Knot of Shadows spoiler discussion space
As per my habit, this post is for folks who have already read the story to discuss it freely with each other down in the comments section, insulated from the risk of spoiling readers who've not yet had a chance at it.
Have fun!
L.
(And, yes, sigh, errata reportage, but try not to let it overrun the thread.)
Have fun!
L.
(And, yes, sigh, errata reportage, but try not to let it overrun the thread.)
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Brzk
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Oct 29, 2021 11:14PM
recently came across an amuzing article about different sorts of inner voices, there are certainly parallels to be made until a degree. can't port the link in a comment, but you can easily find it: the guardian, he-last-great-mystery-of-the-mind-meet-the-people-who-have-unusual-or-non-existent-inner-voices
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Elizabeth wrote: "I missed that remark from Des. Amusing!"It was at the end of "Penric's Mission". Her main alternative at the time would have been Adelis.
Yes, Des said something along the lines of how there would have been no other choice, as she was well imprinted by Pen, by then.
A place where the text is confusing (possible earlier typo?): right at the end "Not that it couldn't be both. Parsimony, after all." The meaning of "both" is unclear. The most relevant would be "justice" and "grace", but they are mentioned several sentences before. The immediately preceding sentences are "But was it true? Or... entirely true?" To make these seem like a choice, maybe change to "Or... not entirely true?"I did find the whole story rather sad-making, though deeply moving. I do prefer the upbeat feeling like "Raspay", "Limnos", "Thasalon", "Lodi". But any new Penric makes my week, so keep writing whatever you feel you can!
I’m trying to figure out why I don’t feel sad in the way that several readers (here and on Jenny Crusie’s blog) have felt.I think Bujold creates scenes in which the dead are acknowledged. Is it the end of Barrayar where a mother is collecting pieces of her daughter who’d been a casualty of a space battle? Here in Knots the opportunities are made to give peace to the dead — the child reaching for salvation by reaching towards the bunny deeply moves me. It’s the positive side of a necessary human experience. Traditional rituals might not work — Ivan’s mom needs to pass on to Ivan the annual honoring of his father’s death. And Ingrey meets the ice bear when people try to force the gods at a funeral. I feel that both Vrissa and Agno are justified (wrong word?) in having their deaths completed and made public.
Isn't Aftermaths at the end of Shards?I think the death of a 4 yo would always make me sad but relieved that he's not sundered
Yes. My big take away from this story is that death magic shakes the whole world of the five gods, displacing other souls besides the performer of death magic and its victim. Like, I should have learned this from the entire set of stories.Somehow, Knot of Shadows also makes me more aware of all the suffering people in our world who pain is dismissed as inevitable. Strange effect of microcosm/macrocosm, I guess.
Women rescue back### Women rescue back
One of the reasons I love Lois McMaster Bujold and John Scalzi is this: the women rescue the men as often as the men rescue the women.
Examples: Bujold's Penric and Desdemona, Sharing Knife, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen, etc.; Scalzi's Collapsing Empire, Locked In, Agent to the Stars, etc.
### Rescue romance
Bujold has already successfully executed both the rescue romance, and the harem romance. Two tropes currently hot in the Light Novel and Anime marketplace ( see notes )
Bujold has written a very good rescue romance ( The Sharing Knife, Cordelia's Honor )
Bujold has written a very good harem romance ( Penric/ Desdemona/ Nikys, Oliver Jole/ Spoiler/ Spoiler )
The Assassins of Thasalon is not a rescue romance, and will not lead to a rescue romance in Knot of Shadows, or later Pen and Des stories
Word of God has already jossed this trope (see blog about Knot of Shadows )
### Notes
### Anime
I am watching at lot of anime recently
Our budget is incredibly tight due to the global pandemic
Streaming services are a buffet business model
### Low cost for high level effects
Anime has a low cost for producing high level special effects ( space ships, dragons, other planets, other worlds, etc. )
### Found Family
I like anime with found family
But the most popular found family trope is the harem/ rescue romance
### Harem/ Rescue Romance
For the harem/ rescue romance
Main character is unique, and special, so saves someone
That someone had no friends so they become friends with the main character
If sexual orientation allows, is attracted to the main character since ONLY friend of the appropriate gender
Circumstances prevent saved characters from meeting good people of the appropriate gender
Repeat multiple times
### Finding partners
This is often truth in television.
