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January Outlander Reread - See post 642 on page 13 for this weeks TOPIC!
Can you elaborate on this - what sacrifice are we talking about (I've read all the books so they are a jumble in my brain)
Diane, I first wondered about the same thing. I think, it must be that Jamie promised not to fight the "advances" of Jack Randall for the promise of him saving Claire's life. And on top of everything else: What did this B do? Sent Claire out of a door leading to the prison's rubbish and scrap heap, where - I am sure of this - he knew she would be met by a pack of wolves. Even thinking of this makes me furious.And after all these "adventures" she had to deal with Dougal whose only concern was how he could get his hands on Lallybroch with Claire in addition as special treat. But then came rescue in the person of an admirer of Jamie's mother (do not have his name), in whose castle they not only found brief shelter but where Claire had to to set the bones of Jamie's right hand. I found this part even more upsetting than all the ordeals prior to it.
If we're discussing Jamie's sacrafice to save Claire from BJR -- He loved Claire above anyone else, sometimes I think, above Jenny. He knew that if he didn't bargain for Claire's life, she would die and he ultimately would die (either by the hand of BJR or the gallows) He knew if Claire lived, she would return to the stones and go back to Frank. At least she would have had some life to live.But to put it in some perspective, what Jamie did for Claire I really believe that anyone would do for the love of a child, husband, wife, etc...
It's a question that many of us can answer right away, but when it comes to the reality of it ... can you do it? Can YOU really sacrafice your life for someone else? It's often easy to answer the question when the possibility is often remote.
A mother would sacrifice their life for their child without thought. I believe for a spouse too, but maybe you have to be in that situation. I like to think I would.
Wendy F wrote: "Let's talk ending, What did you think about Jamie's sacrifice? The first time you read it, did you expect Diana to go through with it? And what did you think about Claire's actions afterwords?"That's a hard one. I guess...I didn't think it would actually happen. I thought the rescue would be concluded and that would be it. While I was surprised it wasn't so, I wasn't disappointed. Though reading it made me sad, it certainly made both his sacrifice and the book more powerful. And it truly showed the extent of his love for her. It didn't make me think less of Jamie, it made me think more.
As to Claire's healing ways. that part was a bit iffy for me. It was like an exorcism or something and I wasn't sure how in the hell that worked, curing him. Like it was a bit too much. Still, it's another raw moment and it brought my Jamie back. What's not to like?
some psychologists point out the best way to help someone cope with a trauma is to recreate the trauma in a controlled setting...which is kinda what I saw Claire doing
I believe what Claire did at the abbey was give Jamie his Power back. He was letting what Randall did to him eat at his soul. Randall used those words of Love and comfort that J & C shared to abuse him. It's always so hard to see him like that, without hope, broken and he'd given up.
I don't regret that she went through with it at all. I think that watching Jamie hurt made him feel more human to me. The thing about Jamie is that even though I know he's not, he FEELS real to me. And it's because he struggles, it's because we see him fall occasionally. He's not perfect, and that's what makes him perfect, haha.I agree with Dee, I think Claire was forcing him to cope with his trauma by reinacting it. It's also kinda what psychologists do with kids too, and the dolls. She gave him an opportunity to take control. I thought it was brave. I'm not sure I would have had it in me.
Dee wrote: "some psychologists point out the best way to help someone cope with a trauma is to recreate the trauma in a controlled setting...which is kinda what I saw Claire doing"Well, that makes sense...
Wendy F wrote: "Let's talk ending, What did you think about Jamie's sacrifice? The first time you read it, did you expect Diana to go through with it? And what did you think about Claire's actions afterwords?"Well... if I didn't make it clear here, I did somewhere on the group boards. I *hated* DG for taking me through all of that the first time I read it!!! I was so shocked and disgusted and... shocked! I really thought Claire, Murtagh, and the "boys" would rescue Jamie before BJR did his worst.
And while they did rescue him, Jamie had already made his ultimate sacrifice - the bargain for Claire's life. Which, if you think about it, BJR reneged on by throwing her to the wolves, literally! He had every intention of Claire dying anyway. I think the only reason he didn't torture Jamie with the thought that Claire was eaten by wolves is that Jamie would stop being a willing victim.
