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A Clash of Kings
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Martin, George R.R - A Clash of Kings (A Song of Ice and Fire, #2) buddy read start date July 5th 2011 - REVISIT JUNE 2017
Laura said,
"I was never a huge fan of Tyrion. He’s interesting, but I thought there was entirely too much of him in this book."
Last book it focused on Eddard. This book focused more on Tyrion. I hope Dany is the focus of the next one, but I think we've got a couple more books to go till she has a major roll.
Laura also said, "I think Ice is referencing the seasons. It’s slowly turning to autumn and I think winter will be here soon and it will be a rough one. I think there will still be lots of fighting going on at that point."
I think you could be right. I just assumed that if Fire referred to a person so would Ice. Hmmm.....
Response to Lisarenee's answers.158. I think Littlefinger will die. I don't see the Lannisters as being the last ones standing. That means all who are working under them will fall as well.
For some reason I don't think of Littlefinger as a Lannister man. I know he turned on Ned Stark and chose the Lannisters over him, but for some reason I don't think he's entirely their man. He's too tricky. He's always looking out for himself. I think, given the opportunity, Littlefinger would help bring down the Lannisters.
That doesn't mean I don't think he'll die. He probably will, but I don't think it will happen because he's with the Lannisters.
Although he's so sneaky, Littlefinger might be one of the few who survives the war and disappears to live a long, rich life and no one knows where he is.
Lisarenee wrote: "Last book it focused on Eddard. This book focused more on Tyrion..."I think those focuses were determined because both were key characters in King's Landing. I think Martin likes to keep us in King's Landing because it's the seat of power that everyone wants.
Answers to Questions for Chapter 64 (Arya) – Chapter 67 (Tyrion) 158. It sure seems as if Harrenhal is unlucky for those who rule there. I can’t really blame Arya for wanting out of that place. Think it is haunted, or jinked, or something? What does this foretell for Littlefinger? (If he ever gets to own it.)
I think Harrenhal is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone expects bad things to happen there, so no one has any qualms about storming it and taking it for their side. I think Littlefinger is too smart. I wouldn’t be surprised if he never steps foot into Harrenhal and rules from elsewhere. Or if he commissions a new House built after the war with some weak excuse like “To start fresh after all the horrible things that happened here.”
159. Did you ache just a little for Arya when she grieved for her brothers? Do you think that was really Lord Stark, Arya’s father, talking to her in the godswood?
I feel so bad for Arya because no one knows who she is and she has to find out all her information late and secondhand. And now she can’t even grieve properly. I think Gendry knows who she is – didn’t he hear her say “Winterfell” and he knows she’s noble – but that’s it.
160. Is Arya going to be a “skinchanger” like Bran? Will all the Stark children be able to do this?
I definitely think all the Stark children will be able to do this. Bran is the best, Jon has had random moments of it and there is speculation that Robb might have when they slipped past Lannister men. I wonder about Sansa. She doesn’t have a wolf anymore. Does that mean she will never be able to do it? Or will she be able to with another animal or one of the other direwolves? Poor Sansa!
161. Gendry and Hot Pie seemed pretty unhappy with Arya; were you surprised they went with her? Clever Arya, taking those maps; think they’ll come in handy for something other than finding her way to a safe place? BTW, will she really go to Riverun?
I like that they went with her, even if it was against their wills. They are a pack and they should stick together. I think the maps are to help her find her way to Riverrun. Isn’t it situated by one of the Trident’s rivers? But the roads seem so dangerous now, that just figuring out where they are and how to get somewhere else undetected and unmolested seems difficult.
162. Did you think Arya had it in her to kill that guard? Think the coin had anything to do with it?
Yes, I did. She’s becoming a lot tougher and she doesn’t shy away from doing what needs to be done. That’s what I love most about her.
163. Was King Joffrey’s whole wimpy “Mother!” court scene too, too pathetic, or what? At least Sansa’s has a sense of humor. Nevertheless, what ever will they do with her now?
