Knot of Shadows spoiler discussion space
As per my habit, this post is for folks who have already read the story to discuss it freely with each other down in the comments section, insulated from the risk of spoiling readers who've not yet had a chance at it.
Have fun!
L.
(And, yes, sigh, errata reportage, but try not to let it overrun the thread.)
Have fun!
L.
(And, yes, sigh, errata reportage, but try not to let it overrun the thread.)
Therneas had a seemingly seamless system. He didn't have weaknesses -- like gambling -- that could have exposed him. In fact, he was kind of weirdly straight (?wrong word) so that even Pen couldn't figure him out. He definitely had no one he was working for clandestinely. He didn't seek friendship any more than fame. Even the sailors who stripped him felt he deserved a nightgown and an offical (sailors') burial. I wonder what rewards Therneas sought beyond living as he did? What did death magic cheat him out of?
I really enjoyed this novella, although I did find it darker than many in the series. I am doing my slowish re-read, and just realized that Pen has joined Miles in doing "forensic plumbing", that is exploring drains and removing a corpse. I hope he or someone tightens the cover on that sewer access so no other small child or other ignorant of the dangers can enter and get lost.
More comments later, but very thought provoking story.
As to Pen finding Alixtra attractive....In the Assassins book he comments on her being a "well enough" looking woman. As they get to know each other, attraction is bound to grow, BUT.....I think Pen is totally is love with his wife and family, and has a moral backbone of steel. I don't think it's even occured to him to think of Alixtra as anything but a student of his, and you don't violate that relationship either!
Tricia wrote: "As to Pen finding Alixtra attractive....In the Assassins book he comments on her being a "well enough" looking woman. As they get to know each other, attraction is bound to grow, BUT..."I agree completely: the two of them are not going to have any adulterous affair, for various reasons. I just wondered about the "attraction is bound to grow" aspect. From the text so far, they're friendly, but seem to feel no attraction to each other whatsoever. In the case of Penric, that's almost plausible: he's focused on Nikys. But Alixtra's husband has been missing for years, and Penric is said to be an attractive man. Probably best for her peace of mind if she finds some other attractive man in the near future.
Jonathan wrote: "Tricia wrote: "As to Pen finding Alixtra attractive....In the Assassins book he comments on her being a "well enough" looking woman. As they get to know each other, attraction is bound to grow, BUT..."Alixtra is going to have the same problem as Pen, or any other sorcerer; any prospective spouse or lover she finds is going to have to take the whole inseparable package, woman and dangerous weasel-demon and fairly high status and demanding Temple career. And stepson. Not to mention the fraught past. Not impossible, but not likely to be easy, and she is at the moment pretty head-down in her demanding studies and emotional recovery.
The calmer, more confident future Learned Alixtra, well, who knows. It would have to be a pretty remarkable guy...
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "Alixtra is going to have the same problem as Pen, or any other sorcerer..."Indeed, and that's a great summary of her situation. Meanwhile, it would seem rather predictable to me if she developed a secret crush on Penric. But she'd try to hide it, and she may be good at doing that. (I'm on thin ice here, because I have no experience of being a woman.)
# # # SpoiledI have trouble reading some relatively new authors because Lois McMaster Bujold, and John Scalzi, are such incredible students of human nature, and even better writers, that they have spoiled me
Both write amazing 4 dimensional characters and incredible 4 dimensional plots / serials
### Fantastic and Mundane
The longer I live, the more I appreciate the functional, and the mundane ( see notes ) in both my stories and my life
Both Bujold, and Scalzi, mix the fantastic ( spaceships, telerobotics, demons, etc. ) with the mundane ( finding housing, raising children, locating a lost dog, etc. )
### Temple Sorcerer
A Temple Sorcerer is too dangerous to leave starving, naked, homeless and worried about their family
Alixtra has everything she needs
Alixtra does not have any relatives wanting to settle her into a nice marriage
A relationship with anyone, male or female, would likely be difficult living in the chapter house
# # # Proximity
The a very high number of awkward sexual situations that can be solved by shipping out one of the persons involved for a few years
When he can, Penric avoids visiting the chapter house while Alixtra spends most of her time there while training and raising Kittio
# # # House
Penric only bought a house because he loves Nikys
Niky insisted on a house ( see notes )
When Alixtra finds some one she wants to buy a house for, then I expect she will marry
Privacy may also become a concern at that point between inquisitive children, and pets
# # # Rescue syndrome
A common Light Novel trope is, you rescued me, I now romantically love you
Having lived long enough to have rescued people, and know friends who have been rescued, it can happen
But usually the rescuing is not the sole reason for the romantic feelings
As an added factor, Alixtra has been too busy playing catch-up at the chapter house
# # # Foreign Beauty
Having visited foreign countries, and known foreign visitors, I have had my share of unrequited feeling caused by exotic foreigners. Having them myself and being the target of them. Openly acknowledged and secretly shared with friends.
