Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
This topic is about
A Dance with Dragons
A Song of Ice and Fire
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FINISHED: A Dance with Dragons - Spoiler Hell Within
I think Brienne said 'Arya'. She knows Arya is alive and no one else does, including Catelyn. I can't see anything else staying her hand.Coldhands could be Benjen, but I would think Bran would have recognized him. The men at the Wall recognized the people they knew who became wights.
Jon's not dead. I think he'll go into another person's body as one of his warg abilities. Otherwise, what was the point of the entire prologue except to remind us what wargs can do.
THEY BETTER NOT KILL GHOST. I was crazy upset when Grey Wind was killed. I can't take it if Ghost gets killed. And I might have to quit the series. If Jon and Ghost are dead, then I'm done.
Sometimes the evil ones get killed, but far too often it's the good and honorable people that get killed. It's getting boring, really. I'm ready for some payback to the evil pricks populating Westeros.
Arya was my first thought as well, but I am annoyed that this story line was left hanging.I'm sure that Coldhands is Benjen. (view spoiler)
I know the men at the Wall didn't see Coldhands. I wrote that they recognized men they once knew who became wights, (not about Coldhands).You're right that he didn't show his face to Meera. I want him to be Coldhands. But most of the time, when we believe what's obvious in this series, it's wrong.
I'm more annoyed about (view spoiler)
Jackie wrote: "I know the men at the Wall didn't see Coldhands. I wrote that they recognized men they once knew who became wights, (not about Coldhands).You're right that he didn't show his face to Meera.
..."
I know I'll probably get lynched for this, but i kinda liked that GRRM didnt get deep into Brienne and Jamie, i'm really just further enticed knowing some really good action is coming up in the next book. That being said, Brienne could have just screamed "Sword" with the intention of finding Jamie to get him to help her save Sansa. It would be a bit out of character for her to break faith but after being *almost* killed (yet another, amirite?) it wouldnt be hard to see a change in character..as is the status quo.
My only problem with it being in the next book is when that book will be published.I'm having a hard time with Brienne's supposed change of character. Anyone else, yes, I could see it. Something major would have to occur for her to break faith with Jamie.
Oh, no, I mean she breaks faith with Catelyn in order to get out of her situation and goes to Jamie to help her to get Sansa.
Jax, Ah, OK, now I see what you mean. Either way, it is out of character for Brienne to break faith. Her first commitment was to Catelyn, but is Catelyn still Catelyn? I can see Brienne using that loophole to break faith with her; our Catelyn is gone, for all intents and purposes.
I think we could probably get by on technicalities with this one. Technically, Catelyn's first charge to Brienne was to save her daughters, so Brienne wouldn't technically be breaking the faith she's being hung for anyway, really, she's had the same goal the whole freakin' time, I swear by my sword!
If Catelyn wants Jamie dead, well, that can be dealt with later, right? after the daughter's are saved and Catelyn sees how Jamie helped?
I see what you mean about the technicality, that Brienne kept to her goals. I wasn't clear about what I meant. I mean Brienne has a choice to make right now, after Stoneheart let her live, and that is to bring Jamie back to Stoneheart where we know that bitch will hang him or Brienne can break faith with Stoneheart and save Jamie instead by telling him everything and not bringing him to the crazy bitch. About yelling 'Sword', I don't think that's a powerful enough word to stop Stoneheart in her tracks, she was ready to hang Brienne. It has to be a word that means something to Catelyn/Stoneheart, not only to Brienne. Catelyn knows nothing about the sword Jamie gave Brienne or what it would mean if Brienne yelled it out.
I think Stoneheart is too rigid to take the chance of Jamie escaping to go and save her daughters.
Well, she's told to make a choice, the Sword (get Jamie) or the Noose (die), i would think she chooses one of those words."She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose." (FFC - 915)
I read that as those were her choices and she had to choose one of them.
That makes sense. I'll have to go back and read it. As usual, I've forgotten more than I remember. What would I do without you, Jax?So...do you think she'll really kill Jamie? I'm having a hard time believing that she will. That's why I think, now that she's away from Stoneheart, she'll make another choice and break faith in order to save Jamie.
No, i don't. I think she goes to Jamie and gets him to help her get Sansa (which we see in DwD).After that it's a bunch of ifs and Brienne's in a dilly of a pickle!
-If they retrieve Sansa, does Brienne return her to Catelyn with Jamie or without? I feel that Brienne's character would force her to return with Jamie, sure that Catelyn would HAVE to accept that since Jamie helped save Sansa Catelyn would have to let him live. Then everyone would be happy, Jamie and Brienne would get married and have many babies ;)
of course, it probably won't happen that way cuz GRRM is a sneaky bitch!
I wouldn't put it past GRRM to put Brienne in such a quandry where they fail to rescue Sansa and now Brienne's seriously fucked.
