YA LGBT Books discussion
Book Related Banter
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Explicit content in YA books - how much is TMI?
I guess I should admit to being a bit sheltered as I've never left Aust. But I truly believe we can as adults show acceptence and diverity by introducing kids to different types of people through the various mediums available. We might be fighting predjudice and narrow mindedness every damn step of the way, but I define success as having shown 1 person that there is more to life than a narrow perspective. In the case above maybe the boys aren't well portrayed in the film version of rainbow boys BUT it's a damn good way of showing kids books are good.
I guess we as a global community have to work with in our communities standards and I should do well to remember that when I get on my soap box. . Sorry about the rant there. .
Hoong - what is the name of the film? Is it Rainbow Boys?
Byron, the movie is called "Rainbow Boys". In Thailand, gay is synonymous with trannies and effeminate men who wants to be "women". Gays are portrayed in movies and ads as ones to be despised or laughed at, so unless teenagers aspire to be comedians to despised or laugh (down) at, which is unlikely as teens are so fragile at this period to be accepted by their peers and adults. Asian teens are. I am sorry that I more I explain, I realize that it will be a very long explanation before you will understand as there is a cultural aspect and the closed-mindedness of many career "housewives" whose children determine their social status. I am American-educated but I have lived and worked here for thirty-five years; hence I know.
I'll hold my tongue (or fingers from typing more) now.
Hoong, I do understand. I'm a wee bit surprised though. I've had a couple of straight male Thai students live with in my house. They jave been and continue to be very accepting of me, to the point one of them keeps threatenimg to set me up. O_o ( Although I do recall his mother having a fit when he first told her about me - she has since changed her opinnion. )Hmmm bit we digrese from the topic.
I haven't seen the movie, but I should, seeing as I've read the books and met the author, who by the way, is an awesome guy to meet and talk to. That particular series is always getting checked out of the library, and we have more than one copy of each book, so I know kids are reading it. I thought the kids seemed realistic enough.
I find it funny that while we're here talking about effeminate men being more of a not so good thing, there are readers of adult M/M romance claiming we need more effeminate men in romance books. But I think it's true, that in most YA books gay teens are more effeminate and in adult romance the men do tend to be more manly. Oddness for sure.
Yvonne wrote: "I'm probably not completely understanding this but if you're saying is it OK for middle schooler to look down upon effeminate people, I'd say no, no matter how uncool it makes them and no matter w...""Isn't this part of an educator's job, to teach kids about the different people in the world and that not everything they think is cool actually is. I would think having them read about these people who they look down on and find out that these teens are not so different than them after all, would be a valuable lesson for them to learn."
Yes--it is--really it is BUT never was the statement that "Education begins at home." than here. With the teaching of accepting alternate lifestyles OR CULTURAL differences we educators spend a GREAT deal of time undoing what was taught at home--it is difficult to say the least. Parents truly have no idea how much their words and beliefs affect their children--NOR do they realize how much their narrow or bigoted words or beliefs can ultimately turn their children AGAINST them when truth is revealed. And to all my non-parenting gay friends--here is where being an understanding or open minded gay aunt or uncle is VITAL. If you have been brave enough to breach the closet, please spend your time teaching the next generation on how vile a place the closet is when it holds someone there out of fear or guilt and shame.
We are truly all educators--we must be--otherwise children and teens have no option but to listen to the loudest voice--and sometimes that voice is the bigot we all revile and despise.
Now, using Byron's words, I too will step down off my soapbox=:) Thanks for listening!
This may be very naive of me but isn't popular culture having any influence on Asian kids? It seems to me that gender bending, at least in the Japanese music culture is becoming more and more prevalent. Maybe it's just a Japanese thing? I disagree that American kids want to stand out. What they want is to be accepted for who they are. What I'm seeing in this generation coming up now, at least in my work with LGBT kids, is the move towards pansexuality or gender queer kids who don't feel the need to identify as either "male" or "female". The university my son attends will have gender neutral student housing next year for just those types of students.The Gazette
Singer Gackt
[image error]
This is kinda off subject, but I just finished reading Cake, and the red haired guy(?) in the first picture is now going to be how I see Xavier:).
