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January Outlander Reread - See post 642 on page 13 for this weeks TOPIC!
i figure both of them, at least to me, have a free pass during the war, they both did wrong...actions after the war, that's a whole different kettle of fish
True...and as far as Claire over reacting with Frank, I think she tends to do that ALOT....overreacts...lol. I think Jamie seems to know how to 'control' her or handle her better than Frank did.
May be each weeks question needs a new post as this is getting complicated to follow?
Carren wrote: "Call me old fashioned, but if you kiss someone you shouldn't be kissing, then what's next? I'm married 33 years and truly the only man I've kissed in those 33 years is my husband.Now having said ..."
I agree completely, Carren!
Dee, She said that they had been married for 8 years but for 6 of those years they were separated by the war. It sounded like maybe a year and a half into their marriage they went off to war. And I also agree that they both should get a general free pass because of that 6 year gap. It is definitely what happens after that defines them.
i'm not doing the re-read...too much other stuff going on right now...and its been a while since I have (yeah, i'm slacking I know)
Wendy F wrote: "Carren wrote: "Call me old fashioned, but if you kiss someone you shouldn't be kissing, then what's next? I'm married 33 years and truly the only man I've kissed in those 33 years is my husband.N..."
I totally agree as well. Yes being separated would be hard but not to me an excuse.
LOL, it's cool. I totally get it, it's cool that you're still chatting with us.
I think that the hardest transition would be the lack of hot water. I am cool with the work cause there is ALWAYS something to do, the outhouse...I have been deployed twice and had to acquaint myself with porta-pottys its not a big thing anymore. But yeah I think hot water would be my big thing.
I have gotten to the point in the book where, each time, I flinch and my stomach starts to gnaw at me: After Jenny's baby is born, and Jamie's been taken by The Watch. UGH! I dread this part of the book...When I first read it, I was FURIOUS! I couldn't believe that Ms. G had forced us through that experience. I couldn't imagine any good or any purpose, and I really despised her for making me go through that with Jamie and Claire. In hindsight, of course, I realize how awful and yet how beautiful it is - in its awful way. While I wish it hadn't been necessary (at least not the worst of it, anyway), I see how it made Jamie into who he became AFTER... how it made Claire who she became AFTER... how she had the opportunity to explore her faith, something she really hadn't done to that point in her life... and how it bonded the two even closer than they were before.
On a different note: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO DIANA GABALDON! If I get the chance to ask her a question, I'd like to ask her why birthdays aren't mentioned in any of the books beyond the dates. While Jamie wishes Claire a happy birthday in this book, we never hear about birthday greetings or any special celebration for birthdays. I wonder if birthdays weren't really celebrated much then (or in the Highlands, with its harsh realities) or if they just weren't part of the story that Ms. G wanted to tell... taken for granted that some sort of special dinner or celebration took place? I know Jamie's not a big one on gifts, and Ms. G does talk about Hogmanny being more important that Christmas (is that a spoiler?). But she never addressed birthdays. Anyone know the answer?
Lori wrote: "I have gotten to the point in the book where, each time, I flinch and my stomach starts to gnaw at me: After Jenny's baby is born, and Jamie's been taken by The Watch. UGH! I dread this part of the..."I wouldn't say that I despised her for making me experience the dread and despair, but I was definitely upset. When he first leaves the prison, I actually thought maybe he had survived unscathed and I remember feeling this huge sense of relief, like I had been holding my breath through everything up to that point. When DG enlightened me about what he'd actually suffered, I just felt sick and angry and kept thinking, WHY? In retrospect, I think the whole experience makes them much more realistic characters. Terrible things happened to them and they managed to survive it by trusting each other. It's a much more meaningful statement about good triumphing over evil and love conquering all. And it gives you a lot more to think about that "and they lived happily ever after."
It's hard to read our Hero's and Heroines going through such horrible violence. I think I was so used to reading books where they were saved in the nick of time, that the first time I read this I was just so shocked.
I listened to Outlander as I have a very long commute to work, and listening to the narration was positively heartbreaking. I just cried and cried all the way to work :(
I remember reading DG's explanation for the torture. She said his sacrifice wouldn't have had such weight if he'd have been saved in the nick of time, like it was an act without consequences. Then she said something about threes, it was the third major conflict in the book or something, and there was something else I can't remember.I'll try to find it.
