Knot of Shadows spoiler discussion space
As per my habit, this post is for folks who have already read the story to discuss it freely with each other down in the comments section, insulated from the risk of spoiling readers who've not yet had a chance at it.
Have fun!
L.
(And, yes, sigh, errata reportage, but try not to let it overrun the thread.)
Have fun!
L.
(And, yes, sigh, errata reportage, but try not to let it overrun the thread.)
I love the way Alixtra is developing. Serious but secure enough to use a touch of sarcasm. Growing with and bonding with her demon. I like the way Pen treats her as a colleague and not just a student/apprentice.I hope that the bunny died because Agno needed a friend to take with him
I wonder if Vissa knew that Theraneas was the one who had framed her son or if she just asked the god to take whoever it was. Also sundering seems severe for what he did in spite of the results. He could be said to have had an obsessive compulsive disorder and just wanted to make sure he could keep stealing. He might have forseen the disaster but maybe not?
As always beautifully, precisely, written. A little darker than recent work and little redemption to be had. It did however give us more insight into the whole process of death magic/miracles. It seems that perhaps Cazaril's crow did not need to be sacrificed after all.
Is this set 1/2 year after Assassins or 1 1/2 years? I'm trying to work out a timeline in my head, and either one is possible, depending on how far along Nikys was in her pregnancy with Wyn at the time of that tale.Though looking at how young Wyn is (turning his head), I guess it's 1/2 year after, right?
Really intense, really dark toward the end, and absolutely engrossing. Pen and Des have come such a long way, in a relatively short amount of time. I really like the further exploration of death magic, how it works, and the frame of mind necessary for it to happen. Vissa did not know who framed her son, but she knew absolutely that someone had, and that was all she needed. We have a blessing equivalent in my faith: "Bless you - may you receive everything you deserve." I confess I am more curious about Theraneas, and how he came to be so obsessed. Great reading - thank you!!
Talli wrote: "I wonder if Vissa knew that Theraneas was the one who had framed her son or if she just asked the god to take whoever it was."Penric sums it up in the story: “Neither you nor she nor anyone else knew who’d laid that anonymous lie. So she turned to the One Who must.”
Karenhunt wrote: "Is this set 1/2 year after Assassins or 1 1/2 years?"Rina is described as "on the high side of two" (two and a half?) in Assassins, and "three" in Knot, so I suppose there's about half a year between them.
Jonathan wrote: "Karenhunt wrote: "Is this set 1/2 year after Assassins or 1 1/2 years?"Rina is described as "on the high side of two" (two and a half?) in Assassins, and "three" in Knot, so I'd say there's about..."
I think I remember the words "nine months" somewhere? Not sure though.
Tracy wrote: "Really intense, really dark toward the end, and absolutely engrossing. Pen and Des have come such a long way, in a relatively short amount of time. I really like the further exploration of death ma..."Pen and Des have been paired together around 15 years by now, I think? And I must confess that I'm rather curious about Theraneas as well.
Alex wrote: "Pen and Des have been paired together around 15 years by now, I think?"It depends whether you're counting in their years or ours. "Penric's Demon" was published in 2015, six years ago.
Alex wrote: "I think I remember the words "nine months" somewhere? Not sure though."I don't find "nine months". I find eight: "Arra, as a new chaos elemental, had formerly possessed or been possessed of a wild weasel, but the past eight months of imprinting by her rider was humanizing her rapidly."
That may mean somewhat less than eight months after the end of Assassins, if it's dated from when Alixtra received her demon.
Pen wasn’t sure if that was to his address or Ziah’s,Should that be
Pen wasn’t sure if that was his to address or Ziah’s,??
Herb wrote: "Pen wasn’t sure if that was to his address or Ziah’s,Should that be
Pen wasn’t sure if that was his to address or Ziah’s,??"
No, "to his address" in that context means "directed to him" -- I remember that phraseology from reading Georgette Heyer!
Talli wrote: "I love the way Alixtra is developing. Serious but secure enough to use a touch of sarcasm. Growing with and bonding with her demon. I like the way Pen treats her as a colleague and not just a student."I agree. However, I observe that Penric is still a young man and she's a young woman. They're closely associated with each other and becoming increasingly friendly. But I get no hint so far that they actually regard each other as man and woman.
