Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
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A Dance with Dragons
A Song of Ice and Fire
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FINISHED: A Dance with Dragons - Spoiler Hell Within
ok. i just finished it yesterday.... like it was said before, major spoilers ahead!JON!!! WTF!!!! I was sooo pissed after i finished his last chapter! what was that? another Robb moment... If he dies, I will stop reading these books, I swear!!
Had to get that off my chest!
That was more like a Robb moment added to a Ned moment with a Renly moment thrown in for good measure.I guess we'll spend the next few years in reader's Hell wondering.
I mean really! That was just plain mean... As I was reading - one stab, second stab, third... he didnt feel the fourth... - i swear, i felt as if someone was stabbing me right into my heart... I was too shocked to react in any way...
I couldn't even write a review.
I agree, that was pretty shocking. I think that Jon put a little too much faith in the loyalty men of the Watch would have toward the Lord Commander, especially after what happened to the previous one, and their history of always protecting against the wildlings. That's not knocking Jon - he's one of my favorite characters. But, I will admit that I think he assumes men will do the honorable thing because that's what he's known all his life, living with Ned. I don't think he will die though. And I don't think that he will permanently enter anyone else's body (or Ghost's), like the warg from the prologue tried to. I think -hope- that something will happen to save him within his own body. Maybe he'll enter Wun Wun and lay the fucking smackdown on some traitors. ;)
I'm really beginning to wonder what GRRM has against the Starks though...
I honestly think that, even if Jon dies, Melisandre will give him a new life. I know there are more Starks left out there, but Rickon is till very young, Bran has now found his place, for Arya I hope she comes back to Westeros soon... I can say I don't really care about Sansa at this point, but Jon seemed like the only hope. Like the only one that might be able to get Winterfell back from Boltons... And if he died and will not be back... Then my enjoyment of the books will change... I will still love them! And read them! but it will never ever be the same.You hear me GRRM!!! Do not kill Jon!!!
So, I have a question. I apologize if it was obvious, but I was finishing the book on a 15 hour trip and then a day after being extremely out of it. We all know this is all about spoilers, but still I will mention it. The part where Semly is talking about the girl he loved that threw herself of the tower after losing her daughter... Is it just me, or was that girl supposed to be Ned´s ˝lover˝and Jon´s mother? Because he mentioned that if he had won that tournament that he would pick her and then she wouldn't think about Stark...
Becky wrote: "I agree, that was pretty shocking. I think that Jon put a little too much faith in the loyalty men of the Watch would have toward the Lord Commander, especially after what happened to the previous ..."I like the Wun Wun idea, but it wouldn't be a good permanent solution. Maybe that's how Jon saves his own life or something, but Jon pretty much has to survive as Jon (not as a ghost or warg or whatever) or.... well, he just better, is all I can say.
Maja, you're correct. That's Ashara Dayne, sister to the legendary Kingsguard member, Arthur Dayne.She was supposedly or rumored to be Ned's lover at one point, and one of the theories floating around is that she's Jon's mother. That's a readers' theory though; I don't think I've seen it actually suspected in the books.
Ashara is supposed to have killed herself in her grief, said to be because her brother was killed during Robert's Rebellion by Ned himself.
Ambimb, I don't think the Wun Wun thing would be a permanent solution either. Just long enough to save his body and get help, perhaps. But I agree with you. Jon better not die. He just better not.
Nicki wrote: "In that scene, does anyone remember if Selmy actually says which Stark he's referring to? Because I have it in my head that he doesn't actually say it's Ned..."Hmmm...I don't think he did. GRRM could be catching us in an assumption.
Nicki wrote: "My theory: [spoilers removed] I'm probably way off mark, but it just seems very GRRM-like, in that all the clues seem to point one way but are still (so far as I can remember) perfectly accurate if..."I agree. That seems more likely to me.
Nicki wrote: "My theory: [spoilers removed] I'm probably way off mark, but it just seems very GRRM-like, in that all the clues seem to point one way but are still (so far as I can remember) perfectly accurate if..."And it would make sense if she leapt to her death (view spoiler) Or was she supposed to have done that because she lost a baby?
I had originally thought that Septa Lamore was possibly Ashara Dayne, but I've been rereading Feast for Crows and it's more likely an ex-baby momma of Oberyn's, mother to Tyene who is blonde hairded and blue eyeded and was got on a septa by Oberyn's. That falls into place better than my Ashara Dayne theory, who better to take Aegon than Rhaegar's best friend and Elia's brothers lady? (if it is really Aegon, that is)
Ok, so my question would be, if she threw herself of the tower for losing her daughter, how could she possibly be Jon's mother? And if she was Jon's mother, was his father then Brandon? Is it possible that Jon is Brandon's son?
I am just a little confused. It seems that that Semly part was trying to tell me something, but I might have missed the mark... Tell me if I am wrong...
I mean, I am not sure, I dont even believe it, but when Robert spoke to Ned at one point (long time ago) he asked him about his bastards mother and Ned said her name was Ashara... I am sure he lied, but that Semly chapter kind of totally discarted that... So we are back to square 1 when it somes to Jons parents.
There's a rumor floating around that Ashara is Jon's mother. I can't remember seeing it in the actual books, but it's a common theory.I thought Ned told Robert her name was Willa. I'm not even sure the affair between Ned and Ashara was confirmed, except maybe by Selmy's memories.
