEAST LIKED THE FIRST ONE.
"
"You ask if I have called you a bully because you didn't spell out your name. Where is that coming from? Where in my post did I say ANYWHERE that people who don't give their names are bullies?? "True, you didn't. However, the group Anne Rice supports (and the one I assumed you did too, so glad to know that isn't the case) often does. They have tried to out me and many others, they have successfully done so with a few, and their reason is not just to scare us into silence. They want to cause us harm. All because we called bullshit to then attacking and intimidating honest reviewers.
I won't disagree that there are some abusive reviews out there. When Charlaine Harris's last book came out it got attacked big time by upset fans. When controversial books come out, such as 'How to cure homosexuality', they often get attacked. Paula Deans cookbooks were also attacked...etc. It happens. Real identities may have deterred a bunch of these. Maybe.
But is the price really worth it? Authors struggle to get any reviews. While Anne Rice can certainly afford if a bunch of her reviews were suddenly deleted by members who refuse to convert to 'real identities', many small authors cannot. Erotica authors can kiss a ton of reviews goodbye.
But it is a moot point. As I said before, I am not worried it will ever be reality. This is nothing more than a philosophical debate. I realize that many who signed that petition might find 4,000 signatures significant, but to Amazon it will mean nothing. Amazon's privacy policy is not just their policy; consumer privacy is very much protected under the LAW. So for Amazon to change that policy, they will need to get lawyers involved and change actual FEDERAL laws. Not going to happen. 4,000 people would barely make up a small farm town in the Midwest. Amazon has BILLIONS of customers to think about. Compare that to 4,000? That petition needs to hit a few million to make any significance.
"I'm going to finish my comment to you by saying I'm very happy to have you as a fan and I'm thrilled you have taken the time not only to review my work but share it with your friends. I don't want you to regret that. I'm not an asshole. I'm not Anne Rice."
I appreciate this. I honestly loved your book. I won't change my Goodreads review, it will stand. However, I did delete the one I posted on Amazon, I hope you understand. If you firmly believe that reviews and comments on Amazon should only be posted under the users real name, then it shouldn't be there.
All the best
Zahara wrote: "EYou started your post with talking about online bullying of authors. You state that you signed the petition, which is specifically about book reviewing."The purpose of this petition is to bring to the attention of Mr. Bezos, Mr. Fine, and anyone else employed by Amazon or its subsidiaries, the lack of oversight and or control in the Amazon system regarding product reviewing—in particular book reviewing—and in the participation of the many forums on Amazon."
Of the 9 "You know you’re an online bully when …" statements, 6 specifically mention bullying against authors and 2 imply it.
There is nothing in your post that implies or states in any way that it was directed at authors.
Tell me how I could not get the message from your post that it was directed at readers."
I've already answered this elsewhere. I'm going to come at it from another angle to help make it clearer:
Who posts reviews on Amazon? "Reviewers"
Who are reviewers? "People who post on Amazon."
Who are the people who post on Amazon? ANYONE. A reader who works at Wal-Mart. A reader who is a stay-at-home mom. A person who writes books for a living.
Do you get it now?
As I've said many times, the people who usually come after me are other AUTHORS.
Mama wrote: "I have seen it work.A local news site now requires you to sign in with your FB account to comment on news stories.
Comments are not as scathing or evil.
But there are a lot less.
Most news sites use Disqus, Mama and yes, you can log in using facebook but you don't have to and no it doesn't stop anyone for being abusive.
Although I do..."
In2books wrote: "What possible good would having someone's real name make? If the posting is truly criminal bullying or harassment, Amazon has the real life data linked to that account and the proper authorities co..."I already explained my reason for wanting this in my original post. I won't repeat it here.
Hey anyone want pizza?I'm hungry.
I'm passing out Happy Sunflowers.
Come on now, I'm calling Jazzy Butts down here, she's funny.
Where is the wine?
Anyway.
ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "Elle wrote: "BUT, the idea that someone would come after me to hurt me for no other reason than they just had a bad day, or they're jealous (some of the biggest bullies in my life have been other ..."I don't need to do due diligence just because I read an article online and signed a petition whose goals I agree with. Seriously. Do you really think that?