Jordie.R wrote: "This is kinda off subject, but I just finished reading Cake, and the red haired guy(?) in the first picture is now going to be how I see Xavier:)."He's pretty isn't he? I'm reading the sequel, Cinder right now. So good.
Lori that's so awesome about the student housing! I think I went to college a few years too early. lol. And I think it's interesting that gender neutral is becoming more recognized with the kids and over all. Really awesome.I think you're right though, kids here just want to be liked for who they are, or they want to blend in so no one notices they're different, which is a sad thing, but is something that culture has bread in them. you have to be like the popular girls in order to be liked by them. Yeah, some want to stand out, but not every one of them.
Jordie.R wrote: "This is kinda off subject, but I just finished reading Cake, and the red haired guy(?) in the first picture is now going to be how I see Xavier:)."One more post about Xavier and then I'll stop hijacking this thread...Bartek Borowiec is who I picture.
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "Jordie.R wrote: "This is kinda off subject, but I just finished reading Cake, and the red haired guy(?) in the first picture is now going to be how I see Xavier:)."One more post about Xavier and ..."
Ooohhhhh, I like this one too, and I think this probably looks more like him. I think it's the hair. Feel free to keep hijacking the thread if you're gonna put up pretty pics,haha.
Can someone tell me who this stunning redhead is?He's amazing (and I am addicted to redheads with long hair)
Darkm wrote: "Can someone tell me who this stunning redhead is?He's amazing (and I am addicted to redheads with long hair)"
Lori says his name is Bartek Borowiec. Stunning is a good word for him.
Jordie.R wrote: "Darkm wrote: "Can someone tell me who this stunning redhead is?He's amazing (and I am addicted to redheads with long hair)"
Lori says his name is Bartek Borowiec. Stunning is a good word for him."
Thank you, I didn't noticed it.
I had Ca giving me a picture of him (which I uploaded) but I didn't know his name.
*drool*
Oh god... red heads.... ~drool~ (I say no more..)
Byron wrote: "Oh god... red heads.... ~drool~ (I say no more..)"nodnodnodnod
Jordie.R wrote: "Byron wrote: "Oh god... red heads.... ~drool~ (I say no more..)"nodnodnodnod"
I love not being alone in this :D
I don't think I've ever met two other people that like red, let alone 3!!!! I get soooooo much crap about that too...
One of my offspring is a redhead--and I adore them--I might add this fine young man is also droolworthy.
I don't know if red heads get teased as much as they do here (the word mercilessly springs to mind!) but there are obviously some out there who can appreciate it.. One of my earliest b/f's was a red head - I have fond memories of him. Suffice it to say we were both in High School, he went to a private school in the city, I went to a public school in the rural area - it wasn't going to last.. We are so far off topic right now.. o_o
Sorry everyone.. (glares at Lori - You know I'm easily distracted..)
To hell with the topic--more about the BF please! And thank you Lori--I may get some good stories off of your hi-jacking!
Sammy2006 wrote: "To hell with the topic--more about the BF please! And thank you Lori--I may get some good stories off of your hi-jacking!"Don't think it's really a story for here.. it would certainly meet the criteria of what's NOT YA..
I like this picture of him too. He really embodies the character of "Sex" in this one.
This is probably his most famous picture
I should probably add that the books we're talking about are not YA and have a lot of explicit content. There, I tried to get us back on topic :)
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "I should probably add that the books we're talking about are not YA and have a lot of explicit content. There, I tried to get us back on topic :)"Um, I like this topic better. I've seen the last picture, and yep, he's my new Xavier:).