I guess we'll see.
What do you think?
I would love for your scenario to play out, Brienne and Jamie happily ever after, but you're right about the sneaky bitch. I think GRRM likes torturing us by fucking with our favorite people.I don't know what's gonna happen but it'll probably be something cruel. But I don't see Brienne killing Jamie under any circumstances.
Just finished a couple of minutes ago. Loved the ending.
I've been waiting for Varys to do something since he first vanished after helping Tyrion escape. Very pleased with his return. Aside from that... Arya's good, so I'm good. Almost quit the series during that 'axe to the back of the head' scene with her and Sandor back in 'A Storm of Swords'.
And then there's Jon... I saw it coming since he kept ignoring Melisandre's warnings. I doubt he's dead, though. If he is... well then, fuck.
Can't wait for the next book. Looking forward to Aegon's attempt to take Storm's End and Arya's path to awesomeness.
I've been waiting for Varys to do something since he first vanished after helping Tyrion escape. Very pleased with his return. Aside from that... Arya's good, so I'm good. Almost quit the series during that 'axe to the back of the head' scene with her and Sandor back in 'A Storm of Swords'.
And then there's Jon... I saw it coming since he kept ignoring Melisandre's warnings. I doubt he's dead, though. If he is... well then, fuck.
Can't wait for the next book. Looking forward to Aegon's attempt to take Storm's End and Arya's path to awesomeness.
Kitti wrote: "I'm all for suspense and taking the long road rather than giving in to instant gratification. That being established, I have been waiting for about 2400 pages for Tyrion to reach Dany. .
Now, ..."
Ah, Saskatchewan, you may be a part of my beautiful country, but i refuse to ever be in you.
but, ye of little faith, believe in our GRRM and I believe that he will make with the goods.
I completed the 5 books in the last 2 months and I really enjoyed it. I like all the main and secondary characters with some exceptions: Here is my take on the best and worst story lines and why:1 Thrion:
Best character I have seen for a long time. Well developed, very witty, vain, funny character. I wish there were some tears/emotions after slaying his lord father, so I hope GRRM keeps up the “…where the whores goes” line. Why cannot Thrion be the main character/ hero? Because he is an imp? Because he is immoral in a vile world? Thrion’s is the only story line I would like to keep on reading if it came to that. I hope he gets the Casterly Rock or becomes the kings/queens hand at the end. For me Thrion is the real hero of the series because of all the odds set up against him and the way he manages to endure and inspire. Putting him to the support cast does not cut it.
2 Arya Stark:
Very interesting character. Girl assassin/revenge is not a unique story line. But the character is very well developed over the series and balances well with Sansa. Her list for revenge is getting shorter by the day so I hope when she returns to Westeros she links up with the Nymeria’s pack and becomes the scourge of the Trident. I wish she forgot about Jon Snow like the rest of her pack already. That storyline is too corny.
3 Daenerys Torgaryen:
Form rags to riches. Snow white or another heroine? Since this is a fantasy fiction series we need her for the dragon factor. Our inexperienced grace failed in her good queen strategy. Good comparison to selfish Cersei who ends up with the similar outcome in the absence of Thrion. Daenerys trials were interesting and her liberation/invasion of Westeros will be even more interesting if she can hook up with the Thrion.
4 Theon/Asha/Victarion Greyjoy:
I am a bit partial to this ironman faction. They have absolutely no chance of getting the iron throne but they are always busy and keeping us entertained. I will give them an A for effort. I am not sure about the wisdom of putting Asha into captivity then uniting with Theon. I guess Asha and Theon will plan and maybe escape to the Iron Islands for Theon’s claim over the Ironman. I hope Victarion has the IQ to make a pack with Daenerys with all the ships he captured at Slavers Bay.
5 Sansa Stark:
I heated her for the first 2 books but now I really like reading about her claim and chances in this game of thrones. With the mastermind Littlefinger she has a chance and things are getting interesting. I am not too happy about the abrupt/dramatic change from Sansa to Alaine though. Although she is my 5th choice for story line she could end up as my 2nd by the series end.
6 Jamie/Cersei Lannister
Great characters with unique “evils” and weaknesses. GRRM does a great job showing the difference between Cersei, Jamie and Thrion. Jamie was entertaining with Brienne and although he can be considered cruel he is chivalrous but lacks the overall vision and goal. Whatever you may say about her regency Cersei is trying to do the best for herself and her kids. Both Cersei and Daenerys dwell to much on fortune cookes though. Since Daenerys started it first Cersei should stop. With the death of Kevan Lannister twins are doomed and will not last to the end of the series.
7 Davos
Good character. Great counter balance to Thrion. His main function is to relate the story on the perspective of the ordinary folk of Westeos and he does an entertaining job. I hope he survives after that unnecessary Rickon Stark adventure.
