Becky Robinson's Blog, page 17

Episode 49: What to consider before starting a podcast

Photo by Maxim Evseev / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of podcasts. In this episode, we are joined by Carey Green, Founder of Podcast Fast Track, Consultant, Speaker, and podcaster. 

About Carey Green

Becky: Today is a little bit special because we have Carey Green with us and Carey and his team happened to be the producers of the audio for our podcast. So we’ve gotten a little bit meta in these last few episodes talking about podcasts and how they can be a help in boosting your book. And today, we want to talk about the idea of should you start a podcast for your book and promoting it? And if so, what does it take to get there?

So before we dive in, would you be willing to share a little bit, Carey, about your background and your work in the world so our audience can get a sense of who you are and what you do?

Carey: Absolutely. I am, most of all, a follower of Christ. My past reflects that. I was a pastor for 20 years and so, after retiring from pastoral ministry, I had to find a way to put food on the table. I had a radio background as well, so podcasting was kind of a natural fit into that, and digital audio made it really easy. I began serving clients doing podcast editing, and it just took a life of its own in a way. Many people like you, Becky, and others who had the need for professional help to come along behind the scenes and get the audio done, really just came on board. We’ve got over 50 clients now and are working hard to make great content every week.

Becky: Fantastic. So would you tell us the name of your podcast and also the name of the company that does this audio production that you’re talking about?

Carey: Absolutely. The company is called Podcast Fast Track. My podcast is called Podcastification.

What makes a great podcast?

Becky: So you’ve worked on a lot of podcasts, you’ve produced a lot of podcasts, you’ve hosted a lot of podcasts, tell us, Carey, what makes a great podcast?

Carey: A great podcast is made by great content. You’ve got to have something that is helpful to your target audience, whoever they are. And helpful doesn’t necessarily mean practical, how-to steps. Helpful could be entertainment. Helpful could be some form of humor, that’s helping people laugh off the stress of a day. So helpful content is the main ingredient and then it has to be presented well, in a way that’s not harmful to the ears, not unenjoyable to listen to, but also is communicated in a way that’s effective and gets the point across.

What is important to consider before starting a podcast?

Becky: So if I have listeners today who have thought about starting their own podcast, what are some things that anyone should consider before embarking on this adventure?

Carey: I think, first of all, you need to think through a couple of really key things.

Who is the audience you’re trying to help? What is the message you are uniquely qualified to speak about that they need to hear? 

When those two are coupled together in a unique way, you find your audience over time, and you find your voice over time. And just like writing books, you have to find your voice in podcasting. You find your stride in that audience comes around, and your unique perspective resonates with them and you’re off to the races.

Becky: So thinking about my own experience, Carey, that we started our podcast, I think it was last year. We’re about 50 episodes in, maybe a few more than that by the time this episode airs, and it definitely took me a while to find my stride. When you and I first met, we had talked about me doing short podcast episodes, like five minutes long, where I’d give some book marketing tips, and I hated it. I hated recording my own voice, my own ideas, and it really opened up for me when we began to bring guests onto the show. So that advice really resonates with me, because you definitely can’t record one or two podcasts and decide it’s not for you.

Carey: Yeah, and that’s the beautiful thing about podcasting, is podcast listeners are kind of used to creators iterating as they go, and getting better as they go. And so often, you’re able to make a transition if you need to make a transition without much effect on your audience, except that they’re served better.

Becky: Any other considerations? I’d be curious for you to share with our listeners about the time commitment that may be required from starting a podcast.

Carey: Yeah, well, this definitely depends on the person, because some people are able to organize their thoughts more quickly than others and put together a plan for each episode. But I would say, on average, you’re going to need at least an hour to two per episode, just for the creation of an outline that you’re going to follow. Reaching out to any guests that you may want to have on the show, compiling resources that you need in order to speak about a topic. I mean, there are all kinds of things that could go into that preparation. Then depending on the length of the episode, you’re going to need recording time as well. So all of those things put together can be one to two hours. And then if you’re going to do the editing yourself, you’re going to do show notes or blog posts to go along with it, promotional materials, all of those kinds of things that go out on social media, those will require extra time as well. So those are the things to consider when it comes to time commitment. I do know some people who just turn on their podcast app and record and shoot it off to the world. And to me, those kinds of podcasts are not what we described at the beginning, where they’re enjoyable and helpful. They usually are just kind of rambling in or not really that beneficial to anyone.

Becky: So what do you think about the scripted podcast compared to the unscripted podcast? And when I say scripted, I mean, you actually write out the words on a script, you read them off, it’s planned, possibly rehearsed. I know that I’ve listened to some very highly produced podcasts and I assume there must be a script somewhere, even if it seems like the person is speaking extemporaneously. So how much formality is required to get great content?

Carey: Well, I think a script can be one of two things. It can be either an outline that liberates you to not have to think of where you’re going as you’re speaking, but rather to be able to come back to a page that routes you in that direction, or it can be a set of handcuffs, that makes you feel just totally constrained and you don’t feel like you can be yourself. And that really is a personality issue. So scripting, I think, is something if you know how to read a script in a way that is able to sound extemporaneous, then all the better. You’re able to write out a script to get it exactly like you want and present a very good episode that’s impacting, just like writing can be impacting when the right words are chosen. But if you’re not able to do that, and you feel like you always sound like it’s canned, you may want to try just a bullet point outline and speak from the heart based on the outline and see what comes about that way.

Do you speak from the heart or from an outline? 

Becky: So I know you have a short daily podcast, Carey, where you have devotions. Is that a scripted podcast? Are you speaking from the heart or from an outline?

Carey: Yeah, great question. That particular podcast, it’s six minutes long, and it is all just straight from the heart, and that all comes from just 20 years worth of teaching every week from the Scripture. I’m able to open up passages and apply the principles I learned in seminary and all that kind of thing, and speak from the heart. But if you’re not that well versed in your topic, obviously it takes more preparation than that.

What outside support might be needed?

Becky: Thanks, Carey. So you spoke about possible ways a person might need some outside support to get a podcast going, could you go through those in a bit more detail?

Carey: Yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of different ways that professionals in the industry can serve you if you’re looking to get a podcast started. Everything from strategy calls, just to think through your ideas and plan a way forward that you feel fits you, and fits the audience that you’re trying to reach, to behind the scenes editing of the audio, creating blog posts to go with it, creating of social media elements to help you publish your episodes, all of those things can be provided by service providers. 

How much of that you actually need? Well, it depends mainly on your bandwidth, timewise, and your desire to learn audio editing, and those kinds of things. I personally don’t think decent audio editing is hard to learn. I just think it’s time-consuming to learn and many people just really don’t have the inclination or the interest in doing that. And so that’s why people like us exist.

What is a typical budget for podcasting?

Becky: So, if our listeners are considering embarking on a podcast journey to start a podcast to promote their book or their business, what might be a typical budget, if a person is more leaning toward done for you, rather than DIY podcasting?

Carey: Great question. The budget could be anywhere from $50 per episode to $300 per episode, depending on the amount of work that you’re wanting to be done. On the lower end of the scale, you’re going to receive kind of what you would expect for the lower end of a scale in anything, it’s going to be lower quality, it’s not going to be done as professionally, it’s perhaps even going to have errors in the work. And that’s not to smear any other services, it’s just you get what you pay for in this kind of service. So what I would expect your listeners are really looking for is something that reflects their brand in a professional way and that’s gonna run probably somewhere from $120 to $300 per episode, depending on services.

What equipment might be needed/helpful?

Becky: Thanks for sharing that. So what equipment might a podcaster need to get set up? And before we started recording, I was confessing that I invested in equipment and now I just use my everyday equipment. And so obviously, anyone who has a zoom account and a headset and a laptop might not necessarily have to have equipment, but what do you typically recommend?

Carey: Well like you’re saying the equipment that you’re using is definitely fine to get started, and even to continue a podcast if your content is good enough, many times the content quality will overcome the audio quality deficiencies. But what I typically recommend is some sort of a USB microphone that will plug directly into your computer and get a better sound than the speaker or the microphone rather that’s in your computer by default, and those can cost anywhere from $70 to $100. You can find really good ones within that price range. 

You’re also going to need either earbuds or headphones to prevent the sound that’s coming out of your computer from going back into your microphone, and it can create this kind of a loop of sound that sounds like an echo in the background, and so the earbuds or the headphones prevent that from happening. So you can still hear what you’re recording and speaking to the mic at the same time. Besides that you’ll need some kind of software to edit your final product if you’re going to do the editing, and there’s a great free program out there called Audacity that is a little difficult to learn, but there’s plenty of youtube videos out there teaching you how to use it so that’s definitely what I would recommend.

What are the best ways you see podcasters reaching wider audiences?

Becky: Great, thank you so much. I’m curious from your perspective what are the best ways that you see podcasters reaching wider audiences with their content? What are they doing that’s helping them expand the reach of their content?

Carey: Yeah, well, one approach that I researched this last week, just because I’ve been curious about it personally because I have a couple of fiction books that I would like to promote better. And I’ve had this idea banging around in my head for a while, but also I was researching it because I thought your audience might be interested in this. There is actually an approach that a marketer, Joe Pulizzi is his name, took up when he wrote his own fiction book. And what he did, was he recorded his entire book as podcast episodes, so one chapter per episode, and he put it out for free as a podcast. He did that pre-launch of the print copies of his book, and then what it did was it built up kind of a following that signed up for his email list, wanted to know when the main production of the book was going to go into publication, and so when that happened and he launched, he had a list to launch his book publication to and then he backed off on the podcast for free and left half of the episodes out, so he did the first half took away the second half of his book, and put a call to action episode at the very end if you want to get the audio version, you want to get the print version, etc., go to Joepulizzi.com. It was a huge success and he’s working on his second book now.

Becky: That’s a fun approach and I have had folks email me about that. We primarily promote nonfiction authors so I’m curious about what application for nonfiction there might be and then, beyond that, I’m listening and I’m thinking okay, so Joe created a podcast that created demand for his book, how did he find the audience for the podcast?

Carey: Yeah I think Joe probably had a little bit of a leg up on it because he’s such a famous person. I’m sure he put it out to his list a little bit, so in the realm that you’re talking about I think content ideas for a podcast would be, basically, every chapter of the book would have enough nuggets in it if it’s nonfiction to be able to do a number of episodes from each one. And then the promotion part really is a combination of things. There’s social media, obviously, and we all know that has varying degrees of effectiveness. If you have any kind of email list of course you want to take advantage of that, and then I always encourage people to do what I call, “calling in favors.” Think of the people you know who are very successful and would be willing to share what you’re doing with their audience, if they have one, and ask them for a special favor to you, to help you get the word out about your writing. You’d be surprised how many people are willing to help in a situation like that. 

What else might someone need to consider that we haven’t talked about yet?

Becky: That is great advice. So I’m wondering what else someone who’s really starting from scratch with starting a podcast might need to consider that we haven’t talked about yet?

Carey: I think the first thing I would say is don’t be afraid of it. A lot of people get behind the microphone and get all nervous and all that and that’s one of the beautiful things about podcasting: it’s not live, you can always start again. You can edit. You can make it sound as good as you really want it to sound if you’re just patient with the process. Also, don’t feel like if you recorded it you’ve got to publish it, there’s no law that says that. I know many people who consult for podcasters, like I do, who recommend you record the first three episodes and then throw them away and do them again, because you kind of get your feet under you and you kind of get a rhythm to your speaking after a while, and in those first three just help you kind of work out the kinks, with no pressure on the line.

Becky: That’s really good advice. I wish I would’ve had that when I started. I probably would have thrown out those first three episodes. So if you’re listening today and you were not with us at the beginning of this journey, don’t listen to the first three episodes. 

Action Steps

Carey: I have a gift I’d love to give your listeners who are interested in podcasting. I’ve put together a how-to podcast step-by-step course, that walks you from A to Z all the way through. And it’s normally a $99 thing. But Becky, because it’s you, your audience gets it for free! Check out the link below!

Becky: Wow, that is such an amazing offer. Carey, thank you so much. So Carey, at the end of every podcast we always leave our listeners with a couple of action steps that they can take. And it occurs to me that the first and most important action step from this episode is to get that course for free, that’s normally $99, and really start to walk through the how-to steps that you’ve created. Do you have any other action steps that you’d like to recommend for our listeners today?

Carey: Yeah, I would say, kind of assess your own bandwidth. As we mentioned, podcasting has some time commitments involved. And so you need to know is that something I’m going to be able to commit to long term, because podcasting grows through momentum and through inertia. And so as you do more episodes of good content, you build an audience. But if you’re inconsistent, that communicates to your audience that you’re not really in it, and therefore possibly not trustworthy. And that’s not something you want to communicate, so assess your time. And if now’s not the time, that’s okay. You can always do it later.

Becky: So what would be the minimum number of episodes that someone should commit to when they’re getting started? And I know I’m throwing more questions in when we were about to wrap it up, but you know, you have so much value to offer. I want to make sure that we learn from you.

Carey: Yeah, no problem. I feel like everybody who says I’m going to do a podcast should commit to at least a year. I think it’s a year before you see any sort of inclination of what kind of audience you’re able to build, how successful it is, and whether you really like podcasting or not. Some people like it, and some people hate it. And that’s okay. We shouldn’t all be doing the same things anyway.

Becky: So a year of weekly episodes, is that what you’re recommending?

Carey: Yeah, weekly or bi-weekly. Maybe bi-weekly is half the content, obviously, but it’s still a good rhythm, and enables you to know if it’s a good fit for you. 

ResourcesLearn more about Carey and his company Podcast Fast Track, here. Connect with Podcast Fast Track on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.Connect with Carey Green on Twitter and LinkedIn. Listen to Carey’s podcast, Podcastification. If you’re looking for an audio editing software, check out Audacity. You can reach out to Carey, here. Check out Carey’s podcast step-by-step course, which walks you from A to Z all the way through, ($99 value) free for our listeners. 

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here for our free resources. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. 

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 49: What to consider before starting a podcast appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 48: a DIY approach to pitching podcasts

Photo by olegdudko / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of podcasts. In this episode we are joined by Case Lane, a writer, podcaster, and entrepreneur. 

About Case Lane

Becky: As we dive in today, I hope you’ll take a moment to tell our listeners about your work in the world and what you’re most passionate about in your work.

Case: Absolutely. I’m a writer, a podcaster, an entrepreneur, and I prepare aspiring entrepreneurs to get started in this exciting world of online business. And in doing that, as a writer, I started guest podcasting and realized that there were not a lot of really good resources on how to do it yourself. You could always hire an agency, but how do you actually do it yourself with so many, now 2 million podcasts that are out there, and just so many topics you could talk about. So I started, I taught myself how to do it, had started guest podcasting, and that built the tools and resources for other people to do it as well. I think it’s just such an outstanding way to get your message out there, to connect, to build your own network, and to really use this new exciting communication medium to launch whatever you’ve decided to do with what you’re doing in the world as well.

What value have you found in being a podcast guest?

Becky: Wonderful. Well, that’s what we’re going to talk about today. I’d love for you to start by talking to our listeners about the value that you found and that your clients have found in being podcast guests?

Case: Yeah, absolutely. This is an opportunity to really state your message. You could be a writer and so you have your book you’ve written about a particular subject, could be fiction, and this is your chance to tell the audience about it in this listening form. Podcasts have grown so much recently, the last few years especially, so people enjoy just being able to listen in on conversations that they couldn’t hear before and to get some insightful information. If you’re a writer, you’re telling different stories about it. You’re telling me maybe about your research process that led you to the particular subject or the inspiration for your fiction or something like that. So it’s a chance to reach a bigger audience. The podcasts are working together to add value because it’s for their listeners, and hopefully their listeners become your listeners in a way that is through the podcast as well. And, if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re promoting your product, maybe you’re just a subject matter expert on something new. So you can also get that out there. So for people, even if you’re afraid of public speaking, they go nope, it’s too nerve-wracking, but podcasting is a comfortable way to get into public speaking because it’s your podcast or having that conversation. Sure, millions of people hear it later, but for now it’s just the two of you and it’s a recording that you could keep pointing back to. It’s an asset that sits out there. You can tell other people about it, which we hope you do. You know that you could also, let’s say somebody wants to bring you on as a speaker somewhere, you can say, “Oh, well, I did a podcast interview, you can listen here.” So it has a long shelf life. Right now, podcasts are basically lasting forever, because there’s no reason to take them down, because somebody paid for the hosting. So that’s something that you have, and you could just keep using it and go back to it all the time.

What is a guest star?

Becky: I love that. So before recording with you, I did read an article that you wrote about this idea of being a guest on podcasts, and you called this the guest star. So talk to us about what you mean by being a guest star and the value that creates?

Case: Oh, thank you for checking out my blog. The analogy there is what do you think about when you’re watching a TV show or it says special guest star, special guest appearance? That person is bringing a little something extra to the normal routine of the show, especially if it’s a big name. As an audience, everyone has a little bit of anticipation, like “Oh, there’s something new and exciting going to be happening this time.” There are podcasts that have guests on all the time and there are a lot of listeners who will look at the podcast episode descriptions and that’s what they’re looking for, like, “Oh, I want to hear what this person has to say about this.” So they’ll listen to that episode because of that particular guest. So that’s the role that you start to play. If you’re doing guest podcasting, you are providing that extra piece of excitement for the show and obviously, you want to be delivering value all the time because the reason that every listener wants to hear you is because you’ve got some value for them. I personally listen to a lot of podcasts, and I personally like the ones that I call “teaching podcasts,” where you actually have to sit there and take some notes because suddenly you realize that the value is something that you really want to go back to. And so you have to either make a note of what show it was or take some notes while you’re doing it. But that’s really what it’s about. It’s being that person who is providing that little extra for that particular episode.