Byron wrote: "I don't know if red heads get teased as much as they do here (the word mercilessly springs to mind!) but there are obviously some out there who can appreciate it.. One of my earliest b/f's was a re..."I am used to people not liking redheads, that's why I was so happy to see I wasn't alone.
Here they get teased (to use a kind word) mercilessly too.
I may add I have a redhead as husband and I'm very happy about this :D
Sorry Lori, back on topic!
And thanks for the pics!
Hoong wrote: "We need more writers like you, Jo! Michael Cunningham's A Home at the End of World deals with the gay character nicely. I find it done nicely." Thanks, Hoong. I'll have to check out that book.
On the rest of the topic...I think Japan may have been more influenced by Western culture (and vice versa) than other Asian countries. At least, that's the sense I get, though it's always possible that I don't know what I'm talking about...
I have read some YA books with effeminate gay male characters. I try not to write those. My gay or bisexual male characters are usually guys first, gay or bi second, if that makes sense. Though I did just write a very short story (posted on a friend's blog) about a boy who wears nail polish and "girly" colors/clothing to school, but he does that more because he figures if he's going to get bullied, he might as well really push the bullies' buttons, rather than because he's particularly effeminate.
I haven't read any, but I think Yaoi books have lots of effeminate men in them. That's just my impression from the book covers and style of stories people talk about and that's very popular in Japan. I understand that Thailand also has a very large gay scene. So I guess it all must depend on which Asian country we're talking about.
I guess my point is, even in those countries with the negative impression of gay men and effeminate men(which could be either gay or straight--don't forget that) I think if you can (safely) get kids to read a book with different types of characters like these and maybe get to change at least one mind or get them to think, then it would be worthwhile.
Also there's nothing wrong with being or writing about effeminate gay teens/men in a positive way.
A lot of the Japanese video games feature more feminine looking males, too. The Final Fantasy series is known for having a very androgynous looking male lead character, and more "manly" side characters. Even the villains are often very feminine, with long hair, feathered clothes, and lots of make up. Just google Sephiroth, Kefka, Vaan, Tidus, or Kuja.
Gackt (the singer) has also appeared in several of the FF games, on the soundtrack, AND as the model for a character named Genesis.
Gackt (the singer) has also appeared in several of the FF games, on the soundtrack, AND as the model for a character named Genesis.
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "I like this picture of him too. He really embodies the character of "Sex" in this one.This is probably his most famous picture
"
Okay, now, I know his name. Great. Now for goodness sakes, who is he? I mean, is he a model? an actor? a singer? I want to know where I can find more pics of him. I wanted to make Rafe a redhead, but...
And before anyone starts to have bad thoughts about me as the author of STG because all of my gay characters are NOT effiminate, here's why.Not because I don't love all my gay brothers. I love my effiminate brothers. No, I really love my effiminate brothers. It's just that all the portrayals of gay guys in the movies or tv are always effiminate. Think of Kurt on GLee. Think of The ROck when he played the gay gangster on "Get SHorty" or "Be COol". When he was alone he acted very effiminate, like when he was singing "STand by your man." It's not that I don't like that. It's just that I am not effiminate so I wanted to write about all the gay men like myself who happen to be masculine. I wanted to make a point that being gay has only one true characteristic-- being attracted to the same sex. everything else is simply personality.
I think that redheaded dude, Bartek, is incredibly sexy. There, I said it.
Meagan wrote: "^ It's like that in a lot of gay fiction I've read. Some men I know offline are effiminate (even though most of them are straight), but a lot of mainstream media seems to think all gay men are effi..."In m/m fiction I think it's almost too much the other way. The vast majority of the MC's are very straight in appearance and mannerisms - I have to admit that's the way I write them too (although I like all varieties), but you have to search to find the effeminate men (in fact there is list kept for those books, and it's not a long one.)