I am neutral to:
8 Catelyn/Brienne
Catelyn was a good story teller for Rob and House of Tully. It was a good idea to get rid of her when Rob was murdered. She can transfer the kiss of life to Brienne if need be. Brienne is not very entertaining with her IQ level and her wild goose chase. I do not expect much from these two although I expect Brienne to hook up with Jamie to search for the Stark girls.
9 House or Martell. They do not add much to the story line and Dorne has little chance left in the game of thrones with the exception of Myrcella. That will not mean much when Daenerys returns to Westeros.
Now we are getting into the story lines I hate:
10 Samwell:
As the name implies this is a good Sam. He is a craven that develops balls on the way like all those inspiring stories we read as children (at least Theon Greyjoy/Reek had the decency to turncoat). Nothing new and interesting about this character or his adventures. Although he travels wide and far his vow keep him an uninteresting fat boy. My advice: stay in Oldtown and do nothing!
11 Bran:
Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Too much of a bad thing is bulls*ht. I never got a liking to this character from the start and although his lordship may be playing an important role for the overall development of the story line with his retinue, I am beginning to hate the cripple. Holdor does not make things easy for me either. Dragons and some ice monsters are enough for the fantasy part.
12 Jon Snow:
I know John Snow is showed down our throat as the “hero” but I hate the bastard. I say good riddance as of book 5. It is bad to speak after the deceased but he was a stale “hero”. He did not travel much and his adventures with the frozen zombies were with little suspense and adventure. Overall he acted like that principled idiot Eddard Stark and did not inspire me to turn the page. His goody two shoes attitude towards wildlings and crows is even more troubling. I will take Stannis over Jon Snow on policy any day and that is to say a lot. Stannis came up with the humane wildling policy and Jon benefitted from it. Take a look at book 5, half of Jon stories were about wildling/wall policies over and over again... Going back to my first paragraph, what makes this bastard a hero? Was anyone inspired with his shifting policies on wildlings over the 5 books? How about his change of action after Ramsay’s letter? He does not lift a finger until the last minute for the House of Stark then decides to face Bolton? Why would anyone follow him? Ramsay Bolton is a better bastard than Jon and his fate inspires more interest. Who cares if winter is coming?
In short go Thrion, Arya, Daenerys!
this thread has been really fascinating to read. love it. i really like reading all those theories about Jon's parentage. personally, i'm in the Rhaegar/Lyanna camp.i think Brienne shouting "Arya" is an original idea! i just assumed she shouted "Sword". but mainly i'm worried about Podric Payne. poor little Pod!
i am really looking forward to a Davos-meets-Rickon/Osha/Shaggydog & the cannibals storyline.
mark wrote: "this thread has been really fascinating to read. love it. i really like reading all those theories about Jon's parentage. personally, i'm in the Rhaegar/Lyanna camp.i think Brienne shouting "Ar..."
Cannot wait for the trainwreck that is Rickon.
no doubt he is having a delicious time with his new friends. he probably fits right in!
Seriously. Rickon was a wild-thing while in civilization. He's probably Prince Cannibal right about now, lol
Dragons & Cannibals vs. Others & Zombies in Book 7!
oh, forgot to add something after reading this thread...i think the reason that Bran hasn't identified Coldhands as Benjen Stark yet is because Coldhands kept his face hooded for the entire time they were together. i'm pretty convinced Coldhands = Benjen Stark. although for all i know, Coldhands could be Ashara Dayne. or a cannibal prince from Skagos.
Quick, someone tell GRRM Mark's awesome idea! lol
that guy never returns my phone calls! sigh.
'cause he's too busy writing blogs about football.
I don't think Benjen is Coldhands. Coldhands seems to be an older being.
I was surprised that Benjen wasn't the one they found in the cave. I was expecting that or Coldhands to be Benjen, but I thought I read something that made me think he couldn't be. I kept expecting him to pop up somewhere & was disappointed not to see him or Rickon at all. While he's too young to really be doing much, dropping him completely out of the picture seemed wrong, especially with the rest of the family doing so much.
Jim wrote: "I was surprised that Benjen wasn't the one they found in the cave. I was expecting that or Coldhands to be Benjen, but I thought I read something that made me think he couldn't be. I kept expecti..."but Rickon is like 4 years old or something, what could he possibly be doing?
This Benjen = Coldhands thing..if *could* be him. Sure, Bran doesn't recognize him like Jon recognized the one that comes to get the Lord Commander in the first book (can't remember his name!) but this could possibly be because of the amount of time that has passed, assuming that turning into an Other will probably eventually change the way you look..what with freezing and all.