What are the best practices when pitching a podcast host?

Becky: I love that concept. So I’m curious, you talk about training people to do it themselves in terms of seeking these guest podcast opportunities. So I’m hoping that we can spend a few minutes talking about some of the best practices associated with doing that. And I’m wondering what elements you think are essential to include if you are pitching a podcast host because you want to be a guest?

Case: Yeah! Connect what you’re going to say to what that show is about. So do your research, you make sure you read the show description, you’ve listened to some episodes, and you could have seen, for example, that there was a previous guest who talked about the same general subject that you talked about. So you then want to bring your angle to it, make it something different, there’s more to the story, something like that. So you really want to make sure when you’re creating that pitch that you really make it clear to the podcaster that you know what this show is about. 

I don’t care if you’re doing 200 pitches a month, each one you should treat individually, giving its own time of research, where you really do reach out in a very specific way.

So you’ve looked at their show and say, “I realize you’ve not talked about this, or you have spoken about this, but you haven’t spoken about it in this way,” or “Here’s a brand new topic that I think your audience might be interested in, because you did this,” and really show that you can make that connection with the podcaster. I think if you get that into your pitch email, that’s really helpful because if you’re a podcaster, if you’re on the other side of it, as you’re receiving pitches, and sometimes they don’t even put the show name in and you can just tell it’s a template, you don’t know why you have to if you’re forcing the podcaster to think about who you are and what value and all that kind of stuff. Now, you just have to put that into the pitch right upfront. Save the podcaster the time and the effort by doing all their questions for them ahead of time. And then you’ve really set yourself up, even though you still might not get a response. But at least you’ve done a good job in presenting what your particular subject could be.

Becky: Yeah, I love that and I keep thinking about this pitch that I received where the person pitching said, so and so was a fan and has listened to your show, and then proceeded to offer a pitch that had nothing to do with what we talked about. 

So is there anything else that you think podcasts are looking for, that people can keep in mind to help them set themselves apart when they’re going out to seek these opportunities?

Case: Yeah, when you’re doing the show, you want to think about how is that show going to be promoted? So there’s a lot that goes on. A lot of podcasters talk about this: how do we get the show promoted? Because obviously, there’s the big podcasts, top 100. But there are 2 million podcasts and there are people who are talking about so many different subjects. So you want to be able to present to the podcaster a way that makes them stand out in whatever the particular industry or genre is. You want to help them think about a way that they have a specific angle or can also reach maybe even new people, and it could be hashtags or something like that, like a way that you can really draw attention to that particular episode and why it means so much more and why it’s different and how you could help them promote it. I think it’s something to watch out for, it’s going to get more and more sophisticated because the big shows are getting a lot of attention and money and so on. So the other shows are looking at how they could differentiate themselves, what could be some of the subjects that they could be talking about, how they could do more exciting things with promotion, and what I’m trying to do is go back to shows as well and point out, okay, I spoke about something on this show or something on that show, and then tie that into things like my blogs and other things. So I think that’s what you want to keep in mind. How can you help make sure that that episode gets out there and people are listening and are finding it, because podcast discovery is mostly word of mouth, right?

A DIY podcast approach to discovering and pitching podcasts 

Becky: Definitely. So you mentioned, Case, how many podcasts there are out there right now. So as someone who’s looking to take a DIY approach to discover shows that might be a fit for their topics and then to pitch those podcasts, what tools or tactics do you recommend to people to find the right podcast to even pitch?

Case: Yeah, so what you’re going to be doing is using the podcast directories. Now, the directories are the places where all the podcasts are listed. And there are some big ones like Apple and Amazon Music, and so on. And then there are all sorts of other ones that you might not have even heard of, that are either tied to apps, or they’re just websites. Now I’ve looked at a lot of directories. I’ve looked at more than 80, and there is not one that gives you all the information you need right upfront, so you have to play with it a bit. There’s a couple of things you really want to look for. 

So we talked about, yes, there are 2 billion podcasts, but podcasts last forever. So they’re not all active and as somebody who wants to be interviewed, you absolutely want to know, what was the last day of the last episode after the upload date? When was the last time the show was uploaded? Because sometimes you look oh, it’s a great description, it’s perfect for your topic, it’s awesome for your book, and then you realize, oh, they haven’t done a show in a year. And the thing is, most podcasters, don’t do a final episode. So there’s no way to sort of glance at it and realize it’s over. Also for some podcasters it’s not over, they’re just taking a break. I actually give it a six-month window, if I see a show was posted in the last six months, and everything else looks good, I will reach out to the podcaster to say, “Hey, are you still doing your show?” and tell them the pitch. So you want to watch for that. Then you want to look at the episode descriptions. I mentioned before, make sure that you’re looking at a show that does interviews, look at episode duration. If every episode is two to five minutes, maybe it’s just tips of the day and it’s not an interview show. So everything I get from the descriptions podcasters are writing themselves. Descriptions could be anything from one or two lines to five paragraphs telling you everything that they need to. So that’s another use, you have to listen to the show because sometimes the episode descriptions are all the same. If you are unsure, you listen to the show. Make sure that if you’re going to use the podcast directories, the first thing you want to do is get your keywords together, and that’s based on whatever your subject is. Pick a broad range of keywords, because most of the directories there, they’re not sophisticated search engines like Google or Amazon, so they’re only looking at show titles. So I always use this example, if you speak about tulips, you find there are 42 tulip podcasts. But you also want to look up flowers, you’re going to search for gardening, search for fragrance. So you’re going to be searching by keyword in these podcast directories. So create your keyword list first. And then when you go into the directories start searching, and you see the results come back. You check the last episode, upload date, make sure it’s an active show. And then if it looks active, begin your research, check the show description, the episode descriptions, the episode duration, listen to the show, then you want to go out to the website, see if there’s a show website, a host website, that’s where you’re going to find the contact information most of the time. When you’re on the website, you have a chance to take a look at the host bio, see if there’s any connection there. So again, you could put that into your pitch like, “Oh, I noticed you worked at such and such a place.” And that’s the process. 

So it’s a process of taking the time to go through everything. But in my opinion, when you do it yourself, you give yourself a lot more chances to interview. Because I’ve seen some of the agencies and I don’t know them all, obviously, but some of the ones I’ve looked at, maybe for what they’re charging, might give you one or two interviews a month. But if you’re doing your own research, you could probably come up with dozens of interviews a month. And not only that, when you’re reaching out directly to the podcaster, you’re actually building your network at the same time, because you’re reaching out to people who are talking about what you’re interested in talking about. So these are people you might come across later at conferences, or you could collaborate with them, or all these things. You don’t get that back and forth if you are just talking to your agency that is sending anonymous emails out to podcasters. You don’t even know what they say. So I go through the process, you put as much time into it every day or once a week or as often as you like, based on how many shows you really want to interview on. There are a lot of shows to go through. So if you’ve set a target for yourself, but you want to do 100 interviews, as you go through this process, you’ll get to 100 interviews.

Becky: Wonderful! That is so rich. I’m learning lots from you as well, and I agree it makes sense that if I got a pitch that was well researched, as I did from you, then chances are I’m going to reach back out and want to find out more. So you getting on this podcast is a great example of your own process and approach working really, really well.

Case: Yeah, I mean, I should say we hadn’t met before and that’s what’s happened throughout this entire process. I’ve had an opportunity now with different podcasters. I mentioned doing collaborations and so on, I’ve actually gone on and done different projects with people that I’ve met just through this podcast process. So think of it more as a broader approach to everything that you’re doing, your writing, and your business, as opposed to just a one-off type of interview.

How can you drive traffic to get the most value out of being a guest?

Becky: That’s really helpful. So one last question today, Case. I’m curious, once you’ve landed a show, once you’ve recorded the episode, what you can do after the show, that increases the value to that podcast host, and drives traffic to that episode to make sure that you get the value out of being a guest?

Case: Yeah, absolutely have a plan about how you plan to promote. So based on, for example, social media, of course, is the most popular way. So depending on which social sites that you’re on, have set up, even create templates for yourself. It’s okay to do that, we talked about really personalizing with the podcast, what you could do is personalize every single post as well, but have a template ready so that you can go through it quickly. 

You’re really organized, Becky, but not everybody is. So a lot of podcasters suddenly, one day you receive an email that says, “Hey, your show’s live”, and you’re like, “Oh, I had 100 things to do today, I’m not gonna be able to promote right away.” But again, have a plan. As soon as I receive an email that the show is live, I will schedule on my calendar within the next whatever, 72 hours or something like that, I will post all of the promos. Get your work organized because some hosts do not send any graphics or images and so on. So have templates for that, also have one for Instagram size, Twitter size, all the different ones have it all set up ahead of time. You can even ask the podcaster, let’s say, the links, some podcasters send you the links for their website. I think that’s the preferred way to promote that way you drive people to their website, but if they don’t, go and grab the link off of Apple podcasts, you can find those very easily. So just put that plan in place. 

And then if you have an email list, include promotions to your email list as well. And as I mentioned before, you can also go back to those episodes all the time, that’s a lasting asset that you have out there. So if somebody says, two months from now or 10 months from now, “When were you speaking about guest podcasting and provided a summary,” I said, “Oh, I did that on this show,” and then you can go back and you can have them all organized on your website, app graphics of the show with a little write up about what they’re about, and just point people back there. So you could always go do that. So obviously, set up your plan about how you plan to promote, create your template, so you’re not thinking it through every time, like I don’t know what to say, and then have a process also for putting something on your website to point people back to the show.

Action Steps

Becky: Perfect. Well, this episode has been full of possible actions that authors may want to take to become podcast guests as a means of marketing their books. But I’m wondering if you could pull out two favorites, Case, because we always, at the end of every episode, want to give people things they can implement today.

Case: Yeah, absolutely. 

So I’ll go back to selecting your keywords. I think that’s really, really important because as I mentioned, the podcast directories just don’t have good search engines. And if you put in a keyword for your subject, you might miss a whole bunch of shows that don’t use that specific word in their title. So really think broadly, spend some time thinking through what are all the types of keywords that a podcaster could be using to talk about this subject. As for guest podcasting, I reached out to marketing, podcast, brand podcast strategy, influencing, oh, you know, all these different things, because I try to think broadly about who might be talking about that subject. And then the other thing, so you do that, and then there’s a different podcast directory I mentioned. So you’ll go into the one and what I like to do first is just make a long list of potential shows before I start researching one by one. So I have a chart that I track everything, it’s a good idea to track everything because a lot of shows have similar names. So you want to make sure you’re not looking at the same one all the time. A good directory to do that, for example, is Listen Notes. Listen Notes provides about one or two lines of description the first time you’re searching. So you could just make a quick list of say, 100 shows, and then go in and search each one, one by one, to find the information to do that longer search that I talked about. So I think that’s a more efficient way to do it. Instead of giving yourself a list so you can have a sense of how many shows you might be able to get to. And again, you’re not going to find all the information for all of them. It’s not all there, even contact information. Sometimes it’s hard to find but it is the approach. I always say, keep going on to the next one. If you don’t find the information, move on to the next one, because there are so many shows that you could be looking at.ResourcesLearn more about Case and the work she does here. Follow Guest Podcasting on Facebook.Connect with Case Lane on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. Use this free checklist to find the perfect podcasts for a conversation with you.

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here for our free resources. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. 

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 48: a DIY approach to pitching podcasts appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 48: A DIY approach to podcasting

Photo by olegdudko / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of podcasts. In this episode we are joined by Case Lane, a writer, podcaster, and entrepreneur. 

About Case Lane

Becky: As we dive in today, I hope you’ll take a moment to tell our listeners about your work in the world and what you’re most passionate about in your work.

Case: Absolutely. I’m a writer, a podcaster, an entrepreneur, and I prepare aspiring entrepreneurs to get started in this exciting world of online business. And in doing that, as a writer, I started guest podcasting and realized that there were not a lot of really good resources on how to do it yourself. You could always hire an agency, but how do you actually do it yourself with so many, now 2 million podcasts that are out there, and just so many topics you could talk about. So I started, I taught myself how to do it, had started guest podcasting, and that built the tools and resources for other people to do it as well. I think it’s just such an outstanding way to get your message out there, to connect, to build your own network, and to really use this new exciting communication medium to launch whatever you’ve decided to do with what you’re doing in the world as well.

What value have you found in being a podcast guest?

Becky: Wonderful. Well, that’s what we’re going to talk about today. I’d love for you to start by talking to our listeners about the value that you found and that your clients have found in being podcast guests?

Case: Yeah, absolutely. This is an opportunity to really state your message. You could be a writer and so you have your book you’ve written about a particular subject, could be fiction, and this is your chance to tell the audience about it in this listening form. Podcasts have grown so much recently, the last few years especially, so people enjoy just being able to listen in on conversations that they couldn’t hear before and to get some insightful information. If you’re a writer, you’re telling different stories about it. You’re telling me maybe about your research process that led you to the particular subject or the inspiration for your fiction or something like that. So it’s a chance to reach a bigger audience. The podcasts are working together to add value because it’s for their listeners, and hopefully their listeners become your listeners in a way that is through the podcast as well. And, if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re promoting your product, maybe you’re just a subject matter expert on something new. So you can also get that out there. So for people, even if you’re afraid of public speaking, they go nope, it’s too nerve-wracking, but podcasting is a comfortable way to get into public speaking because it’s your podcast or having that conversation. Sure, millions of people hear it later, but for now it’s just the two of you and it’s a recording that you could keep pointing back to. It’s an asset that sits out there. You can tell other people about it, which we hope you do. You know that you could also, let’s say somebody wants to bring you on as a speaker somewhere, you can say, “Oh, well, I did a podcast interview, you can listen here.” So it has a long shelf life. Right now, podcasts are basically lasting forever, because there’s no reason to take them down, because somebody paid for the hosting. So that’s something that you have, and you could just keep using it and go back to it all the time.

What is a guest star?

Becky: I love that. So before recording with you, I did read an article that you wrote about this idea of being a guest on podcasts, and you called this the guest star. So talk to us about what you mean by being a guest star and the value that creates?

Case: Oh, thank you for checking out my blog. The analogy there is what do you think about when you’re watching a TV show or it says special guest star, special guest appearance? That person is bringing a little something extra to the normal routine of the show, especially if it’s a big name. As an audience, everyone has a little bit of anticipation, like “Oh, there’s something new and exciting going to be happening this time.” There are podcasts that have guests on all the time and there are a lot of listeners who will look at the podcast episode descriptions and that’s what they’re looking for, like, “Oh, I want to hear what this person has to say about this.” So they’ll listen to that episode because of that particular guest. So that’s the role that you start to play. If you’re doing guest podcasting, you are providing that extra piece of excitement for the show and obviously, you want to be delivering value all the time because the reason that every listener wants to hear you is because you’ve got some value for them. I personally listen to a lot of podcasts, and I personally like the ones that I call “teaching podcasts,” where you actually have to sit there and take some notes because suddenly you realize that the value is something that you really want to go back to. And so you have to either make a note of what show it was or take some notes while you’re doing it. But that’s really what it’s about. It’s being that person who is providing that little extra for that particular episode.

What are the best practices when pitching a podcast host?

Becky: I love that concept. So I’m curious, you talk about training people to do it themselves in terms of seeking these guest podcast opportunities. So I’m hoping that we can spend a few minutes talking about some of the best practices associated with doing that. And I’m wondering what elements you think are essential to include if you are pitching a podcast host because you want to be a guest?

Case: Yeah! Connect what you’re going to say to what that show is about. So do your research, you make sure you read the show description, you’ve listened to some episodes, and you could have seen, for example, that there was a previous guest who talked about the same general subject that you talked about. So you then want to bring your angle to it, make it something different, there’s more to the story, something like that. So you really want to make sure when you’re creating that pitch that you really make it clear to the podcaster that you know what this show is about. 

I don’t care if you’re doing 200 pitches a month, each one you should treat individually, giving its own time of research, where you really do reach out in a very specific way.

So you’ve looked at their show and say, “I realize you’ve not talked about this, or you have spoken about this, but you haven’t spoken about it in this way,” or “Here’s a brand new topic that I think your audience might be interested in, because you did this,” and really show that you can make that connection with the podcaster. I think if you get that into your pitch email, that’s really helpful because if you’re a podcaster, if you’re on the other side of it, as you’re receiving pitches, and sometimes they don’t even put the show name in and you can just tell it’s a template, you don’t know why you have to if you’re forcing the podcaster to think about who you are and what value and all that kind of stuff. Now, you just have to put that into the pitch right upfront. Save the podcaster the time and the effort by doing all their questions for them ahead of time. And then you’ve really set yourself up, even though you still might not get a response. But at least you’ve done a good job in presenting what your particular subject could be.

Becky: Yeah, I love that and I keep thinking about this pitch that I received where the person pitching said, so and so was a fan and has listened to your show, and then proceeded to offer a pitch that had nothing to do with what we talked about. 