Jamie's sacrifice... wow! What greater love than laying your life down for another? Jamie proved in every way that he loved Claire and would put into action his commitment to protect her with his name, his body, and his life. He lived up to his marriage vows - "blood of my blood...." I was awed and horrified.
And after it happened, I really, really didn't want to know any details of what BJR did. That disgusted and shocked and horrified me, too. You've got to understand, "Outlander" was my first real foray into historical fiction of this nature; I typically didn't read anything other than the harmless PG "romances" or mysteries. So this book turned my world upside-down!
I have to admit that I didn't quite understand what Claire was doing at first. Then I realized that she felt the only way to give Jamie his power back was to make him fight - the thing he vowed he wouldn't do to BJR, as part of his bargain. So as others have already said, it was necessary sorcery. Claire used what she'd been told by Jamie and what she knew of both BJR and Frank to force Jamie to relive enough moments of the horror that he'd regain his power (and his manhood) by fighting back... asserting his will. Claire had to help Jamie rebuild that part of him that was blown to bits with BJR's cruelty - not just to his body, but to Jamie's mind and soul.
I still don't quite understand why BJR did and said all that he did. I don't know if it was just his horrible, psychotic, sociopath, pervert self of if he really wanted to supplant Claire in Jamie's mind and affections. Was it just cruelty to try to rob Jamie of decency or was it an attempt to replace Claire in Jamie's mind and force Jamie to admit to "loving" him?
Claire was incredibly brave; she showed similar strength of mind and character and insane courage to do what she did. She proved her wedding vows to Jamie by doing it; she proved that she chose Jamie. (And she refers to that in other books as one of the first times that she chose him - made her vows good.)
I was blown away by DG's writing and this story. I realized then and there that this woman wouldn't fit into any "formula" and wouldn't be afraid to assert her own storyline, regardless of convention or acceptance. I admired that, but I didn't like it - not until I realized that this story wouldn't leave me... that Jamie & Claire would always pull at some corner of my mind and heart.
Each time I re-read "Outlander", I cringe when I get near that part of the story. Sometimes, as in this last reading as part of the group read, I read every word. Usually, I skip around, because the horror and the terror are so well written, they affect me - physically and mentally. It takes awhile for those images and feelings to leave me. Which is usually when I find myself re-reading the other books in the series - typically, I follow "Outlander" with "Voyager", because I love that book second to the original story.
Very very well said Lori, and that's exactly how I felt the first time I read it. I was sick for Jamie. I prayed and prayed that they would rescue him in time.Now I look at it and can appreciate it for his honesty, because relastically people AREN'T rescued in the nick of time.
But I agree, it was painful to read and I'll happily admit to skipping it this time around. I couldn't handle it this time.
As far as BJR, I think that in his sick twisted way that time with Jamie in Wentworth made him fall in love with Jamie. You saw in DIA how (view spoiler).
Lori, Your sentiments are written superbly here! I couldn't agree more & no way could I have explained it as well as you just did. I will just say that when I read that scene I said (out loud mind) Why?! Why?! Why?! How could Diana Gabaldon do this/write this to/about Jamie?! My hands went up to my mouth in disbelieve. For the reasons you stated above, is why the Characters in the Outlander Series are so real and so ingrained in our hearts. Thank you for your post, I agree with Wendy. Really well said.
Much has already been said. I agree with a lot of it and belong to the group of people who were shocked that Jamie was not rescued as would have happened in most books.However whilst I normally love the detail that Diana goes into throughout the books in this case I wish she had spared us some of the details.
Violence bad language and sex are a part of these books but I really could do without the sexual abuse.
Sexual abuse is offensive and I don't want to read about it. Espescially in a book that has not given me any indication on the cover that this was in store. having got so far in to the book I could not stop but I really would have preferred that somethings not be spelled out so explicitly.
For this reason I have found it very hard to recommend these books to friends. Diana is my favourite authour so this should not be how I feel. But it is and I do think that she will have alieanated people with this inclusion. I certainly could not critisise someone who stopped reading the books because of it.
Yes its part of the story but sometimes we really do need less detail.
I completely understand what you're saying. It was explicit.Except, I think in order to really feel how Jamie would have felt, and to understand why he acted the way he did afterwards with Claire, you needed to read how brutal it was.