This brings home that he’s really just a kid. What is he? 14? He’s so spoiled too. Nevertheless, Sansa isn’t free. Dontos is right in thinking that Cersei will still have plans to use Sansa.
164. Okay, just who is Ser Dontos? What’s with the hair net for Sansa? And there is that city again, Asshai!
So I don’t think Ser Dontos is anyone special. I think he’s exactly who we think he is – a fallen knight who’s always drunk. But he has mentioned to Sansa that there’s someone who will help get her out. I sort of wondered if it was Varys because he has all these connections over across the sea.
165. Okay, I’m pretty sick of Theon, but I think Winterfell just fell into worse hands than his. Was that a surprise that made perfect sense in hindsight?
Definitely in worse hands. I was super confused when I first read it and I don’t think it made sense at all in hindsight. I never saw that coming and even thinking back, knowing what I know, I still didn’t see it coming. I think the people of Winterfell will come to appreciate Theon a little too late. (Not that they should have appreciated him the first time. Even if I do feel sympathy for him, he was completely in the wrong).
166. Tyrion wasn’t quite an amnesiac, but the milk of the poppy was making him have some strange dreams. Any new revelations there for you?
I don’t remember these dreams too clearly. Mostly because I hate reading dream sequences. Even Bran’s direwolf dreams I sort of skim over.
167. Will Shae still want to be with Tyrion once she sees the extent of his injuries?
Possibly. But with Tywin Lannister around, I don’t think it’s smart.
168. BTW, who do you think found Tyrion down in the cellar?
I don’t remember this at all from when I read the book, so I’ll skip it, lol.
169. Who do you think assigned Ser Mandon to kill Tyrion? If it was Cersei, and Jaime makes it back to King’s Landing alive, it will sure make for an interesting dialogue to see whose side he takes.
Definitely Cersei. There’s no doubt in my mind. She thinks Tommen is in danger while Tyrion is alive, so she wants to get rid of him. Plus, he’s just a general nuisance for her, so if she can kill him in the middle of a war and make it look like it was just unfortunate, I think she would definitely do it.
170. Methinks Tyrion is in deep poop, and I don’t just mean his injuries. What do you think? How about his father taking over as the Hand?
All his hard work undone almost. With Tywin there, I don’t think Tyrion has any chance of running the show like he had been. He’s going to lose all credibility and power because everyone will follow Tywin’s lead and Tywin always looks down on Tyrion.
Questions for Chapter 60 (Sansa) - Chapter 63 (Daenerys)150. Well, we get a glimpse at what makes Cersei tick and it ain't pretty. Why was she giving Sansa all that advice if she knew she'd never be queen?
I think Cersei is not right in the head. This is a woman who only feels complete when her brother is inside her. Perhaps she wants to just torment Sansa.
151. Do you think Tyrion will survive and, if so, in what shape? The story would be so boring without him.
I agree it would be boring without him! I don't think GRRM will kill him off just yet.
52. Should Sansa have gone with the Hound?
Did he ask her to come with him? I don't remember. Also I am unclear why Dontos was so happy that the Lannisters won.
153. Why do I get the feeling Sansa should stay away from Ser Dontos.
See above, and he hasn't proven himself trustworthy. Plus he's constantly drunk. This is a man with no self control.
154. Do you believe Stannis is dead and do you believe that both Cersei and Joffrey survived? It sounded like she was about to kill herself. I just can't see this as the end to Cersei, Joffrey, and Sansa. What would be left to the story?
I don't think Stannis is dead. Also, I don't see and end to C and J (yet).
155. Where the heck is Robb? Is he dead?
Don't know where he is, but I don't think he is dead.
156. Daenerys looks to be in prime position to take over her rightful place as Queen. What do you think?
There is so much competition, I don't think this will be an easy road for her at all.
157. Darn! I was hoping to know what the Song of Ice and Fire was. Could it mean a uniting of Robb (ice) with Daenerys (fire)?