Here's the thing ... many of you seem to be saying that if I sign a petition that Anne has also signed that I am now blacklisted. I will be tarred and feathered because I have somehow been tainted by her background. That even though you have read and enjoyed my work and me as an author, you will now refuse to have anything to do with me, IN SPITE of the fact that I am my own person with my own thoughts and ideas and background that have nothing to do with Anne or any websites she's a part of.
Go ahead and rise up against me if you must. Shut me out. Refuse to support me as an author. You have to do what you feel is right.
But I hope before you do that you read my post fully and the comments I've put here. I am asking for the hate to stop. I am asking for people to take responsibility for what they say when they say it. That's it. I'm not asking for authors to ban together, to go after readers. I'm not asking Anne to come to Thanksgiving and partake of a turkey with me.
No one has offered me a better solution to ridding Amazon of bullies. You've had plenty to say about how wrong I am, but what is the solution that you have for the problem? Because ignoring it isn't working, in case you haven't noticed.
Mama wrote: "Hey anyone want pizza?I'm hungry.
I'm passing out Happy Sunflowers.
Come on now, I'm calling Jazzy Butts down here, she's funny.
Where is the wine?
Anyway."
I'm not sure how many people will get the Jazzy Butts reference, but I appreciate the sunflowers!
Linda wrote: "Guess what, Ms. Casey. I use my real name. And I still think your idea is misguided and foolish and counterproductive."Okay. Thanks.
♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "I appreciate this. I honestly loved your book. I won't change my Goodreads review, it will stand. However, I did delete the one I posted on Amazon, I hope you understand. If you firmly believe that reviews and comments on Amazon should only be posted under the users real name, then it shouldn't be there.All the best ."
I guess that'll teach me to post stuff on my blog about bullies. I just don't know who wins and loses on this one. I can see, though, why authors disappear from the public eye and never come out again. No matter what you do, it's never right.
Elle wrote: "ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "Elle wrote: "BUT, the idea that someone would come after me to hurt me for no other reason than they just had a bad day, or they're jealous (some of the biggest bullie..."Would you care to take a leadership position in the anti-anonymity debate and post your address for all the world to see?
Miss Casey, GR is a place where people come and read books or use their reviewing space to catalogue a book they don't want to read and therefore keep track of them.Also, the more I read your response to the rightful criticism this... post has elicited the more convince I become that you are merely crying because people just don't like your books. Which is weird because your books have insanely high ratings.
That little titbit on exposing your name online?
Horrible idea, Miss Casey, as it shows you do not understand the risk and dangers a person maybe in for simply for writing a bad review. You also, do not understand bullying and therefore should not talk about it and offend real victims of bullying. Writing a review on a book you haven't read is not bullying, it is simply stating an opinion and cataloguing a book.
Also, Miss Anne Rice is a horrible and self absorbed bully. Please do your homework before you speak.
Thank you,
Signed, with regards, a person who believes in free speech and expressing of opinion.
As KLP said, this is really just a philosophical debate, because first, Amazon CANNOT be forced to accede to the petition, and they've already taken a legal stance supporting reviewer privacy, second, because if they decided to force billions of customers to reveal private identities, the sheer magnitude of not only financial loss, but loss oftrust and credibility with consumers would be tremendous.
You claim that you are listing "bad behavior" that is attributable to either authors or readers. You claim that you are not solely trying to repress the freedom of expression of reviewers, but also trying to correct authors' bad behavior.
You assert that those who think otherwise did not read your original post carefully enough.
Well I did.
And of the numerous "bully" behaviors you list, only TWO could be fairly directed to both authors and reviewers. EVERY OTHER DIRECTIVE IS ONLY GEARED TOWARDS PROTECTING AUTHORS. You cannot argue that the following statements are equally directed to both authors and readers:
"You see a message from someone online discussing an AUTHOR's poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment.
And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious."