Meagan wrote: "^ All the m/m fic (including fanfic, graphic novels and manga) I read had girlish men. I have bad luck finding m/m fic where the men aren't effiminate. I haven't hit the motherload where the men ar..."Lots of cops and cowboys and truck drivers and so on. Let me know if you want a list. If you start with Josh Lanyon for mysteries or Jordan Castillo Price for paranormals you get great stories, mostly masculine heroes and the sex is not too hot and heavy, just nice.
I just finished my first coming of age m/m book.
Originally, I thought it was a young adult book. The protagonist is 18, just out of high school, and not yet in college. Excellent book, by the way. However, it had a LOT of sexual play in it. Penetration was behind the scenes, but everything else was in the open.
Though the book was fantastic, and I imagine the amount of sexual play was reasonable for boys, I'd feel uncomfortable presenting the book to my children (only my daughters are old enough to read YA).
Who in here has read The Zero Knot? Was the level of sex in it typical for a YA book?
This is not marketed as YA, although it has been labeled that way, and I think most YA books would not have anywhere near as much explicitness. (Possibly as much sex happening, since we are talking 18 year old boys, but more off page.) K.Z. Snow writes mainly adult M/M - this one straddles the line but I still think it's for older YA only. I'd let my 15 yr old daughter read it, because I don't censor, but she would find it TMI for her own tastes. TryRobin Reardon or Alex Sanchez books for a more typical YA level.
I definitely take the author's intent into consideration when I'm deciding whether I'm comfortable reading something or not. I read a lot of YA books about sexual abuse that can be more or less explicit, but the book is intended for awareness and support for the victims, and I'm fine reading it. However, I avoid books that use explicit sex just for entertainment. That's not much different than porn in my opinion. I think you can write a great LGBT book without having to be explicit, just like you can with any other type of book. If you ask me, explicit sexual scenes are more often than not just a cheap way to get a rise out of readers. Leaving them out and still creating a great story not only makes you a more masterful writer, but it makes your books more accessible to everyone, which means you can reach even more people with your message.
Haley wrote: "I definitely take the author's intent into consideration when I'm deciding whether I'm comfortable reading something or not. I read a lot of YA books about sexual abuse that can be more or less exp..."I agree. There are times when explicit content is part of the story although even then there is a limit to what has to be said explicitly, I think. But something like Target does have a place for the clear description of what happened. But sex intended to be arousing has no place in YA books. Enough description to show what the characters are thinking/feeling/doing, yes, but not described for the reader to participate in. However there are adult books with YA characters, which I think the Zero Knot is, and that standard is different.
MAGIC'S PAWN was the first novel I ever read with gay charachters of any kind when I was a teenager. I think I was 16. I am re-reading it now for the 4th or 5th time. A perfect example of the fade out, though at times I wished there had been just a little bit of showing and telling.
Byron wrote: "I've heard of the movie of Rainbow boys but never found it to watch. I suspect a film like that may not have been made for blockbuster cinema.. I don't really know what the characters being 'effemi..."I didn't even know there was a movie of Rainbow Boys! I loved the books in that series! One of my all time favorites.
Randy wrote: "MAGIC'S PAWN was the first novel I ever read with gay charachters of any kind when I was a teenager. I think I was 16. I am re-reading it now for the 4th or 5th time. A perfect example of the fa..."My daughter read those when she was maybe twelve (they didn't come out until I was almost 20 so I read them as an adult.) She liked the level of fade-out in them and it's nice to have books the younger teens can read and enjoy. (But it would be cool if Mercedes Lackey had written a m/m Valdemar book that was maybe a touch more gritty and just a little more on the physical side too for older teens. She has such a way with words.) Love these books anyway. And your imagination can fill in the details as far as you like. These are great examples of very accessible YA.
Randy wrote: "I didn't even know there was a movie of Rainbow Boys! I loved the books in that series! One of my all time favorites. ..."Mine too, especially the first two. Don't know if I'd want to see a movie. I had to work to ignore the covers because I had such vivid pictures of Kyle and Nelson in my head.
