Valar Morghulis--Valar Dohaeris discussion
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A Dance with Dragons
A Song of Ice and Fire
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FINISHED: A Dance with Dragons - Spoiler Hell Within
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Christy
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Jan 26, 2012 04:28PM
hmm....sometimes I read through all these theories and I think I must have read a different series than everyone else....or I'm just truly NOT observant at all. I know I'm not stupid, but the extent to which you all remember details is truly remarkable. Oh...and HI! I'm back! :)
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Hey, Christy!It helps (me) that I've read the series a few times. I can afford to look at fine details when it's a re-read.
Though I still find myself hoping they won't kill Ned or have the Red Wedding. Weird?
Very weird! But I feel the exact same way. I haven't been able to re-read yet. That may be the issue. Or perhaps I have early onset Alzheimers....or I'm just not as smart as the rest of you!
Jill wrote: "I belong to the camp that thinks that Jon Snow's parents were Rhaegar Tregaryan and Lyanna Stark. It makes more sense than any other theory I have seen...."I thought there was a reference in one of the last books that mentioned who Ned's love was & she was Jon's mother. I can't remember exactly where or what that was, though. Kingslayer or Brianna might have come across the information... I haven't done a re-read, so details like that trickle away.
Jill wrote: "I've been thinking about Barriston Selmy's musings on Ashara Dayne, the mystery of Jon Snow's parentage, and the identity of the Aegon claimaint.I belong to the camp that thinks that Jon Snow's p..."
re: Dany - miscarriage. That's how I read it as well, but I was also thinking that it's probably super symbolic like...she's releasing all this bad blood and being reborn or something like that.
They say Ashara Dayne leapt to her death at the news of the death of her brother, but her body was never found! besides, isn't she Greta..or whatever nursey's name is that Tyrion is making lewd comments about most of the way through ADWD?
She came off as a Greta, though, no? All I really saw was Castle Antrax anyway:http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9v...
ha! yes she was very Greta. Sexy sister Greta! So full of Sexy Secrets!
so full of...Ashara Dayne secrets
I think her leaping off of the ship nude was just her sexy way of mocking all those Ashara Dayne rumors! Naughty Greta, full of in-jokes!
remember when Dany is iin the house of the Undying and she sees...Rhaegar and his wife with a new baby and she says "what will we name him" and he says "Aegon..his is the song of ice and fire"...
what do we think of that?
I think it means that Rhaegar thought the child was the song of ice and fire. But it doesn't mean he was right. I've been thinking the prophesy makes sense about Jon (whose Winterfell connections make him ice)... perhaps Dani as well (fire)
yeah, i think that's the general consensus but why would Rhaegar be wrong when the rest of Dany's visions were right? I mean, not that it can't be, but why would it be. I don't know what the first one was (woman raped by 4 dwarf things?) the second was the Red Wedding, the third was of when she lived in Braavos, the fourth was Mad King Aerys and the fifth was the scene above.
I thought that the vision of Rhaegar was a real vision of something that happened... not necessarily prophetic.
I thought the same, Jill.
Woman raped by 4 dwarves thing = I assumed that was Westeros being mistreated by its warring factions?
Oh, i think i figured it at. At the end of the same Chapter, The Undying attack Dany much in the same way that she see's the woman being attacked.
but i see this representing the 4 kings righting over westeros (as Renly has been shadowkilled)
Can someone answer a question for me? If Varys was in fact protecting Aegon AKA Griff and his ultimate goal is to see the Targaryens return to power, why did he conspire to have Daenarys assassinated in GOT?
This has always confused me...
Also does anyone know why Benjen Stark took the black?
Maybe to throw off any suspicion. He's crafty, he may have had a side deal with Jorah to stop the assassination attempt all along. Starks have always manned the walls. Every generation has had a Stark on the Wall. It's a matter of honor for them. And Benjen's a younger son, he couldn't have ruled Winterfell once Ned had his first child.
I was kinda pissed at Ned for encouraging Jon to go into such a joyless desolate life as the Night's Watch...until I remembered how Ned sees it.
Not only was Benjen a younger son, but he was a third son. Though we don't know if he joined the Night's Watch before or after the death of Brandon. Going by his seniority and the fact that we haven't heard of any involvement in Robert's Rebellion, I'm thinking he must have already been on the Wall.ETA: Not only that, but with Brandon dead, I doubt Benjen would have joined the Night's Watch as the only living heir to Ned (at the time).
This question makes me wonder if Rickon (as a third son) would have been pushed toward the Wall as well, had things not gotten so fucked up.
For sure, Rickon on the Wall. Let's just pretend we're in a typical fantasy, Robb would be king, Bran back up and Rickon out in the cold. It's how it is.Good point about no involvement in Robert's Rebellion. And they're teenagers when they go to the wall voluntarily. How old was Jon, 15, 16?
Yeah, he was about that age. I'm thinking Ned was around 20, so a younger brother would probably hit right about that age.Unless I've confused my ages. I do that sometimes, since the show and the books don't line up just right.
