Voting for NPR's Top 100 Science Fiction and Fantasy Books Open

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

So if what Ed says is right, the actual percentage of women on the list is probably higher than it seems since a lot of male winners are no longer living (or members of any organization). Only Octavia Butler has passed away from the women, I think.

Not to mention that Atwood is probably furious to be on this list, despite making #22, because she self-affiliates as a writer of "literature," not of science fiction.

[Andrew]

@Ed: I had similar thoughts when I was discussing it with Sean back in this thread (Another Must Read Book List and later this one Women & Minorities in Science Fiction. It seemed to me that a lot of the discourse surrounding the topic was about the manifestation of the bias with poor inquiry into what truly made it up. If works of minorities are not getting recognised regardless of merit because of systematic bias I all for correction, but not at the expense of works that are worthy of merit in spite of authorship (even if they are white males). Anyway like you I seem to be a little more pragmatic, and what you've listed in terms of proportions is what I suspected might have been the case. To be clear I'm all for correction with regard to certain bias, but I'd want it to be genuine, not just to tick some box to say we've made progress were we haven't.

[Sean]

Ed wrote: "The issue of gender representation in these lists always seems to come up.

That's because some of us have taken a pledge to draw attention to female authors and shine a light on the bias against them whenever it comes up. This is the only way this will ever change.

According to my research, there are "over 1800 writers" in the Science Fiction/Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA), but there are only 158 listed members of the Science Fiction/Fantasy Female Writers (SF/FFW). By my calculations, that means female writers roughly make up ~9% of the SFWA. The reality is probably slightly higher. My googling revealed estimates in the 10-15% range."

The reality is much higher. As of 2007, SFWA's membership was:

active members = 428 female, 641 male, 60 gender unknown
supporting members = 72 female, 92 male, 22 gender unknown
affiliate members [frequently reviewers] = 63 female, 84 male, 10 gender unknown
senior members = 4 female, 19 male, 3 gender unknown
Total: 1533

A survey of Locus in July-Oct 2007 found that about 40% of SF books published were by women. Still not parity, but it's significantly higher than on the NPR list.

[Sean]

Jenny wrote: "I had a thought. How diverse is our S&L list? We have thousands of people in our little book club. Maybe we need to make more of an effort? I would guess our percentages are close to the NPR list."

31 books on the group shelf. Marion Zimmer Bradley, Suzanne Collins, and N.K. Jemisin are the only female authors, while Jemisin and Charles Yu are the only non-white authors.

I'll just repeat my standard suggestion -- let's read some Japanese SF. There's lots of good stuff coming from the far side of the Pacific: Harmony by "Project" Itoh, The Lord of the Sands of Time by Issui Ogawa, Kieli by Yukako Kabei, Usurper of the Sun by Housuke Nojiri. Or we could try to drive Veronica crazy and pick Dhalgren by Samuel Delany.

[Kris]

I vote for C.J Cherryh again...

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

What about books set in different places? The Dervish House? :)

By the way, if anyone is an obsessive list maker, they have this list already up on ListofBests.com. That way you can check them off. It is very satisfying. I have lists for Hugo, Nebula, and Booker Awards over there too.

[Kris]

Another authorI don't see mentioned much is Jean M Auel who wrote Clan of the Cave Bear. This was a big time series and highly acclaimed when it came out even became a movie IIRC correctly...

[Andrew]

Sean wrote: "That's because some of us have taken a pledge to draw attention to female authors and shine a light on the bias against them whenever it comes up. This is the only way this will ever change."

I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, but I personally don't find it all that constructive when all you are doing is pointing out that 'yes' their is potentially a legacy bias that is likely largely an artefact of historic output differences (this is not to say that there probably aren’t other elements). I appreciate that it is about awareness, but to say that top lists are inherently bias because of gender proportion representation without any real metric for merit is a fool’s logic. From what I've seen it seems every list without some semblance of parity is decried as being bias?

Personally I feel the shining a light on female authors, current or historic, and celebrating their accomplishments is a much more constructive element of the movement. As is ensuring that current and future minority group authors are fairly considered on merit for awards and other acclaim.

