Creative Reviews discussion
?'s for the Members of CR
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The Misconception of Editing
You aren't the only one who has these questions, Experiment. I have been particularly critical of Amanda Hocking's works because of the lack of editing. Now that she has a major publishing deal, I'm supposing that she will have editors at her disposal. I know not all readers care if there are typos, grammatical errors and inconsistencies, but I sure do, and I downgrade my reviews accordingly.
Authors should never, ever edit their own novels, IMO. They need a completely unbiased set of eyes, so I don't think of real-life friend should do it either.I have the bad habit of editing while I read, so I have come across some indie authors, where the writing has been very vague, and they're taking five sentences to make a point that could be made in two sentences. And also, I don't even know which character's POV it is until I'm a few pages in, and then I have to reread it again to see if I was right. So, those are usually the books I abandon, because it's not worth my frustration.
I've seen a lot of authors requesting reviews, but is there a group where indie authors can request editors? (amateur, of course). The amateur editors should at least have a college degree.
Damali wrote: "Authors should never, ever edit their own novels, IMO. They need a completely unbiased set of eyes, so I don't think of real-life friend should do it either.I have the bad habit of editing while ..."
Ooo, I hate books who are like that — unnecessary wordy. But actually, I experience this more from mainstream books than in indie books.
There also needs to be a group for beta-readers too.
Emme wrote: "You aren't the only one who has these questions, Experiment. I have been particularly critical of Amanda Hocking's works because of the lack of editing. Now that she has a major publishing deal, I'..."
I remember reading a blogpost from her that she had 5+ people editing her stories and there will still mistakes. And I thought, how many mistakes did she had originally 'cause dang. I'm still amazed by her success even with the poor editing. But then again, AH is the exception not the rule.
Personally for me, I don't downgrade my rating unless the writing mistakes are so bad that they disrupt my reading. I don't believe I have done that so far, which is fortunate for my reading enjoyment.
Experiment,
I am one of the readers who evaluates manuscripts for my publisher. You would be surprised at the abysmal level of grammar, punctuation and formatting occasionally submitted to us as finished works. If some of the people we rejected went on to publish on their own without using an editor since they obviously did not think they needed one, the quality of the work would justify the prejudice.
While I have not personally read a book released for the Kindle that has been packed with glaring errors, my wife has. I will not name names, but someone did not do their homework.
Having said that, there are people with a vested interest and plenty of money to invest in PR who would like to label all works not published in hard copy as "unworthy" and this is one of their tactics. It works because there is just enough truth in it to make it stick.
And to answer your your question, yes, arrogance has a lot to do with it. One need only read postings in some of the on-line forums to see the gaps in many allegedly literate people's ability to use the English language.
Bob
I am one of the readers who evaluates manuscripts for my publisher. You would be surprised at the abysmal level of grammar, punctuation and formatting occasionally submitted to us as finished works. If some of the people we rejected went on to publish on their own without using an editor since they obviously did not think they needed one, the quality of the work would justify the prejudice.
While I have not personally read a book released for the Kindle that has been packed with glaring errors, my wife has. I will not name names, but someone did not do their homework.
Having said that, there are people with a vested interest and plenty of money to invest in PR who would like to label all works not published in hard copy as "unworthy" and this is one of their tactics. It works because there is just enough truth in it to make it stick.
And to answer your your question, yes, arrogance has a lot to do with it. One need only read postings in some of the on-line forums to see the gaps in many allegedly literate people's ability to use the English language.
Bob
I think a beta readers list is a great idea.Cheers
MTM
Money and time, primarily, are the main obstacles.There are at least four levels of editing that a completed manuscript should go through after it passes the beta-reader stage: developmental/structural editing, line editing, copyediting and proofreading.
Developmental editing is looking at the book's content for plot holes, weak characterization, logical inconsistencies, and problems with overall structure and theme. Line editing is a comprehensive and detailed review of the language used, to remove cliches, repetitive wording, poor phrasing, etc. Copyediting is review of the form of language, to eliminate grammatical and punctuation mistakes, and typographical errors. Then a proofreader reads through the entire book and checks if there is anything out of place in the finished manuscript.
Ideally these should all be separate people, so that fresh eyes catch mistakes that someone familiar with the manuscript would automatically gloss over. Therefore, the author and beta readers should NOT be the ones to edit the completed manuscript.
It can take a few tries to find an editor who fits with your style, so if you're talking about hiring freelance professionals, the cost to retain their skills can be prohibitive. Also, it takes time to maneuver through all these layers of quality control, so many authors get impatient and think they can just move ahead and accept the errors they no longer notice.
They're wrong. Readers notice these things, and I think they appreciate when the author takes the time to get it right.
My eyes glaze over after the third or fourth rewrite of a manuscript. things go by unnoticed. My husband edits for me too, but the same thing applies for him.
My next novel is a culmination of many years of drafts and rewrites, neither of us have fresh eyes. I've found a developmental editor and I'll be getting a copy editor after I've completed the rewrites. Without this outside help, I don't think it could possibly reach its potential. I've spent too many years with my characters (I sometimes call my daughter, Lilith, by accident :)) to let them down now.