Mary wrote: "Lori wrote: "I have gotten to the point in the book where, each time, I flinch and my stomach starts to gnaw at me: After Jenny's baby is born, and Jamie's been taken by The Watch. UGH! I dread thi..."Mary - I agree, the whole horrid experience makes Jamie & Claire and their story that much more real. Probably why so many are so proprietary and protective of them and their story! And it *is* a choice, sometimes - in order for good to triumph over evil (especially in this story), people have to CHOOSE to keep going, despite the pain and horror. They have to CHOOSE to not allow the evil to win.
Mimi wrote: "I remember reading DG's explanation for the torture. She said his sacrifice wouldn't have had such weight if he'd have been saved in the nick of time, like it was an act without consequences. Then ..."I like that, Mimi - makes sense. Sounds very Diana Gabaldon! And she's right: Jamie & Claire hold onto that sacrifice for the rest of their lives. It would have been too "fairy tale/HEA" to save him in the nick of time... not matter how much I was hoping that Claire would find a way to do it.
And we likely wouldn't have had the conclusion at the abbey in France, which is healing and soothing - to both Jamie & Claire and the readers!
I am now about 70% through the re-read, and as I mentioned a week or so ago, listening for the first time. I like the narration, and voice, but still find myself going back to print (kindle or book, depending on where I am) when I can. Listening was great on our flight east...I could close my eyes and sit back and let it take me away. I don't think I could listen to DG on audio if I were driving. I like to savor it too much. Someone or several someones have mentioned thinking Davina's voicing of Jamie is the "right" one. I haven't found that to be so. I confess, my "vision" of Jamie is much more Liam Neeson than the younger (definately hot) versions offered here or on other threads. But I do like her voice very much.
Mimi wrote: "I remember reading DG's explanation for the torture. She said his sacrifice wouldn't have had such weight if he'd have been saved in the nick of time, like it was an act without consequences. Then ..."I read that too, Mimi. I thought it was really interesting, and I agreed with her. I think its what makes the book special. Not that I like torture, haha. What I like is that she wasn't afraid to go there.
I agree as well, I didn't like the torture Jamie went thru etc but I think it made the story more interesting. And I think it was one of the things my sister and I disagree about the book. She didn't understand why DG went into so much details about it and the sex scenes in the book, etc All I can say is I don't have anything negative to say about it and that the whole book series was all very well written.
Carol L wrote: "I am now about 70% through the re-read, and as I mentioned a week or so ago, listening for the first time. I like the narration, and voice, but still find myself going back to print (kindle or boo..."I agree. I think she does a beautiful job with the other character's voices, but somehow, it just isn't "Jamie" for me. I can't get past the fact that her voice isn't masculine enough for Jamie!
Teresita wrote: "I agree as well, I didn't like the torture Jamie went thru etc but I think it made the story more interesting. And I think it was one of the things my sister and I disagree about the book. She didn..."The torture scenes WERE graphic, and that bothered me a lot, but I think that was the point. It wasn't supposed to be a comfortable moment in the story - it was supposed to be wrenching and awful. I think we are supposed to feel as Claire did - helpless and horrified.
It also made me feel less trusting of the author, do you know what I mean? She obviously doesn't believe in the typical happy ending, and she isn't afraid to make the readers struggle! That makes me nervous as I read the following books, but at the same time, I hope, hope, hope that love wins out, so I keep reading...
Mary, keep reading.
All I can say is besides being uncomfortable with what Jamie went through at the hands of Jack Randall, one of the parts that made me want to cry was when they were at the Abbey and Jamie asked Claire to leave him and that he would love her til day he dies but it would be better if she didn't stay with him. He didn't want to be touched and was so disgusted with himself. He told her to go back to her other husband. Even though he wanted her so badly he felt his bones shake in his body. That scene among many others after what Jamie went through were all heart wrenching but DG told it in such a way that it's hard to forget. And it's that love that Jamie and Claire share that keeps me wanting to read more and I look forward to each new Outlander book.
I trust her to leave us happy in the end.