In Masquerade, I had the impression that Penric and Chio did regard each other as man and woman, even though the age gap was greater, and sorcerer and saint wouldn't be compatible.
The only change since then is that Penric is now married, which does make a difference; but marriage doesn't entirely turn off the male response to other women. I expect that he would have made some casual evaluation of Alixtra, on the lines of "Yes, she's attractive, but forget about it", or "No, she's not my type anyway."
I suppose an advantage of writing in the third person is that the author can share the hero's private thoughts with the readers only when she feels like it.
Looks like a missing word in the first sentence: It was the season of cold rains and ship-capsizing winds, when the port and city of Vilnoc drew in upon itself, and [the] duke of Orbas decamped to his inland winter capital.
This is very much a "Winter's tale", isn't it? And also appropriate for the Halloween/All Saints Day/All Souls Day season just coming up.Coincidentally, I've also been doing a reread of Curse of Chalion, and just got to the part where Umegat is explaining to Cazaril why bodies of those slain by death magic need to be cremated promptly, before some sundered ghost can get into them. I suppose it was only a matter of time before Her Ladyship got around to using that!
As I go through my second read the discussion of time span makes me wonder how Kittio went from 5 to 7 in 8 months...
Jonathan wrote: "Talli wrote: "I love the way Alixtra is developing. Serious but secure enough to use a touch of sarcasm. Growing with and bonding with her demon. I like the way Pen treats her as a colleague and no..."Well, this is the second story with her in the picture, after all. Did you detect the same lack in The Assassin of Thessalon?
# # # Knot of Shadows SQUEEEEEE 👍🎶🎆❗️❗️
I loved Alixtra and Arra in this story! ( see notes )
# # # Learned Demon
The Bastard might NOT be erasing good demons
Corrupt demons are unmade in the Bastard's Hell
But demons fresh from the Bastard's Hell are weak. They must destroy the physical body to release the soul
Separating the soul, while leaving the body intact enough for a ghost to possess it, seems highly skilled
Perhaps good demons that are assumed lost, are actually taken up by the Bastard like a human soul, or taken to the Bastard's Heaven, to await use as a Death Demon
Maybe it is not a Death Demon but a Learned Demon that performs Death magic
# # # Temple sorceress
Perhaps Vissa, temporarily, became a Temple sorceress
Leaving her body, bonding with a Learned Demon, traveling through the Shaman realm to Therneas, removing Therneas from his body, then Vissa ( and the Learned Demon ) being taken up by the Bastard
The Learned Demon would almost be a human version of a Great beast
And we know the gods take up Great beasts ( see notes )
# # # God sundered
No matter how long Therneas lives, their soul is most likely lost since they are currently god sundered
The gods never want to god sunder a soul, it is a last resort when a soul has managed to seriously anger ALL five gods ( Example Methani, see notes )
# # # Death Magic Formula
If
1x Soul will be self sundered from despair ( Example Vissa Soudei )
and
that Soul ( Vissa ) can be saved by PREMATURELY god sundering 1x Soul that is currently god sundered ( Example Master Therneas )
Then
The Bastard will save
that Soul ( Vissa ) and lose the other Soul ( Therneas ) using a Death Demon
# # # Saving One
Not doing so risks losing BOTH Souls ( Vissa AND Therneas )
If Therneas dies before a successful Death magic, Therneas is lost and very likely Vissa is lost as well
If Vissa dies before a successful Death magic, Vissa is lost and it is very likely Therneas will remain god sundered
# # # All five gods
Even though The Bastard is saving Vissa, the other four gods must sign off on prematurely god sundering Therneas for Death magic to work
# # # Second Sight
Even those with knowledge of Death magic, cannot see proof of it without second sight to reveal the possession of both dead bodies
# # # Secret
Only Pen & Des will know this proof of the gods' love for all souls
Highly publicizing how Death magic works will only cause problems
# # # Crying
For some reasons, while explaining the implications of Death magic to my spouse, I could not stop crying
It is fiction, but the idea of a universe where the gods so love every soul is hugely moving
Especially during the huge social upheavals the real world is currently going through
### Knot of Sorrows
From a marketing point of view, I feel
Knot of Shadows is a superior title
But after all the tears I have shed for this story, and while discussing it, the title Knot of Sorrows would have been an acceptable alternative title in my experience
I even feel bad for the white mouse
# # # Notes
# # # Alixtra
One of MANY favorites
“Pen refrained from rolling his eyes. “Do you have time to listen to an hour’s lecture on the way demonic second sight works?”
