Crime and Punishment: Part V1 & Conclusion - Mar.20 -31

[Silver]

PART VI

CHAPTER I

CHAPTER II

CHAPTER III

CHAPTER IV

CHAPTER V

CHAPTER VI

CHAPTER VII

CHAPTER VIII

EPILOGUE

[Amalie]

Leave your final thoughts. Anyone who is done reading C & P. Here are few things I noticed.

Crime and Punishment argues that prison-system is an important element of social justice because he see Raskolnikov learns the truth there. The characters who stand by Raskolnikov even after his crime is known demonstrate that love and friendship can work together with judgment to help bring justice.

I seriously believe that Crime and Punishment argues that child molestation is a worse crime than murder. I just wonder of the treatment of religions specially in Christianity to child molestation. Is it a crime that can be forgiven?



Leave your thoughts about any or all of the followings, I'd really love to know.

1. Who is the bigger criminal, Raskolnikov or Svidrigaïlov? Could Svidrigaïlov, a child molester, have "changed" in the way Raskolnikov did? Why or why not?

2. Is Raskolnikov only having issues because his Napoleon theory and the experiment failed, or is it because he feels bad about what he did?

3. Is Raskolnikov mentally ill? How can we know?

4. Raskolnikov is found guilty of the murder but was given a reduced sentence because of his mental state. Was justice done?

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "I seriously believe that Crime and Punishment argues that child molestation is a worse crime than murder. I just wonder of the treatment of religions specially in Christianity to child molestation. Is it a crime that can be forgiven? ..."

I had completely forgotten about Svidrigaïlov. He kills himself right? It's interesting what you say. I think rape of anyage, nationality, or religion by anyone of any age, nationality, or religion, is considered to be one of the most serious crimes, punishable, I think. I'll tell about the stand of Islam.

Islam prohibits all expression of sexuality outside marriage, so it is one of the most serious crimes. There is no rule in Islam requiring a rape victim to forgive the rapist but she does so the rapist’s punishment is reduced from execution in some countries.

It an interesting question, I think Svidrigaïlov is the worst criminal because I don't think he even thought he committed a crime where as Raskolnikov relaised and accepted the punishment so he is a better person, despite his pre-meditated murder.

[dely]

Amalie wrote: "I seriously believe that Crime and Punishment argues that child molestation is a worse crime than murder. I just wonder of the treatment of religions specially in Christianity to child molestation. Is it a crime that can be forgiven? "

You should read The House of the Dead. In this book Dostoyevsky explains in a very detailed way the differences between the different crimes. It is a very good psychological (but also human) treatise.
In Christianity everything must be forgiven if there is repentance; there must be mercy and forgiveness.


1. Who is the bigger criminal, Raskolnikov or Svidrigaïlov? Could Svidrigaïlov, a child molester, have "changed" in the way Raskolnikov did? Why or why not?

In my opinion in a child molester there is illness or evil intentions. In the first case, if he feels guilty hurting a child but can't stop so he must be helped and perhaps he can change; in the second case he doesn't need help and he can't change. If a person is so evil to damaged a child (or feels good only damaging a child) I think that he can't be helped. In both cases prison doesn't help: in the first case he needs specialized medical care; in the second case such a person should be closed in a room of a psychiatric clinic and should stay there all life long.
Raskolnikov, after all, did not damaged a defenseless person (yes, she was old but it is not like a defenseless child) and he was sure to do something right. For him prison can help because there he can think about what he has done and so he can change.

2) I think Raskolnikov was really sorry for what he has done. He understands that his theory can't be applied because every person has a coscience.

3) He understands that his theory can't be applied and this makes him go haywire because he is fought between his ideas of megalomania and his conscience as a human being. I don't know if this can conduce to illness.

[Amalie]

dely wrote: "AYou should read The House of the Dead. In this book Dostoyevsky explains in a very detailed way the differences between the different crimes. It is a very good psychological (but also human) treatise...."

Great! Thanks another friend recommended me The Gambler but first I need a break from the images of the dying horse and the murder scene.

I love your comments on the questions Dely and agree with you about Raskolnikov.

As for child molestation issue, I'm not disagreeing with your view but I just never felt it as a forgivable crime even it the guilty party repents. I think Jesus said something about... (sorry to bring religion to the discussion again, :)

"But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Jesus' words, I always read it as his way of saying how child abuse at any level is the worst crime. Think perhaps Dostoyevsky brought it purposefully. For certain crimes, if we philosophize like Raskolnikov did (though he failed) we can find a "reason" but not for damaging a child, that is just a crime whether the person repent or not.

[dely]

Amalie wrote: "For certain crimes, if we philosophize like Raskolnikov did (though he failed) we can find a "reason" but not for damaging a child, that is just a crime whether the person repent or not."