I was hoping Jon Snow and Dany. :-)
Responses to Sandy's answers152. Also I am unclear why Dontos was so happy that the Lannisters won.
I could be wrong, but I think people are celebrating not because they like the Lannisters, but because there's no guarantee that they'd be safe if Stannis won. Stannis' soldiers would probably flood the city before he entered, and they'd go around killing and raping everyone. That seems to be the status quo for the winners.
157. I was hoping Jon Snow and Dany. :-)
So initially I was too. But this seems like such a popular theory amongst readers that I hope Martin doesn't do it now.
Lisa Kay’s Questions for Chapter 64 (Arya) – Chapter 67 (Tyrion)158. It sure seems as if Harrenhal is unlucky for those who rule there. I can’t really blame Arya for wanting out of that place. Think it is haunted, or jinked, or something? What does this foretell for Littlefinger? (If he ever gets to own it.)
At least we know there is much more action to come, right? I don't remember which side Roose Bolton is on. I thought Starks'? I have to admit to MUCH confusion in regard to loyalties.
159. Did you ache just a little for Arya when she grieved for her brothers? Do you think that was really Lord Stark, Arya’s father, talking to her in the godswood?
Yes, it was sad, but I am looking forward to her finding out the truth! I thought she was remembering things he said.
160. Is Arya going to be a “skinchanger” like Bran? Will all the Stark children be able to do this?
She could, but have we seen any signs of this in her?
I can't remember specifics.
161. Gendry and Hot Pie seemed pretty unhappy with Arya; were you surprised they went with her? Clever Arya, taking those maps; think they’ll come in handy for something other than finding her way to a safe place? BTW, will she really go to Riverun?
I think she will be caught before reaching Riverrun, but she'll get there eventually. I wasn't surprised Gendry and Hot Pie joined her.
162. Did you think Arya had it in her to kill that guard? Think the coin had anything to do with it?
She has killed before, so I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. I think that Arya doesn't really believe the coin means anything, yet she holds on to it.
163. Was King Joffrey’s whole wimpy “Mother!” court scene too, too pathetic, or what? At least Sansa’s has a sense of humor. Nevertheless, what ever will they do with her now?
He is very pathetic, but it's fun to hate him. I think they will hold on to Sansa as long as Robb has Jamie.
164. Okay, just who is Ser Dontos? What’s with the hair net for Sansa? And there is that city again, Asshai!
No clue, but I think the hair net will prove very valuable to Sansa. Asshai is where the magic happens!
165. Okay, I’m pretty sick of Theon, but I think Winterfell just fell into worse hands than his. Was that a surprise that made perfect sense in hindsight?
I am sooooo confused! I need someone to explain what happened here. So this is Bolton's Bastard, right? Who traded places with Reek to escape....who/what? I thought he was on Robb's side so why burn down Winterfell?
166. Tyrion wasn’t quite an amnesiac, but the milk of the poppy was making him have some strange dreams. Any new revelations there for you?
I thought his memories of his brief marriage were very touching. So sad it was all a big joke. I feel bad for Tyrion.
167. Will Shae still want to be with Tyrion once she sees the extent of his injuries?
I think Shae likes Tyrion for his company, money and security much more than his looks. So, yes, I think she would stay with him.
168. BTW, who do you think found Tyrion down in the cellar?
His squire?
169. Who do you think assigned Ser Mandon to kill Tyrion? If it was Cersei, and Jaime makes it back to King’s Landing alive, it will sure make for an interesting dialogue to see whose side he takes.
Yes, I do think it was Cersei.
170. Methinks Tyrion is in deep poop, and I don’t just mean his injuries. What do you think? How about his father taking over as the Hand?
I don't think his father would let anything bad happen to him, so I think he'll be ok as long as Tywin is around. He'll probably have to get rid of Shae though. :-(
Laura said, "I was never a huge fan of Tyrion. He’s interesting, but I thought there was entirely too much of him in this book."I really liked Tyrion's scenes in the TV version, so I wonder if that contributes to why I like him so much as a character in the books.