Money is an issue, but I think its worth every cent to get to that point. (And my husband is familiar with the starving artist bit, I just spent over $500 on framing--again all about the quality of the presentation).
My next novel is a culmination of many years of drafts and rewrites, neither of us have fresh eyes. I've found a developmental editor and I'll be getting a copy editor after I've completed the rewrites. Without this outside help, I don't think it could possibly reach its potential. I've spent too many years with my characters (I sometimes call my daughter, Lilith, by accident :)) to let them down now.
Money is an issue, but I think its worth every cent to get to that point. (And my husband is familiar with the starving artist bit, I just spent over $500 on framing--again all about the quality of the presentation).
I have to add that I really like idea of a pool of beta readers. What about a Lets type system; an exchange of services, including beta readers, structural editors, copy editors, graphic designers, artists, cover designers, anything to do with self-publishing?
Most of the YA market totally skips the developmental editing part. Maybe they think kids won't notice, but there's lots of adults who read the genre, too.
Damali wrote: "Most of the YA market totally skips the developmental editing part. Maybe they think kids won't notice, but there's lots of adults who read the genre, too."
I think everybody notices. If the flow isn't right, the characters are flat or the dialogue is dodgy who wants to read on?
I think everybody notices. If the flow isn't right, the characters are flat or the dialogue is dodgy who wants to read on?
Damali wrote: "Most of the YA market totally skips the developmental editing part. Maybe they think kids won't notice, but there's lots of adults who read the genre, too."Me! Well, I only became an adult a few years ago. I read YA way before that.
Georgina wrote: "I think everybody notices. If the flow isn't right, the characters are flat or the dialogue is dodgy who wants to read on?"
You'll be surprised. Let's just say some authors are so successful, they're rot in it and just crank out one formulaic book after another and people will buy it anyway. Let us not forget that author's name are brands too, and how brand loyalty is powerful phenomenon. It's good for authors being able to make a living, not so good for loyal fans who always wants and expect the best from their favorite authors.
And what is a Lets type system?
Because an author usually reads a manuscript many times, they won't catch many errors. But every author should have at least one other person go through their manuscript before submitting it.Professional editors are very expensive, though, and probably too expensive for the average self-published author. Beta-readers are great and will catch some stuff. Amateur editors are also really good, but can still miss things. Unfortunately it takes many pairs of eyes and it seems like something will always get missed.
I'm fairly forgiving of an occasional typo here and there. I am less forgiving of flaws in the story.
True, professional editors are expensive, but publishing is a business. If you can't be bothered to put out a quality product, then why should anyone take you seriously? And if you're just putting out a book as a hobby, then why offer it for sale next to those people who actually invest in their work?The days are gone where an author could just focus on writing, and ignore the basic elements of the business they're in. Even traditionally published authors are given very little marketing support at the start of their careers, and have to build brand loyalty on their own.
Lets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ex...
I've also heard that the more successful a writer, the less they listen to their editors.
And I agree about the readers.'But every author should have at least one other person go through their manuscript before submitting it.'
I have seven readers but as to the developmental side, they all differ in their opinions. That's why I have a professional going over my manuscript now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ex...
I've also heard that the more successful a writer, the less they listen to their editors.
And I agree about the readers.'But every author should have at least one other person go through their manuscript before submitting it.'
I have seven readers but as to the developmental side, they all differ in their opinions. That's why I have a professional going over my manuscript now.
Arshad wrote: "True, professional editors are expensive, but publishing is a business. If you can't be bothered to put out a quality product, then why should anyone take you seriously? And if you're just puttin..."Last I checked, it is hard to find editors who will float you a loan until your royalty checks start coming in. Publishing IS a business, but unless you've got the money from somewhere else, a starting author can't afford to shell out the kind of cash a GOOD editor can demand. And there are plenty of bad editors who will demand similar prices.
If someone can find a good editor at a price they can afford, they should go with it. But not everyone is so lucky. And even good editors miss things. Not all authors will make the changes the editors recommend. And sometimes everything is just perfect... and then the printer screws up the book.
Editing is an important part of the process, but there are a lot of steps along the way where mistakes can happen. And a lot of folks want to skip the steps that correct the mistakes.
Doc
Writers can't edit their own work for the simple fact that they already know what they mean!! So if something is worded badly it seems perfectly clear to them. And when everything seems perfectly obvious you can make some really dumb mistakes!! Case in point - someone pointed out a while back on my blog that she had never written on her cover that it was part of a trilogy. I was getting a lot of comments that my story finished abruptly and I was a bit impatient of it as I'd tagged the first chapter of the next book on the end as a freebie - only it was after a list of names, so probably a lot of people wouldn't nec get that far - and when I looked, I hadn't written anywhere in the blurb, on the cover, or anywhere else that ODS was part one of a series because with the first chapter of the next bit tagged on the end, it was so obvious!!!Have now altered blurb to reflect fact that it's a series and when I take Bk 1 down to insert links for book 2, I'll be tweaking the cover and endpapers slightly.
But you see, between my own slightly OCD spell-checking and my two editors' work we'd picked up all the small mistakes, and it wasn't really their job to notice the whackingly great huge one that I left up there!