So is there anything else that you think podcasts are looking for, that people can keep in mind to help them set themselves apart when they’re going out to seek these opportunities?

Case: Yeah, when you’re doing the show, you want to think about how is that show going to be promoted? So there’s a lot that goes on. A lot of podcasters talk about this: how do we get the show promoted? Because obviously, there’s the big podcasts, top 100. But there are 2 million podcasts and there are people who are talking about so many different subjects. So you want to be able to present to the podcaster a way that makes them stand out in whatever the particular industry or genre is. You want to help them think about a way that they have a specific angle or can also reach maybe even new people, and it could be hashtags or something like that, like a way that you can really draw attention to that particular episode and why it means so much more and why it’s different and how you could help them promote it. I think it’s something to watch out for, it’s going to get more and more sophisticated because the big shows are getting a lot of attention and money and so on. So the other shows are looking at how they could differentiate themselves, what could be some of the subjects that they could be talking about, how they could do more exciting things with promotion, and what I’m trying to do is go back to shows as well and point out, okay, I spoke about something on this show or something on that show, and then tie that into things like my blogs and other things. So I think that’s what you want to keep in mind. How can you help make sure that that episode gets out there and people are listening and are finding it, because podcast discovery is mostly word of mouth, right?

A DIY podcast approach to discovering and pitching podcasts 

Becky: Definitely. So you mentioned, Case, how many podcasts there are out there right now. So as someone who’s looking to take a DIY approach to discover shows that might be a fit for their topics and then to pitch those podcasts, what tools or tactics do you recommend to people to find the right podcast to even pitch?

Case: Yeah, so what you’re going to be doing is using the podcast directories. Now, the directories are the places where all the podcasts are listed. And there are some big ones like Apple and Amazon Music, and so on. And then there are all sorts of other ones that you might not have even heard of, that are either tied to apps, or they’re just websites. Now I’ve looked at a lot of directories. I’ve looked at more than 80, and there is not one that gives you all the information you need right upfront, so you have to play with it a bit. There’s a couple of things you really want to look for. 

So we talked about, yes, there are 2 billion podcasts, but podcasts last forever. So they’re not all active and as somebody who wants to be interviewed, you absolutely want to know, what was the last day of the last episode after the upload date? When was the last time the show was uploaded? Because sometimes you look oh, it’s a great description, it’s perfect for your topic, it’s awesome for your book, and then you realize, oh, they haven’t done a show in a year. And the thing is, most podcasters, don’t do a final episode. So there’s no way to sort of glance at it and realize it’s over. Also for some podcasters it’s not over, they’re just taking a break. I actually give it a six-month window, if I see a show was posted in the last six months, and everything else looks good, I will reach out to the podcaster to say, “Hey, are you still doing your show?” and tell them the pitch. So you want to watch for that. Then you want to look at the episode descriptions. I mentioned before, make sure that you’re looking at a show that does interviews, look at episode duration. If every episode is two to five minutes, maybe it’s just tips of the day and it’s not an interview show. So everything I get from the descriptions podcasters are writing themselves. Descriptions could be anything from one or two lines to five paragraphs telling you everything that they need to. So that’s another use, you have to listen to the show because sometimes the episode descriptions are all the same. If you are unsure, you listen to the show. Make sure that if you’re going to use the podcast directories, the first thing you want to do is get your keywords together, and that’s based on whatever your subject is. Pick a broad range of keywords, because most of the directories there, they’re not sophisticated search engines like Google or Amazon, so they’re only looking at show titles. So I always use this example, if you speak about tulips, you find there are 42 tulip podcasts. But you also want to look up flowers, you’re going to search for gardening, search for fragrance. So you’re going to be searching by keyword in these podcast directories. So create your keyword list first. And then when you go into the directories start searching, and you see the results come back. You check the last episode, upload date, make sure it’s an active show. And then if it looks active, begin your research, check the show description, the episode descriptions, the episode duration, listen to the show, then you want to go out to the website, see if there’s a show website, a host website, that’s where you’re going to find the contact information most of the time. When you’re on the website, you have a chance to take a look at the host bio, see if there’s any connection there. So again, you could put that into your pitch like, “Oh, I noticed you worked at such and such a place.” And that’s the process. 

So it’s a process of taking the time to go through everything. But in my opinion, when you do it yourself, you give yourself a lot more chances to interview. Because I’ve seen some of the agencies and I don’t know them all, obviously, but some of the ones I’ve looked at, maybe for what they’re charging, might give you one or two interviews a month. But if you’re doing your own research, you could probably come up with dozens of interviews a month. And not only that, when you’re reaching out directly to the podcaster, you’re actually building your network at the same time, because you’re reaching out to people who are talking about what you’re interested in talking about. So these are people you might come across later at conferences, or you could collaborate with them, or all these things. You don’t get that back and forth if you are just talking to your agency that is sending anonymous emails out to podcasters. You don’t even know what they say. So I go through the process, you put as much time into it every day or once a week or as often as you like, based on how many shows you really want to interview on. There are a lot of shows to go through. So if you’ve set a target for yourself, but you want to do 100 interviews, as you go through this process, you’ll get to 100 interviews.

Becky: Wonderful! That is so rich. I’m learning lots from you as well, and I agree it makes sense that if I got a pitch that was well researched, as I did from you, then chances are I’m going to reach back out and want to find out more. So you getting on this podcast is a great example of your own process and approach working really, really well.

Case: Yeah, I mean, I should say we hadn’t met before and that’s what’s happened throughout this entire process. I’ve had an opportunity now with different podcasters. I mentioned doing collaborations and so on, I’ve actually gone on and done different projects with people that I’ve met just through this podcast process. So think of it more as a broader approach to everything that you’re doing, your writing, and your business, as opposed to just a one-off type of interview.

How can you drive traffic to get the most value out of being a guest?

Becky: That’s really helpful. So one last question today, Case. I’m curious, once you’ve landed a show, once you’ve recorded the episode, what you can do after the show, that increases the value to that podcast host, and drives traffic to that episode to make sure that you get the value out of being a guest?

Case: Yeah, absolutely have a plan about how you plan to promote. So based on, for example, social media, of course, is the most popular way. So depending on which social sites that you’re on, have set up, even create templates for yourself. It’s okay to do that, we talked about really personalizing with the podcast, what you could do is personalize every single post as well, but have a template ready so that you can go through it quickly. 

You’re really organized, Becky, but not everybody is. So a lot of podcasters suddenly, one day you receive an email that says, “Hey, your show’s live”, and you’re like, “Oh, I had 100 things to do today, I’m not gonna be able to promote right away.” But again, have a plan. As soon as I receive an email that the show is live, I will schedule on my calendar within the next whatever, 72 hours or something like that, I will post all of the promos. Get your work organized because some hosts do not send any graphics or images and so on. So have templates for that, also have one for Instagram size, Twitter size, all the different ones have it all set up ahead of time. You can even ask the podcaster, let’s say, the links, some podcasters send you the links for their website. I think that’s the preferred way to promote that way you drive people to their website, but if they don’t, go and grab the link off of Apple podcasts, you can find those very easily. So just put that plan in place. 

And then if you have an email list, include promotions to your email list as well. And as I mentioned before, you can also go back to those episodes all the time, that’s a lasting asset that you have out there. So if somebody says, two months from now or 10 months from now, “When were you speaking about guest podcasting and provided a summary,” I said, “Oh, I did that on this show,” and then you can go back and you can have them all organized on your website, app graphics of the show with a little write up about what they’re about, and just point people back there. So you could always go do that. So obviously, set up your plan about how you plan to promote, create your template, so you’re not thinking it through every time, like I don’t know what to say, and then have a process also for putting something on your website to point people back to the show.

Action Steps

Becky: Perfect. Well, this episode has been full of possible actions that authors may want to take to become podcast guests as a means of marketing their books. But I’m wondering if you could pull out two favorites, Case, because we always, at the end of every episode, want to give people things they can implement today.

Case: Yeah, absolutely. 

So I’ll go back to selecting your keywords. I think that’s really, really important because as I mentioned, the podcast directories just don’t have good search engines. And if you put in a keyword for your subject, you might miss a whole bunch of shows that don’t use that specific word in their title. So really think broadly, spend some time thinking through what are all the types of keywords that a podcaster could be using to talk about this subject. As for guest podcasting, I reached out to marketing, podcast, brand podcast strategy, influencing, oh, you know, all these different things, because I try to think broadly about who might be talking about that subject. And then the other thing, so you do that, and then there’s a different podcast directory I mentioned. So you’ll go into the one and what I like to do first is just make a long list of potential shows before I start researching one by one. So I have a chart that I track everything, it’s a good idea to track everything because a lot of shows have similar names. So you want to make sure you’re not looking at the same one all the time. A good directory to do that, for example, is Listen Notes. Listen Notes provides about one or two lines of description the first time you’re searching. So you could just make a quick list of say, 100 shows, and then go in and search each one, one by one, to find the information to do that longer search that I talked about. So I think that’s a more efficient way to do it. Instead of giving yourself a list so you can have a sense of how many shows you might be able to get to. And again, you’re not going to find all the information for all of them. It’s not all there, even contact information. Sometimes it’s hard to find but it is the approach. I always say, keep going on to the next one. If you don’t find the information, move on to the next one, because there are so many shows that you could be looking at.ResourcesLearn more about Case and the work she does here. Follow Guest Podcasting on Facebook.Connect with Case Lane on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. Use this free checklist to find the perfect podcasts for a conversation with you.

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here for our free resources. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. 

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 48: A DIY approach to podcasting appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 47: The Value of Social Media for Authors from Publishing to Marketing

Photo by maverickinfanta / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of social media. In this episode, we are joined by Maggie Smith, author of Good Bones, The Well Speaks of Its Own Poison, Lamp of the Body, and the national bestseller Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change.

About Maggie Smith 

Becky: Before we get started today, I have to tell you that I’ve been having a bit of a fangirl moment because I’ve been following Maggie Smith Poet on social media for a while. When her most recent book came out, I’m pretty sure I bought it the first week and so not only do I think that Maggie Smith has a lot to add, in terms of some learning for authors and aspiring authors about how to leverage social media effectively, I just think it is so fun that I get to have a conversation with her. 

So Maggie, welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about you and your work?

Maggie: My first three books are collections of poems, the most recent of which was Good Bones, published in 2017. And my most recent book is called Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change, and that came out with One Signal, Simon and Schuster, in October of 2020. And it’s a collection of essays and quotes, so a departure from poetry for me. 

Becky: But very poetic!

Maggie: Yeah, you can’t really take the poetry out of the poet. That’s the thing.

Keep Moving began as a set of daily tweets. Would you share that story?

Becky: It’s beautiful. So the latest book, Keep Moving began as a set of daily tweets, would you be willing to share that story with us?

Maggie: Yeah, so I started writing this book, before I knew it was a book, I didn’t intend to write a book. That happened really organically. I was going through a really terrible time. I was getting divorced and I started writing these daily notes, little self pep talks to myself every day, first thing in the morning, usually before I even made my coffee, just to kind of get myself into a brighter mindset for the day. I posted them on social media, in part because I’m not really a diary keeper. So if I write something, it’s to share, and it felt important to me because so much of social media is curated. We’re showing our best selves, and our cleanest houses and our most well-behaved kid days, and not the sink full of dirty dishes and the inbox of 1000 not replied emails and our hair when we wake up in the morning, and so often, I think we think that other people have it all together, because that’s what they’re projecting on social media. And so it felt important to me to sort of align my social media self with the person who was actually living day to day in this house and the way I could do that was by coming clean and being honest about going through a hard time without sharing details, but just coming clean in that way. And so I was doing that every day and people really started responding to them and retweeting them and sharing them and saying, “I’m going through something similar and I really needed this today,” or “I wish I had read this when I was going through my own divorce,” or job loss or diagnosis, or whatever the crisis was. And it built a sense of community, really organically online, and people started asking for a book of these, “I wish I had this as a journal or a page, a day calendar, or a book I could give to a neighbor or keep on my bedside table.” And that’s really where the idea to compile these notes into a form that didn’t just live on screen, that’s where the idea came from.

Becky: It’s amazing, and I’m so glad you wrote it, Maggie. I think that I shared that experience that others have shared with you, of reading one of your posts at just the right moment. So thank you. 

Did you have a strong social media following before you started the Keep Moving content?

Becky: I’m curious, Maggie, did you have a strong social media following before you started the Keep Moving content? And how did you develop that?

Maggie: Yeah, I did. I mean, not like it is now. I think I had about 16,000 Twitter followers when I started the posts, and now I have 60,000. So the posts grew my following a lot. But my following was fairly strong for a poet at that point, mostly because of Good Bones going viral in 2016, and then again in 2017. And so social media has been sort of oddly important to my career over the past few years, in a way that I had not anticipated because, obviously, if that poem hadn’t been published online, and then hadn’t happened to come out online, during the same week that the Pulse nightclub shooting happened in Orlando, Florida, it wouldn’t have gone viral, which then, wouldn’t have had this sort of domino effect that it did. So I was already pretty active on Twitter at that point, but the posts, in some ways, reached that poetry audience, but ended up reaching a completely different audience, and expanding my readership in a way also.

Becky: That’s helpful, Maggie. I’m thinking about the importance of timing with all of this. And I know, having watched you on some major media broadcasts, the timing of the Keep Moving book, in the middle of the pandemic, when people needed that nudge to keep moving, was impeccable. And the timing of the poem, it sounds like also was, I’m not sure what word to use here. It also really met the needs that people were feeling at that moment.

Maggie: Yeah, it’s been kind of strange, because I’ve written things. You know, the way publishing works is you write things well ahead of them ever appearing in front of readers, and sometimes it’s months, and sometimes it’s years. And so I wrote Keep Moving a year before the pandemic, and I wrote Good Bones a year before it was published. And so it was sort of prescient, but obviously, I had no idea that any of those things were coming and it didn’t feel fortuitous at first to have a book coming out during 2020. In fact, the publication date was supposed to be May and was bumped to October because of the pandemic. And we were kind of scrambling to see what this would all mean. But I agree, it does feel like it was the right time for this book to come out. Because I wrote it during sort of my worst year, and then it came out during a year that’s been so hard for so many people, it seems like it’s getting to do more of its work in this environment.

Not Making The New York Bestseller’s list

Becky: Well, let’s talk a little bit about that, Maggie, because before we started recording, you and I were talking a little bit. I had thought for sure, based on what I’ve seen about the book, that it had made the New York Times bestseller list. And you mentioned that, for various logistical reasons, it didn’t. But let’s talk about the New York Times bestseller list and your own perspective about that.

Maggie: No, the book didn’t make the list, it came really close and did not for a variety of reasons. I think it’s okay to be bummed out for a few minutes about that, the day that it’s not going to happen. But my feeling was, it was never a goal of mine. It has honestly been so incredible, as a poet, to have written this book that sort of defies genre, in a way, I don’t really know any other book quite like it, and I wasn’t sure how it would be received. And so to have it become even a national bestseller, which it has been incredible. I don’t think of that for me as a miss because it was never something that I felt like was in my grasp, to begin with. 

And also, like I was saying to you earlier, I think the best way to sort of kill the joy of the book publishing experience is to put a bunch of expectations for what these milestones should be that you want to hit, whether they’re sales numbers, or reviews, or lists or any of that. The fastest way to make yourself feel stressed out instead of grateful is to have expectations. And so going into something and trying not to have expectations and just hope that the book finds its readers, the people who need that book at that moment, I think is a healthier way to approach it. So I’m always trying to do that instead.

What does your work mean to you?

Becky: I just love that. We spoke, I think, also about what the work means to you. Would you be willing to share that?

Maggie: Well for me, writing this book was literal self-help. I wrote this book for me and I think maybe that kind of authenticity comes across in the writing. I think writing is different when it’s done for an audience, versus when we do it for the sake of the work, or even for ourselves. I never thought of this book as a product. I never thought of it as a commodity. I never even thought of it as something that would, really, pay my bills and do anything. And that way I didn’t think I would have the opportunities that I’ve had because of this book. I wrote it literally to get myself through day one, day two, day three, day four, day five, and before it was even published, it did its work. For me, it did its work. And so somebody asked early on, like what was your biggest goal for this book, and I think the trap is, we could find ourselves saying something like, “I want to be a New York Times bestseller,” or “I want to sell this number of copies,” and my answer, which was, and what I would still say, I want someone who felt like I did, in September of 2018, to get this book and not feel so afraid of what the future might hold for them. And if it does that for one other person, or 10, 20, 30, or 1000, that, to me, is the most important thing.

What impact did your use of social media have when you started to shop your proposal to publishers?

Becky: So for authors who may be listening today, I hope that some of Maggie’s ideas are resonating with you as they are with me, the power of our words, to make a difference in someone else’s life experience is huge. So back to the topic that I think that we came into the call with, or that I came into the call with, of social media. I’m wondering Maggie along your journey, what impact your use of social media has had, as it relates to your ability to access traditional publishing?

Maggie: Well, this book wouldn’t exist without Twitter. I mean, just no bones about it, this book wouldn’t exist without Twitter, because it started there. And because that’s where the feedback came from. So when I didn’t have an agent, when I started posting these daily tweets, and enough people were suggesting that it should be a book. I ended up reaching out and having a conversation with my now agent and working on a book proposal. I don’t think that any of that would have happened without social media. So it was a direct line between writing, posting, and then writing the book proposal and selling the book on proposal. 