Me too, I think that it is one of the worse crimes but I think also that the pedophile has his reasons to do it. It means, if you ask him, he can tell you his reasons.
I have never read the Gospels but what they taught me (religion hour at school) is that every true and deep repentance will be forgiven.

About the sentence of Jesus you have written, I think that a lot of Catholic priests should re-read the Gospels instead of confess themselves hoping to redeem themselves. Sorry for this outburst, but I am "slightly allergic" to Catholic priests.

[Marie]

dely wrote: "Amalie wrote: "For certain crimes, if we philosophize like Raskolnikov did (though he failed) we can find a "reason" but not for damaging a child, that is just a crime whether the person repent or..."

Agree completely with both of you. In fact I don't think pedophilia is a treatable disease or anything I think they make those choices and they are sick choices. Even in Nabokov's Lolita if the readers are smart they can see right through H.H.'s language and see Dolores Haze is the ultimate victim of the novel whose childhood is destroyed and crushed. Since it's an experimental novel, where Nabokov uses language to seduce his readers just as Humbert uses it to seduce the women of the novel, can't say more about pedophilia issue.

But I agree with Dely, the priests should re-read the Bible (I hope these comments are against the rules/regulations of the group.)

Then about Dostoevsky, he teaches psychology better than any. Then his works are tied to Christianity, a person with any kind of spiritual concern can learn many just by reading his books. Anyone who is interested, check the book Dostoevsky: Language, Faith, and Fiction by Rowan Williams There are some great analysis about Dostoyevsky's writing connecting to child abuse, unmotivated violence, culture clash,national identity etc.

[Marie]

Amalie wrote: ""But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea." ..."

Most have forgotten these parts. Jesus' massage was love and forgiveness but here, he is offering to those who might hurt a child a choice, rather commit suicide than hurting children. And suicide is one of the worst crimes against the teaching of Christianity so Child abuse is one of the worst crimes. The intent of his instruction here is not retributive. The goal here I think, is to protect the potential victims. I think anyone can see Jesus took sides with the victims and sufferers not the criminals.

Since Dostoevsky was a man who knew what he was talking about, I think he is addressing a point here, Svidrigaïlov does commit suicide right? Just like the "millstone tied around your neck".

I think in The Brothers Karamazov too, Dostoevsky talks about tales of child abuse.

[[deleted user]]

Marie wrote: "Since Dostoevsky was a man who knew what he was talking about, I think he is addressing a point here, Svidrigaïlov does commit suicide right? Just like the "millstone tied around your neck"..."

Wonderful, I do see connections now. Thanks for the book recommendation as well. I think abused children is a recurring theme again in Dostoevsky's books.

*******spoilers perhaps*********

In the Demons, Stavrogin seduces and destroy a young girl. After sleeping with her, Stavrogin abandons her and acts as if nothing happened. She becomes humiliated and blames herself for destroying her innocence and purity. Because of her mother's physical abuse, this young victim becomes silent and submissive, and learns to deal with her pain.

[dely]

@ Marie

Me too, I was thinking about Lolita and Humbert wants the reader to believe that he was almost seduced by Dolores.
I think that it is really difficult to enter the mind of a pedophile because there must be a lot of different reasons for damaging children. Though we don't justify or understand these reasons, they are valid for them.

Why is pedophilia so recurrent in Dostoyevsky? Because he loved children? Because for a believer children are little innocent angels to be protect always?

[Amalie]

Bunch of stuff I had no idea of. For me, these is completely new info. I had no idea he talks of pedophilia either.

He does talk about victimized children like here in C&P. I read somewhere Dostoevsky was fascinated with children, and was extremely affected by the suffering they were often forced to endure. As a result, the theme of children became one of the most important in his portrayal of society and he became obsessed with the theme of children on the road to destruction.

As for his own life, I don't think there was much suffering there, nothing out of ordinary at least, other than his illness. May be the Christian philosophy has had an effect on him. Jesus loved children and no, that point is going no where... I'll wait for a proper answer. ;)

[Marie]

dely wrote: "Why is pedophilia so recurrent in Dostoyevsky? Because he loved children? Because for a believer children are little innocent angels to be protect always? ..."

It's not pedophilia exactly, rather child abuse in general and in many forms. Perhaps he was influenced by the events of his time. These various forms of child abuse are recurrent in all his major works, as someone said there, also in "Demons"/"Devils" , "Crime ad Punishment" , "The Idiot", "The Brothers Karamazov" and even in his short stories like The Little Orphan. Also the children in his novels are more mature than the evil adults around them. They are angelic beings (all children are) but ironically it is this precise innocent characteristics which attract corrupt adults and ultimately destroy their angelic characters.

I'm guessing Dostoevsky was a man who really loved children.

[dely]

Thanks Marie!
What you say is true; I use to link (improperly) "abuse" always with pedophilia but you are right, in Dostoyevsky's works there are often children who are abused in many forms.