Also if I'm reading those statistics correctly most are just snapshots of current gender breakdowns for more recent time slices. Are there any holistic gender breakdown statistics about?

The output proportions appear to be moving towards some parity though it doesn't really need to be 1:1 such that one would expect a more balance representation over time.

[Boots]

Jenny wrote: "What about books set in different places? The Dervish House? :)"

I just started reading it the other day and I'm really enjoying it so far.

[Nathan]

I have read 57, if you count the series I have only partially read, and if you count the books I am currently reading. (The Left Hand of Darkness, A Fire Upon the Deep)

[Gregory]

Sean wrote: "I'm white and male, yet I still manage to read books by women and people of color. You'd think NPR's liberal base would be the people most willing to explore books from diverse voices."

I don't see why people would give a shit what color, gender, et cetera wrote a book. I just finished Kinshield Legacy by KC May and discovered she's a she in the author's note. That isn't going to stop me from reading her other stuff.

Give me good characters and a good story and I don't really care if you're a Bug Eyed Monster.

[Kris]

At the risk of totally hi-jacking this thread I would add asking for more writers of scifi and fantasy that are women and/or minorities is not a negative in any way. I don't see it as a zero sum game nor is it about publishing works that aren't of quality. It is simply asking that consumers of scifi be aware of your choice and expand your choice of authors. There is no down side in that to me....

[Andrew]

@Kris: Probably better if people move to existing threads if they wish to discuss this topic futher. eg. Women & Minorities in Science Fiction

@Sean: I'd be interested in reading some Japanese SF. Please do put a suggestion forward for our next book.

@Rasputin: You know back in highschool when I read some Dragonlance novels I thought that Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman were both women. I later found out I was only 1/2 right on that account. So I hear what you are saying.

[Tamahome]

*Tamahome retracts his Tracy Hickman marriage proposal and wonders if China Mieville is available*

[Gregory]

@Rasputin: You know back in highschool when I read some Dragonlance novels I thought that Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman were both women. I later found out I was only 1/2 right on that account. So I hear what you are saying.

Pretty sure I was in my thirties. And by thirties I mean about a year or so ago when I heard Tracy on a podcast.

Ooops.

[Andrew]

Tamahome wrote: "*Tamahome retracts his Tracy Hickman marriage proposal*"

Because he's already married right ;)

[Sean]

Andrew wrote: "@Sean: I'd be interested in reading some Japanese SF. Please do put a suggestion forward for our next book."

Well if you want to sample something, there's a great fan translation of Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria, which is sort of like if Philip K. Dick had written Groundhog's Day as a YA novel. It should give you an idea of the flavoring of Japanese SF.

[Andrew]

Sean wrote: "Andrew wrote: "@Sean: I'd be interested in reading some Japanese SF. Please do put a suggestion forward for our next book."

Well if you want to sample something, there's a great fan translation of..."

Is the Volume 1 PDF where I want to start?

[Al]

I'm late to the party on this thread but I consider any list without Cherryh and Chip Delaney an epic fail.

[Al]

PS, I'm absolutely with Sean on the Japanese SF thing. And the few I've read are so varied that it's almost a mistake to consider them a distinct sub-genre. Just like sf by women.

[aldenoneil]

But back to the important bit: Tracy Hickman is a man?!

[Sean]

Andrew wrote: "Is the Volume 1 PDF where I want to start?"

Yes. If you convert it to epub or mobi with Calibre, it should come out all right.

[Andrew]

aldenoneil wrote: "But back to the important bit: Tracy Hickman is a man?!"

didn't know? :)

Sean wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Is the Volume 1 PDF where I want to start?"

Yes. If you convert it to epub or mobi with Calibre, it should come out all right."

Cheers. Shame they chose .PDF. Such a bad ebook format.

[Jessica]

aldenoneil wrote: "But back to the important bit: Tracy Hickman is a man?!"

Haha! Yeah, I didn't know that for the longest time either.

[Jessica]

Kris wrote: "I vote for C.J Cherryh again..."

Ooo! I just started reading her series and I really like them. Good choice.

[Tina]

I found the list too late to vote, but I was really surprised to see that Alice in Wonderland, Dracula and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde were not on the list. All very influential works.