I know that there are other books I've read where something terrible happened, but we were only told it had happened, we did not suffer through it with the protag. At least for me, I cared less. In fact, in some cases I can even go as far as saying because I didn't get the full effect of the trauma, I found myself getting sick of the protag 'whining' about it. I had much less patience.
I think making it hurt us was kind of the point. How can we truly appreciate Jamie's struggle without living through the cause with him?
But, I definitely agree that it's brutal and shocking to read. This is why I made sure to bring it up for conversation at the end of the group read. I also know that I worry about that part of the book when I recommend it. I never know if I should warn people or let them be surprised because it is so jarring. I tend to always tell people that it's a brutal book in some ways.
Thanks, Ann. It is tough to know whom to recommend the books to sometimes. I usually do provide a warning, of sorts, so that those to whom I do recommend the book aren't taken as unaware as I was... as you were.Wendy, I appreciate having a forum like this - especially others who truly love these books and Jamie & Claire. When I raged before, you and others reminded me that Jamie's sacrifice had to mean something. And I did notice, even on my first reading, that DG didn't gloss over it all afterwards; time - Jamie needed it to heal, Claire needed it to heal, and we, the readers, needed it to heal. So I felt as if she didn't intend for the incident to simply be shocking or brutal - she had purpose behind it, even if I didn't particularly agree.
I think that Diana tries to put us in that characters skin, ya know? And it's DEFINITELY uncomfortable, it's hard on us. I mean, in Breath I still struggle with making myself read (view spoiler).So anyway, it's definitely an uncomfortable skin to wear sometimes. But I think it helps us understand what motivates the character.
Oddly enough, I just finished my reread of Lover Avenged so this topic is on my mind. The main character of this book was a blood slave, chained down and forced to allow a woman to feed from him (vampire). She used him sexually and gave him to men. It is another brutal book to read, but it just makes you love that character so much more.
This is why I think Diana did it.
I love talking with you guys, btw. I think that we have very mature and agreeable conversations even if we don't see things the same way. It's great that we can all get out our opinions and have honest 2-way conversations without offending anyone.
Abuse in any form is sickening. Knowing it's out there is one thing, reading about it in a favorite book is another.My feeling is that it needed to be told in detail so that we could really see what both Jamie and Claire went through. Suffer along with them and then to celebrate their victory in overcoming this enormous obstacle.
The first time I read Outlander, I was surprised that Jamie was not rescued. I knew from spoilers, though, that the details of his abuse would be forthcoming so I guess I had warning about it. Yes, it was brutal and horrible but not all novels are devoid of brutality. I was confused by Claire's "exorcism" the first time around, but upon a second reading it made sense. (view spoiler)
Added spoiler tag. Apologies I didn't add in the first place.
Wendy F wrote: "I think that Diana tries to put us in that characters skin, ya know? And it's DEFINITELY uncomfortable, it's hard on us. I mean, in Breath I still struggle with making myself read [spoilers remov..."I LOVED [book:Lover Avenged|5098079]!
LOL, me too Sandy! I love BDB, this is my third read.Thank you for amending your post and adding the spoiler tag. And I agree, it's funny because I got a friend to read it and that was one of the things she complained about. She said (view spoiler).
Wendy F wrote: "LOL, me too Sandy! I love BDB, this is my third read.Thank you for amending your post and adding the spoiler tag. And I agree, it's funny because I got a friend to read it and that was one of..."
Well, hardly everyone... (view spoiler)
Hell, it is everyone!
Are we doing Dragonfly in Amber in March?
Yes, we're starting March 1st, with the first topic question that following Sunday.I'll be archiving this thread and starting a new one. If anyone wants to continue discussing Outlander I'll be directing them into our normal Outlander book thread.
Mimi wrote: "Wendy F wrote: "LOL, me too Sandy! I love BDB, this is my third read.Thank you for amending your post and adding the spoiler tag. And I agree, it's funny because I got a friend to read it and t..."
RE: Everyone...(view spoiler)
Ian by BJR in DIA when he put the burn mark on him
Diane wrote: "Ian by BJR in DIA when he put the burn mark on him"I meant what happened in Voyager, with Geillis. I still think it was (view spoiler)
I agree with you Mimi.
Oh sorry you are right I wasn't thinking well and I agree it was rape. I still think Fergus should count too even though the story was not as involved as the others.
I think Fergus was too, even though he went willingly.