The most awkward involved the AV club, a prom, three best friends, a several visits abroad, two incredible people with the same first name, a cyclist, a linguist, a clerk, theater crew, a psychotic mother ( state institution ) a nurturing step mother, a parent working in mental health and several parents who wanted those involved to have sexual relations before marriage as long as it was safe, sane and consensual ( condoms may have been gifted and coed sleeping arrangements, in the family home, may have been involved )
Ah, young hormones
In my experience, both Pen, and Alixtra, are too hopelessly buried in their current relationships and employment to have the energy to contemplate another sexual relationship no matter how attractive the other person's accent, body, training, education or employment
# # # Exotic
Kittio might develop a preference for competent, tall, light skinned partners but unlikely given the climate ( light skinned being just as rare as albinos )
Too lazy to check the age difference between Kittio, Seuka and Lencia
# # # Notes
“Learned Sioann was the sort of Temple administrator young Penric had dismissed as unimportant in his early focus on all things sorcerous, but life, and life with Nikys, had taught him better. Functionary was a very just term, because this place would surely cease functioning without people like her. “
— Knot of Shadows (Penric & Desdemona) by Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
“So a house will do just fine, then.” Another maddening smile.
She swallowed. “Children…”
“Those, too.” He nodded. “They will go with the house. Like a cat.”
“What?”
“That was Pen, not me,” Des put in. “I don’t know what he’s thinking, either. Yes, you do.”
Excerpt From
The Prisoner of Limnos
Lois McMaster Bujold
[link removed]
This material may be protected by copyright.
FIN
Bj wrote: "# # # SpoiledI have trouble reading some relatively new authors because Lois McMaster Bujold, and John Scalzi, are such incredible students of human nature, and even better writers, that they hav..."
N.B., short quotes are normally considered fair use, and don't require copyright argle-bargle. Although the readers of same may appreciate attribution, should they want to follow it up. (And authors may like the advertising.)
Ta, L.
I find myself wondering about whether the victim of successful death magic/miracle is always sundered. Specifically, I actually have a hard time imagining the Golden General being sundered (or taken up by anyone but the Father) given the description of the Father's feelings for him. So I *suspect* Penric is over-assuming about the victim always being signed as sundered.
Thanks for another great story. I really enjoy spending time with these characters, and always come away from these adventures feeling more grounded and focused, with my eye back on the things that truly matter. It's like receiving a gift. Cheers.
Randy wrote: "I actually have a hard time imagining the Golden General being sundered (or taken up by anyone but the Father) given the description of the Father's feelings for him."That's an interesting point. You're sundered if no god will accept you; but the gods may disagree amongst themselves.
I wonder why the Golden General was so popular with the Father of Winter. He was in effect waging war against the Bastard, which explains why the Bastard was willing to allow death magic. Is the Father hostile to the Bastard?
I don't recall reading much, if anything, about how the gods get along with each other; probably because humans could only speculate about it.
Incidentally, I also wonder why the death magic was accepted on request by a king, but not accepted on earlier requests by lesser folk. In later stories in this world, the gods don't usually seem to care about human concepts of status, so I'd expect one request to be as good as another.