As far as I can remember she hasnever even had another gay charachter in any of her many books. That series was it. That always disapointed me because I love those books so much.I was just discovering myself as being gay and those books meant a great deal to me.
Randy wrote: "As far as I can remember she hasnever even had another gay charachter in any of her many books. That series was it. That always disapointed me because I love those books so much.I was just disco..."
I haven't either (although you can make Take a Thief into a m/m book with a little imagination and extension - been there, done that ;)
I have read the entire thread and now I think it is time to add my 2 cents.Most YA books are for straight girls. You can't go to B&N or whatever few actual book stores still exist. You can't find a single YA for gay or lesbian on the shelves. Online, sure. If you know what you are looking for.
When I was a teen MAGIC'S PAWN was recommended to me by someone who I believed figured out that I might be gay but didn't want to embarress (sp?) me.
If I get something published I want it to be what I would have wnated to read. A great story, lots of drama, romance and some steamy sex but not to excess.
Some guys want to reaad about the details and some may not. I did but couldn't find it.
Someone earlier mentioned the adult M/M books that so frequently turn to porno and I agree. The line is becoming so blurred. But so is the line with many straight author's books. Look at J.R. Ward & Sherrilynn Kenyon or Laurell K. Hamilton. That is some graphic sex! It's not limited to the M/M field.
Randy wrote: "I have read the entire thread and now I think it is time to add my 2 cents.Most YA books are for straight girls. You can't go to B&N or whatever few actual book stores still exist. You can't fin..."
In my B&N there is some. Will Grayson, Will Grayson is on the recommended table, all of Alex Sanchez and some of David Levithan are on the shelves, and occasionally a Robin Reardon.
And as a writer of sometimes graphic adult m/m I do comfort myself with the thought that the straight stuff is similar in range (I don't think I come close to as much sex in my books as Laurell K. Hamilton and she's on the front tables of the B&N.)
I'm not complaining, not by a long shot, please don't gte me wrong. I like some steamy man on man action as much as the next guy. I would just like a litle more story behind it from time to time. There is a time for sex and a time for romance. There are so many authors who seem to equate the two as the same thing.I haven't read your work yet but I will if you give me afew titles to look for.
Your B&N must be in a bigger city than mine.
Randy wrote: "I'm not complaining, not by a long shot, please don't gte me wrong. I like some steamy man on man action as much as the next guy. I would just like a litle more story behind it from time to time...."For my stuff, try
Like the Taste of Summer; that one is minimally steamy (a little though) but it's also free (either on my website, on All Romnace ebooks or here on GR), my favorite and short. If you like it, I have lots more adult work and some YA coming out.
My B&N is in Minneapolis suburbs. So yes, big city and a moderately liberal state.
Randy wrote: "MAGIC'S PAWN was the first novel I ever read with gay charachters of any kind when I was a teenager. I think I was 16. I am re-reading it now for the 4th or 5th time. A perfect example of the fa..."HAHAHA I must have had a VERY active imagination as teen when I read this series, I didn't need work that hard to get past the fade out..
BUT I don't think I can imagine Mercedes Lackey writing past fade out.. I think it would ruin/detract from the stories. I've read just about everything she's written, she's VERY good at putting romantic tension/attraction in with out needing to make it a part of the main story.
please note that I'm entirely biased towards Mercedes.. hehehe I <3 ML!
YA LGBT Books
Books mentioned in this topic
Every Time I Think of You (other topics)Message of Love (other topics)
Every Time I Think of You (other topics)
Amy & Roger's Epic Detour (other topics)
The Boy Who Lost His Face (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
David Lubar (other topics)Laurell K. Hamilton (other topics)
Josh Lanyon (other topics)
Jordan Castillo Price (other topics)
Robin Reardon (other topics)
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Isn't this part of an educator's job, to teach kids about the different people in the world and that not everything they think is cool actually is. I would think having them read about these people who they look down on and find out that these teens are not so different than them after all, would be a valuable lesson for them to learn.