Speaking of this...I thought that Outlander really paints a poor picture of the British military. It seemed that every soldier was raping someone (J&C), deserting their office, stealing from the locals, and even some were very dim-witted. I wonder if this is offensive to the British readers...or is it just accurate, for the most part???
Mimi and Diane - my apologies... why I'd not thought of Young Ian and Geillis, I don't know. You're right. And Ian asks Jamie about if he'd ever lain with a woman against his will...As for the military question, I'd not thought about it Leah. But I suppose anyone in the military (British or otherwise) might take offense. But even Jamie acknowledges "the red man" (I think that's how he puts it) - the blood lust. Especially in that time period in Scotland, the English soldiers were encouraged to do anything and everything they wanted to in order to keep the Highlanders down. I think at that time, in Scotland at least, it was the way things were.
But it could be that DG was aware of that, and so she gave us Lord John? LJ has honor and nobility and he's a gentleman - even Jamie says so. Perhaps LJ, his brother Hal, and even Quarry are meant to show us another side to the British military.
I do love Lord John, Hal & Harry :)
it think its like with any book, you can't assume that the picture portrayed by the author is appropriate for all scenarios...i mean, if that is the case, all modern navy men would be uber sexy SEAL's...
Lori wrote: "Mimi and Diane - my apologies... why I'd not thought of Young Ian and Geillis, I don't know. You're right. And Ian asks Jamie about if he'd ever lain with a woman against his will...As for the mi..."
I am inclined to agree with your assessment of the military in Scotland at that time, and also so good that DG gave us Lord John, Hal & Harry.
Leah, I am right with you there!
Leah and Fawn, excuse me please: who is Harry?
This is our final full week of our Outlander reread! I know we do this a lot, but it's safe to say that I think it's our favorite thing to do.
Let's hear all those heartstopping, memorable or funny quotes!
oh boy... I can't wait to read them... off to find mine :) 
I'd like to Thank Wendy F. for all her hard work, coming up with the questions and keeping us on track. I've enjoyed this reread and I can't wait for Dragonfly in Amber to start in March.
Wile not a funny one, this one is very memorable:After quarter day, Jamie says to Claire:
"I've wanted ye from the first I saw ye - but loved you when you wept in my arms and let me comfort you, that first time at Leoch"
Who says there's no such thing as love at first sight?
Awe! You're welcome! It's been fun, and I love seeing how many people are popping in to keep up with the conversation. You're all good people! ;)
Lotte I think they are talking about Harry Quarry from the LJ novels.
When Jenny has the baby and Ian is a mess because he knows she's in pain. This quote always me teary...“I can bear pain myself, he said softly, but I couldna bear yours. That would take more strength than I have.”
Lotte wrote: "Leah and Fawn, excuse me please: who is Harry?"Lotte, Harry Quarry is a regimental colonel and Lord John's brother Hal's oldest friend. He is in the Lord John books including The Scottish Prisoner.
Wendy: will you be moderating the next book, as well?
Yeah, I'll be continuing to do the books and come up with the questions. Though if you guys think of a good non-spoiler topic, feel free to email me and I'll make sure to include it.
Lotte wrote: "Leah and Fawn, excuse me please: who is Harry?"Harry Quarry is from the LJG series, but he was also (VOYAGER)(view spoiler)
Leea wrote: "oh boy... I can't wait to read them... off to find mine :) I'd like to Thank Wendy F. for all her hard work, coming up with the questions and keeping us on track. I've enjoyed this reread and ..."
Yes! Thank you verra verra much Wendy!!!
Thank you all for reminding me of Harry Quarry. This name completely slipped from my memory. And a special thanks to Wendy F. who keeps this going - and so splendidly, too! Looking forward to March and DIA.But we are still in February and thus with Outlander. There are many touching quotations there, I want to end this with a funny one, though: "If the brothers MacKenzie have but one cock and one brain between the two of them, then I'm glad of my half of the bargain!" (Conversation between Colum and Dougal, overheardby Claire, chapter 24.)
Love chatting with you all about the books! Wendy, fab job keeping us chatting and on-track! Can't wait to discuss DIA!
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Outlander Series
Books mentioned in this topic
Lover Avenged (other topics)Dragonfly in Amber (other topics)
Timeline (other topics)
The Outlandish Companion (other topics)
I agree Wendy. I was shocked too when the rescue didn't come in time.