Someone else has already noted the missing "the" in the first sentence. The only other note I made on first reading is regarding "her peninsular coppery skin alloyed with lighter islander bronze" (page 20 according to my Kindle): in my lexicon, copper is a lighter color than bronze. If gold is a metallic version of yellow, then copper is a metallic orange, while bronze is a metallic brown. Of course, this is all roughly speaking, and I'm sure there are copper roofs out there that are darker than a freshly-polished bronze statue, but still, it was something that tripped my brain when reading that sentence.
Since my (eastern orthodox christian) theology is not strong, I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to convert to quintarianism and if this would perhaps bring some new god to life, as it has arguably happened before. Death seems a less daunting prospect with a proper burial ritual pointing towards a definite final destination, beyond any speculation or doubt. Anyhow, it appears if there is someone to mourn us, even one other living person, we've done well in life and have been accepted already.Therneas's life must have been brutal for him to enjoy these nine years of mock existence, his only human contact that a-few-times-a-week drink at a tavern. He has been offered choices, blame is still with him. Sundering evidently happens this side of things.
Martha wrote: "...in my lexicon, copper is a lighter color than bronze..."Copper and bronze are approximate descriptions of colours; the exact hue and lightness may vary. For whatever it's worth, Wikipedia suggests sRGB values of 205, 127, 50 for bronze and 184, 115, 51 for copper, so on that basis bronze is lighter. But I don't think there's any god-given definition of these colours.
As metals, copper is an element, but bronze is an alloy, consisting mostly of copper, but its other constituents may vary somewhat, presumably causing some variation in colour.
Jonathan wrote: "Randy wrote: "I actually have a hard time imagining the Golden General being sundered (or taken up by anyone but the Father) given the description of the Father's feelings for him."Randy and Jonathan offer interesting points. If I remember correctly, the Golden General was loved by the Father who went to the extreme of a gift (I can't remember if it was a drop of blood or a tear). Yet the General's military successes were his own; any material gains or losses were his own. The gods weren't fighting each other. (On the side, the Golden General arranged to have the demon in his child encapsulated.) It was a fluke that Fonsa the Unlucky managed death magic, and -- because the Golden General was so Great -- the drop of the Father's blood morphed into the Curse of Chalion. (And breaking the Curse led to unencapsulating the demon.) So, the Golden General's personality and soul were what fascinated the Father. (And dying on the battle field is one way to get souls to the gods who love them. So gods don't generally work to keep people alive unless they have plans for specific people.) Sorry, folks, I needed to refresh my memory. Anyway, I don't remember the fact that the Golden General's soul was sundered as the result of Fonsa's use of death magic. I would love to be enlightened on this.
Elizabeth wrote: "The gods weren't fighting each other."Not directly, no. But the Roknari under the Golden General persecuted and sought to eliminate the Order of the Bastard, which I suppose the Bastard would dislike (?). As the Father supported this behaviour, it seems to me that the gods were in effect fighting each other by proxy.
I suppose they could do a funeral rite for Therneas to see if any animals signalled but the occupying ghost might mess that up.
Elizabeth wrote: "It was a fluke that Fonsa the Unlucky managed death magic..."Really? I had the impression that the Bastard decides whether death magic works or not. Does He roll a couple of dice and require double-six for success?
Jonathan wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "The gods weren't fighting each other."Not directly, no. But the Roknari under the Golden General persecuted and sought to eliminate the Order of the Bastard, which I suppose the..."
Jonathan, I've been writing messily. I think these gods aren't like Wotan or Zeus in that they don't play out personal animosity through human proxies -- you don't get a Trojan war.
Jonathan wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "It was a fluke that Fonsa the Unlucky managed death magic..."Really? I had the impression that the Bastard decides whether death magic works or not. Does He roll a couple of dic..."
I shouldn't have used "fluke." What I was referring to was the shock felt by the people of Chalion when they discovered Fonsa's and the other bodies in the tower. At that point it had seemed that nothing could stop the Golden General, and Fonsa was down to one son remaining. I think Fonsa's sacrifice was huge, and his risk was great. In fact, his self sacrifice didn't even equal the death of the Golden General. I think the gods are intensely involved in their decisions.