Alixtra, leaning her elbow on the counter, put in helpfully, “There will be theology.”
“… Not really.””
— Knot of Shadows (Penric & Desdemona) by Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
# # # Arra
““I shall,” Des promised aloud. “You take care of your rider, too, Arra.”
An uncertain expression; she worked her mouth, and then—yes, that was Arra peeking through—managed a reasonably well-articulated, “Yes, ma’am!” And then looked proud of herself.”
— Knot of Shadows (Penric & Desdemona) by Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
# # # God sundered Methani
“any god Methani has left unoffended by this, I can’t think which.”
“The Bastard, obviously, for misuse of His gift of demons,” said Pen. “How do you figure the others?”
She counted them off on the correct fingers, folding each one in as she progressed. “The Mother of Summer, for this hideous abuse of a mother’s love. The Son of Autumn, for helpless Kittio. The Father of Winter, for the perversion of justice in every way. The Daughter of Spring, for Alixtra herself, because one does not stop being a daughter after one becomes a mother. The goddess still cares for us even when we move from Her house, the way Her Lady-school teachers care about their old pupils grown up, and hope for their well-being.” She turned her remaining thumb down. “And the Bastard as you say.”
“Whew. That’s a fair complete list, all right,” allowed Iroki, sounding much struck.”
— The Assassins of Thasalon (Penric & Desdemona) by Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
# # # Great Beast
“stretched-out boar spirit was, he saw now through its ferocity, quite frightened enough. This time, he coaxed it out softly, gently. He had hated it for what it had done to Tollin, and through Tollin to himself, but it was one of the Son’s creatures with the rest. He handed it off to the waiting god, and bowed his head in respect, and spread his fingers wide over his heart in His sign”
Excerpt From
Penric and the Shaman
Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
This material may be protected by copyright.
FIN
# # # Death's DoorGordon wrote: "
death magic/miracles. It seems that perhaps Cazaril's crow did not need to be sacrificed after all
"
The mouse/ crow is taken up by the Bastard
This appears to opens a door the Bastard can reach through
Similar to a human death allows the Bastard to reclaim the demon a sorcerer misuses to kill
Edit
Found it
“death of the mouse opened a thread of a channel, enough for the god to grasp and spin up her desire. The candle… was for light, I suppose. And for honor.””
— Knot of Shadows (Penric & Desdemona) by Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
FIN
Bj wrote: "# # # Death's DoorGordon wrote: "
death magic/miracles. It seems that perhaps Cazaril's crow did not need to be sacrificed after all
"
The mouse/ crow is taken up by the Bastard
This appears t..."
But Cazaril also did a rat. So the crow was extra, it would seem.
Talli wrote: "As I go through my second read the discussion of time span makes me wonder how Kittio went from 5 to 7 in 8 months..."Yes, that seems to be an anomaly. Well spotted.
Alex wrote: "Well, this is the second story with her in the picture, after all. Did you detect the same lack in The Assassin of Thessalon?"Yes. But Alixtra and Penric first met as assassin and enemy sorcerer. By the time of this second story, they are colleagues and friends who have been seeing quite a lot of each other for months. Their treatment of each other remains absolutely correct, just what it should be in the circumstances. That's not at all impossible, but such perfect correctness seems to me somewhat abnormal among humans.
Admittedly, these two are not normal humans: their demons have a natural tendency to avoid each other, although they seem to be gradually learning to overcome that.
Karenhunt wrote: "But Cazaril also did a rat. So the crow was extra, it would seem."If you have an urgent need to beg a god to do something very important for you, I suppose you want to do as much as you can to attract the god's attention. In that situation, you're not really looking for the minimum you can get away with. Hence, even Vissa made the effort to offer the best mouse she could get, rather than any old mouse. Bear in mind that most people who attempt death magic are said to fail.
Misspelled character name “Amberien”Based on the description, I conceived a hope that we’d revisit death miracles. So excited, thank you!
Forgive me for asking if it crosses a boundary, but do you instruct your copyeditor to refrain from making changes where meaning is not compromised? Professional curiosity.