Clearly you are biased in favor of believing that authors are the innocent targets of reader vengeance. What about the reviewers who are only presenting their honest opinions about their reading experience, but who have been repeatedly and viciously attacked by authors, authors' family members (including husbands), and authors' friends and fangirls. What about reviewers who are terrorized away from leaving reviews because of the baseless and nasty accusations that are hurled at them by this lynch mob of blind supporters of the authors. I think your list is lacking a number of bullying behaviors:
You know you are a bully when:
-You see a negative review with which you disagree, you post a reply comment accusing the reviewer of being a troll, or of not having read the book, or of not understanding the book, because you refuse to accept that people can disagree and have different opinions
-You accuse people who post negative reviews that are based upon their opinion of the merits of the book of launching an ad hominen (personal) attack on the author, because you cannot separate a critique of the merits of a book from an attack on the author.
-you attack anyone who posts a review based upon a portion of a book, even if that portion was so badly written as to make the reader know that they have no desire to read further, because you refuse to acknowlege that bad writing and poor editing render a book less worthy of being read.
-You encourage fans to attack and criticize anyone who posts less than a five (or possibly four) star review, because you think that no one can prove that you encouraged that behavior.
-you encourage people to post rave reviews in exchange for free books or money without disclosing that they have received a benefit for their review, because you refuse to accept that this behavior violates the law.
These are just some of the poor bullying or unethical behaviors displayed by authors these days. Yet you do not seem to be remonstrating or discouraging that type of behavior. Rather your posts seem focused on behaviors that result in less-than-favorable reviews.
If it were left up to the majority of authors who post on Facebook, on twitter, on Amazon, and on goodreads! the only comments allowable would be rave, five star reviews. No one else would be permitted to speak. Because clearly if I do not think a book is worthy of 5 stars I must not have read it! Or I must be an idiot. Because any normal person of reasonable intelligence would, when reading the masterpieces (self-)published these days, be overwhelmed with the beauty and profound impact of the writing and plot. (And, just in case it is not clear, the last three sentences were sarcastic.)
You know what? Go ahead and submit the petition to Amazon. If Amazon is so foolish as to implement the demands of delusional and whiny and entitled authors, then I will trust no reviews on Amazon, and I will make my Ebook purchases elsewhere.
OldRocker wrote: Would you care to take a leadership position in the anti-anonymity debate and post your address for all the world to see? Where on my post or anywhere on this 3 page thread have you seen me advocating for anyone having their address revealed? Nowhere, that's where. And where have you seen me advocating for anything AT ALL to be revealed on GR? Nowhere, that's where.
See, the thing is, I have already taken a leadership position. I posted a VERY controversial topic on my blog that has generated huge amounts of attention, 99.9% of it negative, at great risk to my own business.
You can already see readers who like my work now saying they won't read it anymore. Reviews are being taken down. It's so sad.
I've posted for 2 years on Goodreads, countless blog posts through my website about any number of topics, and none of them has gotten even 10% of this kind of reaction. Only when I mention bullies being exposed do I suddenly have the flames up my backside.
I really don't know why I even bother trying to do anything to help. It's very disheartening. Bullies win again.
Elle wrote: "No one has offered me a better solution to ridding Amazon of bullies. You've had plenty to say about how wrong I am, but what is the solution that you have for the problem? Because ignoring it isn't working, in case you haven't noticed."
Let me share a bit of history with you Elle. I was an active member of the Amazon communities from 2006 until about 2011. It was a wonderful community until around 2009, then the abuse started. Oh, and in time it got horrible!! But, it is not the kind of abuse you think. It was the authors. The spamming, schilling, and scamming was RAMPANT!! It was like having a nice dinner with friends, with us all chatting books, and a constant swarm of locus swarms around our head.
In 2011 the readers had enough. Amazon was not responding fast enough. So there was a mass exodus of the core Amazon community users, and we began a group here called the Romance Forum Refugees. I know this because I have been one of the moderators from day 1. Within days the group had many hundreds of readers swearing Amazon to hell for not managing the problem on that site.
This was our solution back then. Many of us found a new home on Goodreads and never looked back. But the problem of authors abusing the communities still existed, and Amazon forced all authors into the Meet Our Authors group. The authors complained about being ill treated, but sadly it was their own fault. Amazon made it clear they will crack down on the 'shameless promotions' (their words!), and for a while they did.