Elizabeth wrote: "I think these gods aren't like Wotan or Zeus in that they don't play out personal animosity through human proxies..."Maybe not; I don't claim to understand the situation. But then, why was the Father strongly supporting a man who was trying to wipe out the Order of the Bastard? It would be interesting to hear what the two gods said to each other on the subject, if anything.
The way I see it, the Father is interested in great souls; He doesn’t pay attention to human society or culture. Not all that differently, the Golden General doesn’t seem interested in religion as much as conquest; he “cheats” when he protects his young demon-possessed daughter. He strikes me as the kind of leader who is extremely focused on winning. I think he doesn’t care if his people promote 4 gods or 5.
Elizabeth wrote: "The way I see it, the Father is interested in great souls; He doesn’t pay attention to human society or culture. Not all that differently, the Golden General doesn’t seem interested in religion as ..."You could be right. But it's interesting that the Father can view as a great soul someone obsessed with aggressive military conquest, which would seem appalling to many people today; though not so much to people in mediæval times. The Bastard seems to assess people in a somewhat more modern way; and I still wonder what the Bastard thought about the Roknari trying to wipe out His Order. Was He upset about it? Is He vexed with the Roknari in general? Hard to tell.
Martha wrote: "Someone else has already noted the missing "the" in the first sentence. The only other note I made on first reading is regarding "her peninsular coppery skin alloyed with lighter islander bronze" (..."You mustn't be imagining these people as electroplated. It's just a metaphor for an attractive red-brown skin color (that doesn't use food.) Typical Cedonian skin color is based on a deep tone often seen in our world in some groups in S. India, ferex. I'd also use the descriptor "mahogany" but that's a New World tree, and I've been mostly ducking Tolkien's potatoes problem, so far.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "I've been mostly ducking Tolkien's potatoes problem..."Is it a problem, though? A fantasy world may be loosely based on our world in some respects, but it doesn't have to conform to it in all respects. I suppose it can have any kind of vegetation you like, including plants totally unknown in our world.
But perhaps your concern is not so much rational, more artistic: do potatoes or mahogany fit artistically into this world? I can't comment on that, being no artist; potatoes in Middle Earth have never bothered me. I think Tolkien based the hobbits vaguely on the English people of his youth, who ate potatoes, so it seems in character for hobbits to eat potatoes.
Just love these stories. Thanks!Minor typo - Amberien of Saonne should probably be Amberein of Saone.
My take on it is that it's your world, so you (Lois) can populate it any way you want. I've previously noted that the parts of the 5GU world we've seen so far definitely have New World birds (e.g. blue jays, hummingbirds as referenced by Penric), so why not New World plants?
Re the Golden General: in The Curse of Chalion, Umegat says of him, “I saw the general once, you know. I was a spy in his princedom at the time. I hated everything he stood for, and yet… had he given me a word, a mere word, I think I might have crawled after him on my knees." To me that sounds so much like the effect of the Hallow Kingship on Ingrey in The Hallowed Hunt that I've sometimes wondered if the Father's gift of a drop of His blood wasn't an attempt to replicate that phenomenon.
Randy wrote: "I find myself wondering about whether the victim of successful death magic/miracle is always sundered. ...."I was just reading back in _The Curse of Chalion_ and one of the signals that lead Umegat to conclude that Dondo is bound to Cazaril after the half-successful death miracle is that Dondo wasn't signaled as being taken up by any god. Dondo is at that point believed to be the victim of death magic (thus the Chancellor barging into Cazaril's chamber in the morning, and then Beatriz & Iselle's, then heading out into the countryside to find the murderer). So Umegat didn't believe that being the victim of death magic meant that you were likely to be sundered.
The only two explanations I can come up with are a) the general understanding of how death magic/miracle works was different in Vilnoc/Penric's time and Chalion/Cazaril's time, which strikes me as unlikely but possible, or b) the author had a better idea :-} (which Lois has indicated sometimes happens). *shrug*?
Talli wrote: "I suppose they could do a funeral rite for Therneas to see if any animals signalled but the occupying ghost might mess that up."No, that ghost is sundered too, so the result would be the same.
L.