After being saved by their one, and only, friend, people should try and create situations where they can meet other good people of the appropriate gender
One real world solution to find an activity ( with or without the rescue friend ) that you enjoy, that is 50% male, and 50% female
I like Renaissance Fairs, SCA, Cosplay, Board games, etc.
Activities that comprise traditional male skills ( construction and entertainment design ) with traditional female skills ( clothing and hospitality )
Activities mostly without gender gate keeping, or gender stigma
### Fan service
If author is trying to appeal to male audience, most of the saved characters will be female forming a harem
Or forming a reverse harem, with a female main character, and mostly male rescues
### Power of Lust
Some series will even use the power of lust to make the main character special
Example
High School DxD
The main character becomes immortal, wealthy, all powerful and marries them all.
Good for fans who want a plausible fantasy world harem
or
Is It Wrong to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon? (Danjon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darō ka?), otherwise known as DanMachi
DanMachi main character cannot resolve his romantic situation or he loses his most powerful special ability.
Good for fans who like the part leading up to a relationship, but not the relationship part
### Anti Harem
Authors can play with harem tropes
Example
The Quintessential Quintuplets (original Japanese title: Go-Toubun no Hanayome, literally meaning "A Bride in Five Equal Parts") is a manga series by Haruba Negi
Quints' foreshadowing, and writing, are so good if you ignore the multiple wedding dresses, and the group honeymoon. I am watching it at least twice and hope to buy all the manga. The author tried to come up with a situation ( female quints against an unwanted male rescuer ) that could lead to a harem/ rescue romance but eventually leads to lessons about family, first loves, being selfish ( still ranting about the dresses and the honeymoon ) and helping others.
Good for fans who like piecing together the ending and females helping females.
or
Ore wo Suki Nano wa Omae Dake Ka Yo— translating to “Are You the Only One Who Loves Me?” and shortened to Oresuki
Oresuki starts off with an unlikeable cast all attempting to live life by explicitly following harem/ rescue romance tropes. The found family eventually grows and learns from each other.
Good for fans of plot twists.
### Genderless
Genderless can help avoid the harem/ rescue romance while keeping the rescue and found family
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime (Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken)
Reincarnated Slime has a genderless main character that ultimately gains the ability to become any gender. But decides to remain genderless to avoid the pitfalls of harem/ rescue romance.
Good for fans who like world uplift
or
Lock In by John Scalzi, has the found family ( conveniently helps with the mysteries ) of a gender neutral, possibly demi sexual main character.
Good for fans who like alternative universe stories
### All Female
Other authors avoid the problem with an all female cast
Didn't I Say to Make My Abilities Average in the Next Life?
Abilities Average setting/ world is biased against women. Main protagonist empowers found family but especially women.
Good for fans who like world uplift
### AU Alixtra
Alixtra will have no trouble meeting good people of both genders (see harem/ rescue romance above), so she is unlikely to crush Penric in fanfic
When writing fanfic you would have to address the following issues
When does Alixtra have time to be with Penric in a platonic way?
Even in Knot of Shadows, the plot requires Penric to choose Alixtra after trying to find a better trained temple sorcerer
How is the fanfic writer isolating Alixtra from other potential crushes?
Vilnoc is the summer capital of a country
The Bastard's chapter house has a good gender balance
Alixtra's apprenticeship to her god brings her into contact with a good gender balance
FIN
Argh. Forgot one of my favorite rescue romance, Bujold's Captain Vorpatril's Alliance
Experimental theology, who else would think to invent it?
Blessed Ista, perhaps.