I was kinda pissed at Ned for encouraging Jon to go into such a joyless desolate life as the Night's Watch...until I remembered how Ned sees it.i felt the same way and had the same realization (eventually - it didn't really strike me when reading and only occurred to me during the show why Ned wouldn't think Jon's choice was the worst thing in the world).
Mark, Yes, me too, the TV series demonstrated better how Ned felt about the Night's Watch. He was proud of Jon's decision. I understand where Ned is coming from but I'm also like, Dude, have you ever seen the Wall? lolChris, I'm screwed up on the ages too, now that the TV series changed them.
He'd be the one to do it, if it happened. LOL
Chris wrote: "I wonder now if [spoilers removed] will end up King in the North, now that [spoilers removed]"BAHAHAHAHAHA. (view spoiler) amazetits.
Was it proven that Varys had a hand in Dany's attempted assassination?
i thought Varys, as ordered by Robert Baratheon... wasn't that just a straightforward order that happened in AGOT, one that Ned tried unsuccessfully to stop? or are you talking about a different assassination attempt besides that one in book 1?
I am talking about the one in book one, I just couldn't remember if Robert had ordered Varys or someone else to do it, besides, Varys (probably) let Jorah know about the attempt, mais non? How else did Jorah know about it? so Varys does as his King bids but still saves the Targaryen heir 'for the realm'
i'm not sure if any of that is established in the books, but i agree with your assessment. makes sense to me, particularly since (view spoiler)and i thought Littlefinger was playing the long game! after reading that epilogue in ADWD, LF's big game-changing moves just seem so... small. and petty!
I totally agree about LF, I had asked in another thread if anyone thought that LF was even playing the Game of Thrones, I feel as if his entire scheme has more to do with (view spoiler)but others disagreed with me.
i think it's both - vengeance on Ned (but not Catelyn) and your spoiler as well. the latter happening, perhaps, through Sansa. how exactly he plans on accomplishing that, i have no clue. but i don't underestimate his petty little plans for power, they've had a pretty good success rate so far.
I doubt that Jon really dies. He’s a pretty main character, and we've been promised that his parents will be revealed. This will mean almost nothing if he is dead. I am in the he's Lyanna's son from Rhaegar camp. But i also believe that the red lady took such an interest in him because she thinks he's PtwP/Azhiz Azhor (sp?). And for him to become that he must be re-born in smoke and salt. So he's gotta die, and then red (fire) magic will bring him back. Also as a targaryian he will be one of the three dragon heads. So i think he is "the main character" in the books. One more thing to support that; a song of ice (Lyanna's love of the ice blue roses and she’s from the north) and fire (dragons, red rubies, etc.) i don’t know whatcha think?
I agree with you, Steve. It has seemed pretty clear to me that Jon's is the Song of Ice and Fire.
per Melisandre's prophecy, i think he will warg into his dire wolf, then into another man's body.in some ways i see Jon as the Ice and Danerys as the Fire in the series' title.
I think there is a theory about there being a dragon at Winterfell. It explains the hot springs, and there are some VERY subtle references to it. I think it occurs with Bran as summer after the burning of Winterfell. "The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone". this is similar to how Dany brought her dragons into the world. I also believe Osha makes a comment that "we were loud enough to wake dragons". also anyone who isnt convinced that Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark go to this website, pretty convincing. http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchiv...
Wow! Love the dragon idea. Lots of subtlety in these books, so why not? Now I feel stupid for not seeing it.
you're not the only one who didn't see it! this is a new idea to me too.
I feel slightly better, lol
Here's a mention of the origins of Ser Patrek of King's Mountain: http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/20...
Wow. This is a scholarly crew! A question of the Targaryen bloodlines -- Jon is dark, like all the Starks. Aren't the Targaryens Blondes, grey eyes, etc.? I know the Citadel keeps close watch on bloodlines -- anyone have an "in" with them? I mean, we know of at least one recently passed Targaryen Meister who may have left offspring somehwere...
"Mark said: i am really looking forward to a Davos-meets-Rickon/Osha/Shaggydog & the cannibals storyline."I feel I have majorly missed out on something in the books, where/when was Rickons wearabouts mentioned? I don't recall anything about Rickon being with Canables.
Please someone, fill me in! I'm in the middle of re-reading the series, but am only at the beginning of Clash of Kings.
Secret, Remember anything about when Rickon splits up from Bran? He goes to Skagos, the cannibal island. I think it's in ADWD.Here's ASOIAF wiki, you can search for what you want to remember ASAP: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
Richard, usually the Targaryens mated with each other, that would preserve the white blonde hair and violet eye color, no diversity in the bloodline. But if a dark Stark's blood was introduced? That could change the progeny's look.
Hmmm -- and probably save the level of multiple fingers, double rows of teeth and psychosis, too! You have a point.
Rhaegar's little girl, Rhaenys, had the dark hair of Dorne, like her mother. So, it's very possible that Rhaegar could produce a dark-haired son in Jon Snow. Stark traits are strong, yet four of five of Ned's children had Tully hair and features. It was menioned that Arya looked like her aunt Lyanna.