Since changing it, I'm still getting people say it's too short (and they're quite right - another learning point) but at least they know that there WILL be more as soon as I can finish inputting the corrections from editing!
Talking of which...
JAC
Yeah, I realized, when I was looking over the printed version of my third book, that I had given the main character the same name as a minor character from my first book. None of my beta readers, editors, or proofreaders caught it. That was embarrassing.
MTM wrote: "I think a beta readers list is a great idea.Cheers
MTM"
I second that. I'm always looking for beta-readers.
And Damira, there is a list of editors here at CR (topic http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...). I've tried Cassie and booked a couple more so far (our Mighty Amy, the Creator of the group, is also one of them) and they're not that expensive.
I'm very much in the red for editing expenses - also because English is not my mother tongue and I feel a native should have a look at my grammar (although often I'm better than some natives...). I now send the same manuscript to betas and editor(s) because if only 1 person points at a problem (pro or not) it might be that person's problem, but if 2 or more do - I have a problem and must address the issue!
A manuscript swap with other authors would also be great... anyone game? :-)
Oh, and I studied Experiment's study on Beta-readers... I think there's some confusion between betas and editors, but as long as the authors state what they want from whomever is reading for them, I think we'll be all right...
And I've found bad editors in trad publishing as well, so...
Barb
Barbara said, "Oh, and I studied Experiment's study on Beta-readers... I think there's some confusion between betas and editors..."Um, what study did Experiment do on beta-readers? I'm very new to this game and have only once been a beta-reader, but I would like to know how one transitions to being an editor.
Emme wrote: "Barbara said, "Oh, and I studied Experiment's study on Beta-readers... I think there's some confusion between betas and editors..."Um, what study did Experiment do on beta-readers? I'm very new t..."
Case in point, in America we don't use the term "mother tongue" we use "native language" or "first language." Just an FYI. =)
To my belief, betas are non-professionals while editors are professionals. Beta readers tend to largely focus on the side of developmental editing because you don't need to be an English major or have a degree to do that — you just need to be an opinionated reader. After all, it's readers who will buy your books. But beta readers have been known to do other sorts of editing. 'Cause if you usually read fanfic or origfic found online, you have to be jack of all trades (but master of none) when it comes editing when you offer your free service. Well... you just have to have a better grasp of the language than the author anyway, they're not picky. =P
I beta read occasionally for my author-wannabe RL friend, but it was only a glance 'cause she just wanted my impression. However, recently I beta read a 380K novel for an author whose native language was not English. Talk about time-consuming (though not as much as writing the story itself, for sure) but I had to fix a lot of awkward sentences and the inconsistencies, especially with the names, um... yeah, it was an eye-opening experience. I'm sure I missed some but hey, I wasn't a pro or paid to do this. Fortunately, the author did have a pro who was willing to edit for free — yes, I know, the author was lucky. For a 380K novel? The author was very lucky, indeed.
Beta readers can only help authors so much. If an author can't afford a professional, I can understand and sympathize. But that author better understand we readers won't hold back our opinion if see any shoddy writing, edited by a pro or not. Better steel themselves.
Emme wrote: "Um, what study did Experiment do on beta-readers? I'm very new t..."
Oh no, no, no. It wasn't me who did the study, it was someone else. All I did was just create a thread letting people know about the site.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...
*goes off to edit that thread before someone accuse me of IP theft*
Professional editing cost on average about $.03 to $.05 per written word depending upon the depth of the edit/copyedit/proof read. For a decent length story, 70K words, that's $2,100 to $3,500.
A suggestion for writers, find a text-to-speech program. The digital voice lets me hear what I can no longer see - the real words.
Natural Reader has a free version. Highlight the text and push play then listen for verb tense problems, extra or missing words, the beat of the prose. Can even help with comma usage since the voice pauses at every comma. (I tend to use too many).
I've used critiquing groups, beta readers, even an editor and proof reader - and still ending up publishing stories with errors.
I'm hope it's because the people forget why they are reading, because the what is so compelling - and not because they get board and their eyes glaze over ;-)
If only someone would write an editing program for fiction writers, then we could eleminate the human error problems.
Thanks for the info, all. I've done one turn at beta-reading, like I mentioned. With that project I found myself crossing the line into editing-- and I was comfortable with that. A significant part of my area of concentration for my English degree was literary criticism and I was an English tutor, especially working with ESL students, so I feel that I might be able to transition to editing, with a bit more experience. I think I'll seek out other beta-reading opportunities and see what develops now that I'm armed with the information that was shared here.
Emme wrote: "Thanks for the info, all. I've done one turn at beta-reading, like I mentioned. With that project I found myself crossing the line into editing-- and I was comfortable with that. A significant part..."
If you are available as a Beta reader I would be very interested, Emme. (Your reviews are very well written and your criticisms constructive:):)) Georgina.
If you are available as a Beta reader I would be very interested, Emme. (Your reviews are very well written and your criticisms constructive:):)) Georgina.
J.A. wrote: "Writers can't edit their own work for the simple fact that they already know what they mean!! So if something is worded badly it seems perfectly clear to them. And when everything seems perfectly o..."