Argh left someone out of the Penric harem:poor Egin ( Mira is included in Desdemona )
Penric/ Desdemona/ Egin/ Nikys
Inspired to re-read Curse and Paladin - many thoughts, but one is that we need to remember (as Lois does) that the Bastard is, among other things, the god of chaos. While Penric tries to find rules and patterns, and can make them work for him and Des, I find it no surprise that there are some differences in the way demons, death magic and other ways in which the 5th god interacts with the world through his saints and sorcerers at different times and places. More and more impressed by the entire World of the Five Gods as an entire creation.
And Knot is another fruitful addition to the collection.
Lovely sad story. Held my kiddos tighter afterwards. “The gods don’t give us our children. We give our children to the gods.” Yes. *sniff*
Thank you.
That line reminds me of something I heard a minister say once: "God doesn't take our loved ones. God receives our loved ones."
Margaret wrote: "That line reminds me of something I heard a minister say once: "God doesn't take our loved ones. God receives our loved ones.""Oh, I like that.
This story made me kind of sad that the Son would be the last of the 5 gods to want me. He seems so caring.
Errata: location 32 "and duke of Orbas decamped...." Should be "and the Duke of Orbas decamped..."Location 79: unclear. Does "where the slope began to rise.." Refer to Penric's street or the Mother's chapterhouse?
Location 221 "you need to not to". Should be " you need to not."
Location 490 unclear: ....." ...from their rather underlit workspace, who seemed happy..."
Location 1601 unclear. "....until you have Therneas' body safely locked up.....which apart from a bit of thrashing.....should be non-existent."
Hope this makes sense.
I couldn't decide on the "you need to not to" and thought maybe it was intentional.
Talli wrote: "I couldn't decide on the "you need to not to" and thought maybe it was intentional."It is intentional, for emphasis.
L.
The description of how carefully, even tenderly, Penric handled, wrapped and carried the child's body rang very true. It made me think of how babies who have died, in most hospitals, don't go to the mortuary in a casket: the staff cradle them in a Moses basket.
Lois wrote: "extra yourLocation 536/30% maybe an extra quote mark. I'm never quite sure"
Just for your (and others') future refe..."
Professional copyeditor here--in dialogue that continues for more than one paragraph, the close quotes are omitted at the end of a paragraph to indicate that the speech is continuing. The quotes on the next paragraph confirm that this is still speech. If there were quotes in both spots, I would assume that a different person was speaking in the new paragraph. Hopefully the writer would make that clear.
It may be one of those editorial conventions arrived at by committee. I'm so accustomed to it that to me it seems sensible.
Karen wrote: "Professional copyeditor here--in dialogue that continues for more than one paragraph, the close quotes are omitted at the end of a paragraph to indicate that the speech is continuing. The quotes on the next paragraph confirm that this is still speech."All programmers learn that any opening quotation mark has to be matched by a closing quotation mark, otherwise you get a syntax error, and your program won't even compile, let alone run. I'm an ex-programmer who's now a professional writer—but not a writer of fiction, so I don't normally run into this problem. I doubt that I could bear to deal with speech paragraphs in the committee-approved way, it would scream Syntax Error at me.
Yes, I know that programming-language syntax isn't really relevant here; however, I do feel that there's a certain logic to matching up your quotation marks.
Jonathan wrote: "Karen wrote: "Professional copyeditor here--in dialogue that continues for more than one paragraph, the close quotes are omitted at the end of a paragraph to indicate that the speech is continuing...."Heh. You want logic from the English language...?
Jonathan is correct for English prose punctuation convention.
Keeping multiple dialogue speakers straight is an art. It's maddening to have to stop reading and count up the exchanges to try to figure out who is saying what. I try not to force my readers to do that. A close-quote would signal (too subtly, sometimes, needing a bit of stage business or a speech tag to reinforce) that the next speaker is a different person. The dialogue, so to speak, would not compile.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "Heh. You want logic from the English language...?"Thanks, Lois. I do want logic from any language; but my disappointments are legion.