I completely agree there was not enough Dany in this one. More please!
I'm still confused about the whole "Bolton's Bastard, ? Who traded places with Reek.."Did they trade places after Reek left to go get men?
and oh I didn't even think of this: 157. Darn! I was hoping to know what the Song of Ice and Fire was. Could it mean a uniting of Robb (ice) with Daenerys (fire)?
that would be great = )
I'm sad at Maester Luwin's death. and I'm really worried for Tyrion. Even though I shouldn't be, he's very resourceful and smart!
and where the heck has Little finger been? I don't like how he just showed up and why were they shouting that it was Renly?
Response to Sandy's Answers for Questions for Chapter 64 - 67158. I don't remember which side Roose Bolton is on. I thought Starks'?
Yep, he's on the Starks' side. Bolton is definitely a northman. The only reason he got into Harrenhal is because Vargo Hoat's men let Bolton in.
And... there's something else, but I can't remember if it was from the end of this book or the beginning of the next, so I won't even spoiler cut it to be safe.
165. I am sooooo confused! I need someone to explain what happened here. So this is Bolton's Bastard, right? Who traded places with Reek to escape....who/what? I thought he was on Robb's side so why burn down Winterfell?
Well, you're basically right. Robb sent orders for the bastard to be killed because Ramsay had taken the Lady of Hornwood and forced her to marry him so he could get her lands. Then he locked her up and didn't feed her and she chewed off her fingers before starving. So he's kind of a horrible guy.
So he retaliated by pretending to be Reek, returning with all those men under the guise of helping Theon before turning on Theon and his men and burning Winterfell to the ground.
Like I said, horrible guy.
I really liked Tyrion's scenes in the TV version, so I wonder if that contributes to why I like him so much as a character in the books.
Also, I liked Tyrion in the show (Peter Dinklage!) and even in the books, but I got tired of seeing so much of him. The same happened with Ned Stark, who I loved in the show (Boromir! I mean, Sean Bean!). But too many chapters of one character frustrate me because I want to get back to the others. More Sansa and Arya please!
Kellyflower wrote: "Did they trade places after Reek left to go get men?"That was never Reek. It was always the Bastard in disguise. The northmen thought they shot the Bastard, but it was really Reek they had killed, while the Bastard escaped in disguise.
where the heck has Little finger been?
He had been sent to broker a marriage between Joffrey and Margaery Tyrell (Renly's widow) in hopes that Highgarden (which apparently is very powerful) would side with the Lannisters against Stannis.
He returned with the Highgarden army to surprise Stannis' army from the rear.
And on a totally immature note: every time someone says something about taking an army in the rear I want to giggle like a 12-year-old.
Laura said "Laura also said, "I think Ice is referencing the seasons. It’s slowly turning to autumn and I think winter will be here soon and it will be a rough one. I think there will still be lots of fighting going on at that point."Lisarenee said: "I think you could be right. I just assumed that if Fire referred to a person so would Ice. Hmmm..."
Man-oh-man! Lisarenee! No! Don't let Laura influence you on this when you got me finally convinced you were right, LOL! I thought it just meant the seasons at first too... then you changed my mind; so you can't change yours to hers. (This is killing me, it is so funny.)
I am changing my opinion to Jon being Ice and the following quote is what did it. Could this be about Jon?"Will you make a song for him?' the woman asked.
'He has a song,' the man replied. 'He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Page 701 of paperback (happens in Daenerys chapter when she goes into the Wizard's fun house).
Man-oh-man! That dream about a prince was mentioned later too. OMG, I can't remember. I think it was Dany talking with Ser Jorah. **flips though book** Yes! Bottom of page 874, "Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne..." Okay, what if the babe is really Jon Snow and Lord Stark helped secret him out of the castle? Or, the babe could still be Jon Snow, but the mother is Lyanna.