This is it in a nut-shell. We know what we mean, but whether that is getting across to the readers? Impartial beta readers are worth their weight in gold (if I had any gold that is). Friends can be biased no matter how much we ask for honesty when it comes to highlighting the flaws.
So what about this idea of a beta reader list? And possibly copy editors etc? I've read a lot of posts by writers in other groups, that are looking for something similar.
Maybe a folder where writers state their book's genre, length etc and post a link to a sample (as Experiment mentioned, some manuscripts may be harder to work with in terms of spelling and grammar. It would also allow a reader to see if they like the writing style.) Beta readers could also post their preferences.
As for payment a lets type system is about a swapping of services.
'The amateur editors should at least have a college degree.' I agree on this point, actual copy editing requires distinct skills.
My husband (ex chef, B.A Politics and History) has a certificate in writing and editing. He won't read through a story without editing along the way, which sometimes frustrates me because I want overall feedback before we begin working on the details. The early days of my writing were hardest. We had some very funny rows over his ruthlessness and my reluctance to step back from my work and take advice.
This is it in a nut-shell. We know what we mean, but whether that is getting across to the readers? Impartial beta readers are worth their weight in gold (if I had any gold that is). Friends can be biased no matter how much we ask for honesty when it comes to highlighting the flaws.
So what about this idea of a beta reader list? And possibly copy editors etc? I've read a lot of posts by writers in other groups, that are looking for something similar.
Maybe a folder where writers state their book's genre, length etc and post a link to a sample (as Experiment mentioned, some manuscripts may be harder to work with in terms of spelling and grammar. It would also allow a reader to see if they like the writing style.) Beta readers could also post their preferences.
As for payment a lets type system is about a swapping of services.
'The amateur editors should at least have a college degree.' I agree on this point, actual copy editing requires distinct skills.
My husband (ex chef, B.A Politics and History) has a certificate in writing and editing. He won't read through a story without editing along the way, which sometimes frustrates me because I want overall feedback before we begin working on the details. The early days of my writing were hardest. We had some very funny rows over his ruthlessness and my reluctance to step back from my work and take advice.
Georgina, I would be delighted to beta for you...contact me off-list and we'll discuss it.
Carrie wrote: "Professional editing cost on average about $.03 to $.05 per written word depending upon the depth of the edit/copyedit/proof read. For a decent length story, 70K words, that's $2,100 to $3,500.
..."
At Blood-Red Pencil (http://bloodredpencil.blogspot.com/) I found cheaper and very fast editors who did a wonderful job (as much as the ones found here)... no need to spend thousands, trust me (although I might have reached that, but with 5 novels between 70k and 90k)! :-)
Sorry for mis-quoting your link, Experiment! *blushes and hides in a corner for five minutes*
So, there's the Editors Topic, is there a Beta-readers Wanted topic now?
I can add a Beta Readers thread right now!
Carrie wrote: "Professional editing cost on average about $.03 to $.05 per written word depending upon the depth of the edit/copyedit/proof read. For a decent length story, 70K words, that's $2,100 to $3,500.
..."
Wow, I'm SERIOUSLY undercharging, then ... LOL I charge $0.002/word, which works out to $50 for each 25000 words (with a minimum charge of $50 up to 25000 words), but I also offer a barter system for folks who can't afford that. I think a lot of people starting out in independent publishing and self-publishing, etc., get friends or family members to "edit" their books, and often these people don't have the discriminating eye to catch the errors that tend to abound. Recently I read a book where a character was described as having "taunt" muscles; another where someone was being handed the "reigns" to a group to become leader ... another where people were being "lead" places ... Then there are the more subtle things, like blonde vs. blond, or the plural of bus (it's buses, NOT busses, which means something else altogether!!). Arshad is correct saying that there should be several levels of editing - while when I edit, I try to perform all of the tasks he mentioned, having multiple eyes look at a document is really important. A couple of the books I've edited had been previously reviewed by anywhere from 3 - 5 different people and I still found many errors; I'm sure the books I've edited, if someone else were to go over them, they would find errors still. Anyway, the important thing is to find an editor that actually has been trained or studied editing, and with whom you are able to work. We do have a section where those of us who perform this service list our information, so feel free to check in there and see if you can find someone you are interested in hitting up for help.
OK, off to get a nap now ... *yawn* Usually am asleep well before now - in fact, I'm often WAKING UP from a nap right about now ... *rolls eyes* My sleep-wake schedule is getting all messed up!
Cambria wrote: "I can add a Beta Readers thread right now!"
That would be great, Cambria! I just found Emme as a beta reader through this thread.
And Katy I'll be emailing you about your services as an editor if that's o.k?
I've found some whoppers in my manuscripts along the way. Mere minutes from uploading my fantasy story, as I was reading over it for the umpteenth time, I discovered that my twins suckled nosily--that's right nosily, instead of noisily.
Here's some doozies (from another manuscript):
'Pool fool'
'The raven peeked at the old man's cheek'--not as sinister as pecked I'm sure.
'Killings kings'
'The roster crowed'--Can a roster crow?
No spell check is going to pick those up. That particular manuscript was sent (mistakes and all) via my agent to publishers. Two, later beta readers picked them up (and quite a few more).