I see a lot of writers on social media, particularly on Facebook, which I don’t spend a lot of time there. But asking about platforms, like how do I get a platform, I’ve just sold this book, how do I get a platform? And in some ways, I feel like well, if you’ve sold the book, you’re already behind, if you haven’t started on social media, you’re almost kind of behind. If you think of social media, as a room, with people in it, think of it as a party that you’re entering. If you’re already at the party, and you’ve made friends at the party, and then you get a book deal, you can share your book deal with the friends of the party, and everyone’s so excited, and they’re going to be more willing to help you get your book out there, because you didn’t enter the room with the book. Right? You didn’t come into the room, like who wants to hear about my book or buy my book to a bunch of strangers, you already have those connections, and you already had an authentic relationship with them that was not based on you trying to sell or promote anything. And so I think one of my biggest pieces of advice to authors is to, if you’re a writer, whether you’ve published or not, start engaging and be a good literary citizen, and share other people’s work and make connections and make friends in an authentic way so that when your time comes, and you have something that you want to promote or share and you want someone to help you retweet to get preorder sales or whatever the case may be, it’s happening from an authentic space where you already have these people in your life, and you’re not walking into a room like a walking infomercial for yourself, which is a real turnoff, right? I mean, I think people are savvy enough to sense when you come to a space for that reason only.

What do you think is the biggest value for you as an author in using social media to promote your work?

Becky: That is hugely powerful Maggie, and something I have said before as well, so thank you. So Maggie, let’s talk a little bit about the biggest value you yourself have received along this journey of using social media to promote your work.

Maggie: I mean, I think probably the sense of community I built with these posts. It’s hard because, in some ways, Good Bones would be an obvious answer, and Keep Moving in a way as a book does seem kind of like a continuation of that conversation I began with readers with Good Bones, which is really a poem about holding the darkness and the light at the same time. And so people who liked that poem, and who found me because of that poem, and then maybe got to know me personally, and got to know my parenting and my kids via social media because of that poem, it felt like kind of a natural continuation into the posts and into Keep Moving the book.

But as far as having a wider readership and a wider reach, this book is really the biggest sort of gift I think that social media has given me because it, frankly, wouldn’t have happened if followers hadn’t suggested it. It was not something I conceived of as being this kind of project, and that I think speaks to the real community that can be built online, where sometimes we might think of it as a sort of icky self-promotional space, and these are surface-level connections. And that has not been my experience. I think it’s a tool, and like any tool, it can be used for good or evil. We have seen the way that social media can be used for the latter. But I think we’ve also seen the ways that it can be used for the former, and these kinds of real community building. Relationships really are that thing for me.

What would you say to someone who thinks social media takes too much time?

Becky: That’s so powerful. So what about the author who’s listening and says, “Well, Maggie loves social media, it’s obvious. I don’t have that kind of time to spend.” So what would you say to that kind of objection? Well, that sounds like it takes entirely too much time.

Maggie: I don’t think it takes that much time. I’m a full-time single mom working from home with two kids who are doing hybrid school, and 30 different small jobs. So it’s really not that time-consuming. I mean, it really doesn’t take that many minutes out of your day, even if you set 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the middle of the day, and 10 minutes in the evening, if you picked 30 minutes out of your day, not even in one stretch, and just spent that time, not just posting yourself, maybe post one thing in that 10 minutes. But look for other people that you can signal boost and engage with those people, find people who are writing and publishing stuff you think is really interesting, and share it and thank the person for writing it and tell them that it touched you. And spending 10 minutes three times a day doing that isn’t much. And also if you take a few days off, it’s not a big deal. Also, I’m fairly shy and I’ve gotten over it, but I think it’s the easy way for those of us who are more introverted to be a little more social, because we get to do it from the safety of our own spaces. And we can choose how much to share and how vulnerable we want to be and how personal we want to be. If we want to include stuff about our family, or if it’s just professional, I mean that whatever that balance is, we get to pick. My personal opinion is people like a little bit of both. If it’s all professional stuff, it’s not that interesting. I want to see your dog. I want to know about the hilarious word problem on your second grader’s math worksheet that you could barely figure out this morning. I want to know what your politics are. I want to know what matters to you. I think if we worry too much about bringing ourselves into it that gets in the way of creating those real connections with other people.

What challenges have you faced?

Becky: Thank you. So Maggie, what if any challenges have you faced in using social media to connect and promote your work?

Maggie: I mean, I don’t know that I’ve had a lot of challenges. I’ve had a much easier time than some of my peers. I have not been bullied too much, I have not had to block too many people, though I do without reserve. It really hasn’t been taxing, I will say the key for me is doing things that feel natural. So if I’m in a marketing meeting or something, and someone says, we’d like you to do this kind of video, or we’d like you to do something like this, or a consultant suggests something, I think it’s perfectly fine to take that into consideration and either say, “that just doesn’t feel like me,” or, “you know what, that makes sense, I can see why that would work, but I think I’d rather tweak it and do something a little bit more along these lines because that feels more comfortable to me.” So that’s not really a challenge but just making sure that you’re curating the space yourself and making sure that it reflects you personally, and that you’re not doing things that you might feel uncomfortable doing for the sake of marketing. I think it’s a fine line, but it feels a lot better to be on a side of that line that you feel comfortable in.

Becky: So taking a stand for who you are, and showing up as who you are.

Maggie: Absolutely, because that’s what I mean, ultimately, your readers want you. They want to know who you are like, who you really are. And so, I do think that’s why they want to see a video clip every once in a while and they want to see a selfie and they want to see your dog, and maybe even your messy house. Because I mean, I know as a reader, I want to know about the people I read. And as a listener of music, I want to know about the singer-songwriters I admire, and I want to know about the actors I admire. And so the more sort of three-dimensional that we can make ourselves, I think that’s important. 

The Today Show Pants

Becky: I totally agree. And somehow we’ve gotten through our conversation, but we haven’t talked about The Today Show pants.

Maggie: I’ll tell you about The Today Show pants. So yeah, when I went on The Today Show, it was very early in the morning, and I was doing it live from my office where I am now and I was wearing a sweater. No, I was wearing a blouse that my daughter picked out. And I was wearing my flannel llama print pajama pants, which no one could see. And it wasn’t for any reason other than the fact that I could get away with it. And they were comfortable. I thought I knew I’d be nervous and wanted to be comfortable. But now the great joy of that is that those are my Today Show pants. So when I get them out of my drawer to sleep in them, or you know, lounge around the house in them, they have like a special memory attached and my kids think it’s funny that I call them that.

Becky: I love it. So have your Today Show pants made a cameo on your Instagram yet, Maggie?

Maggie: I have not posted an image of The Today Show pants. I don’t know that anyone really wants to see my ratty llama, pajama pants. But, maybe someday.

Action Steps

Becky: Well, Maggie, thank you so much for this conversation. There have been so many helpful suggestions along the way. And what we want to do now is what we do at the end of every episode of our podcast, which is to identify some action steps that authors might be able to take today, to be able to move forward to reach their readers in a more effective way. So, Maggie, I’m going to ask you from the things you’ve shared, what are one or two things that people could implement today?

Maggie:

I think first and foremost is to pull a couple 10 minutes spots out of your day and devote those 10 minutes to doing some social media, either posting or retweeting or reaching out to people who are publishing work you admire. I love getting comments from people saying I love this article you wrote or this meant so much to me. I love that, and I try to spend time every day going through my mentions and responding, actually engaging, not just with the heart, but actually saying, “Hey, thanks for reading this and sharing it,” or “I’m in the trenches with you too. I’m parenting and doing the same thing that you are,” and just being a human being on social media. I would say that the other thing, and I don’t know that this is an action item, but try to sort of keep your perspective on the making of the thing versus on the selling of the thing. Because I think the selling of the thing and the marketing of the thing will be sort of positively impacted if you haven’t devoted all your time obsessing over that. If you spend 90% of your time making the best book you can make and 10% of your time thinking about where you’d like to be reviewed, and whose hands you would like to get that book into, and what dreams you have for it, I think you have a greater chance of getting those things in that 10% because you’ve put the time and effort and heart into the 90%. So I don’t know if that’s a today action item, but I think it’s a big picture action item.

Becky: Thank you, Maggie. That’s really helpful and helpful for me personally to think about. I always do tell people that if you want to have a successful book launch, you have to start with a good book and I think that’s what you’re saying, to focus on the 90% and come up with the best possible offer to the world that you can.

ResourcesConnect with Maggie Smith on Instagram and Twitter. Learn more about Maggie and her work on her website. Check out her books here. To be entered into a chance to win a free copy of Maggie Smith’s book, fill out this form. 

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here for our free resources. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. 

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 47: The Value of Social Media for Authors from Publishing to Marketing appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 46: Showing up authentically online

Photo by gstockstudio / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of social media. In this episode, we are joined by Jenn Grace CEO and Founder of Publish Your Purpose Press. 

About Jenn Grace

Becky: Today we’re focusing on the topic of social media and authenticity. Welcome, Jenn. Could you tell us about yourself, before we dive into today’s topic?

Jenn: Thank you for having me. I am a publisher. I’m the founder and CEO, as you just said, at Publish Your Purpose Press. I am also a six-time author, myself. I just most recently, within the last couple of months, won an award for my book. So, I’m super excited to now say award-winning author, which is fun. Prior to my book experience, my publishing experience, I ran a consulting company for a number of years starting back in 2006. I’ve been kind of in the space of serving others, kind of in the entrepreneurial space, if you will, for I guess, 15 years now, which is fun to say.

 What channels do you find to be most effective and enjoyable?

Becky: Before we dive into the specific topic of authenticity, as it relates to social media, I’m curious if you could tell our listeners as an author, what channels you found to be most effective for you as an author? And which ones you enjoy the most? 

Jenn: That’s a really good question. For myself personally, and for the authors that we serve, LinkedIn happens to be a really good avenue, just because there are so many B2B opportunities if you are being authentic on that platform. I think there’s a lot of people on LinkedIn that are very sales-y, very inauthentic, and people can figure that out very quickly. But for me personally, LinkedIn is really where I spend a good amount of my time. And then you know, the others, Facebook and Instagram, we have a lot of authors that are really doing really well on each of those platforms individually. So there’s not really a one swooping like, “Hey, everyone’s doing awesome on Instagram,” it’s more of a case-by-case basis.

What does it mean to you to be authentic on social media channels?

Becky: That’s helpful, Jen. So, you’ve already given us a hint, as you referenced, what it looks like on LinkedIn to be inauthentic. So could you talk to me a little bit about what it means to you to be authentic on social media channels? 

Jenn: The best way that I would talk about authenticity is by talking about it both online and offline. Because I think a lot of times we, and we all probably know someone who falls into this, where you meet this person at an event, and they seem so amazing and so dynamic. You’re in a group of people and you’re like, wow, this person is so magnetic. Then you actually catch them in the elevator, just the two of you, or you catch them in the lobby, and they are miserable and grumpy because they’re not putting on the show that they were putting on previously. So, I think to me, that is a little bit of what authenticity is. Are you the same you in all areas where you show up? So how are you the same Becky, that is sitting here? And you and I are having this conversation for others to listen to, versus how were the two of us when the audio wasn’t rolling? Versus how would you interact with your neighbor when you’re bringing your garbage down on garbage day? I think that it’s important to be that same person in all of those interactions. I think why it’s important is because it’s more authentic, it’s more genuine, people really get to kind of feel and know who you are. But I also think, just from a mental health perspective, it’s exhausting trying to be different people and show up differently in different scenarios and different settings, that you end up wasting all sorts of energy on trying to be somebody that you’re not and that’s really unproductive for any area of your life, especially business.

 How do you show up as your real self on social media?

Becky: So, as you’re talking about that, that makes a lot of sense to me. But I know that there is this kind of overall perception people have that social media, just in its essence is inauthentic. So, I’ve heard people say everyone only puts their happiest pictures on Instagram, or they only put their best foot forward when they show up on social media channels. So for some authors that I meet, they’re reluctant to get involved in using social media as a means of sharing their messages, because they feel like the channels themselves lend themselves to the opposite of authenticity. Would you have some tips for people who want to show up as their real selves on social media? And how do you navigate that belief or assumption that people think they can only share what is happy and good in their lives on social media?

Jenn: That’s such a good question. The authors that I work with all own businesses and the majority of them are also public speakers. There’s a couple of outliers that may not be public speaking, but the majority have businesses. And they’re thought leaders in their space, which is a lot of the reason why they wrote their books. So, they can kind of expand their reach, and scale what they’re doing.

There is one author, in particular, and I will not say her name, specifically, but I have known her for a very long time. We have worked together well before working on her book together, and I constantly wanted to strangle her because I was like, nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows the real you and it’s driving me absolutely crazy, because I know the real you. We’re friends, we work together, we have this long history together. I know other people have that same fondness of who you are as a person, but when you’re on social media, you are so washed down and so watered down for who you are, nobody can really connect and relate with you because no one really knows anything about you. It was a multiyear dragging her out of her comfort zone and out of her shell, convincing her that this was the right thing to do. And in doing so, I was able to convince her to start sharing personal details about herself. I was like, I’m not going to really throw you into the deep end and make you really make a 180 and start sharing things that seem so out of your comfort zone. I think it would be a little bit alarming to an audience to have like this very, kind of robotic way and like very impersonal way, and then suddenly, you’re like, oh, wow, they’re sharing information that I don’t know if I should actually know. I really started to coach her and guide her into doing that.

One of the biggest posts that blew up on her platform was, I don’t know if it was an anniversary post, or if it was a Valentine’s Day thing, but it was this love letter that she had written to her spouse that previously she never really talked about. I had to really force her to talk about her spouse and it was beautiful. It had a bunch of photos of the two of them together. They’ve been together for a long time and it was one of the most liked, commented, shared posts, because it was so authentically who she was, and everyone that’s worked with her or worked around her was like, finally, she’s finally showing up as the person that we know her to be. At the same time, that was bringing in other people who were like, “Oh, wow, who is this person? I don’t even realize it’s the same page that I previously liked.” And that was like the foundation because it gave her the validation to say, wow, when I do share something personal, positive engagement occurs. So with that little push got her more comfortable actually sharing details about her life that are not necessarily directly tied to what she does for business and it was like a huge aha lightbulb moment for her.

 What are the benefits of showing up with authenticity?

Becky: What a powerful story, Jen. I appreciate you sharing that. I’ve had a similar experience in partnering with clients, and that idea of showing up is very closely connected to authenticity. It’s stupid and cliche by now, but I often will tell clients the magic happens when you show up. So, let’s talk a little bit more about that. Jen, what do you think are some other benefits of showing up with authenticity? Because of the story you just referenced, when you show up with authenticity, you open this possibility that people can connect with you in a new way or remember you in a new way. What else do you see as a benefit of showing up with authenticity?

Jenn: To me the biggest benefits, in addition to what I had already said about, just the amount of mental energy that you’re draining by not being who you are, where you want to be, is from a Marketing 101 perspective. That we don’t want to reach everybody. We don’t want to capture every possible person. Every possible person on the earth is not a client of mine and they’re not a client of yours. So what we want to do is we want to either attract them or we want to repel them, and by being authentically who you are, you are going to do one of those two things. I think a lot of people are afraid to have a message that repels somebody. At the end of the day, that is absolutely what you want to do. Because you don’t want to be wasting your time, resources, energy, or efforts trying to bring in a client, that is not going to be somebody that you’re going to enjoy serving to begin with. I think from just that standpoint, the more authentic we are, and to me I’m always I’m like, what you see is what you get. Like I said before, how you and I are right now, is exactly how I am with any other interaction I’m going to have today, because it’s easier for me. But also people will either like me, or they won’t. And that’s a beautiful thing because you don’t want to serve everyone. 

From a marketing and messaging standpoint, I have it in my marketing and messaging all over the place that we serve the underrepresented voices most often, which oftentimes are LGBTQ people. They’re people of color, people with disabilities, and that’s very intentional because, as a queer woman myself, I don’t want to work with someone who doesn’t like me based on who I love. So the more I can be outspoken about that, the more I’m going to repel. That audience is not going to want to do business with me. I think when we’re talking about sexual orientation, gender, identity, race, those are like the big things. But there are other things, maybe environmentally conscious, like you don’t want to work with people who don’t have the environment front and center. So, if you are authentically you and the environment is something you’re really passionate about, talking about it, sharing it, being true to who you are in all those areas, it’s going to repel the people who could care less about the environment. So, you see what I’m saying, does that make sense?

Becky: Well, yes, and it’s a really interesting take on it, Jen, that I’ve never thought of before, that one of the benefits of showing up with authenticity is it helps people figure out if we’re the right fit for them. It sounds a little counterintuitive that we would create an online presence on purpose, to repel the people who aren’t our people, but it’s so brilliant. So the downside is, if we’re not clear about who we are and what we value, then it’s not easy for people to decide whether or not we’re the type of organization that they want to work with?