I know. The dream implies there was another male heir.
Laura wrote: "Response to Sandy's Answers for Questions for Chapter 64 - 67158. I don't remember which side Roose Bolton is on. I thought Starks'?
Yep, he's on the Starks' side. Bolton is definitely a northma..."
OK, now I know see why would burn down Winterfell. I had forgotten that Robb gave orders to kill him.
I always called Ned "Boromir" too, when I was trying to explain to my husband what was going on the few times he tried to watch this with me.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Man-oh-man! That dream about a prince was mentioned later too. OMG, I can't remember. I think it was Dany talking with Ser Jorah. **flips though book** Yes! Bottom of page 874, "Prince Aegon ..."Wasn't the baby killed?
I still think you ladies were right about Jon being Lyanna's son. Several times it was mentioned that she was in a bloody bed (don't even ask me to find the passages!). Only thing is that Jon can be harmed by fire. Maybe the father wasn't a Targaryen?
WHAT IF HIS FATHER IS ROBERT????
OK, ok, I will just keep reading! :-)
Sandy, We could very well be wrong about Jon's parentage and your fire observation does kind of lead me to think perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree. When I first read the dream sequence I thought the baby was dead too. Could the Song of Ice and Fire have something to do with the song that was sung by the Wildings about the Wilding/Stark mixture? What if the Direwolf existence has something to do with the Starks having mixed blood? Didn't they say the birds were people? I did want to know the tale of how the Starks got the link between the Direwolves. At this point I have so many questions.
Okay, okay, okay! Wait a minute. You ladies have
really
got my brain whirling. Yes, I think the baby in Dany's vision/dream was Jon Snow; Ned spirited him out of danger (so he's not dead). The reason he got burned in the fire is b/c he is the opposite (counterpart) to Dany. This makes them cousins. Plus, who knows how bad Jon Snow would have been burned if he wasn't who he was. I think he
is
Lyanna and Rhaegar's - he just has the "traits" of winter/ice, while Dany has the "traits" of summer/fire. Makes perfect sense that she would flourish/come to power in a hot climate. (Now, does this make her vulnerable to cold?) Ditto with regards to climate for Jon Snow (and why he needs to stay at the Wall).Wow, got that out of my systerm, LOL!
Lisa Kay, I love your theory here!
Thanks, Sandy! We'll see won't we? Of course, it may be years yet, LOL!
Gosh guys I just realized I didn't post questions. I will post now.
Chapter 68(Jon) - Chapter 69(Bran)Wow! Martin knows how to write a cliffhanger.
171) Did you expect that Jon would be asked to secretly keep his vows to the Brothers? Were you surprised he had to kill Qhorin? What was that all about? I'm still confused why someone would want to take over the Wall?
172) What was up with the birds? Are they like the Direwolves?
173) Thank goodness Bran and Ricken are alive. Anyone else surprised?
174) Where is Arya?
175) Can they trust Osha? I felt someone else should have gone with her.
176) I wonder how badly damaged Winterfell is? I thought it would be razed to the ground, but they found food and the last description made me wonder if it was as bad as I feared?
177) Wonderful last lines by Bran in the book:
"The stone is stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either."
Can I just say how much I have enjoyed discussing these books with you ladies? :-)Chapter 68(Jon) - Chapter 69(Bran)
Wow! Martin knows how to write a cliffhanger.
Yes, indeed, and he leaves you wanting more, more, more!
171) Did you expect that Jon would be asked to secretly keep his vows to the Brothers? Were you surprised he had to kill Qhorin? What was that all about? I'm still confused why someone would want to take over the Wall?
I didn't expect anything that happened in this chapter, with the exception of meeting Ygritte again.
I suppose Qhorin knew they would ask Jon to kill him, in order to prove Jon's loyalty to the Others or the Wildlings or whatever the heck they are! I'm not sure about why they would want to take over the wall, either.
172) What was up with the birds? Are they like the Direwolves?