I've also used the word blond throughout my fantasy story. I think I've used the right word, as in 'blond of hair, light coloured;fair' not blonde as in 'blonde-haired woman'. Am I right ?
Please, please tell me that I've used the right word so I don't have to re-upload the story!
That would be great, Cambria! I just found Emme as a beta reader through this thread.
And Katy I'll be emailing you about your services as an editor if that's o.k?
I've found some whoppers in my manuscripts along the way. Mere minutes from uploading my fantasy story, as I was reading over it for the umpteenth time, I discovered that my twins suckled nosily--that's right nosily, instead of noisily.
Here's some doozies (from another manuscript):
'Pool fool'
'The raven peeked at the old man's cheek'--not as sinister as pecked I'm sure.
'Killings kings'
'The roster crowed'--Can a roster crow?
No spell check is going to pick those up. That particular manuscript was sent (mistakes and all) via my agent to publishers. Two, later beta readers picked them up (and quite a few more).
I've also used the word blond throughout my fantasy story. I think I've used the right word, as in 'blond of hair, light coloured;fair' not blonde as in 'blonde-haired woman'. Am I right ?
Please, please tell me that I've used the right word so I don't have to re-upload the story!
Katy wrote: Wow, I'm SERIOUSLY undercharging, then ... LOL I charge $0.002/word...Me too! I was going with $.003-.007 (depending on the state of the text) and I'm also willing to work out something with authors. I guess we need to review our pricing Katy!
Barbara wrote: "MTM wrote: "I think a beta readers list is a great idea.Cheers
MTM"
I second that. I'm always looking for beta-readers.
And Damira, there is a list of editors here at CR (topic http://www.goodr..."
I've found myself falling into an editor role and love it! I may not have a degree in editing but I have taken so many college classes and creative writing classes, I should have a degree at this point. :) I've worked with several attorneys and lawmakers here in Arkansas when I worked for our Dept. of Education, and over the years have learned more about writing than most college graduates.
I have an editor's hat on all the time because I am constantly looking for mistakes in grammar, punctuation, spelling and language use. I'm also guilty of being critical about how a story flows together and character development. Like Cambria, I'm pretty OCD about the written/typed word and been accused of being a natural editor so this seems to be the next step to take on my journey through life.
Since I'm disabled, I'm restricted in the amount of money I can make so I use and prefer the barter system, like Katy mentioned. If someone has a book for me that's 80k to 90k, I only charge 2 physical books and 3 ebooks with the option of substituting a music CD for an ebook or a DVD for a physical book. The book I'm editing counts as an ebook so it would actually be 2 ebooks. I never want a brand new book, used is fine with me. I'm a cheap date, LOL! I know that most authors aren't in it for the money, they just want to tell a story they have and share it with others; I treat that story as the "baby" it is.
I'm always honored to help someone out with editing and will always treat the author and story with respect.
You guys gotta hear this..For those who dont know my Publishing company is PublishAmerica( yes I know already save the they suck and will scam you comments) anyways, I went over my book several times and as did their editing team(supposeably) will after my book was Published i happen to skim threw it and noticed a few errors I had missed and clearly they did to, when I asked if I could revise my book based on these errors and cause it wasnt selling they said no they like it the way it was..well who are you to tell me I cant edit my own damn book? If I see something wrong I should be able to fix it..and so it goes..Editing should be taken lightly.
Justin wrote: "You guys gotta hear this..For those who dont know my Publishing company is PublishAmerica( yes I know already save the they suck and will scam you comments) anyways, I went over my book several tim..."
I'm a pretty peaceful person but that makes me growl, Justin.
What sort of contract did you sign and for how long? I think the old song 'Sixty ways to leave your lover' could provide a few tips of what to do in this situation (obviously with the publishers name in the lovers place!).
I'm a pretty peaceful person but that makes me growl, Justin.
What sort of contract did you sign and for how long? I think the old song 'Sixty ways to leave your lover' could provide a few tips of what to do in this situation (obviously with the publishers name in the lovers place!).
Georgina wrote: "Justin wrote: "You guys gotta hear this..For those who dont know my Publishing company is PublishAmerica( yes I know already save the they suck and will scam you comments) anyways, I went over my b..."As far as I know a standard contract and seven years but no way im stayin that long.
Justin wrote: "Georgina wrote: "Justin wrote: "You guys gotta hear this..For those who dont know my Publishing company is PublishAmerica( yes I know already save the they suck and will scam you comments) anyways,..."
You may need to get some advice from a lawyer in the field of publishing. Is the contract just for this book? Or a series?
You may need to get some advice from a lawyer in the field of publishing. Is the contract just for this book? Or a series?
Justin wrote: "You guys gotta hear this..For those who dont know my Publishing company is PublishAmerica( yes I know already save the they suck and will scam you comments) anyways, I went over my book several tim..."Justin, you have to see it from the publisher's side, too. I had a similar, but probably smaller, problem with my book. I realized that there is a substantial cost in typesetting and otherwise preparing a book for publication, (unless you are solely e-publishing) that would probably need to be duplicated for what ought to be minor alterations.
It's probably a cost/benefit question.
The lesson is to check, double-check and re-check your proofs BEFORE final approval. Don't let your enthusiasm to get into print blind you to what must be done.