Talli wrote: "Just to get them out of the way: location 467/26% - you'll your - extra yourLocation 536/30% maybe an extra quote mark. I'm never quite sure"
Just for your (and others') future reference on quote marks: it's customary, when dialogue by a single speaker continues across a paragraph break without interrupting speech tags or stage business, to leave the close-quote off the first paragraph. (Although the opening quote is still left on the new paragraph.) No, I have no idea why this is. But there ya go.
Ta, L.
(Your first-spotted was a Real Typo (tm), and is now on my corrections list, thanks.)
As someone who programmed computers for several decades I can't quite feel comfortable with odd quote marks!
Talli wrote: "As someone who programmed computers for several decades I can't quite feel comfortable with odd quote marks!"I sympathize! Syntax error. (Another old programmer.)
On rereading... My mental image of Vilnoc has now grown quite a bit. Penric has much farther to walk, he's not known to all the people in the chapterhouse, there are quite a few local temples, and so on. Ya never know!
Serendi wrote: "On rereading... My mental image of Vilnoc has now grown quite a bit. Penric has much farther to walk, he's not known to all the people in the chapterhouse, there are quite a few local temples, and ..."Street map of Vilnoc not yet on sale…
# # # Intellectual Property Lois wrote: "copyright argle-bargle. Although the readers of same may appreciate attribution, should they want to follow it up. (And authors may like the advertising.)
Thank you very much for the kind heads up about quotes
A) In the past some authors have yelled at me for not being as factual as possible in there public spaces.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but some words...
...will scar me forever"
B) my spouse, and mom, are a retired corporate lawyer and a retired family lawyer( yes that trope ). Both married to creative people. So we have lots of discussions. ALWAYS err on the side of caution when both are in the room and discussing copyrights and patents
C) The most pertinent, but least exciting...
...eBook apps automatically format the quotes ( while GoodReads forbids URL s )
Edit
# # # Format
# # # Anyone
Does GoodReads have a collapsible section command?
That is how I hide quotes on other forums
Also let's me post short summaries with in depth details hidden from more casual readers ( 80% of this post could be in the Note section )
End Edit
# # # My precious... books
Senpai/ Sensei Bujold
We own all your books, originally in paper, transitioning mostly now to eBooks
# # # General discussion
# # # Multiple Formats
Giving more money to creators is also a nice bonus to owning a book in eBook, and Hardback.
Here let me help support your creating habits that supports my consumer habits
Which reminds me, I still need a copy of Knife Children in hardback, or trade paperback.
# # # Relaxing
I love getting out the hardback of Sharing Knife Vol. 1 - Beguilement, and Vol. 4 - Horizon, and just curling up in a reading nook for a relaxing umpteenth reread.
Just the cover art can relax me.
# # # Hardbacks
Hardbacks are great.
Especially with artwork included.
I have seen all the old electronic storage my dad has thrown out. He saves some unreadable media, like part of the program for the barrel roll ramp in The Man With The Golden Gun, but it IS unreadable.
While the illustrations in the Gutenberg are readable today no matter your fluency in the original language
I get a SQUEEEEEE every time Penric, and Desdemona, create, or discuss, metal printing plates ( Print All The Books )
Hardbacks ( not library bound ), and trade paperbacks, usually use archival, or long lasting, paper. Some of Dad's old dime paperbacks are practically unreadable, and unopenable
# # # Purchasing and Borrowing
Physical books
I have an odd habit of reading
The front cover
The Back cover
The first paragraph
Random paragraphs from 25%, 50% and 75% of the book
The first sentence of the Epilogue ( if a romance )
Before buying a newish author/ pseudonym
I want to make sure it will hold my interest until 75% ( 100% for romance )
This is much easier in a physical bookstore, or a library
Some eBook samples only include the publishing information!
I love publishers that release the first 20%, of the first book, in a possible series for free.
Or the first book, in a 5+ book series, for free.