This is how a lot of the tension and divide started. Then the authors started attacking reviewers on Goodreads, spamming, schilling and scamming away. So yes, the tension grew here too. Goodreads has been a lot better at dealing with it than Amazon, but it isn't perfect here either.
Elle wrote: Do you get it now?As I've said many times, the people who usually come after me are other AUTHORS.
Nope. It doesn't matter who comes after you. The implication of your post is that you are attacking readers and siding with authors.
No matter how much you may think you are not taking sides, your post says otherwise.
You may want to take a fresh look at your post from the position of a non-author reviewer and ask yourself what you think. Or not.
Eva Rose wrote: "Miss Casey, GR is a place where people come and read books or use their reviewing space to catalogue a book they don't want to read and therefore keep track of them.Also, the more I read your response to the rightful criticism this... post has elicited the more convince I become that you are merely crying because people just don't like your books. Which is weird because your books have insanely high ratings.
That little titbit on exposing your name online?
Horrible idea, Miss Casey, as it shows you do not understand the risk and dangers a person maybe in for simply for writing a bad review. You also, do not understand bullying and therefore should not talk about it and offend real victims of bullying. Writing a review on a book you haven't read is not bullying, it is simply stating an opinion and cataloguing a book.
Also, Miss Anne Rice is a horrible and self absorbed bully. Please do your homework before you speak.
Thank you,
Signed, with regards, a person who believes in free speech and expressing of opinion. "
Since you did notice that I have "insanely high ratings", I guess you can see that your conclusion that I'm crying about my reviews can't possibly be correct. I have ZERO problem with my reviews. The more I write, the better they get. I suppose my skill improves with every word written, maybe.
Maybe I will be crying in a couple days though, when all the bullies who read these posts decide to punish me, who knows? They can do it undercover, so I'll never know what really happens. I just have to keep on writing and hoping things don't get out of hand.
I am a Goodreads member and have been for about 2 years. I know well what it's for. I haven't mentioned anything about making changes on GR, have I? Nope. Haven't. Keep on cataloging. But if you write a negative review for a book you have zero knowledge of, and you pretend to be writing a book you have read, then yeah, you're a bully. Your only goal is to hurt the author in that case. That's not cataloging. I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing there.
Elle wrote: No one has offered me a better solution to ridding Amazon of bullies.Just because nobody has offered you a better solution does not mean that the solution in the petition you signed is an improvement on what is currently happening.
Elle wrote: Only when I mention bullies being exposed do I suddenly have the flames up my backside. I really don't know why I even bother trying to do anything to help. It's very disheartening. Bullies win again. ..."
While I find everyone on here trying to explain to you as readers how we feel about the petition in a very reasonable way, you are not listening to us, Elle. And you just called all of us bullies. We are NOT BULLLYING we are debating this issue with you. Flaming....Karlyn stated she is not going to change her goodreads review but removed her Amazon review because you don't believe reviewers should be able to post reviews unless they use their real names. Karlyn does not want to use her real name, therefore she has agreed that since you don't believe reviewers should use screen names she will remove her review. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Bullies my ass.
Okay, I can't go through all of that piece by piece. I'm too tired and frankly, I'm disheartened. I am simply amazed that an author doesn't understand the implications of her words. Just b/c you haven't said something word for word, doesn't mean the implication isn't there. And, yeah, you are insulting all of our intelligence and your own when you pretend otherwise. My snide comment was b/c I was getting tired of you telling everyone to go re-read your post, over and over again. Maybe you don't mean it that way, but it's condescending. How many times did you say it to me in just that one post? I assure you, I read everything you've written and I wasn't rushing. I understand just fine.
Maybe the problem doesn't lie with everyone twisting your words or not reading them properly? I think maybe you are the one would benefit from a little re-reading here. And also looking a little deeper into the situation. Then maybe people's comments and arguments will make a little more sense.
TBH, I'm not trying to be an asshole. I'm just so tired. I'm straight up exhausted with this review crap. B/c no matter what you or any other authors say, it is always about the reviews. These authors are ruining reading for so many people and you really don't understand what those authors have to do with you? When you're touting their agendas? (Which you are. Even if it's unintentional) If you can't see that, I doubt anything anyone says here will help, but I beg you to think about it.. Even still, I'm basing my assumptions and opinions on nothing but your own words.