Yeah, he said her name was Willa, not Ashara. I'm firmly in the Rhaegar and Lyanna camp when it comes to Jon's parentage.
Dawn wrote: "Yeah, he said her name was Willa, not Ashara. I'm firmly in the Rhaegar and Lyanna camp when it comes to Jon's parentage."Yep.
I think it also makes sense to me that Ned told Robert the name "Willa" if it was really Lyanna. I mean, Robert went to war over Lyanna, and killed Rhaegar over Lyanna... If she was Jon's mother, and Rhaegar his father, telling Robert that so many years later would only cause problems, so he maybe lied. To save his friend hurt and anger... to save Jon from being a "Targaryen" in Robert's eyes.
I think that Willa was Jon's wetnurse, if she wasn't his actual mother. Or was she Aegon's? Or both...Wait. Wasn't there a baby Dayne too?
Becky wrote: "I think it also makes sense to me that Ned told Robert the name "Willa" if it was really Lyanna. I mean, Robert went to war over Lyanna, and killed Rhaegar over Lyanna... If she was Jon's mother, a..."That's really good logic. Wylla was a wetnurse so she would have had babies hanging off her like mad, who knew whos was whos?
Chris wrote: "I think that Willa was Jon's wetnurse, if she wasn't his actual mother. Or was she Aegon's? Or both...Wait. Wasn't there a baby Dayne too?"Wylla was Jon's and Edric Daynes wetnurse
Jax wrote: "That's really good logic. Wylla was a wetnurse so she would have had babies hanging off her like mad, who knew whos was whos? .."LOL. I just proved that theory with my confusion.
Someone met Edric Dayne at some point. Arya?He told her then that he'd been wetnursed along with Jon.
Jon being a Targaryen really just backs up Ned's continuous dreams and memories of Lyanna's last words, his promise to her Promise me, Ned, most likely a promise to keep yet another Targaryen safe, to keep Jon's heritage safe, especially from that lunatic, Robert.
Unless Jon wargs into a girl's body.*groan* Please, no.
I'm not following you, Nicki. Explain please?
We have a theory thread in here somewhere....where Jax and I introduced our idea of the third.
Well, there are theories for Tyrion to be a Targaryen (Aerys's sexytimes and/or rape of Joanna. but it's far fetched. Still..
oh yeah! man, i already forgot that one. I dont think that Varys would be the head of a dragon though..but how awesome would that be?!?!What if it were like..Jon, Tyrion and Varys?
(I hate Dany and wish she would die already)
I only like to believe in the Tyrion theory more than the Jamie/Cersei theory because too often GRRM says stuff like in GoT "The light throws Tyrion's shadow across the yard, and for an instant, he looks as tall as a king" and there are more little things like that involving Tyrion...
Hmmm... I feel like I need to re-read these again. Crap. LOL
Or, read them again, actually, since I've never "re-read" them.
Or possibly against the no reread rule that some of you have for this year? ...was that in this group?
It's next year... LOL No re-reads for 2012.
Oh, sorry. I forgot the slogan!
Haha... We're getting T-shirts made too. ;)
I totally want a t-shirt..even if I can't join the group
I don't know if we really are doing t-shirts, but if we do, you can have one. :D
Finally finished. Took a long time. A lot of it was boring, Dany, Tyrion, Quentyn blah blah blah.Maya wrote: JON... If he dies, I will stop reading these books, I swear!!
That's exactly how I feel. As long as they don't kill Ghost, Jon can go into him as a warg, then into a person eventually. The prologue confirms it's possible.
Becky wrote: I think -hope- that something will happen to save him within his own body. Maybe he'll enter Wun Wun and lay the fucking smackdown on some traitors. ;)
I'm partial to Jon's body. I'm in love with him. After they killed my Ned, Jon is the logical choice for me. I love a man with honor. Doesn't hurt that both are hot.
I thought about Wunwun, just to do the smackdown, but if he stays in him, that's it, my love affair with Jon is over. I'm a shallow bitch at times and this is one of them.
I'm with Nicki in Message 14, but it could also be (view spoiler) That was a friend's theory, not mine but it's possible. I've never thought Ned was Jon's father. Ever.
I was in the Lyanna-Rhaegar camp for a long time, but if it's true, then that knowledge died with Ned rendering it pointless and unable to confirm. If it is true, I think the reason Ned would lie and keep a promise to Lyanna, which would most likely be "keep my son safe', is that Robert wanted all Targaryens dead. He's never allow Jon to live, a Targaryen and product of rape on his beloved Lyanna. Not a chance.
I'm not firmly entrenched in any single theory on Jon's parentage, GRRM has a habit of making things appear one way when in fact it is something else.
Varys & Littlefinger seem to know everything, I bet one of them knows the truth of Jon's heritage.
And possibly Septa Lamore may know Jon's true birth. Wylla too.
Whatch yoo talkin' 'bout, Wylla?
"Watchoo talkin'bout Willis" was my facebook name for a long time.
Chris wrote: "There's a rumor floating around that Ashara is Jon's mother. I can't remember seeing it in the actual books, but it's a common theory.I thought Ned told Robert her name was Willa. I'm not even su..."
You are right! I got my stuff confused. Sorry!
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