Sounds like one of the wildlings that Quorin/Jon killed was a "shapeshifter" (forgot the terminology) too and he's now the eagle. So, yes, like the direwolves.
173) Thank goodness Bran and Ricken are alive. Anyone else surprised?
Once I knew Theon didn't really kill them, I figured they were still alive somewhere. Clever to hide in the tomb!
174) Where is Arya?
On her way to Riverrun with Hot Pie and Gendry, I hope.
175) Can they trust Osha? I felt someone else should have gone with her.
I do think they can trust Osha, however I just can't imagine my 4-year-old son on his own in the wilderness with a wild woman!
176) I wonder how badly damaged Winterfell is? I thought it would be razed to the ground, but they found food and the last description made me wonder if it was as bad as I feared?
It sounds like it can be restored.
177) Wonderful last lines by Bran in the book:
"The stone is stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either."
Agree!
Answers to Lisarenee’s Questions for Chapter 68(Jon) - Chapter 69(Bran)Wow! Martin knows how to write a cliffhanger.
It’s funny, I didn’t really think of the end of this one like a cliffhanger. I thought it was good ending because it tied up all the stories just enough, but also gave hints as to where it’s all going.
171) Did you expect that Jon would be asked to secretly keep his vows to the Brothers? Were you surprised he had to kill Qhorin? What was that all about? I'm still confused why someone would want to take over the Wall?
I wasn’t all that surprised he had to kill Qhorin, because it made total sense. Qhorin must have known that they wouldn’t have accepted him and since he spent so much time patrolling he must have known the wildlings well enough to know they would tell Jon to do that.
It’s not that they want to take over the Wall so much as they want to get beyond it. Just, in order to get through, they need the defense to fall, otherwise the Night’s Watch will do all they could to stop the wildlings.
172) What was up with the birds? Are they like the Direwolves?
I think they are. Which I didn’t think was possible, but then, people did keep mentioning wargs in connection to Robb was it? But they meant it as an insult when using it.
On that note, I feel like “warg” is one of those terms that Martin should have addressed and explained more. He sort of throws it into the story randomly. I really think that was a mistake because he has said he was inspired by Tolkien’s LotR, and wargs have a very specific meaning in those books that many of Martin’s readers would probably associate with the word.
So that being said, I thought initially that direwolves were the only creatures one could have that connection with, but now that doesn’t look to be the case.
173) Thank goodness Bran and Rickon are alive. Anyone else surprised?
I was so surprised at where they decided to hide. That was ingenious! But the really amazing thing to me is, if Theon had allowed Maester Luwin to take the other boys’ bodies down in to the crypts, they would have been found. It was Theon’s inability to let strangers down there where Starks to be that continue to allow Bran and Rickon to hide right beneath his nose!
174) Where is Arya?
She and Gendry and Hot Pie are still wandering around trying to find the Trident and Riverrun, yes?
175) Can they trust Osha? I felt someone else should have gone with her.
I think they can trust Osha. She’s the whole reason Bran and Rickon are safe. I imagine it was all her idea: pretending to join Theon so she could have free reign of the castle, leading the wolves to the treeline to throw off the tracks and then doubling back. I trust her at least. Although I wish she was with Bran, because I like her so much.
176) I wonder how badly damaged Winterfell is? I thought it would be razed to the ground, but they found food and the last description made me wonder if it was as bad as I feared?
Well, it’s made of stone, so while fire would do some damage, I wouldn’t think the whole place would be rubble. That would have to be a really hot flame and I think Bolton’s bastard and his men were sort of just running around lighting things willy nilly.
177) Wonderful last lines by Bran in the book:
"The stone is stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either."
Love it. We started the first book at Winterfell and now it’s entirely abandoned. But this is Martin’s way of giving us a little hope (which we don't get much of in his books). It might be a while, but I think a Stark will rule in Winterfell again (it would be great if it was like Sansa or Rickon, one of the last two I would normally expect) and bring it back to its glory.