Phil
Experiment wrote: "So one of the stigmas with non-mainstream books is the poor quality of editing or the absence thereof. I wonder why. Where and when did this prejudice started? How did it came about?I don't reall..."
We live in an instant world -- instant coffee, instant, frozen dinners, etc., etc. Why should we be surprised that corners are cut, part of the sacrifice to the need for speedy publication?
I've read a lot of books by major publishing houses with obvious editing errors. If they, with all their resources, can miss things, it's not surprising that small and/or self- publishers leave errors too.
I know self-editing is one of the most difficult tasks an author faces, but it's a very necessary one. You can't rely even on "experts" to find every mistake needing correction. The cost of providing that sort of editorial service would be prohibitive to most indie authors.
These days, the author must take some of the responsibility for their mistakes, too.
Phil
C.D. wrote: "Because an author usually reads a manuscript many times, they won't catch many errors. But every author should have at least one other person go through their manuscript before submitting it.Pro..."
True, C.D. That's why it is so important, when you finish that novel, to put it in a drawer for at least a month before coming back with, hopefully, fresher eyes. No matter how many times you re-read and edit while you're writing, there are always improvements to be made.
The other thing, perhaps, is that you can in the final analysis rely on nobody but yourself. If your standard of language, punctuation and grammar is not up to scratch, your novel never will be. Don't be too proud to go back to school, or at least read a few books on the above-mentioned topics.
A well-written (and edited) novel is an education in itself for struggling writers -- a badly-written one perhaps even more so.
Phil
Phil wrote: "Experiment wrote: "So one of the stigmas with non-mainstream books is the poor quality of editing or the absence thereof. I wonder why. Where and when did this prejudice started? How did it came ab..."I agree with you Phil. I hired a professional editor for my novel and then found many errors in the final edit after submitting it to the publisher and getting a proof back.
I think editors can fall into the same category as seeing a work too much and then missing errors due to familiarity of the work.
In hind-sight, I should have hired a new editor to do my final edit, but now I have a beta reader, 7 proof readers, and a final editor.
There is still bound to be errors, but the more passes a piece gets, the chances of errors should drop significantly.
Good Luck all and Happy New Year!
C.S.Yelle
I know how important editing is and I often find my thoughts on the subject varying.
My first novel I received some nice feedback but also some criticism regarding the editing. I don't think it is THAT bad but it definitely could have been better if perhaps I was not blinded by my excitement about getting my first book published and I wasn't so trusting. I had a professional publisher and editor and learned a difficult and fairly expensive lesson. I have to blame myself just as much, if not more.
My second novel was edited by someone new, someone I knew pretty well and trusted, I paid more attention myself and even had a beta reader take part in the process. I think things improved a bit and I am still learning.
My first novel I received some nice feedback but also some criticism regarding the editing. I don't think it is THAT bad but it definitely could have been better if perhaps I was not blinded by my excitement about getting my first book published and I wasn't so trusting. I had a professional publisher and editor and learned a difficult and fairly expensive lesson. I have to blame myself just as much, if not more.
My second novel was edited by someone new, someone I knew pretty well and trusted, I paid more attention myself and even had a beta reader take part in the process. I think things improved a bit and I am still learning.
Mark wrote: "I know how important editing is and I often find my thoughts on the subject varying.
My first novel I received some nice feedback but also some criticism regarding the editing. I don't think it is..."
Read this thread too, re: creative reviews editors:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
For my next novel, I now have a developmental editor, Teresa Edgerton, two beta readers from this group and I'm looking for copy proofers through the above link.
I've been happy to tackle short stories and novellas (my husband has a certificate in writing and editing, so he has been able to help me--now he's too busy on our farm), but I won't risk a novel on my own.
The traditional publishers provide a team to whip the manuscript into shape. I think the indie world is rapidly developing its own team!
I'm very impressed by the way everyone helps one another. This thread and the one that Cambria opened for Beta Readers, are a great example. There's going to be an explosion of high quality books from indie writers in 2012!
My first novel I received some nice feedback but also some criticism regarding the editing. I don't think it is..."
Read this thread too, re: creative reviews editors:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
For my next novel, I now have a developmental editor, Teresa Edgerton, two beta readers from this group and I'm looking for copy proofers through the above link.
I've been happy to tackle short stories and novellas (my husband has a certificate in writing and editing, so he has been able to help me--now he's too busy on our farm), but I won't risk a novel on my own.
The traditional publishers provide a team to whip the manuscript into shape. I think the indie world is rapidly developing its own team!
I'm very impressed by the way everyone helps one another. This thread and the one that Cambria opened for Beta Readers, are a great example. There's going to be an explosion of high quality books from indie writers in 2012!
I can't believe I missed seeing this thread (Thanx to Georgina for cross linking it elsethread)The question of editing--what exactly the activity is--and whether it matters for the success of a book is a topic very near and dear to my heart.
@Bob, I have to applaud you for noting that PR firms have very deliberately lied to make money for their clients by trying to claim that the Indie Authors are being "unprofessional" and that's why "their books" are not edited. I have to take exception, however, to the implicit corrollary that traditionally published books--even those of NYT Best Seller's List authors!--are actually "well-edited." They are not. Definitely not.