# # # eBooks
eBooks are great for convenience, sharing, highlighting and notes ( see above posts )
I am always obsessive about mint condition ( spouse and therapy help ) so I have trouble borrowing my dad's physical copies with notes ( retired aerospace professor from the US Naval Academy ). And my mom's with the best parts dog eared for rereading while hurry up, and wait, at the courthouse
Marked up eBooks do not bother me. And actually makes me excited to see others' thoughts on the text
# # # Updates and Searching
As a bonus, eBooks are easily updated.
Updating old law books for mom, or law firms, is a task I am good at, but find tedious ( thank gods for headphones and CD s )
eBooks are also easy to search ( see also above page replacement. Finding the update location is half the tediousness )
FIN
Do demons ever get passed down through families? It seem like family members would be most likely to be nearby when the demon jumps.
Randy wrote: The only two explanations I can come up with are a) the general understanding of how death magic/miracle works was different in Vilnoc/Penric's time and Chalion/Cazaril's time, which strikes me as unlikely but possible, or b) the author had a better idea :-} (which Lois has indicated sometimes happens). *Really? That's interesting -- I'm not aware of any changes LMB has made in the "rules" of her worlds. She's remarkably consistent.
Melissa wrote: "Do demons ever get passed down through families? It seem like family members would be most likely to be nearby when the demon jumps."That's an interesting question! I doubt it often happens with Temple demons (and sorcerers), because the Temple has other plans and priorities, but I could easily see that being a custom in some other part of the 5GU that we haven't visited yet. Some culture that worships the Five Gods in some other way than via organized Temples, maybe.
Margaret wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Do demons ever get passed down through families? It seem like family members would be most likely to be nearby when the demon jumps."That's an interesting question! I doubt it oft..."
It could be really, really awkward having, say, your parent or grandparent in your head all the time.
Oh boy, my brain's off and running...Is the Bastard trying to make another Great-Souled Demon out of Des? For a companion, maybe?
Melissa wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Do demons ever get passed down through families? It seem like family members would be most likely to be nearby when the demon jumps."That's an interesting questio..."
Wencel in The Hallowed Hunt was damned to inhabit the bodies of his son and following generations as a result of the unfinished ritual at Holywood. I imagine that an inherited demon would be an example of the Darwin Theory -- the family would die out fast from suicide.
Holytree, not Holywood. Holywood would have driven me *nuts* trying not to read it as Hollywood!
Melissa wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Do demons ever get passed down through families? It seem like family members would be most likely to be nearby when the demon jumps."That's an interesting questio..."
I think that would be a big barrier to accepting the demon, or the demon *wanting* to jump to a family member. It's not just grandma's nagging in your head. It is *all* of her thoughts and feelings, including the things she would never share with you out of kindness or embarassment or etiquette.
Des has been through many lives, and somewhat enjoyed teasing Penric about how much she enjoyed seeing his intimate encounters from the male side for once, along with sharing her experiences as Mira and others. It would be a whole different ballgame if that came with the imprint of 'grandma' included. Not to mention her experiences with Grandpa. Ew.
It would be much easier for a new sorcerer to grow accustomed to this from someone who they didn't already have a complex relationship with. Likely Dubro and Rede will find ways to smooth over these possible snags before Maska is passed from one to the other.
And Temple sorcerers would expect to pass their demons to a learned divine. Family members without a calling would limit that pool, too.
Plus, many sorcerers don't marry, or if they have children it happens before the advent of their demons. Temple sorcerers would spend a generous amount of time around other divines, so odds about even between the availability of a divine vs. a family member
I agree with you, S Wright. Furthermore, if the demon is on its own it will want to ride someone more powerful -- or someone who offers more to the demon -- than its last. If the demon is under the Temple's control, the Temple will prefer to select the next carrier for the proper training (control? development?) of the demon.
I'd say the Temple isn't nearly as good as the Bastard is in matching demons and riders. Apt I suppose
Good points! Although IIRC, Des did say once that if Pen had died she would've jumped to Nikys. Which could be...interesting. I hope Pen gets a long happy life first, though.
I missed that remark from Des. Amusing!
That I'm not sure of. If someone had figured out at the time that Soudei was being framed, and done a more thorough investigation, Therneas might have been caught. But for whatever reason, that didn't happen; human law enforcement is humanly fallible.