A computer would be satisfied with an opening quotation mark at the beginning of the monologue, and a closing quotation mark at the end of it, regardless of the number of paragraphs. But, as Karen implied, a human reader might lose track (silly humans) and wonder whether this is still speech or not.
It would be helpful if the author could insert a little business in between paragraphs. "She glanced over at Michael." I suppose this doesn't always feel right. However, when we get a series of paragraphs of multi-person conversation with no other text, I sometimes get confused about who is speaking.
The conventions used in theatre scripts are useful: it's always clear (a) what is speech and what is not, and (b) who is speaking. But it's not traditional to write a novel this way.
Ah. Like Jonathan I spent most of my life programming computers. No wonder a loose quote mark throws me off!
Talli wrote: "Ah. Like Jonathan I spent most of my life programming computers. No wonder a loose quote mark throws me off!"I was actually paid to program only from 1975 to 1986, but I've been doing it now and then all my adult life.
Looking through "Knot of Shadows" again, I see that it's quite rare for a single speech to be divided into paragraphs, and the mismatched quotes there don't (subjectively) look as bad as I'd expect. I find it easier to read them than I would to write them—indeed, I must have been reading them here and there all my life without really noticing.
It also occurs to me that people don't speak in paragraphs, and I don't see a need to divide one person's uninterrupted speech into paragraphs on the page. If the speaker makes a definite pause, that can be noted: "He paused for a moment."
Looking around on the Web, I see that there was a time when quotation marks used to appear at the beginning of every line of speech (not just at the beginning of every paragraph).
These reflections were evoked by re-reading "The Curse of Chalion," which I revisited after reading "Knot of Shadows" with its Death Magic plot. Methinks the Chalionese sound rather more blasé about Death Magic than the learned divines of Penric's time and place, 200-odd years earlier and however-many-hundreds of kilometers distant. I suppose in "Chalion" LMB wanted to make Death Magic seem not too much of a burden on readers' willing suspension of disbelief, as something more-or-less taken for granted. But now in "Knot," she presents Death Magic as something rare, which is less common knowlege--and which she trusts us to accept without having every character in sight also do so. Also, she's spent much time getting herself and us readers acquainted with the WOFG since her first exploration of it. Will the consistency-fanatic Gnurrs "come from the voodvork out" on this? I hope not. Oh, yes, in my reading, Penric is profoundly moved in the final graf when he realizes the White God's *other* motive in facilitating Death Magic: grace for its tormented invoker.
Elizabeth wrote: "Jonathan, I’m forcing a reading on the story that the story doesn’t support. I get that. I do so because if anyone could sacrifice herself or himself so that a god would annihilate the destroyer of..."Looking over the story and comments (including my own), I've concluded the Bastard allows Death Magic to work most always only when 1) The petitioner is at the end of his/her tether in dispair and his/her blessed release from it is deserved--in the White God's view; and 2) The other four Gods agree to the target's death; they're also utterly fed up with the target.
Which may be one reason why Death Magic against the Golden General will have unforseen repercussions in the "Curse of Chalion/Palidan of Souls" backstory--and in Cazaril's own attemp at Death Magic. Is Cazaril in utter dispair? Not quiet yet at that point, so he lives. I do not mean to claim that Lois foresaw the final revelation of "Knot" back when she wrote "Chalion;" my reading just happens to appear that way.
To expand a bit on my response to Elizabeth's Message 48: In my reading, when Caz attempts Death Magic, he does so more from a sense of duty to his Roya than from a there's-no-possible-earthy-recourse-end-of-my-rope-depths-of-dispair that could sunder him from whichever of the Five Gods. Unlike Vissa. That's one possible ex-post-facto explanation for why Caz doesn't wake up dead after practicing Death Magic, but instead gets saddled with the Death Demon and his antagonist's soul in the tumor in his guts. H'mm, d'you notice Lois carefully avoids using the word, "cancer?" Mustn't forget, the Daughter also intervenes with, or cooks up some deal with, the Bastard during Caz's ritual.