I cannot count how many times I've been reading a paperback book from a traditional publisher, and not only run across poor grammar, but what are obvious typos. At least, I hope those are typographical errors and that no one in these publishers' offices actually believe it is correct to spell things that way or to use the incorrect word that way. I hope it's just a matter of the so-called "copy-editor" being an unpaid intern who simply had no clue how to do the job.
Sadly, that still does not explain how the alleged "NYT Best Seller's List" author, herself (or himself) failed to actually correct the errors on the galley proofs. I mean, publishers DO still send those out for a 30-day review last I heard (smirk)
I won't even get started on the fact that if an actual editor had read some of these books and planned on editing not marketing the book, they might have noticed little things like, oh, technical errors of fact or internal chronology inconsistencies like a character's NAME changing from one paragraph to the next or one page after being introduced. It's kind of hard NOT to notice those things as a reader. Surely an EDITOR would have! But no.
So when it comes to editing my own work, I'm kind of picky. I know what needs to be done, and I know how I want it to be accomplished. Having inputs from others is critical, but no one else--not even someone claiming to be an "editor"--can actually write my book for me. As an author, especially an Indie Author, it is my responsibility to actually deliver an engaging concept with believeable characters (whose names, eye color and other traits do not change from moment to moment unless they are actually a chameleon *chuckle* and I don't write fantasy genre so none of those traits should be changing) and an internal sequence of events that moves my characters from a beginning through a middle journey and arrives at The End with a satisfactory explanation of how we got there. And the story should, in fact, END when we arrive at The End. OMG, I can't believe how many books don't end after the story's over!
Proofreading (which is correcting typographical errors and NOT changing any content) or line-editing (which is what I call "wordsmithing" since it entails changing a word here or there, polishing at a sentence-level and not actually affecting plot, but rather, the line-level delivery of the plot's effectiveness) are activities for which assistance is enormously helpful. These people are critical to the publication of a book which will not get complaints from readers of a "lack of editing." Typically, readers--paying customers who see the book after it's been published--don't really mean editing, but rather, proofreading and line-editing. They typically just don't like reading along and "stumbling" over something which says to them, the author just couldn't be bothered to read their own book.
Multiple Readers--I call them First Readers, Cambria calls them Beta Readers, you can call them devoted readers--before publication or wide distribution are definitely a key to success. These are the ones who get an ARC (Advance Review Copy) and can even oftentimes offer great publicity quotes in their feedback. They are the people who are willing and interested in reading your book and helping to polish it without actually telling you how to write it. They are the people who support you without trying to control you or your book.
I've found that people selling "editorial" comments (whether as an "editing service" or reviewer) often try to control and don't actually offer to collaborate or just offer information and walk away, letting you, the AuthorGod, decide for yourself what to do with that information. It's a rare thing to find an "editor" who can actually collaborate with an author. THOSE are the ones you see thanked in the Acknowledgements page of a Best Seller's book--ones where you do NOT find typos and glaring, obvious mistakes.
I have not worked with many of the members of Creative Reviews who are selling "editorial" services but I've interacted with several of the folks here and have worked with a few who've been incredibly helpful and definitely NOT controlling. I think there are a rare bunch of editors here who are actually capable of editing, not controlling, not merely marketing and calling it "editorial" work but EDITING, helping the author deliver that solid story with believeable characters and a beginning, middle and end that leaves a reader with a positive reading experience at The End.
If only the traditional publishers really WOULD provide a team to whip a manuscript into shape the way some of the Creative Review team here can do! (haha)
-sry
@CS - looooove your stats there I have a beta reader, 7 proof readers, and a final editor. That's the way to do it! I try to have at least a handful of proofreaders and one or two First Readers--sometimes some people can do both! I let the First Readers see the book first ;-) Then I generally send a PDF to the team of proofreaders and ask them to insert stickies where they see typos. I don't see the point in proofreading if I'm still editing. Just touching the work introduces an opportunity for a new typo.
I've been told by my First Readers that they are quite amazed at how I can "fix" something without actually changing the story--or change the story without actually losing the gems.
Editing is an art form unto itself. It is about as different (for me) from the writing process as it can get. The only thing more extreme than editing is proofreading (and NOT wordsmithing, line-editing, JUST proofreading). That utter dearth, total absence of any or all creative decision-making while reading is very hard for an author. That's why I enlist proofreaders, and to be honest, most of the time, they feel comfortable proofing but not at all with the activity of suggesting creative fixes, so it all works out to be balanced.
For me, writing is CREative while editing is DEstructive. They're not quite opposites but close. For me. I love doing each activity but I cannot do both at once. I have to totally shift my mindset from one to the other to be successful at either.
Georgina wrote: "Cambria has started the thread for Beta Readers!http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7..."
Thank you for starting this thread, Cambria!
Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "@CS - looooove your stats there I have a beta reader, 7 proof readers, and a final editor. That's the way to do it! I try to have at least a handful of proofreaders and one or two First Readers--..."