Jenn: Yeah, and I think that comes down to the products and the services that we offer. It comes down to who we are as people. It comes down to who our team is, as people. And all of those are factors in whether somebody wants to do business with us. I think from just a clarity standpoint, the clearer we are on who we are, who we want to be doing business with, and what we offer, all of those things in conjunction with each other are really what makes somebody say, “Yeah, I want to do business with her” or “Oh, hell, no, I want nothing to do with that.” And either of those scenarios is a good scenario because then you’re not wasting extra kind of time and energy from a business development standpoint on people who just don’t fundamentally like you.

Becky: That is so helpful, Jen. For those of you who are listening, I’d be curious what action steps you can take away from this. So, if you have been in a place where you’ve hesitated to show up authentically, or there’s been a hesitation to share the details of who you are as a person, I hope that this is inspiring you to consider how you might choose to show up with more authenticity.

 What are some tips for increasing authenticity in how we show up online?

Becky: Jen, I want to circle back to an earlier part of the conversation when we were talking about how social media channels, in and of themselves, kind of fuel this pressure to be bigger than we are or better than we are or happier than we are. So, what do you think about sharing the more difficult things in our lives? And how can we be sure that we’re doing that in an authentic way as well? 

Jenn: Another really good question. The people that I know, the people that I follow, and the people that I respect, I personally find that they share a balance of both of those things. I would say it’s probably like a two-thirds situation where two-thirds of the time it’s something positive, uplifting, exciting, some accomplishments they’ve recently received and then there’s that third of the time, where it’s like, I’m having a crap day and here are all the reasons why. I feel like social media has been around for a long time. At this point, I feel like it’s still treated as if it’s like the newest thing. But in reality, it is not the newest thing at all.

There are new platforms, there are new ways of doing things, but the idea of social media is not new, and I think we’re still all operating from that. When it first came out, the standpoint of, “if I post on here, it has to be all of the happy positive things,” like that’s all only what people are looking for. I think there’s a balance because you do have those people who are on social media platforms, and all they do is complain and you just you snooze them because you want nothing, like okay, enough already, you’re having a rough day. But the people who have that balance, where most of the time they’re uplifting and positive, and then occasionally they put a post in there like, listen my business isn’t doing great right now, because this happened and this happened or I had to let go of an employee because of this happening, or this happening, or whatever, those authentic, real-time things have been happening, even if it’s familial issues, talking about those things, a lot of times those posts are the ones that get really really high engagement.

I know for me, personally, I have the Publish Your Purpose pages, and all the different places, and then I have me and all the different places. I will intentionally share just to me, I like to highlight just entertaining stories of my child saying the most ridiculous things to me on a regular basis because he’s smarter than his years. But then he says things, and I’m like, that’s really profound and so there’s like that happy uplifting side of things. But just the other day, he got Student of the Month, which I’m so proud of him for, but in what I was writing about, about him being student of the month, I also address the fact that he has debilitating anxiety, like severe anxiety, where it is an uphill battle every single day of his life to function on a basic level. So my point in sharing that was like, hey, you can still have all of these struggles and you can still work through these struggles, and you can still be recognized for your ability to work through those struggles. And I could have just done what every mom does, and like, “Hey my child’s amazing, they got student of the month,” and let everybody cheer. But I was like, no, this is an opportunity to show up and let people into that struggle that we have on a daily basis around his anxiety. What that does in my world, in someone who’s listening, and to this world, is that when I’m talking to somebody, or maybe they happen to see that post, or maybe they’re listening to this, and they go read the post, they’re going to know something about me that I couldn’t have put in the marketing material. They’re going to know something about me in the sense that I know how to work with people that have mental health challenges of any kind. Because I deal with this on a day to day basis. 

And so that’s the really cool part about being authentic too, is that you’re letting people into the really rough, jagged inside and edges of who you are. But it also shows who you are and what you’re capable of. So if we’re looking at publishing professionals side by side, one person has this polish, “I’m amazing, I don’t do anything wrong” persona, and then you have the other person who’s like, “listen stuff happens and I’m dealing with this mental health crisis at home.” And the person that’s debating like, who do I go with? They’re going to explore the person who has a similar challenge that they have, rather than that person who’s looking perfect. So I think that’s huge.

Becky: So what you’re saying is that when we let people into the struggles that we have, we become more accessible to them. We become more relatable to them because none of us feel like that polished one. 

What are some choices authors or thought leaders have in expressing their authenticity through social media?

Becky: I want to wrap up by talking about the choices that we have, as it relates to showing up with authenticity, because there may be someone listening who says, “That sounds great, but I can’t talk about XYZ on my social media channels as a business person.” So Jen, what would you say to someone who has some areas of their life that they want to wall off from social sharing? Is it still possible to show up with authenticity even when we make choices to keep some topics quiet?

Jenn: I think that’s a tough question. I think without getting into political beliefs, I think the politics of what’s happening right now, in and of themselves, make that really difficult for people because there could be people that you look at, and you’re like, “wow, we’re really aligned, we have all these great things in common,” and then all of a sudden, they post something that’s in opposition to what your political views are. Then suddenly, people make very sweeping decisions about who that person is, without really spending the time on like, “Hey, that was somebody that I really respected and loved prior to knowing this information about them. What is it about knowing this that made me change?” I’m being very neutral about this but I think that’s where it can get really challenging. So I think politics is something that generally speaking, that’s not something that you need to talk about. That’s not something that you need to bring into any of your social media dialogues and I don’t think you’re being inauthentic by not doing that. I think you’re being respectful by not doing that. 

You could also probably put religion into that same category, because regardless of whether you’re spiritual, where you are on any religious spectrum, they’re still going to be people that have a knee-jerk reaction to who you are, what you believe in, etc. So again, I don’t necessarily think unless that’s baked into what you’re writing about, what you’re speaking about, what your business is about, I don’t think that necessarily has to be on social media either. 

I think if I were to say here’s a formula to follow or steps to think about it would be to make a list. So start by making a list of the things that you’re passionate about, it could include that you’re passionate about politics, and it could include that you’re passionate about your religion, but you really just make that list of those areas that you’re passionate about. And then kind of go through with a red pen and cross out the ones that really aren’t going to further your objectives. Many of them might not actually further your objectives, I think you’re always safe sharing about your significant other, I think you’re always safe sharing about pets, sharing about children, like those are very safe. Just sharing about your pets and children alone can really help people get to know who you are on a deeper level and you don’t have to go into any of the political, religious, any of those hot topic issues that are going to get anybody burned by doing it, unless you’ve been doing it all along, then you’re fine. But you don’t want to have all of the things walled off and now you’re like, “Okay, I’m gonna make a beat, I’m gonna put my toe in this pond of sharing a little more about myself,” certainly do not go into the hot topic area, just post a picture of your cat, just start small, and like really work your way into it.

Action Steps

Becky: That’s really helpful advice. So I want to wrap up this episode, the way that we do all of our episodes, because this podcast is called the book marketing action podcast. So I’m wondering, Jen, if you could identify a couple of action steps that authors could take today to increase their authenticity on social media.

Jenn:

I’m going to go back to the thing I had just said, so I would start with a list. I think that’s step one action. Step one is just start with a list of the things that you are already comfortable with talking about, like just do a spreadsheet that has some columns in it, things that you already talked about, you’re comfortable with things that you are super passionate about. Then make that third column, the things that you will actually start to do, and don’t go hog wild and go all in right now. Just one step at a time, say, “All right, this week, I’m just going to post a picture of my animal and just see what happens.” See what people say, and if we’re talking about book marketing, grab your book, put your pets in front of your book, the book behind your pet, do something with your pet. Right? We have an author who wrote a book called What Are You Waiting For?: You Don’t Have 9 Lives! and it’s very much like Who Moved My Cheese? but she’s using her cat as the way to tell the story. And my cat one day just hopped up on my desk and had his head like peeking behind the cover of her book and almost like in the same way that the cat on the book looked. I was like this is like the best photo op and I wasn’t even staging it. Now she uses it in all of her marketing, because it’s a tie in, but even if your book is a business book, you could be like, “Wow, look at who else is enjoying this book today.” You can be really light hearted about it. And it doesn’t have to be this big endeavor, and then just see what happens, see how people are kind of reacting to it, then you can make that decision of like, “Okay, what is my plan from here.” It’s almost like doing an assessment, you kind of assessed what you’re not sharing and what you are sharing, and you’ll decide what you’re comfortable with, and then deciding what platform. So step two to me would be deciding what platforms you’re willing to share personal stuff on, because LinkedIn is not the best place to be sharing personal information. So if you have a Facebook, or an Instagram, that’s where you should be really doing that personal sharing, but doesn’t mean that you can’t share a little bit of personal stuff on LinkedIn here and there. But they’re very different strategies and very different audiences. So then it’s a matter of saying, alright, if I want to start sharing these things, on what platform am I going to do that. And so you can kind of decide from there, I think just starting with those two steps alone can be really, really helpful.

Becky: Those are really great next steps. If you’re listening today, and you decide to try them, I’d love to hear what you come up with. 

ResourcesConnect with Publish Your Purpose Press on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and Twitter. Follow Jenn T. Grace on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram.  Learn more about Jenn on her website here. Click here to learn more about Publish Your Purpose Press. Check out Jenn’s memoir, House on Fire, here. 

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here for our free resources. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. 

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 46: Showing up authentically online appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 45: Measuring Results from Social Media

Photo by merfin / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of social media. In this episode, we are joined by our client Lisa Fain, CEO of Center for Mentoring Excellence. 

About Lisa Fain

Becky: Lisa, as we dive in today, I’d love to start by letting you tell our listeners about your book and your work in the world.

Lisa: I am the co-author with Lois Zachary of Bridging Differences for Better Mentoring, which came out in February of 2020. It’s really about how you take your mentoring relationships and leverage differences in your mentoring relationships and it relates to my work. I’m the CEO of the Center for Mentoring Excellence, we work with organizations, large and small, all over the globe to help them create more inclusive cultures and better leaders through mentoring.

Becky: My team and I have loved working with you and through the launch of the book, and then also on marketing your brand and your business. I’m sure that we’ll touch on some of that today. 

What has your journey been with using social media? 

Becky: Lisa, we have not known each other on your whole journey. So I would love to start at the beginning. Tell me about your journey in using social media channels, how you got started, and how you found your way in using social media to get the word out about your work.

Lisa: I actually started my professional journey solo. After my corporate career as a coach, I was doing some moonlighting as a life and executive coach and I sort of dipped my toe into the social media water by just putting some feelers out on Facebook and a little bit on LinkedIn. Instagram was the great unknown for me, and certainly couldn’t even imagine being on YouTube. There was no strategy to it, it was if something came to me, or I had an announcement, I’d sort of let my friends know and haphazard effort gets haphazard results. So sometimes I would post a video that said something somewhat brilliant and get some good results and engagement, but it never really translated into anything for my coaching business. 

When I moved into Center for Mentoring Excellence, we were doing what I would call a sort of curation. We would collect articles on the topic of mentoring and push them out through LinkedIn and Facebook, a little bit through Twitter. The following that we built was really small. Those people were who we knew well, who really already loved us, but there was never any action, we never had any calls to action at all. We never thought about it strategically, if there was, I think once a week one of us on the team would look for articles related to mentoring and then send it out to an external social media person and that was about it. Then I made a change to an external social media person who had a different vision than my vision. She had a vision of who I was, who Lisa Fain was, personally. However, Center for Mentoring Excellence really wasn’t quite as aligned with where I wanted to be. We did a little more curation there. We did a LinkedIn group called Bold Broads, which I’m actually really proud of, it’s about collecting stories of bold women and that was about it. Again, we weren’t measuring the return, we weren’t able to see what happened. 

When I engaged with Weaving Influence, as a result, both with the book campaign and afterward, we really started to see something happen. I would say probably once or twice a month, I get a client that says I saw you on LinkedIn or I heard about you on Twitter, and the strategy really has made a difference for the business.

Did you see results from your long-term investment or a strategic approach? 

Becky: Wow. That’s really interesting. Lisa, what I’m hearing is that you tried a bunch of different approaches and when you decided to become strategic, you began to see results. When I hear that, I’m super curious, because I have a couple of biases about social media use, and one of them is that it does take a long time to get results. So I don’t know that there’s any way of knowing, but I wonder if your results came because of a strategic approach or because you invested long enough to get the results or possibly both. Do you have any sense of that?

Lisa: I think it could’ve been that we were getting results, but we weren’t measuring anything. Right? So if you were to have asked me then, even how many followers I had at any particular social media channel, I would have to look it up. I’m not even sure I would have known where to look it up, and or what it meant, right? Or what my engagement was, or anything like that. So it wasn’t until I actually started paying attention to the numbers. I think there’s a self-fulfilling prophecy there a little bit, Becky, right? Some of it is the investment and some of it is the intentionality of this particular metric is something that I want to grow. And also before we were “peanut buttering” all over the social media platforms; “peanut buttering” meaning, you spread an even layer across all of the social media platforms without really choosing which to do or which not to do. Once I realized that my people are on LinkedIn, and I actually get a lot of energy from LinkedIn, and we started to focus on LinkedIn, but that doesn’t mean I don’t post on Facebook and do well. But on my personal page, I post different stuff. Sometimes there’s a crossover, but most of the time, my heart is with my intimate peeps on Facebook, and my heart of my business is on LinkedIn and Twitter. That’s really made a big difference as well.

Becky: So getting clarity about the channels where you’re most likely to connect with your target audiences, including people who might hire you, and then also having intentionality about not only paying attention to results, but measuring results and looking for results.

Lisa: Yeah, 100%!

Becky: That’s hugely powerful, it seems to me like what you’re saying is, you’re not going to get results using social media unless you’re looking for them.

Lisa: Exactly. I think part of it also is figuring out what matters, right? I sort of stopped trying to follow the models of people who I admire, but I didn’t even know what their back end was and what they wanted, and starting to realize what it was that I thought mattered, right? And using my own voice as I started to work with an external team, but they were able to help me reflect back on my own voice, which really made a big difference.

What was the best way to invest your time, energy & money with social media?

Becky: Let’s pause and talk about that for a moment. So you’re talking about outsourcing the execution and implementation of your social to our agency, in this case. How did you come to a decision that that was the best way for you to invest your time, energy, and money with social?

Lisa: Yeah, I think part of it is I started thinking about what do I dread doing? I can’t even tell you the number of times I would put on my calendar for the first half an hour or hour of the day, social, right. I might as well have written in those letters that look like a horror film, where they’re like bleeding up and down the page, because it was just that feeling to me, like what does that mean? It seems so big, and I kept putting it off, and yet, I knew I had good things to say, and I had a message that had to get out there. So one is I just kind of paid attention to where my energy went, and where it didn’t go. The other is that I helped people develop a strategy for a living and I recognized the value of strategy. When I started to look at the amount of time and frustration that I was putting into something that was important to me, but not strategic, that I really needed help in developing that strategy. So it was kind of a combination of two things. I have ambitious growth plans and I knew that social media was a key to those plans I really wasn’t leveraging.

What has been most challenging?

Becky: That’s so helpful and it’s interesting because I think if I showed up at work, and I had time blocked for social, I get excited about having that time blocked. So I think there are differences in how we each perceive and approach the use of social media. So Lisa, tell me what has been most challenging for you as it relates to discovering what works for you as an author and as a business owner in using social media?

Lisa: Calling out the stuff that’s off-brand. Not on my personal Facebook, my personal Facebook, I do what I want and I talk about the things that I want. I have a social action bent in my own personal life that I talk about a lot on Facebook, and to the extent that it relates to creating inclusive work environments, I’ll talk about that. But I think really thinking about what it is that makes me and our business stand out and be unique and focusing on that, that was something that I didn’t do a great job of on my own. But I think once I narrowed my voice, and I was so afraid of it honestly, Becky, because I was afraid of excluding people and limiting myself from all potential opportunities. But once I started to narrow what it was I wanted my voice to be, our voice as a business to be, then I was able to. I mean, it was hard and it was also pretty instrumental in making the shift.

Stepping outside your comfort zone

Becky: So at least I remember a conversation that we had once about how using social has challenged you to step out of some comfort zones, and I can remember, even the day you posted a photo of yourself with the keynote speech on your Facebook. Do you remember that? Tell me about that.

Lisa: Yeah, that is probably what the answer should have been to the last question. There wasn’t anything wrong with the answer I gave, but the short answer is, I do a lot of speaking. I love speaking. I get a lot of energy from speaking. I really didn’t like the idea of this being about me, right, even though, I love speaking, because I love the message. I love speaking because I love talking about the power of mentoring and the power of creating inclusive environments. I don’t love speaking because it’s about being up on stage, right? And taking a picture of myself posting as a keynote speaker felt like I was waving my hand like, “Hey, pay attention to me.” Right? It just felt so inauthentic. I think you told me or somebody told me that this is actually about the message and that I’m the vehicle to the message. So that really was a big, big threshold moment for me.

Becky: I was so happy to see it. Because one of the things I often coach people about is that social media really is about becoming memorable, and so by posting the photo of yourself speaking, you could become memorable to people. 

One of the things that are important to me about social media, Lisa, is this idea of becoming memorable. When you can take a step out and risk sharing a photo that feels a bit uncomfortable or is not really within what you’d prefer to share, you increase the opportunity that you can become memorable for that thing that you’re doing. So speakers who share photos of themselves speaking, remind people that they’re available to speak. And so I’m so glad that you’ve been willing to walk on the edge of it that way, Lisa.