Again, these are your words.
"You know you're an online bully when...
You’re not a forum moderator, but you go to the forums and “police” them anyway, scolding, lecturing, or taking action against other posters when they do things that don’t follow your rules of proper behavior.
You see a message from someone online discussing an author’s poor behavior, and then seek out that author online and say negative things to or about her, like a judge meting out a form of punishment. And/or you incite others to join the fray. The overriding thought here is: “We need to teach that author a lesson.”
You write a negative book review for a book you haven’t read.
You write a book review that includes negative personal judgments about the author.
You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…”
You down-vote positive reviews for any reason other than it was not helpful to your buying decision. e.g. You use down-voting to manipulate an author’s ranking as a form of punishment or retribution.
You threaten physical violence to an author.
You threaten to harm the reputation, career, sales, or income of a writer.
You accuse an author of buying reviews or gaming the system when you have no actual proof and only suppositions based on detective work that consists of reading reviews and finding them suspicious."
You also didn't answer any of my questions. Not one. All you've said is, this has nothing to do with me, I didn't say that exactly, that's not what I meant, etc. etc. Who gets to determine who's a bully and who's just a critical reviewer? Or an opinionated reader with a big mouth?
I really, really hope that you'll honestly look at the things people have said here. You seem like a good person and I truly want to believe that while misguided, your intentions are good.
Have a good night, Elle.
Oh, and I haven't read either of your books yet. But only b/c my TBR is enormous and I haven't had the chance.
Elle wrote: "OldRocker wrote: Would you care to take a leadership position in the anti-anonymity debate and post your address for all the world to see? Where on my post or anywhere on this 3 page thread have..."
Miss Casey you have brought negative attention on yourself, you have no one to blame for everyone dislikes of your actions but your own person. Please don't pin this on us. We did not force you to write the self adsorbed post that you did, nor did we force you to post it.
Own up to your actions like a mature person. Apologize like many authors who have said wrong things have and be done with it. Don't whine and say the bullies have won again, it is unbecoming of your professional standing as an author.
Elle wrote: "Zahara wrote: "Elle wrote: Actually, that's not correct. Amazon allows people who didn't buy the book there to review the book there. Reviews are supposed to be about the book to be in their terms ..."I cannot believe you can't do basic research before signing your name, along with reputation and livelihood, to an online petition after reading one article.
He is a freelance author who has been courting Anne Rice's favor in order to get referrals.
Elle wrote: "I guess that'll teach me to post stuff on my blog about bullies. I just don't know who wins and loses on this one. I can see, though, why authors disappear from the public eye and never come out again. No matter what you do, it's never right."
If you signed and supported a petition that only required 'bullies' to display their identity, or was specific to only 'bullies', I would not have deleted it. But you support a petition that requires EVERYONE to reveal their identity, bully or not. That petition is far from being just about the bullies, but it pretends to be the solution. A bad one, IMO.
To be very clear, that petition is NOT about stopping bullies. That petition you signed is asking Amazon to expose ALL of its members real life identities. That includes me. I support your opinion, wrong as I believe it is, so yes I removed my 'anonymous' review of your book from Amazon.
But it's a moot point. Far too many privacy advocacy groups, who are very well funded and organized, would squash this down pronto.
Ambrosia, you just republished the things I had already said in not only my post but all over this thread. And I don't think we disagree about bad author behavior. Like I've said many times, most of the trouble I've had has come from people who write for a living. Bullies are everywhere. Keeping them from being able to hide behind usernames is my solution. What's yours?
Elle wrote: "OldRocker wrote: Would you care to take a leadership position in the anti-anonymity debate and post your address for all the world to see? Where on my post or anywhere on this 3 page thread have..."
You signed a petition suggesting that very thing.
Perhaps the reason you have attracted such negative attention is because the majority of people strongly disagree with your opinion and are not bullies at all?
♡KarLynP♡ wrote: "Let me share a bit of history with you Elle. I was an active member of the Amazon communities from 2006 until about 2011. It was a wonderful community until around 2009, then the abuse started. Oh, and in time it got horrible!! But, it is not the kind of abuse you think. It was the authors. The spamming, schilling, and scamming was RAMPANT!! It was like having a nice dinner with friends, with us all chatting books, and a constant swarm of locus swarms around our head. ..."I know about that stuff. Have you been to those boards lately? *shudder* The trolls are completely out of control over there. They attack for anything without provocation.