Sandy wrote: "I just can't imagine my 4-year-old son on his own in the wilderness with a wild woman!"Rickon also has Shaggydog!
171. I suppose Qhorin knew they would ask Jon to kill him, in order to prove Jon's loyalty to the Others or the Wildlings or whatever the heck they are!
They are the wildlings. As far as I can tell, the wildlings are very afraid of the Others as well, and I think that's part of the reason why the wildlings suddenly want to get south of the Wall. I think Osha and her companions mentioned something similar when the were found by Winterfell.
Lisa Kay’s Answers to Lisarenee’s Questions Chapter 68 (Jon) - Chapter 69 (Bran) Wow! Martin knows how to write a cliffhanger.
Yes, he does! Still, satisfying!
171) Did you expect that Jon would be asked to secretly keep his vows to the Brothers? Were you surprised he had to kill Qhorin? What was that all about? I'm still confused why someone would want to take over the Wall?
Nope. Didn’t expect any of that. And I’ve been wondering the same thing about the Wall!
172) What was up with the birds? Are they like the Direwolves?
Yeah, I think so.
173) Thank goodness Bran and Rickon are alive. Anyone else surprised?
Not after the end of Theon’s hunting for them chapter. Reassuring to read Bran’s chapter, though.
174) Where is Arya?
Hopefully, on her way to Riverrun.
175) Can they trust Osha? I felt someone else should have gone with her.
Yes, I trust her. I thought it was a perfect match-up as Rickon is more than half-wild himself. Why? Do you know something I don’t? OMG, now I’m worried.
176) I wonder how badly damaged Winterfell is? I thought it would be razed to the ground, but they found food and the last description made me wonder if it was as bad as I feared?
I’m hoping not too bad.
177) Wonderful last lines by Bran in the book:
“The stone is stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.”They were wonderful, Lisarenee. I’m glad Martin gave them to me b/c he gave me hope.
@Laura#171 - Thanks for clearing that up. For some reason I thought the Wildings were on both sides of the Wall and I kept wondering how they were getting back and forth. I think I even asked this question somewhere in these six pages of postings, LOL!
#172 - Good point about the word/meaning "warg"! I totally agree with you.
#173 - Yes! Their hiding place was very clever!
@Sandy#172 - Question: So, did whoever Quorin/Jon killed slip/mindmeld into his eagle b/f death? Is that what you're saying? Man-oh-man! That opens up a whole new world of possibilities.
I was wondering the same thing. Could that be why they asked that the bodies be burned? Seems in these books fire cleanses things.
Lisarenee wrote: "I was wondering the same thing. Could that be why they asked that the bodies be burned? Seems in these books fire cleanses things."Wow! Good point, Lisarenee. Yet another reason to burn the body, b/c God knows they wouldn't was a Zombie taking over if they had mind-melded with their eagle (or whatever) b/f death.
Just out of curiosity are mummers sellswords or are they something else too? I found the bloody mummers were sellswords, but are regular mummers the same or is there another definition? I get confused with this one because there is a mummer definition in real life associated with actors. I think it's another thing like warg.
From Wikipedia:In Norse mythology, a vargr (often anglicised as warg or varg) is a wolf and in particular refers to the wolf Fenrir and his sons Sköll and Hati. Based on this, J. R. R. Tolkien in his fiction used the Old English form warg (other O.E. forms being wearg and wearh) to refer to a wolf-like creature of a particularly evil kind.The last one made me shrug and say they were using it kind of "tongue in cheek" b/c of the "house-to-house" visits (and yes, I think they are a type of sellswords). Still, with warg, I wanted a glossary in the back of the book.
Mummers Plays (also known as mumming) are seasonal folk plays performed by troupes of actors known as mummers or guisers (or by local names such as rhymers, pace-eggers, soulers, tipteerers, galoshins, guysers, and so on), originally from England (see wrenboys), but later in other parts of the world. They are sometimes performed in the street but more usually as house-to-house visits and in public houses.