Lisa: Well, I’ve appreciated the push.

What do you expect from your investment in social media?

Becky: Let’s talk a little bit about what you expect from your investment in social media, Lisa, because you did mention that you’re ambitious, you have growth goals for your company. So what part does social media play in your ambition and growth goals?

Lisa: Yeah, part of what we want to be at the Center for Mentoring Excellence is really the go-to thought leader or expert on the subject of mentoring. And so I really see social media as the window into that opportunity. And so creating that visibility is really important. Mentoring is a really important tool that sometimes people don’t think about, and if they’re reminded about the presence of mentoring as a solution, they can think, “Oh, I know somebody who’s into that, I should contact Center for Mentoring Excellence.” I think social media is a great vehicle that way, as long as I continue to add value. And so I really view social media as a vehicle to get some value out. I subscribe to this model, “give, give, get”. Where you give twice as much out there than you expect to get in return. Probably “give, give, give, get” in all honesty. Sometimes it’s three times as much. And so I’ve used social media as a way to get the value out there of my ideas, our business’s ideas, and the importance of mentoring in general.

What are some results & benefits you’ve seen from using social media?

Becky: I love that Lisa, and I’m wondering if you could share with us some results and benefits you’ve seen from using social media for those who might be a bit reluctant or unsure that social media can bring about business results.

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, it’s a simple answer, but it’s a true answer, which is we’ve gotten a ton of clients. I would say, one or two potential clients a month reach out and say, “I saw you on LinkedIn,” or “I saw you on Twitter,” or “Somebody forwarded me the YouTube link of you speaking, can we talk?” And of course, not everyone results in business, but it’s okay. It’s really about, kind of, getting the word out. So that happens pretty frequently.

And the other piece is, I feel like I have become much more connected to other people in my field, and gotten lots of good ideas and insight from the connections that happen through social media. Somebody follows you, you follow them back and you learn about a whole new leadership theory. Or I learned about somebody who is doing mentoring in a youth context, on an international scale, and that gives me an idea for an article I want to write or something I want to record. So it’s not just the value of the connection in the business, it’s also the value of the thoughts and the ideas that I can then translate into putting more value out so I can get more value back. So I can put more value out so I can make more of an impact. All of those things, it really is a cycle.

Action Steps

Becky: That is so clear and I appreciate you sharing it, Lisa. So at the end of every episode of the book marketing action podcast, we always want to give one or two immediate steps that people who are listening could implement as a result of what they’ve heard today. So I’m wondering, Lisa, if you can recommend an action step or two that our listeners can implement, to be able to reach more people with their ideas?

Lisa: 

The first one is to look out for that peanut butter, see where are you spreading things evenly, where they don’t get even results. So an example that I use, I was putting the same effort into all of these social media platforms, and they weren’t all getting results. So the first action is, look out for where you’re getting results, and put your action where you’re getting results. And then the second thing is to watch out for your voice. Make sure it’s your voice, make sure it’s your message. It’s not that you can’t amplify other people’s messages, but if you do that, make sure that they’re consistent with your own.ResourcesLearn more about Lisa Fain and Center for Mentoring Excellence, here. Connect with Lisa on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Follow Center for Mentoring Excellence on Facebook and Twitter. Subscribe to Lisa’s YouTube channel here. 

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 45: Measuring Results from Social Media appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 44: An author’s perspective on social media

Photo by rawpixel / 123rf.com

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of social media. And today I have a very special guest, an award-winning entrepreneur, speaker, diversity and inclusion consultant, and author, Jennifer Brown.

About Jennifer Brown

Becky: Before we dive in, Jennifer, I hope you’ll take a moment to tell our listeners about yourself, your books, and your work in the world.

Jennifer: I have been in the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion space for over a decade. I’ve had my own company in the space. We originally started as a leadership development firm and a team-building firm before I knew DEI was a thing, and lo and behold we have built the team. Now we get to work with mainly Fortune 1000 companies and large organizations, to help them not only build their DEI strategies top-down, but do that training and education piece that supports that strategy. We also have a specialization in diversity network – employee resource groups and affinity groups of all kinds. I keynote a lot. I have two books, the first book is called Inclusion: Diversity, The New Workplace & The Will To Change from 2017, and then the second is How to Be an Inclusive Leader: Your Role in Creating Cultures of Belonging Where Everyone Can Thrive, which just came out in 2019, right before 2020 shut us down and, subsequently, blew up in terms of the important and difficult year that it was. It’s been a wild ride to be in this field, and in this work, and in this conversation, but it’s not new to us, we’ve been in it for a very, very long time, even though the topic may be, I think, enjoying the most appreciation, motivation, and appetite that we’ve ever experienced. 

How has social media impacted your work?

Becky: I agree with you, Jennifer, it is great to see organizations focusing more on these important topics related to DEI. I’m curious, you’ve been in the space for a while and I know from having watched your journey that you are quite active in leveraging social media, to share your important ideas in the world. So I’d love to hear about your journey in using social media channels. As you started your company and brought your books to market, what important role have social media channels played in your reaching audiences with your work?

Jennifer: Yes, we’ve been very Twitter forward. I do have the handle on twitter @jenniferbrown, believe it or not, which should signal that it was a very long time ago that I created it. Somehow even not being terribly technology savvy, I figured Twitter out early on and, honestly, it was an incredible place. The hashtags diversity, inclusion, and equity, the very beginner hashtags of the conversation, allowed you to locate other practitioners and people internally doing the work. So it was a way to see and be seen, find each other and build community, and swap best practices, which in my world, is so critical. You can’t learn DEI in a book, really, it’s one of the challenges. One of the beautiful things about the field is that the body of knowledge lives in all of us and it’s constantly evolving.

As a result, I think there is a need to connect to other practitioners and advocates and understand what they’re doing. And the fact that everybody’s so generous, open, and transparent about what we do, means that we are constantly collaborating across industries. You would think that competitors wouldn’t speak to each other, but we all stay in touch with each other. We all support each other’s work. For me, social media is the opposite of selfish, it is the pouring into the field and into the conversation and literally learning to use your platform that you’ve built to share it with others. We still do that to this day, in fact, I probably promote way more things other people are doing than I do for what we’re doing, or at least, it’s probably 50/50 and others do the same for us. It’s been so important to be able to observe, learn, and listen in on conversations that are happening.

One of the major first steps is listening, learning, observing, and putting yourself in locations, either physical or virtual, where you are not obstruct, you’re not intruding, but you are observing, you’re picking up language, you’re listening, you’re learning new frameworks. You’re educating yourself on history that was never taught. You are literally witnessing people find their voice in all of their intersectionality. That is happening in social media in such a unique way and in a very intimate way. So it’s allowed me to kind of chart the landscape, if you will, as somebody who teaches about so many different diversity dimensions, many of which aren’t my lived experience. I have to know a little about a lot of things and my goal is to learn a lot and know a lot about a lot of things, right? Because that just makes me more effective. So there’s really no other place you can do that, that’s better than social media.

How can I learn from others using social media?

Becky: This is a really interesting perspective, Jennifer, and one that I haven’t spoken about on the podcast yet. So I’m wondering if you could tell those who might be listening who aren’t acquainted with this idea of social media as a listening and learning tool, iIn what way they might actually go about this? If I’m an author who’s listening, and I’ve used social media primarily as a place to share what I want to share with others, what might it look like for me to explore or discover a means of listening and learning on Twitter, for example, or LinkedIn?

Jennifer: Yeah, and people misunderstand, or they’re not using the full capacity of these tools, right? When people say, “why would anybody care what I had for breakfast?”, I’m like, okay, come back to me when you really want to engage. It’s as much of pushing out content but it’s a pull too. So be thinking about yourself as this filter through which knowledge comes and goes.

I would really recommend mapping out, let’s call it your competitive landscape, shared market, shared conversation, or your shared interests and passions. You find your community online, and then you locate the biggest influencers in that field. What I would do, as an author, is I would want to know all the influencers in that field and want to know the loudest voices with the biggest followings with the most shares.

Also, who’s kind of out in front using their voice and really being very proactive? There’s no one answer, I’m a bit more of a tweeter than I am a sort of original shares person. There are some people that are extremely comfortable with the modality and have so much to say and write really long threads. I love being a reader of those threads, those are really important. They’re Twitter’s version of a deep-dive right into more of a blog. So I think to retweet things you value, give some love and appreciation to people who are really using the platform to educate and really putting themselves out there. 

Then like I said, find people to promote. I promote my competitor’s stuff all the time. I push it out, I give a signal boost, I comment on things so I’ll say, “don’t miss this,” “make sure to make time for this,” or “put this in your calendar,” because I know people are looking to me to point them somewhere. When you get to my level, you’ve got eyeballs watching you and you get to direct those eyeballs, which is so cool. 

I would also find your community of interest. But I also think there are parallel communities. For me, the adjacent communities that I keep an eye on are HR or talent management, corporate social responsibility, or technology, in terms of work from home and virtual work. I think of it like a bull’s eye where the most relevant is the inside ring and then the concentric circles that go out from there are the communities I dabble in. I keep an eye on or I go there to also get my name into those concentric rings as well, because those are my current and future bigger audiences as well. 

I also go there to tune in to different frequencies of what people are talking about. What are the big issues over there? What’s the latest and greatest article and XYZ and who’s sharing it? So it’s just this way of having your finger on the pulse. I think that these days, the news and the research are changing and the conversation, vocabulary, and every single field are changing so quickly. I think any professional has to sort of deal with that and some of us may be less or more comfortable with that. I think it’s incumbent of us in this ever-changing, chaotic, unpredictable world, as thought leaders, we all should, I think, be striving to be comfortable with that. As authors, whether you do that very loudly, or you do that quietly or something in between, whatever feels really authentic for you. It’s incumbent on anyone that wants that striving to have that voice, to have that finger on the pulse. I know everything that’s in the New York Times before I read it, and I know they’re dynamically updating their stories, but I know about it from Twitter, and what’s trending on Twitter, or what’s being talked about on LinkedIn, etc. So I know for me, my clients look to me to have that and be ahead of it. I want time to kind of think about it, process it, and formulate my opinions on things because I inevitably will be asked, so I would imagine a lot of listeners could probably relate to that.

Becky: So social media is your way to stay in the moment, up to speed, and ahead of the curve on the learning that’s happening in your spaces.

Jennifer: That’s right!

How has your perspective changed? 

Becky: How has your perspective, or your practices related to social media, changed over the years since you first got started?

Jennifer: Well, I have a team now, which is so wonderful. So I don’t need to be taking it all the way from the sharing of an article to the tagging and finding people’s handles so that we can make sure we’re acknowledging the correct people that are related to something like that, takes a lot of legwork. So to have a team, enables us to share just the volume of what we can get out is better and higher. So that has changed. It used to just be me. And I don’t have as much time to spend kind of combing through what’s happening on Twitter today. What are people sharing? What are my favorite voices talking about? So I think that’s changed. And hence the need, I think, for the team to just be monitoring it. Having people be able to share in your voice is something that when you start to scale, or if you decide to scale your business, we all wrestle with, and finding somebody who kind of picks out the nuggets of things and knows what you would pick out and knows how to do that when you don’t have time to, it’s difficult. I mean, you could argue it might be teachable, it may not really be learnable, because it’s very instinctual as well. So it’s been interesting, I guess what I’m talking about is like scaling yourself, and how you can be everywhere all the time. 

On LinkedIn, because we haven’t talked about LinkedIn too much, we really use it a lot. I have a team that helps push out to all of our new connections, my introductions. I want to let people know where they can find out more about us. We’ve got 30,000 connections on LinkedIn, and actually, we’re capped at 30, we can’t figure out how to get over it. So if anyone’s listening to this and knows, we literally have to sort of disconnect it from a bunch of people in order to make more room to get active people. But LinkedIn, I find is a more stable, slow-moving, corporate kind of audience for us, which is actually I think more of a business driver, given we’re a consulting firm that mainly is a B2B firm, working with large organizations. LinkedIn is where that lives all day long. So I would say having the arms and legs to aggressively connect with people in your space again, and sharing out and doing kind of the same things I talked about on Twitter is really critical on LinkedIn as well. I love the platform for different reasons. It’s fascinating to see who works at what company. What are they doing? I don’t think there’s as much sharing on Twitter about the best practices because there’s just no room to do it. But you can do much more long-form examples on LinkedIn and get much more into the weeds. You could do LinkedIn lives, which I know a lot of us are starting to do.

StreamYard allows you to simultaneously broadcast across many different platforms. And do Q&A real-time, which is really fun. I think you could do that on Instagram too, of course, and even Clubhouse is another modality we’ve been exploring. There are some diverse conversations going on in there, which is purely audio. So if you don’t know about Clubhouse, definitely look into it. 

We’re constantly thinking about, especially in our outgoing messages or outbound messages on LinkedIn, thinking about how few characters can we describe something that might be interesting to somebody, whether it’s an upcoming online program we’re running, etc. 

One thing we started to do is a weekly call back in March of 2020 and it’s still going. Last week, I had 350 people on the call, so it grew and grew and grew. Now it’s become like a destination for gathering practitioners and advocates to talk about what’s new in the field, and the chat is wild. The chat, when you print it out from an hour, it’s 20 pages single spaced, there are links and best practices and offers to connect and benchmark. And like I was saying earlier, there are these unmet appetites, I think, in each of our fields. And we’re not just marketers, but really conveners, I think of myself as a space holder, and a convener and a platform, and a facilitator. And so when we started the calls, it was just so great with no plan at all, just to bring kind of friends on and have them, guests, with me, and react to comments and questions in the chat. So sharing that call every week on LinkedIn and on Twitter, and getting sort of our marketing geared up so that we have our guests ahead of time, and we have something to share that’s polished and we’ve evolved into that. The team has evolved into being able to work ahead of schedule, and we now have guests booked out every week until late March. But for a while, we were winging it. So I think my advice to authors is to jump in and start to hold something regular that people can come and discuss the thought leadership, whether it’s yours or theirs or something in between that you’ve co-created. And then it gives you something to then market that feels like you’re adding value versus something you’re trying to sell. We don’t charge for it, it’s just a gathering. And it’s just been so amazing to stay connected to my community in that way through a pandemic, which grounded all of us. And yet the work continued and changed so rapidly going through George Floyd and the social justice movement of last summer and the importance, even more of having our finger on the pulse because we’re the ones that were being asked to respond. So it’s been an enormous learning experience, we have been greatly enriched by those calls. I think it’s shifted our business, honestly, to sort of have that ear to the ground that we have now and what we’re able to offer in terms of insights. 

What’s the most important way to show up?

Becky: That sounds really, really powerful, Jennifer. I’m curious, you mentioned scaling and involving a team with your social media presence. So before we wrap up the conversation, I would love to hear, is there one part of social media that you think you can’t outsource? So what’s the most important way for you, Jennifer, to show up?

Jennifer: That’s a great question. I don’t know if this is an answer to your question, but I could do a lot more personal shares. I default to the professional shares and the stuff about our capabilities. I think that the piece writing from the heart reacting in real-time to painful news, and God knows we’ve been through a hard year and we’re still in the thick of it, the responding and writing your feelings in any given moment, those kinds of shares get this giant reaction. People love them, they love seeing you unvarnished, really kind of seeing the vulnerability. I know that this is probably not true for everybody, because maybe some listeners are like, “Oh, I have no problem with that stuff. It’s the other stuff Jennifer has been talking about that we don’t do a good job of.”

So I just think there are many kinds of people and some of us are so accustomed to the business side of sharing, and I think have to work on the vulnerability of putting out that vulnerable share that’s not polished, and then others of us are so good at that. There’s a balance of this, where it really feels like Jennifer in the moment. Then there’s other stuff where I think of it more as the firm is sort of sharing it and the machine is getting it out. So it’s that classic dichotomy. And again, I don’t know how many of your listeners have a company and then a personal brand, but it’s this classic dichotomy of and that we straddle, those of us who have both of those things, I even have two websites, and we play around with what that means. It makes sense to us because we have the Jennifer Brown Speaks, which is my personal brand, which is the author, podcaster, thought leader piece where I get to expand and grow and stretch into whatever I want to. And then we have Jennifer Brown Consulting, which is much more of a straightforward place for clients to come who know they need strategy help, and they know they need training help, etc. So it’s just been really interesting to straddle these two things. 

Becky: I definitely think that’s something that we have to wade through. I’m sure that we do have some individual authors listening who really only have to worry about their personal channels, but certainly, others who balance between the corporate image and the personal image. And it’s an important reminder, Jennifer, to take the time to show up.

Action Steps

Becky:  So Jennifer, what are one or two things that we talked about so far today that you hope our listeners will implement?