Jonathan wrote: "Karenhunt wrote: "But Cazaril also did a rat. So the crow was extra, it would seem."If you have an urgent need to beg a god to do something very important for you, I suppose you want to do as muc..."
A vaid point!
Having now read the story, might I suggest the title "Death of a Mouse"? Such a small thing. Too late now I suppose, except maybe for Subterranean, or maybe the Baen edition. Or maybe not.With regard to the thought of hanky-panky with Alixtra, don't forget that Penric has ten females and Desdemona watching over him, and Des at least likes Nikys.
Enjoy!
Frank.
Frank wrote: "With regard to the thought of hanky-panky with Alixtra, don't forget that Penric has ten females and Desdemona watching over him, and Des at least likes Nikys."The idea of Penric and Alixtra having sexual relations with each other is almost inconceivable. Their demons probably wouldn't tolerate it, Penric wouldn't dare to imperil his happy family life, and it might also be regarded as improper or unprofessional by his other colleagues. He wouldn't seriously consider it.
However, when he met Chio, he noted details of her appearance and behaviour in a way that suggested he was responding to her as a woman. He had no intention of going any further with her, and wouldn't have been able to because she was a saint, but he responded to her anyway. He doesn't seem to have responded to Alixtra in the same way, which puzzles me a little. Maybe she really isn't his type; but coming to that conclusion is also a response of sorts.
Yes, "Death of a Mouse" seems a possible candidate title for this story. Too late now, though, I think.
Alixtra, leaning her elbow on the counter, put in helpfully, “There will be theology.”This line made me laugh so hard!
Karenhunt wrote: "Is this set 1/2 year after Assassins or 1 1/2 years? I'm trying to work out a timeline in my head, and either one is possible, depending on how far along Nikys was in her pregnancy with Wyn at the ..."It says 8 months at one point
Lois,Possible typo. Location 136. "They walked back out to the courtyard, Pylos tailing." Should that be "trailing". But two sentences later you referred to "physician trailing" and you might not want to use "trail" twice so close together. Author' choice, of course, but the author is always right. Well, ... almost always.
Enjoy!
Frank.
re: Penric not "checking out" Alixtra like he did Chio: of course he doesn't, he's married now!Found one extraneous "that": "One tiny white candle, no larger than that those set to light a festive cake."
It's quite a ghost story. (Very apt timing.) I'm a little sorry that we never learn who the ghost (re-)animating Therneas's corpse was, but it makes sense that we don't, because how could Penric and company ever figure it out? (I suppose presumably the hospital and temples keep track of the results of funeral rites, so I suppose they could assemble a list of candidates, but there wouldn't be much point, as there would be nothing to choose one ghost over another, really.)
Néna wrote: "Misspelled character name “Amberien”Based on the description, I conceived a hope that we’d revisit death miracles. So excited, thank you!
Forgive me for asking if it crosses a boundary, but do y..."
I don't have a copy editor for these self-published works. It's just me and whatever friends I can rope in to doing test-reads and comments.
For publisher-published works, copy-edit changes are suggested, not made. All are run past me and I decide if they're good or not. This is standard in professional editing, in my experience.
Ta, L.
Frank wrote: "Lois,Possible typo. Location 136. "They walked back out to the courtyard, Pylos tailing." Should that be "trailing". But two sentences later you referred to "physician trailing" and you might not ..."
"tailing" is intended, here.
Ta, L.
Also re: a couple of comments, Pen may have "checked out" Chio when he first saw her, but that was a first meeting. Pen has known Alixtra long enough by now, he doesn't need to do so again. (And he checked her out pretty thoroughly the first time, if not romantically. Both having more pressing things on their minds at the time.)Also, for the mathematically puzzled, Kittio's age was supposed to be six. It's on my growing list of things for the, sigh, corrections pass.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "Pen has known Alixtra long enough by now, he doesn't need to do so again. (And he checked her out pretty thoroughly the first time, if not romantically. Both having more pressing things on their minds at the time.)"Thanks for the reply. Yes, in Assassins I thought they would both have had more pressing things on their minds. Later on, at leisure, they might look at each other afresh, but I realize now that this would probably happen in the gap of months between Assassins and Knot. So, by the time of Knot, they're both well adjusted to the situation, and not giving much thought to it any more. Fair enough.