I think the most redeeming factor in the BJ=CH is that the Children of the Forest seem to be helping him, possibly stopped him from becoming a wight all together (why are only his hands black and not the rest of him?) BJ is a Stark after all, descendant of the First Men, the First Men had connections with the Children of the Forest (after a peace treating and fighting the Others in the War of the Dawn..led by Azor Azai no less)
Benjen as a descendant of the First Men could have been saved by the Children of the Forest to help fight against the Others.
or it could not be Benjen at all :)
My kids at 4 were always getting into something & I think he's about 6 now, plus he has a big ass dire wolf & was subject to temper tantrums. I wouldn't expect Martin to do much with him, but dropping him completely for 2 books - big, thick books - seems a bit much.
No, i mean, I agree with you and I'm sad that there wasn't any Rickon at all, but I don't believe it's an oversight. We're not supposed to know what he's been up to. (i think)
Ah! Now I see what you meant. Maybe we're not, but I don't like it. Maybe I'm just grumpy, though. The first few books were so good & the last two just really disappointed me.
ah, cmaaaaannn, give GRRM a break. He's never going to meet the expectations of everyone, sure, the last two were...mediocre at best but he has to lay tons and tons of groundwork and have everything make sense. That's hard work.
as far as Three-Eyed Crow goes, i think he's supposed to be a Targaryen bastard named Bloodraven, from the Dunk & Egg books? the only connecting character between the two series.
mark wrote: "as far as Three-Eyed Crow goes, i think he's supposed to be a Targaryen bastard named Bloodraven, from the Dunk & Egg books? the only connecting character between the two series."Not the only one....
Or wait. You might be right. If by connecting character you mean one that actually appears in both. The one I'm thinking of was around, but hasn't actually appeared in the Dunk & Egg stories. (view spoiler)
I wonder if Benjen's warg blood (I assume all the Starks have a healthy dollop of it, not just the younger generation) could turn him into Coldhands instead of an Other?I also wonder if Sansa will meekly go to Stoneheart even if Brienne and Jamie finds her? She is developing a mind of her own after all.
"She is developing a mind of her own after all. "finally.
Yeah. Her vapid idiocy was a bit too much to be true.
I sense great things coming from Sansa.
I want to see where Arya winds up. She might just be my favorite character in the series. She was so tough, both mentally & physically. I'm worried that he's going to bring her to a bad end, the way she's going now. I keep thinking that her bond with the wolf will let her learn what she can now & then slip away.
Arya rocks.
Chris wrote: "Arya rocks."She's Ned Stark's true daughter. If winter comes, it better watch its step or she'll kick its ass.
;-)
I think she'll tame winter and force it to fight with her.
I think you're mixing this up with Terry Prachett's Tiffany Aching series.
I've been thinking about Barriston Selmy's musings on Ashara Dayne, the mystery of Jon Snow's parentage, and the identity of the Aegon claimaint.I belong to the camp that thinks that Jon Snow's parents were Rhaegar Tregaryan and Lyanna Stark. It makes more sense than any other theory I have seen.
I wonder, now, after having finished A Dance With Dragons, if the new Aegon isn't the child of Ashara Dayne and either Brandon or Ned Stark. My money is on Brandon Stark, because we know from earlier in the book that Brandon took mistresses. We don't know the exact timeline of Ashara's death (do we?), but could it be that Ashara died after the gruesome death of Brandon Stark and his father? Or did she die because either she believed her child was dead, or because her child had been taken from her?
The Daynes, like the Tregaryans, have purple eyes, which would account for Aegon's eye color.
Lastly--do you think that Daenerys was suffering from a miscarriage near the end of the book? The amount of blood we are talking about, plus the fact that she couldn't remember when her last period was, makes me think so.
your last point... never really thought of that. food for thought!as far as Aegon goes, wasn't that just a switcheroo? i thought he was the actual son of Rhaegar & oops forgot her name, the Dornishwoman.
Lots of baby switcherooing, from what it looks like.
The story is that he is the son of Rhaegar and Elia. But is he? I am not at all convinced.He may well THINK he is the son of Rhaegar, but that doesn't mean he is.
well, as Quentyn Martell found out, there is really only one way to find out... jump in a fire!
Is it just me or does it seem like all the good and honorable people are being killed off and evil is winning this war?
I think Jon is dead and they will kill Ghost as well. But I am hoping that they will throw him over the wall and he will rise again as one of the undead. Remember he talked about how he thought that they were "aware", and I'm sure that Coldhands, who is helping Bran, is their uncle. Perhaps those men who were honorable in life can also be so after they are reanimated.
Also glad to see Tyrion back to his usual machinations.
Lastly, at the end of Book 4 Brienne was about to be killed by Catelyn, but she was able to get out one word. Obviously Brienne is still alive because others saw Jamie go off with her, but there was nothing about her in this book. WHAT WAS THE ONE WORD?!?!?! WHY DID CATELYN ALLOW HER TO LIVE? It is driving me crazy!