You're all right, of course, the torture scenes were horrific and the aftermath, as well.I have to admit that I found the scene with Claire in the chapel at the Abbey, I thought, very spiritual. She really needed guidance to see her through the ordeal she and Jamie were going through. I grew up Catholic (school, church, mass, etc..) and while I'm not a practicing Catholic, the teachings still remain with me, in the very smallest regions of my being. Sometimes you have to put the practical aside and use faith to see you through.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Absolutley. If all we have to rely on is ourselves, we are doomed. My opinion. My experience.
anyone else voted in What Book would you like to live in? Some of the votes are very low so it would be easy to get Diana's books a lot higher up the ratings if you all vote.
You can vote for 100 books so you can vote for all of them individually.
Carren wrote: "You're all right, of course, the torture scenes were horrific and the aftermath, as well.I have to admit that I found the scene with Claire in the chapel at the Abbey, I thought, very spiritual..." Carren, I am also Catholic even though not a practicing one but I know what you mean.
And I love the way Claire never gave up on Jamie... How she helped him through his illness and helped him heal.
Terista, where is that question posted? Not well versed in navigating GR site beyond DG books.
Ann wrote: "anyone else voted in What Book would you like to live in? Some of the votes are very low so it would be easy to get Diana's books a lot higher up the ratings if you all vote.
You can vote for 100..."
Its at http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/42...
thanks Ann, i couldn't find the link... I voted :)
Wow Outlander is all the way down at #54 I am surprised by that. I voted, hope it helps. Thanks for the link Ann!
Fawn wrote: "Wow Outlander is all the way down at #54 I am surprised by that. I voted, hope it helps. Thanks for the link Ann!"It was a hundred and something when I found it so we have made a big difference already.
Mary wrote: "It also made me feel less trusting of the author, do you know what I mean? She obviously doesn't believe in the typical happy ending, and she isn't afraid to make the readers struggle..."Mary - EXACTLY! I think that was part of my angst during when I first read the book. If she allows THIS to happen, what ELSE? Of course, we have the answers to that for at least 6 more books in this series, right? In a way, it's freeing, because you know that if nothing's "sacred", that Ms. G will focus on writing the STORY; she'll stick to her guns and likely not allow herself to be swayed by the readers into making the characters or the stories into something they were never meant to be. But it is daunting for the reader (IMO) and a little frightening to know that if you continue to read, you agree to make the same journey that Claire and Jamie are on. Spoiler marked deals with Books 7&8 - FYI! (view spoiler)
Ann - I wonder if folks don't want to live in the Outlander books for that very reason... that Ms. G doesn't romanticize the time or place. As we've been discussing, doesn't sound like many of US would care to live there. I don't mind "living there" inside the books, but I wouldn't want to live there in real life!
Carol L wrote: "Terista, where is that question posted? Not well versed in navigating GR site beyond DG books." Sorry Carol L, are you asking me? not sure what question you mean...
Allen wrote: "another thing that I would miss if I went into the past would be watching Downton Abbey. :)I agree. I love that show and would hate to miss it.
I think that the most difficult part for me going back to the 18th century is not knowing how all the little day to day things were handled. I would be so afraid that I would be found out because I didn't know how to do anything.
Everyone has excellent points as why we should keep our feet in this century. One of my major pet peeves is body odor, & hygiene. Can you imagine kissing someone who has never seen a dentist? Or has not had their Spring bath yet?
Greasy hair, body odor, no teeth, that has to be a lot of charming to make up for that.
I suppose once you get used to it, and once you are a PART of it, it gets easier?? Yuk.
Hi Carol, Yes, I suppose. And Jamie seemed like a clean guy! But she easily could of ended up with Ruppert.
I read the scene where she was taken to Dougal & gang for the first time. The description given by DG of the men (and woman) in the cabin would have given me pause & happy we were all going for a horse ride for the fresh air. :)
I just started my reread today... Can I just say, I didn't know how much I missed Claire till I started my reread. I love that women!!This is my first reread and I already found so much I missed the first time around or have forgotten.
Dawn wrote: "Everyone has excellent points as why we should keep our feet in this century. One of my major pet peeves is body odor, & hygiene. Can you imagine kissing someone who has never seen a dentist? ..."