Richard wrote: "In my reading, when Caz attempts Death Magic, he does so more from a sense of duty to his Roya than from a there's-no-possible-earthy-recourse-end-of-my-rope-depths-of-dispair that could sunder him from whichever of the Five Gods."In that situation, I think it's Iselle who's at the end of her rope, and he takes her despair onto himself out of sympathy.
In Curse of Chalion, though, there's another major factor involved, which is basically all the gods doing what they can to get the curse broken. From that point of view, Caz's and Iselle's simultaneous opening of themselves to the gods (Caz through death magic, Iselle through prayer) is a golden opportunity! Removing waste-of-space Dondo (more or less) is a bonus.
Margaret & Johnathan, good points. Um, might I suggest after this interesting digression, Des and Penric's takes on Death Magic are still on the table. Think I've expressed myself sufficiently.
Margaret wrote: "My take on it is that it's your world, so you (Lois) can populate it any way you want. I've previously noted that the parts of the 5GU world we've seen so far definitely have New World birds (e.g. ..."Somewhere Lois acknowledges the continent of 5GU is in its world's southern hemisphere; the farther south one goes, the colder the climate. Although that continent seems to contain a hodgepodge of pre-gunpowder European countries, one could suppose it is congruent with South America, thus New World birds.
H'mm, if any of our world's folks want to honor the Five Gods in their proper seasons, they'll need to move to South America, Sub-Saharan Africa or Australia. Hows about we start a New Zealand 5G Colony, wow.
Richard wrote: "… one could suppose it is congruent with South America, thus New World birds. "Don't get carried away! I'm with Margaret on this, it's a fantasy set on another world, which can have birds of any kind, including perhaps kinds not found on this world at all.
I'd guess that the Father of Winter remains the Father of Winter at whatever time of year winter comes, so he can have his season in January in the northern hemisphere, and in July in the southern. But I'm just guessing…
Jonathan wrote: "Richard wrote: "… one could suppose it is congruent with South America, thus New World birds. "Don't get carried away! I'm with Margaret on this, it's a fantasy set on another world, which can ha..."
Good point again. The horsefly-born infection in "Physicians of Vilnoc" doesn't exist in our world, although it carries echoes of the Black Death. Not that LMB ever accepts fans' plot bunnies (with good reason!), but speaking of South American birds, wouldn't it be fun if an army of Four-God-Worshipers arrives from a far-away corner of the WOFG continent riding those prehistoric South American raptor birds, the Phorusrhacids?
Jonathan wrote: "Alex wrote: "I think I remember the words "nine months" somewhere? Not sure though."I don't find "nine months". I find eight: "Arra, as a new chaos elemental, had formerly possessed or been posse..."
May I suggest the eight months refers to the time Alixtra has spent imprinting her demon as a member of the Bastard's Order, under the instruction of Pen/Des and her Chaperhouse advisors? She certainly didn't get such guidance when compelled to accept her demon in the "Assassins" backstory!
Richard wrote: "May I suggest the eight months refers to the time Alixtra has spent imprinting her demon as a member of the Bastard's Order, under the instruction of Pen/Des and her Chaperhouse advisors?"That's approximately what I meant, although I think Alixtra's instruction, and the imprinting of her demon, started on the trip to Thasalon: so the eight months should start from the beginning of the trip, not from the end of it.
Jonathan wrote: "Richard wrote: "May I suggest the eight months refers to the time Alixtra has spent imprinting her demon as a member of the Bastard's Order..." / "That's approximately what I meant, although Alixtra's instruction ... started on the trip to Thasalon..."Good point. I read you as suggesting Knot--more specically, Penric's noticing the imprinting progress of Alixtra and Arra--takes place eight months after Pen and Des convince Alixtra and Arra to switch sides, or to come over to the Bright Side of the Force (in Star Wars speak.) I thought I implied Alixtra's instruction by her Chaperhouse advisors begins after she formally joins the White God's Order at the close of Assassins, but I see that failed to trasfer from my mind to the word processor screen.