I understand your view of the creative vs. the destructive when talking about writing and editing. I approach the editing as a "rethinking" of the story especially when my points vary throughout the manuscript when they should line up neatly. It is less of a creative mindset as to a fixing mindset. That is why my beta reader is so valuable to me. He doesn't even look for typos, but concentrates on plot, theme, and areas of inconsistant character behavior.
Once he has gone through it 2-3 times, then I send it to the readers whose job is to concentrate on errors. After they are done, the final editor (who is paid) gets a crack at it. I hope at this point, his time will be well spent polishing and not finding the obvious issues.
I have come to enjoy the entire process, but I understand how editing can be hard.
@CS, yes! Fixing, exactly. That's why I can't do both activities at once. I have to really distance myself emotionally in order to view my "precious snowflake" as in need of fixing (haha)According to your terms/description, I'm my own "beta reader" but I definitely do the same looping repetition, asking my readers to go through ONLY looking for xyz types of things. I have a list I send them (voice of the narrative consistent? characters behaving "in character" or in need of "history" for motivation? do I get from A in ch 2 to B in ch 9 sensibly? etc.)
Then once all of those content edits for plotting and real nuts and bolts are done, I ask them to read for pacing, cover to cover, non-stop, or only stopping long enough to insert a sticky at the word where they "stumble" Some of the better readers can even record the thought they had when they got jolted out of their "reader's trance" but I'm more interested in them marking than explaining and then they can discuss it with me. But really, if a reader tells me "it was this sentence....." and copy/pastes the sentence, I'm pretty quick to see why they would stumble. I have to have someone point it out to me. Some of my work I could recite verbatim I've read it so many times, you know?
Then at least a 3rd pass by the same readers if they want but definitely but separate people who are ONLY looking for typos, definitely. I like to keep the opinions and the typos separated, like you do. It's just too hard for anyone, especially a writer, to separate opinion from actual errors. Plus like I said earlier, no point correcting typos/errors when there are more edits to do.
I'm not sure what your final editor is doing if not "all of the above" to earn that money but paying a reader to guarantee formatting or whatnot might be worth it. I am blessed with two proofreaders who love my work and are meticulous about finding things like a straight quotes versus a curly quotes and other tiny little typos that I never ever see. They amaze me sometimes with the stuff they find! I need the stickies to find their stuff.
Anything more you can say about what the paid editor does that is different from the earlier readers?
-sry
C.S. wrote: "Sarah, the Webbiegrrl Writer wrote: "@CS - looooove your stats there I have a beta reader, 7 proof readers, and a final editor.
That's the way to do it! I try to have at least a handful of proofr..."
I spent years regretting my decision (on the advice of my agent) to decline a bid from a publishing house (on the first novel in my series). But looking back I can't see how they could have whipped that manuscript into shape!
I've since rewritten it several times, entire characters were duped, vast amounts of writing consigned to my drafts folder (which has files titled 'They Call me draft' 'Another Draft', 'Draft, Draft, Draft', the list goes on). And I finally untangled the mess that I'd somehow managed to call 'the plot'. I had to get to that point myself.
So really, I'm thankful that early draft wasn't published. I can't see that I would have looked back on it with much satisfaction (and meanwhile I'm a free indie writer!).
I do enjoy the process, but not while it's all in pieces and I'm struggling to comprehend the problems and how to solve them. Then, when everything starts to fit into place, that's a lovely feeling. I agree with Sarah, I have to be in a completely different mind-set for editing. And I'm a moody writer. Writing going well--spring in my step, everything is rosy. Struggling with something--I'm growly and vexed and not much company.
That's the way to do it! I try to have at least a handful of proofr..."
I spent years regretting my decision (on the advice of my agent) to decline a bid from a publishing house (on the first novel in my series). But looking back I can't see how they could have whipped that manuscript into shape!
I've since rewritten it several times, entire characters were duped, vast amounts of writing consigned to my drafts folder (which has files titled 'They Call me draft' 'Another Draft', 'Draft, Draft, Draft', the list goes on). And I finally untangled the mess that I'd somehow managed to call 'the plot'. I had to get to that point myself.
So really, I'm thankful that early draft wasn't published. I can't see that I would have looked back on it with much satisfaction (and meanwhile I'm a free indie writer!).
I do enjoy the process, but not while it's all in pieces and I'm struggling to comprehend the problems and how to solve them. Then, when everything starts to fit into place, that's a lovely feeling. I agree with Sarah, I have to be in a completely different mind-set for editing. And I'm a moody writer. Writing going well--spring in my step, everything is rosy. Struggling with something--I'm growly and vexed and not much company.
I don't really understand it. Authors are readers too, why would they think any different that readers will put up with a poorly edited book? So I have to wonder why. Questions like these goes through my mind: Are the authors lazy or do they have poor editing skill? If so, why not get a friend to do it? Better yet, why not hire a professional? Or is the service expensive? How expensive? If truly expensive, this leads me back to my previous question — why not get some friends or knowledgeable beta-readers to do it? Or are the authors too anti-social to know anyone?
Authors, please share your thoughts on your editing experience and beliefs. When did you stop thinking in reader-mode and more in author-mode? Is there such a distinction?
(BTW, this isn't a reaction to any event or book I experienced lately. I'm just a nosy, uh, inquisitive person.)