I hate author self-promotion as much as you do. Not only is it annoying but it's embarrassing. I get lumped in with people who do that. Ugh.
Amazon is broken. It needs fixing. What's your solution?
Elle wrote: I am asking for the hate to stop. I am asking for people to take responsibility for what they say when they say it. That's it. If you're asking for people to take responsibility for what they say, then you need to ask that Amazon force people to include not only their real name, but also their street address, city, state and/or country. There is no other way to know what person is to take responsibility.
Suppose my name is Nancy Moore. Do you know which Nancy Moore that is? What Nancy Moore is taking responsibility for her comments? How many Nancy Moore's are there in the world?
Someone with a very common name is not going to have any problem. John Smith can be as big a bully as Amazon will let him. How would anyone know what John Smith he is?
But Clementina St. Boomersmitheringly isn't going to be so lucky. There aren't a lot of people around with her name.
Zahara wrote: "Nope. It doesn't matter who comes after you. The implication of your post is that you are attacking readers and siding with authors.No matter how much you may think you are not taking sides, your post says otherwise.
You may want to take a fresh look at your post from the position of a non-author reviewer and ask yourself what you think. Or not. .."
I'm comfortable with my post as written. You interpret as you wish. I've given up on convincing you otherwise.
Erin wrote: "While I find everyone on here trying to explain to you as readers how we feel about the petition in a very reasonable way, you are not listening to us, Elle. And you just called all of us bullies. We are NOT BULLLYING we are debating this issue with you. Flaming....Karlyn stated she is not going to change her goodreads review but removed her Amazon review because you don't believe reviewers should be able to post reviews unless they use their real names. Karlyn does not want to use her real name, therefore she has agreed that since you don't believe reviewers should use screen names she will remove her review. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Bullies my ass. I called you bullies? Where? When?
Ridiculous. No matter what I say, no matter how I say it, you are determined to string me up and let me hang. See? This is what the bullies have done to us. We cannot even have a dialogue about it without people lashing out and punishing, without threats, without all this garbage.
OldRocker ."I never said people on this thread were bullies, did I? But you want to say that so you can tar me up and dump those feathers over my head.
How many of you have screenshotted this thread? Hoping you will have the only record of it for later when it's deleted? Anyone?
I'm not deleting anything. I will let all my words stand. I believe we need to do something to stop the bullying being done in the online reading/writing community. I guess I'll hang for putting that out there.
Elle wrote: "Zahara wrote: "It's too bad you didn't do a bit of research to see if Anne Rice's story was true. I happened to be in the thread where she made all her accusations about gangster groups on Amazon (..."One article got you thinking and you signed your name. At that point you made a decision to support Anne Rice's campaign. She sent out press kits to dozens of media outlets to get people to sign without doing research. You fell for it.
Elle wrote: No matter what you do, it's never right. To an extent, that would always be true, since there are always going to be people on both sides of any issue.
I think you're very sincerely trying to address a difficult issue. I disagree with most of what you say, but I applaud you for sticking with the discussion, no matter how heated. I applaud you for letting people say what they think and not deleting them. That must be difficult, since most of us aren't agreeing with you.
I hope you will think about what people have said. I understand that you are trying to make a stand against bullying and I don't think any of us commenting disagree with that, but please do think about the reasons people have mentioned for why they disagree that stripping posters/reviewers on Amazon will help the situation.
Elle wrote: "Zahara wrote: "Nope. It doesn't matter who comes after you. The implication of your post is that you are attacking readers and siding with authors.No matter how much you may think you are not tak..."
Have someone else read it and give you their opinion. If you like how it sounds, you like attacking readers/reviewers.
I'm confused...."
That petition only addressed part of the problem, the reviewers or people commenting on reviews. It does not address the authors who ban together and attack reviewers (authors running in packs!) But since this petition is aimed at Amazon, it doesn't make sense that it would address that other group, since Amazon has no control over them.