Jennifer:  Yes, your book is full of riches, right? There are so many quotes in your excerpts. There are adjacent authors, voices, clients, or customers, that you could interview in a format that could be shared on social as well and vice versa. I always have thought a podcast is a beautiful complement to a book, whether it’s you being interviewed or you interviewing, that allows you to bring a new audience to you, and also share platform and voice with others. Insert, where you can, pieces of your own thought leadership, and get the word out about the book in that way. I think that authors have a wonderful opportunity, both on Twitter and LinkedIn, to signal to the people they want to attract. Those powerful invitations to interact with your thought leadership are all people are really looking for, and you’ll find they’ll step through the door, they’ll join you. You might start with one or two, and if you struggle with that I would perhaps recommend you tag friendly friends in there, colleagues, and people who you know will have your back and start an exciting hub of conversation. People will be attracted to that and jump on board and hopefully weigh in. I know we didn’t talk a lot about the sensitivities around those who are not so constructive in terms of their responses, but we do need to start somewhere. And I think controlling your narrative in that way and kind of having that point of view and that very strong place protects us from some of those that will come in and kind of disrupt in a way that’s not productive. But I don’t think we can opt-out just because of fear of that. I think we have to push through because we will attract much more positivity than we will the negativity. So I just wanted to leave everybody with that and make sure that was addressed, too. To summarize:

Your book is full of riches – think about ways to incorporate your book on social media. Podcasting is often a great complement to a book and allows you to share your voice with others.Take a bold step to share and involve others – share ideas from your book or parts of your book on social media and invite others to share in the conversation. These powerful connections are what people are looking for.

Becky: Now that’s a really good reminder. So taking that bold step to share and involve others.

ResourcesLearn more about Jennifer on her personal website. Learn more about Jennifer’s consulting business here.Check out Jennifer’s podcast, The Will to Change.  Discover how you can be a more inclusive leader here. Click here for more information about Jennifer’s first book, Inclusion: Diversity, The New Workplace & The Will To Change . Click here for more information about Jennifer’s second book, How to Be an Inclusive Leader: Your Role in Creating Cultures of Belonging Where Everyone Can Thrive .Follow Jennifer on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 44: An author’s perspective on social media appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 43: How to grow a following on Instagram

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. This month, we are focusing on the topic of social media. And I am happy today to be meeting a new friend, Liz Charlotte Grant.

About Liz Charlotte Grant

Becky: I’m so excited to dive into a conversation with you, Liz, about Instagram. But before we do that, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work? And I know you have a book that’s in the works, so I can’t wait to hear about it.

Liz: Absolutely. I’m a nonfiction writer, so I write essays and memoir, and I’m an editor for The Curator magazine. I have a memoir that’s in process, about losing vision and seeing God’s vision. I started losing vision in my right eye in 2017, and that led me on a journey of asking God for healing, and also seeking healing in my family relationships as well. So a lot of mental health work in there as well. One of my favorite tools for growing my platform is actually Instagram, which is why I wanted to talk with you today.

Becky: Well, I’m really looking forward to it. I have been using Instagram for a while, but I’m sure that I’m going to learn from you, because I noticed that your following is at least four times larger than mine, if not more. Hopefully, by the end of this podcast, we’ll all have some ideas about how to use Instagram more effectively, or about how to get started if we haven’t. 

How does Instagram work? 

Becky: So with that in mind, there may be some folks listening today, Liz, who are beginning beginners and have never used or even looked at Instagram. Could you give us just a quick description of what Instagram is and how it works?

Liz: There are kind of two ways to view Instagram. You can view Instagram on a profile like, kind of a Facebook page, where there’s a grid of photos. So somebody can come onto your profile, click one of those photos, and when they click in, it has a little caption, and they can write comments on the post as well. Then the other way is through a feed. The Instagram app is primarily a phone app that works best on your phone, it’s not really meant to work on your computer. So when you open it on your phone, you see a feed. Anybody that you are following, you will see their photo and their caption from that day. So anytime you open it, you’re going to see new content from creators or writers or friends or family that you follow. So that’s primarily how people experience Instagram, although sometimes they will also go on to your profile and look to see what things you’ve done in the past.

How can an author know if Instagram is a worthwhile platform for their book?

Becky: Thank you so much. That’s a really helpful basic intro. So if authors are listening today, how can they know if Instagram is a worthwhile platform for them for building a community for their book?

Liz: I’m someone who will tell you that Instagram is helpful for anyone. I would say in particular, for folks who are looking to engage some younger audiences. When you’re looking at the demographic for Instagram, about 37% of all internet users use Instagram. So that’s a huge portion of people who are using the internet, and it has especially high engagement rates. Most people who are using the app, visit the site daily or more than daily, so it’s just a lot of constant checking in that people do with this particular social media platform. It has especially high usage among younger adults, between the ages of 18 to 29 16% of online adults are going to use Instagram, and that actually peaks with 18 to 24-year-olds. 

So obviously, for authors or medium grade authors, or even young adults, this is something to pay attention to. But really, you’re looking at about a third of adults in the US using Instagram. So it’s a huge number of people. I would say, for anybody who’s kind of writing toward that audience, Instagram is going to be a great tool. I would also say one of the things that are really important about Instagram to understand is that it is a really great way to learn about your audience. They have wonderful insight tools, and it’s a way to engage with readers in a very daily way. So if you know that your readers are active on social media, it’s a good way to pick up other readers who are interested in content like yours.

Do you have to be a great photographer to use Instagram?

Becky: That’s really helpful. So a couple of things, Liz, I’ve talked to authors before, and they get really overwhelmed, because they say, “Well, I’m not a photographer.” So can you talk to us about this perception that in order to have a successful Instagram profile, you have to be a great photographer, since it’s all photo-based?

Liz: I think one of the great things that I’ve been seeing in recent years is that actually, it’s a lot more important the kind of content you are bringing in writing. When I look at author profiles, there are often different things that they’re doing. So sometimes it’s almost like a sneak peek into your daily life, and you don’t need to be an amazing photographer to get people’s attention in that. I’m talking about pictures with your phone, I’m not talking about a professional camera, or set up, or anything like that. I mean, I’m talking about these kinds of devotional readings, it’s very much things that people are looking for on Instagram. So that’s one of the things for myself that I have really enjoyed. 

On my Instagram, I tend to cover a couple of different things and categories. I tell people as well, this is a helpful way to think about Instagram in order to break it down, so it doesn’t feel so overwhelming. I split my content into different categories, I’m writing about family, I’m writing about my writing work, and then I’m taking photos of food. So literally, I’m just cooking a dish and taking a photo, it’s a point-and-click operation for me. I think when you’re thinking about taking better photos on Instagram, that helps, if your entire platform you’re hoping to build as an author is on Instagram, you might want to get a nice camera to take some photos. But if it’s part of your strategy of continuing to connect with your following that you already have, it can be one other way which you enter their life. I’ve had followers who, and this is the reason that I’ve stepped up my platform, really, because I’ve had followers who said, “your writing hit me right where I was today.” And so to be able to enter their lives in a moment they needed, right then, was very important. So I tend to kind of break it down into categories, which makes it less overwhelming. 

So in particular, in the therapy and devotional space, a lot of folks will post quotations. So you don’t even have to be taking photos, you literally can create a quote, quotation, and one of these free design tools, like Canva, is a great source for that, like a colored background with script. And I think that is another way that writers are kind of incorporating their writing and making it visual. The other thing is, there are lots of poets on there who will just post their short poems in the same way. And so I think there are ways to be creative with the platform where you don’t have to be a visual artist, to make it interesting to people, or for them to want to follow you.

Becky: That’s so helpful, Liz, and I appreciate you drawing out some of those key ideas. For those who might want to get started with Instagram as a result of hearing what we’re talking about today. What’s the best way to start? You mentioned the idea of having categories in mind and authors might choose to incorporate some quotations that they can make easily in Canva. You also talked about how you post your family, your writing work, and food. For me, I post a lot on my Instagram about running, my company, and books that we’re promoting. I used to do a lot of coffee posts. To be honest, I feel like those get a lot of traction. Everybody loves coffee!

How can an author get started?

Becky: In terms of an author listening and wondering even where to begin, how do you come up with the idea for that first post, or what should you do first?

Liz: I mean, I would say, you know, first you need an Instagram account in the first place, right? And that should be your name. I mean, it should be across all your platforms. People should be able to find you easily, right? Mine is Liz Charlotte Grant, that’s it. So nothing too crazy. If you have a developed brand for yourself that’s kind of adjacent, it could be that as well.

I would say also, one of the ways to deal with that platform overwhelm is just to start. Just try it, it doesn’t have to be perfect, or exactly how it will be in a year, right? You can try an experiment, and just see what works. I think just getting on the platform is the main thing. I also encourage folks to get on the platform to just view what other people are doing. I think that’s a good starting place. If someone has never used Instagram before, just log on to the app, and just see what people are doing. I think sometimes, it just helps to sit and look and gather some inspiration that way.

Becky: So potentially, to think about other authors who are in your niche, competitors, or colleagues and see what they’re doing on Instagram?

Liz: Absolutely, absolutely. Then you can start to kind of study and see what is attractive to you. That’s usually a pretty good indicator of something that you could kind of pursue doing for yourself, because, listen, none of us are going to be doing the social media stuff, consistently, if we don’t like what we’re doing. So it really has to kind of come out of a natural outgrowth of interests you already have, otherwise you’re not going to spend any time doing it.

Recommendations to increase your Instagram following?

Becky: That’s a really helpful suggestion. So how about for those authors who might be listening who are already using Instagram? They’re nodding along as you talk about the types of posts to do. What about ideas for growth? You know, how does someone go from a few hundred followers to a few thousand followers?

Liz: 

I think you really have to continue to build a consistent brand. I’m certain that this is something that you guys talk about a lot – your brand is about consistency of message tone. And it’s that look and feel that people can come to expect. I think as you kind of continue to develop your particular brand, you’re going to know, this is what my Instagram account is about, right? Your Instagram account is maybe about therapy, gardening, and running. Or maybe it’s about health and well being, including the spiritual life, right? So you’re going to, over time, continue to hone that message to make it consistent. And then once you’ve done that, your account will become more and more attractive over time to people. As far as increasing the number of followers, I would say the first thing I tell people is really to switch to a business account or a creator account. You can do that in your settings. What that does for you is it gives you insight into the type of people who are following you, the time of day that they’re engaging with your content, the demographics, where they’re located in the country or the world, whether they’re men or women, that kind of thing. That kind of information is very helpful to you to figure out, okay, who is engaging with this? When are they engaging with it? How many are engaging, that gives you really useful information to continue growing your platform, right? If you find, say you start posting pictures of food, and your dog, and your writing, right? Now, all of a sudden, you can look over time in your insights to see, okay, which of those categories are really resonating with your readers, all of a sudden, you have this really data driven insight into your audience. And you get to kind of go into that and say, okay, I see that this thing is really resonating, well I’m going to just post more of that, that’s going to be a tool to help you continue to grow your following. I would also say, making a plan to post consistently is probably the best thing you can do. To continue to get your work seen by people so that they become loyal followers. Once you have those loyal followers, they’re going to share your account organically. You’re not going to have to do anything special to attract more people because they’re going to be saying, “Hey, did you see this I just love this post from this author I follow.” And if you are commenting back to your followers, that’s gonna feel really great to them. They’re gonna feel like this author is accessible to me, they care about me. Hopefully you do care about them, so that’s a genuine message you’re sending and that’s something people love. There’s a lot of other ways, but I would say those are kind of the keys. One other thing that was helpful for me and growing my platform was to use hashtags. Which is sort of like slapping a genre label on your book at the bookstore, right? Like, which shelf does this post belong in? And that’s how I tend to think of it. One of the tools that Instagram has given for growth is once, if you have active engagement, you can actually get into the top posts category in a particular hashtag. When you type in a hashtag, it actually pops up on Instagram to tell you how popular that one is, it has “this many posts.” I’m going to bet for some of us, if a particular hashtag has, say 5000 posts, you’re gonna get some more traction there, and maybe get into that top post spot where more people can see you if they click on that hashtag. Whereas if you picked a hashtag that has a million posts, it’s unlikely that you will get into that top post spot, right? So that’s another method I use. Lastly, I will occasionally promote my posts. You’re gonna pay money to do some marketing at some point, right? So for myself, I have a really small budget, I don’t spend over 20 bucks monthly promoting posts on Instagram, but every so often, if one seems to be getting traction, I will promote that post and just see what kind of insights that gives me, and usually I can reach new followers that way as well.Is the follower to following ratio important? 

Becky: That’s really helpful. So I have kind of a strange question. One of the things I noticed when I looked at your profile is that you are following fewer people than are following you. You have about 4,100 followers and you’re following a little over 1000, if I recall. I know back in the early days, when I was growing my Twitter account, the wisdom at the time was always make sure you are following fewer people than are following you. Because if you follow a whole lot of people, it’s gonna look like you’re just trying to game the system or gain followers, do you think that translates in Instagram? I’m following more people than are following me because I love following people. I see a post that’s interesting, and I don’t pay any attention at all, I just follow whomever I want to follow without watching that ratio. So talk to us a little bit about the ratio on Instagram and how to manage that.

Liz: I think the ratio thing is something to keep in mind. But if you’re posting real stuff, that’s interesting, I don’t think people are going to care. I follow and unfollow people frequently, all the time and the reason is, because I’m interested in their content. I will also follow someone to kind of give them a personal invitation to view my profile in the case that they would like it. I don’t think it’s a strange thing but some people might see that as weird, the ratio that you’re following and unfollowing. If you see the following number creeping up, maybe it’s time to kind of go through and trim a bit. But I don’t think that’s something people are thinking about. That’s just my opinion, though. I think that’s one of those things people have different feelings about it. But I’m kind of like, you know what, it’s for fun. You don’t lose anything by having a high follower count, or high following count. In fact, you get to gain a lot from seeing a lot of different people and understanding people kind of in your sphere. So I think it’s fun.

Action Steps

Becky: Thank you so much. Well, I know that I have already taken away a few action items from today’s conversation. But what we always do at this point in the podcast is we give people some action steps that they can implement today. Liz, could you recommend one or two action steps that people can take as a result of listening to today’s podcast?

Liz: Yes!

I would say first, create an account. For those who have an account, I would shift your account right now from personal to either business or creator, there’s not a huge difference between the two. But that will open up all of those insights about your audience for you and it will give you the ability to promote posts, like we talked about. It will give you so much more information about your audience, which I think will be helpful moving forward. Then the other thing would be to just look at your account, try to look at it from an outsider’s perspective, how does your profile photo look? Do you look inviting in that photo? Is your general profile attractive when someone initially looks? What kind of content are you drawn to creating? What have you written about? And that will give you a lot of insight into what you as a creator would like to do in the future on Instagram as well to make a good plan to keep growing.ResourcesSign up for Liz’s Email Newsletter.Learn more about Liz’s Instagram 101 course here.Follow Liz on Instagram and Facebook.  

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 43: How to grow a following on Instagram appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 42: Why work with a ghostwriter?

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. We are in the month of February, which is the month of all topics related to authors and publishing choices. In this episode, we are joined by our friend and client, Michael Dowling, award-winning ghostwriter, author, and editor. 

About Michael Dowling

Becky: I’m going to let you give our audience a little bit of information about your background as we get started.

Michael: Becky, great to be here with you. Yes, I’m a ghostwriter. I work with business professionals, thought leaders, often they’re consultants or CEOs of companies, people like that, who want to write a book. Usually, it’s about their area of expertise. I want to create books that are in their voice and accomplish their goals. So my job is to be a servant to them and to save them time. I’m very conscious of their time and I work with them in an interactive, collaborative way. It’s a great job because I get to work with some top-notch people and it’s a rather intimate process when you work for several months with someone on a book. It’s a really fun job, and you develop some nice friends in the process.

Becky: I bet you do, Michael. So how many books would you estimate that you have ghostwritten during your career?

Michael: Probably a couple of dozen over the life of my career. I’ve been doing it since about 2000 so that’s about a book a year probably.

What motivates someone to hire a ghostwriter?

Becky: Michael, talk to me a little bit about what motivates someone to hire a ghostwriter?

Michael: Well, some people want to write a book about their family and family history. But by far, the largest number of my clients want to write a book to increase their business success. A book can open doors to new opportunities that just escalate your career and your organization. If an organization is involved to another level, people look at you with increased respect. As an author, a lot of people talk about writing a book, but very few do it. So somebody who becomes an author is really highly respected in our culture. First of all, it can communicate your message in a very effective way. You can put case examples in the book, illustrations, your own experiences, and it helps people understand what the content of the book is about. It helps communicate your content and your principles and it also tells people that you’ve been there and done that. So it shows that you have the experience, and it gives you a lot of credibility. Then a book will open doors for you. Organizations will want authors to come and speak if you have a book, so you’re much more likely to get speaking engagements. And if you already speak a lot, you can probably increase your speaking fees if you charge fees. A book is just a way of promoting your business, and your expertise has set you up as an expert in your field. People recognize that, so it’s very effective.

Becky: Michael, those are a lot of compelling reasons that someone would want to write a book. But tell me a little bit about the reason behind people choosing to hire a ghostwriter rather than writing the book themselves?

Michael: Well, it’s very difficult to write a book on your own. First of all, you have to be amazingly disciplined to do it, because other things take priority – your normal business, and most of the people that I work with are extremely busy, and it’s just hard to do. The second thing is when you’re working with someone else, you have that accountability. So you know that you’ve got a meeting or a phone call scheduled and you’ll do your homework for it. An editor or a ghostwriter, like I am, can work with you and help pull things out. If you’re writing a book, you’re very close to your subject. You may not see it objectively and someone who doesn’t know as much about it can ask questions and cause you to think about things in a different way that’s understandable to your target audience. So that’s why it’s so helpful to work with a ghostwriter like me, and I also save a lot of time for the person. 

How does the process of ghostwriting work?