Juli wrote: "re: Penric not "checking out" Alixtra like he did Chio: of course he doesn't, he's married now!"I suppose you're joking. As far as I know, marriage rarely if ever makes men blind to other women. A man completely in love with his wife (as Penric is) may not take any serious interest in other women, but he'll probably still notice them to some extent. I think married women still notice other men, too. (Note: I'm approaching my 24th wedding anniversary.)
Not reading the spoilers since i'm not finished yet, but noticed there's again some very cheerful discussion forming on principle questions :D. Such fun!
The young widow Alixtra will probably find herself a new husband sooner or later. Whether that will happen in the course of a story, or quietly offstage, will presumably depend on the unpredictable course of future inspiration.Or, who knows, her first husband (missing, presumed dead) may reappear with a tale of his own to tell.
Complications ensue if the first husband turns up after she's married the second one; but that might be too much of a distraction from Penric's adventures.
Where Penric tells Learned Siouan, “Two souls taken directly by the god’s hand, two already-sundered ghosts trapped in the world and past any ability to assent,” only one ghost has actually been observed by then, inhabiting Therneas. It’s not clear that any other ghost is presumed to have inhabited the petitioner’s body—it’s just a worry at that point.
You made me cry again in more than one place! I think you’ve done so more than any other author. You have the knack of moving our hearts.
Néna wrote: "Where Penric tells Learned Siouan, “Two souls taken directly by the god’s hand, two already-sundered ghosts trapped in the world and past any ability to assent,” only one ghost has actually been ob..."Strayed over from the Father's Order, did you...? :-)
It may only be a strong hypothesis at this point, but it's the worry in their wheelhouse to deal with if it proves the case.
Ta, L.
I've also thought that Alixtra's husband could show up. After all, we know it could happen from Pete's Dragon!
Talli wrote: "I wonder if Vissa knew that Theraneas was the one who had framed her son or if she just asked the god to take whoever it was. Also sundering seems severe for what he did in spite of the results. He..."I think one needs to know who one believes committed the crime. If one is wrong, the god won't let the process complete. I think Theraneas deserved what he got -- just my opinion.
Jonathan wrote: "Talli wrote: "I wonder if Vissa knew that Theraneas was the one who had framed her son or if she just asked the god to take whoever it was."Penric sums it up in the story: “Neither you nor she no..."
Oops, I must be wrong -- my response to Talli doesn't hold water. On the other hand, I prefer to believe that Vissa suspected Theraneas -- his guilt was so obvious to the reader.
Elizabeth wrote: "I prefer to believe that Vissa suspected Theraneas -- his guilt was so obvious to the reader."Vissa is dead by the time we meet her in the story, but her brother didn't think she suspected anyone in particular. Penric asked, “So you and your sister never had any clues at all about who might have laid those anonymous charges against your nephew?”
And he replied, “No. Or I would have strangled the rotten fishbreath toad myself.”
I think Vissa and Otzos had no contact with the Customs house people, and knew nothing about them. We, as readers of the story, know more than they did.
Jonathan, I’m forcing a reading on the story that the story doesn’t support. I get that. I do so because if anyone could sacrifice herself or himself so that a god would annihilate the destroyer of a loved one, I think there would be more cases of death magic. But that’s just me and what I think now. I’ll keep mulling it over during rereads.
Elizabeth wrote: "if anyone could sacrifice herself or himself so that a god would annihilate the destroyer of a loved one, I think there would be more cases of death magic."I don't think that's the only factor, though. It seems to me that the white god has to agree that the target of the death magic deserves it--and that's the sort of thing the gods do know--and this story also suggests that the supplicant has to be in the right frame of mind ... despair, all other avenues of redress having been blocked off / proved fruitless.
Therneas almost seems as if he was destined for sundering anyway, no matter how his death happened, with a soul so eaten up by avarice.
Good points, Margaret, and I agree that Therneas was an evil whi would probably never get caught by human laws. Vissa despaired -- but first her son despaired and committed suicide. There must have been something about Vissa's decision to try death magic that is a different kind of despair. Pen speculated that Vissa had heard rumors about death magic and created her own ritual -- that part is similar to Cazaril's experience. But my imagination still needs the identification of the murderer or at least some other catalyst besides his birthday. That's all. I'm saying you guys are right.
Location 536/30% maybe an extra quote mark. I'm never quite sure