When I took music history they told us that the monks used incense in church partly to cover up the BODY ODOR that would have distracted from worship. They were sewn into their habits so could not ever bath. They put a garment over them for church. GAG. In all the movies people have dirt all over their faces back then.
Also, you have to get up at dawn, make your bread and grow all your food & make all your clothes. OUT HOUSES. No dentists. There go your looks.
Break a leg they might cut it off. Gangreen(sp) was common. Agree w/Burned at the stake--not fun.
One of the funniest lines to me is when (mild spoiler?) Claire gets her underarms waxed. She tells Jamie that she "feels and smells clean" for the first time in months. He looks at her strangely and says, "What's wrong with the way ye smell????"
I suppose you get used to it.
I think the body oder would be hard, but more then that would be the disease and bacteria. I have a thing about dirty mouths, it really grosses me out.Leea, you'll have to make sure to post your discoveries in here for us. I love reminiscing, even if I am almost finished reading it.
I have a few things to post...
1. Going back to the question of when did Jamie come alive for me... I realized now when it TRULY was... it was through the flashbacks of his youth. ESPECIALLY when they get to Lallybroch and him and Ian are sitting around and remembering. The story about Jamie's mouth arguing all the way up to the fence really had me grinning. I can picture him so clearly, like it's my own memory.
2. I absolutely love Jamie and Ian's relationship. It has it's ups and downs, but overall the love they have for each other is palpable. No matter how many times I read it I am touched by how close they are. (view spoiler).
3. Funny scene - Jamie swimming under the mill and losing his dad's large underwear. First, the image of a proud Jamie standing there in sagging britches just tickles me, but especially when he got out of the water and Granny McNair was sitting there and used it as an opportunity to get her way. Hilarious moment.
Wendy - I agree with your thoughts on Jamie & Ian's relationship. While he's such a good match for Jenny, I do think that my love for Ian has more to do with his loyalty and love for Jamie as anything else. Ian came alive for me through those golden, autumn days in Lallybroch. And that's the image of Ian that stays with me.LOVE the mill scene and those darned breeches!
I'm finally past the worst and into the end... and the healing. Every time I get to that point, I tell myself that it won't be so bad - I already know what's going to happen. And while it's never as bad as the first read, I'm always amazed at how bad it is, despite me knowing and trying to be prepared. I have to go through my own "breaking" and then healing all over again, with Jamie and Claire. How amazing, that words and stories and characters can do that to us!
But, this time, I think I found extra solace with Claire and Brother Anselem. I think I allowed myself to breathe through the darkest hours, and then let them go - not hold onto them. I felt more like Claire this time - able to find a balance of carrying and distance, and able to rest in her discoveries and solace of the Abbey.
It's such an enduring story! It never ceases to amaze me how this book can pull me in so deeply and hold me there for the entire story! *sigh*
It'll be tough, but I'm determined to wait for "Dragonfly in Amber" until the re-read here!
February will go fast, and before you know it March 1st will be here. I'm excited to read DiA will all of you too!I'm going to admit now that I plan to skip the worst of the end. I've read this book so many times that I don't really think it's cheating and I'm not sure I want to get up close and personal with Jamie's torture this time around.
QUESTION: This has bothered me ever since my first read of "Outlander".... During Jamie's torture by Jack Randall, is there any significance to Randall's calling Jamie "Alex" at the end and demanding to Jamie to tell him that he (Alex or Jamie) loves him (Randall)? Putting the rest into a spoiler, because it applies to DiA: (view spoiler)WHO IS THE "ALEX"? (view spoiler) Are we meant to know?
I can't help but feel as if I've missed something, and I've never quite been able to trace that thread.
AND (view spoiler)
Just curious... what are your thoughts?
I think BJR confused love with power. With rapists, it's never about sex, it's always about the power one has over someone else. A really sick and twisted individual.
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Outlander Series
Books mentioned in this topic
Lover Avenged (other topics)Dragonfly in Amber (other topics)
Timeline (other topics)
The Outlandish Companion (other topics)
Dee, Good point! Makes sense. Being separated for that length of time I think I can forgive both. That is a long time.