Becky: That’s helpful. Thank you. So talk to me a little bit about how the process of ghostwriting works.

Michael: The first thing I do when I meet with someone is talk about why they want to write a book. When you know the potential rewards are there, then you will have the perseverance, determination, and dedication to do the job. You also want to know that at the end, you’ll get a good return on investment. That’s the first thing, know why you want to write a book for your own benefit. 

The second thing is to understand what you have to give to your readers. You need to be able to offer something of value to them. And then the process goes over a period of months, I tell people on average 9 to 10 months. So you start by doing those things, you get your focus right, in terms of why you’re writing it, and why people would want to read your book. 

Then we start by writing the preface, which talks about those things. The preface is the author’s way of selling the reader, what the book is about, why the person should read it, why you, as the author, are qualified to write it, what they can expect to get out of it, and so on. While we’re doing that, we’ll flesh out a rough table of contents. So you’ve got a roadmap for the book. Then we just go through the book, chapter by chapter, usually on phone calls. There’ll be a phone call, say, every couple of weeks, and I will record what my client says, I’ll work from that draft from the transcript and send something back in the next phone call, we’ll go over that, make great corrections, and so on. If there are places where it’s not the way my client would word, I’ll make sure to re-word it in his or her voice. But that’s the process. You work through it for that period of time until the book is done.

Becky: Wow, it’s an intense process. But it sounds like you have specific milestones along the way to help you stay on track.

Michael: Yeah, you can tell how you’re doing along the way and sometimes a client needs to take a month off to go somewhere, do something, and that’s fine. 

How do your clients publish their books?

Becky: Michael, you mentioned that most of the time your clients are business people who are looking to use their book as a door opener to additional business opportunities. So I’m curious what type of publishing choices your clients make with their books? How are most of your clients publishing their books, once they’re complete?

Michael: One or two of my clients have traditionally published a book and gone to a major publisher, but most of my clients self-publish their books because they have a niche market. Their book is not something that a major publisher would make a lot of money selling to the general public, so self-publishing is the way to go. I helped them set up their own Publishing company, which is a simple thing to do. I walk them all the way through that process because it’s a turnkey process to get books in their hands and an ebook. And the way I set it up is that my clients have a direct relationship with the printer. So after the book is published, they can buy additional books at the cost of the printer, which is usually very low. And if the client is selling books on his website or in the back of the room when giving a talk, you get the difference between whatever the list price of the book is and that printing cost. That’s very attractive, and you can easily give them away at an economical price. So, in a sense, it’s a very elaborate calling card that tells people what you do and stays with people and sells your message, for a very nominal cost.

How much does the entire process cost?

Becky: Well, let’s talk for a moment about cost, Michael. So you mentioned that it takes about six to nine months for you to partner with an author from that first call until the book is complete. About how long does it take from the time the book is complete until you have a published book in your hands? And about how much might an author expect to spend on that entire process, from hiring a ghostwriter to having that finished book in their hands?

Michael: Well, as I said earlier, the time from beginning to end is about 9 or 10 months, it can go faster and it can take longer depending on the needs of the author. The production part of the process, by the way, if you’re self-publishing, that’s the cost of the cover design, and then interior layout, and the printing of a few hundred copies. I tell people to budget $10,000 for that whole process, and that includes getting some copies of your book. So it’s relatively inexpensive. The biggest chunk, of course, is the writing, and I think it’s very important to work with a ghostwriter or an editor and not try to do it yourself for the reasons I said earlier. Usually the cost is billed. I bill on a monthly basis as the project proceeds, and that can range anywhere from $3,500 to $5,500 a month, depending on the complexity of the book, how many times we talk, and so on. So the total cost for doing a book can range anywhere from $35,000 to $60,000. Including the production costs, I would say about $40,000 to $65,000.

Do you have any final advice or cautions?  

Becky: Thanks for sharing those details, Michael. I’m sure that that is really helpful to authors who are considering writing a book and publishing a book as an investment in their businesses. I’m wondering, if you have any final advice or cautions for people who are considering this journey to becoming a published author?

Michael: 

If a book is strongly on your mind, don’t procrastinate. Talk to an editor or ghostwriter, like me, but get going and explore. The second thing is, before you get going very far, know why you want to write a book. You can discuss that with your editor or ghostwriter and refine it, but you need to know that. Then thirdly, discuss and clarify what your message is, and make sure it’s a valuable message. And again, I think you do that in conjunction with your ghostwriter. 

So I think the first part would be to get going and talk to somebody, and I always encourage people to come and talk to me, there’s no charge for me. And I think that’d be true of others as well. 

I should maybe mention a couple of cautions. There are companies out there that advertise they are a publisher and they’re looking for books and so on. And they’ll talk about how they’ll do things for you. Be leery of a lot of those, because what happens is it might look good at first, but then the way these companies make their money, they’re not traditional publishers, they’re not gonna make money. They don’t make money by selling your book to the public. They actually make money by selling your book back to you. So what you’re doing instead of buying books at the printer’s price, which is the way I set it up, you buy books at inflated prices, and they make a profit on selling your book back to you. So there are some things out there to be very cautious about that. You just need to find a ghostwriter or editor that you can really trust.

Action Steps

Becky: So what we always do on The Book Marketing Action Podcast is leave listeners with some actionable advice that they can implement today. Michael, I know you have three possibilities for folks who are listening today to have some next steps and action steps they could take. Would you share those with us?

Michael: Well, actually, I just shared them. 

Think about why you want to write a book – be clear about the objectives.Think about why someone would want to read your book – what value you have to add.Seek out a ghostwriter or editor if you need support to complete your book. There’s no particular best way to find a ghostwriter. I think it might be word of mouth or so on. There’s not one big association. There are some out there that you can go to, but I’m not currently a member of any of them. 

Becky: Let me just restate a couple of things that I heard throughout this call. 

Number one would be to think about why you want to write a book and be clear about the objectives if you’ve not already done so. Michael recommends doing that with the help of a ghostwriter or editor. The second thing would be to think carefully about why someone would want to read your book and what value you have to add by bringing it about to market. The third one is the one that Michael just mentioned, which is to seek out a ghostwriter or editor if you need support to complete your book. ResourcesClick here to learn more about Michael Dowling.You can email Michael Dowling directly here. Connect with Wool Street Writers on LinkedIn. 

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 42: Why work with a ghostwriter? appeared first on Weaving Influence.

Episode 41: Do I need a literary agent?

Click here to listen on your device and subscribe! 

Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. If you’re considering publishing a book, this month we are providing information that will help you sort through the various options available to you. 

About Barb Roose

Becky: Before we get started, in case people don’t know you, could you tell our listeners a little bit about you and your work?

Barb: Thank you, I am thrilled that we get a chance to connect. I am in the Northwest Ohio area. I am a speaker and an author, but also a literary agent. I am an agent with Books & Such Literary Management based in California, even though I’m in Ohio. We represent over 250 clients, both in print, as well as in media. I absolutely love helping authors, whether they’re hopeful or established authors, take the next steps to achieve their publishing career goals.

Why would someone need a literary agent?

Becky: Wonderful. I did invite you in the context of your work as a literary agent. One of the things that is important to me today is really to learn more with our listeners. Because, though my team and I have been supporting authors for many years, most of our authors do not use agents and many are curious about what it’s like to partner with an agent. So I’m looking forward to learning some more today that I can pass on to our clients. So let’s start with this Barb, why would someone need or want a literary agent?

Barb: This is a great foundational question, Becky, because it’s one thing for us to dream of a book and to write it down. The question is always, what do we do with it? When people ask, “why do I need an agent,” it is really about the decision to go into traditional publishing. And by traditional publishing, we mean the process of actually receiving a book contract from a publishing company. Thanks to IngramSpark, and Amazon KDP, those types of self-publishing outlets, anyone can write a book and publish it, and that is a great way to get your work into the world. 

In traditional publishing, it’s about a partnership with a publishing organization that can actually distribute work into greater networks. That is why traditional publishing would be attractive. An agent is someone who works with the author, who already has connections to those publishers. So in an environment where there are tens of thousands of people competing for very few traditional publishing contracts, an agent is an author’s best friend, because the agent has those relationships with the publisher.

What support does a literary agent provide?

Becky: That’s really helpful, Barb. So could you tell me a little bit, you mentioned that the agent is the one who has those existing connections to publishers, they can help an author stand out when there are thousands of others who are vying for opportunities in traditional publishing. So talk a little bit more about the type of support a literary agent provides, or what that journey of partnership between the agent and the author looks like?

Barb: Well, this question is high level. What an agent does is submit proposals to editors at publishing companies. They also negotiate the contracts. Once those proposals are accepted through what we call pub board or publishing board, the agent also makes sure that the author gets paid, as well as helps the author brainstorm future projects. So those are some of the high-level services. 

The first is to submit a proposal.The second is to negotiate the contract.The third is to make sure the payment happens. The fourth is to help them brainstorm what’s next in their career. 

Now, what separates agents from each other is the level at which they do each of those things. There are some agents out there who will receive a proposal from an author and they will just shotgun it out to 20 or 30 editors at 20 or 30 publishing companies just to say they sent the proposal out, but at my agency, there’s actually a more strategic approach. This is one of the distinguishing factors, because we have relationships with editors. Our proposals are specifically placed with editors that we know are looking for those projects. So while we may not send out a proposal to 20 or 30 editors that may or may not open those emails, because editors are getting hundreds of emails a day, when we place a project with a specific editor, we know that that editor is going to open an email because they know that what we are sending them is what they’re looking for. So even though an agent sends out a proposal for a client, that doesn’t mean that they have a relationship with the editor and that the editor will open it. What’s really important is for someone who’s looking at an agent to say, “hey, how do you send out a proposal,” because ultimately, the process doesn’t get started unless that proposal gets reviewed. 

Becky: That’s really powerful, Barb. Going a few steps back, you mentioned the book proposal. Is there any involvement from the literary agent in crafting or refining that proposal before it goes to help publishers and editors?

Barb: Absolutely, this is one of the most crucial parts of the entire process. A book proposal is the outline of that creative idea. What is vitally important is that when an editor opens up a book proposal, he or she has a wow moment. So as an agent, I am working with my clients on making sure that proposal has a captivating hook. Looking at the audience, making sure that all of the elements of what an editor is looking for that would make the editor want to buy the project is actually there in the proposal. So I’m working with a number of clients now, and we are spending time going through every element of that proposal before it’s submitted.

Becky: So Barb, before we started recording, you mentioned that you also call editors to do what you call a soft pitch. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that process is like?

Barb: Well, an editor at a publishing company’s job is to find the projects that are going to be unique and interesting and profitable, or sellable, at least. When I have either a new client who’s unpublished, or if I’m working with an established client with a proposal that I’m just not sure it’s going to bite with the editor, I will give an editor a call and just say, “Hey, I’ve got an idea to run by you from one of my clients, is this something you might be interested in?” And then the editor is able to kind of think about it and see, and there’s a difference between being interested and wanting to see it. Because when an editor says they’re interested, that means it’s kind of cool, but when they say “I want to see that,” that means it’s piqued their interest, so that allows me to go back to my client and go, “let’s get the work in, let’s get this done.” 

Becky: I’m curious as I listened to you, Barb, about what the success rate is. So consider a pool of 100 authors represented by agents, out of those 100 authors represented by agents, do you have any sense of how many of them might actually get a traditional book deal?

Barb: I don’t know how to quantify that. What I can tell you is that in my agency, and I’m specifically in what we call the CPA, which is the Christian publishing market, and within my agency there are over 250 authors, the agency itself represents dozens of best selling authors, as well as authors who publish one book a year, or they publish one book every other year. So what I can tell you is that with our agents, four out of the five agents exceeded their sales goals for the year. I don’t know exactly how to break that down into the number of contracts, but if I could speak from my experience as an author, in the last 14 months that I’ve been a traditionally published author, I have completed three book contracts in the last 14 months. I’ve had eight book contracts in the last five years. I can’t quantify the number, but I can say, as an author, when you have an agent that works with you on making sure you have a concept that’s going to be marketable and saleable, it may take time, but it is often that we can find a contract for that project.

What is an agent looking for in an author?

Becky: That’s helpful. I was just wanting to set some expectations. It’s not necessarily a guarantee that if an agent takes you on, you end up with a book deal. So that leads to an important question, what do agents look for, in selecting authors to represent?

Barb: Well, there are three things that I look for. 

The first is that concept or wow idea. There is nothing new under the sun but, just like in music, there are thousands of songs every year that are released about the topic of love. But the musicians find different ways to talk about love in a way that captures our attention and inspires us. The same thing goes for books, there’s nothing new out there to write about, but the way that we write about it, it can be inspiring, unique, and different. That’s what I’m looking for first. The second thing I’m looking for, I call woo. There has to be something about that person that interests me. They don’t have to be the life of the party, but they have to show up with their personality and they’ve got to be someone who’s engaging, because publishing is all about relationships. It has to be somebody that I want to work with, and somebody that I know an editor will want to work with. Then third, what I’m looking for is a platform. There are lots of different ways that a platform is described, but in essence, does this person have people who like their message, whether it’s an email list or on social media. A publisher wants to know that a person’s message resonates with others, because publishing is ultimately about creating profit. So I am looking for clients who have a platform where there are enough people who go,  “Yeah, this person’s message is valuable, and we want to hear more from them.” How can I find a literary agent?

Becky: Got it. So if someone is listening today, and they want to pursue traditional publishing, and they resonate with the idea of an agent being able to help them cut through the noise, in what way might an aspiring author go about finding or selecting a literary agent.

Barb: The simplest thing I recommend is going to Writer’s Digest. They have a list of agents that are there, or you can google literary agents. You want to be pretty specific. If you want to write fantasy, then you would Google fantasy agents or literary agents representing fantasy. What I also want to encourage you to do is go to the agent’s website and read about exactly what they represent. I receive dozens of queries every single week from people with book ideas. About half of them I don’t represent. I have listed on my website exactly what I represent, and half of what people query me are the things I don’t represent, so make sure you do some research. And query three agents at a time. If you don’t get a response, then switch your query up, rewrite it, tweak it, then query three more agents. That gives you an opportunity to keep improving upon your pitch to the agents.

Becky: That’s very helpful. I wonder, do you have any tips for what makes a good query, besides ensuring that you’re pitching the type of agent who represents your type of book?

Barb: A good book query, it allows the book itself to shine. Some of the quick, “do not do” are don’t say, “Hey, here’s your next best seller.” Don’t say, “This is the best book you’ll ever read.” Just simply begin with the hook of the book, and in the hook is a story about a young woman who overcame adversity and you just share those first three lines, that is going to keep the literary agent reading three more lines down, and then three more lines down. So let the idea that you have lead, and let that idea be strong right off the top.

How much does a literary agent cost?

Becky: That’s wonderful. Thank you, Barb. So a practical question. What can an aspiring author expect in terms of how they compensate their literary agents?

Barb: Great question. The industry standard is 15%. That is just the general standard, whether it’s general market or Christian publishing. If an agent is independent, it’s 15%. If an agent works for an agency, the 15% is generally the going percentage of commission, the client does not pay their literary agent a monthly fee or anything like that. The 15% is based off of any advances royalties, or any other special payments they receive as a result of work arranged by that agent, and for the life of that title. Even if a person leaves that agent and goes to another agency, the agent is still on that contract for the work that’s been arranged.

Becky: That’s really helpful. Thank you for clarifying. I’m sure that folks were curious about that. 

What questions should you ask when vetting literary agents? 

Becky: You mentioned that it’s not customary for an agent to charge a monthly fee. And we also talked a little bit about some of the questions you might ask a literary agent, for example, you referenced finding out in what way the agent would be pitching editors. Are there any other questions you can think of that would be great for someone to ask the editor once they have an opportunity to have that conversation?

Barb: Yes, some questions that I love hearing are:

Tell me about how you submit book proposals?Who/what publishing companies do you have the best relationships with?What are the projects that you love to represent as an agent? 

When I hear those questions, I know that person is interested in establishing a good relationship with me and making sure that I have a good relationship with the editors that they need.

Becky: I just love that, Barb, and it’s so exciting to see the impact that you’re having with the authors that you’re partnering with and to be able to watch your journey. 

Action Steps

Becky: So as you know at the end of every episode, we leave our listeners with action steps. Do you have any action steps based on today’s content?

Barb: I do!

Decide/answer the question: do I want to pursue traditional publishing? Let yourself be okay with whatever the answer is. If you love independently publishing and just getting your work out there and having 100% control over it, great, live with that, love it, and thrive there. If you want to partner with a traditional publisher, enter into that partnership, knowing that there might be some things you have to let go of, as well as obligations to another partner in your project. If that is something you’re okay with then say yes to traditional publishing and accept that journey as well. So the first question is deciding which one is right for you. Go to WritersDigest.com and begin an agent search there. Just look for agents that match what you want to write about and know what you want to write about, so that you can have the best chance of finding the agent that’s right for you.ResourcesClick here for Barb’s literary agency website, Books & Such Literary Management.Learn more about Barb on her personal website here. Find Barb on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.Check out Barb’s upcoming devotional, Surrendered: 40 Devotions to Help You Let Go & Live Like Jesus .

If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.

Click here to tweet about this episode!

The post Episode 41: Do I need a literary agent? appeared first on Weaving Influence.