I do think that the guy Jon and Qhorin killed slipped permanently into his eagle before he died. But I don't think burning would have prevented him from being stuck there. I think his mind had already left his body, whether or not his body was just dead or burned wouldn't matter if he was already disconnected.I think the burning had only to do with not being brought back as a zombie.
I think mummers are actors in these books as well. The Bloody Mummers is a name that they don't like to be called. People call them that because of their outlandish appearances according to the A Song of Ice and Fire wiki. The Bloody Mummers like to go by the name Brave Companions.
Just a note, I don't recommend anyone going to the ASoIaF wiki if you have questions because there are spoilers for the first four books - but if you ever want me to look something up, I can!
I agree there should be a glossary in the back for warg, mummers, and shadowbinders(although that one is obvious, but I'd like to know if there's more to it).
Laura wrote: "Just a note, I don't recommend anyone going to the ASoIaF wiki if you have questions because there are spoilers for the first four books - but if you ever want me to look something up, I can!"Thanks, Laura! I may take you up on that. I didn't know they had a ASoIaF wiki! I don't want any more spoilers than I already have had (knew B&R made it - but maybe that is a good thing, as I probably would have thrown the book across the room!).
Questions for Prologue - Chapter 3 (Tyrion)1. A little confusing at the beginning. We're introduced to new characters and I was lost as to who they were. Took a while to figure out where they fit in. Anyone else feel the same way?
I’m not confused yet. Give it time. LOL
2. The comet thought to be Dragon's breath. Comets do tend to symbolize things in literature. I'm guessing it symbolizes the rebirth of the dragons.I'm thinking this is an omen in favor of Daenerys. Anyone else?
I think it symbolizes the rebirth of the dragons, too. Whether it’s in favor of Dany, I don’t know yet.
3. First impressions of the red lady, Lady Melisandre?
Oh, I really don’t like her. Uh huh, no way.
4, Well, finally we get to meet King Stannis. Initial thoughts? Should he have listened to Cressen?
He is a frinkin’ idiot. I hope he dies soon. Harsh, but come one. He carries on like a 5yo who had his favorite toy taken away.
5. Egads! I thought Rhaegar was married! Could he have married Lyanna. Could Jon be their son? Gah!
He was married. We were told so in GoT. He and his wife and kids were killed. Plus, he rode past his wife and gave Lyanna a flower in one of those tourneys. The prologue is a little confusing because Cressen is reminiscing about different battles and sieges.
6. Thank goodness Arya is okay. I was sooooo worried. I thought maybe the queen had gotten her paws on her since everyone claimed she had both of the Stark girls. What do you think will happen once they get to the wall? Will they send her home? I'm a little confused on this.
When Yoren grabbed her by the hair I figured he was going to cut her hair and sneak her out. I forgot he was there for men and boys for the Wall though. Winterfell is right on the way to the Wall. Arya can be left there, no problem. Can I say how much I enjoyed her kicking the ass of that little shit, Hot Pie? lol
7. Poor Sansa. She's finally gotten it. Poor dear. Any ideas how she'll get out of this fine mess?
Being a twit got her in the mess she’s in, but she’s young and the young make big mistakes. She appears to have learned from those mistakes and she does have a decent head on her shoulders now that she’s using it…sort of anyway. I have a feeling that Tyrion is on her side and so is The Hound (in some fashion) and maybe even Ser Arys. I can’t wait to see what happens.
8. Still loving Tyrion even though he's a bad guy. Anyone else? Could he be good?
I think Tyrion would make a decent King.
Carol wrote: "Questions for Prologue - Chapter 3 (Tyrion)1. A little confusing at the beginning. We're introduced to new characters and I was lost as to who they were. Took a while to figure out where they f..."
I don't like Melisandre either!
Totally agree with your assessments of Stannis and Tyrion.
Vi’s Questions Chapter 4 (Bran) - Chapter 7 (Catelyn) 9. I gotta ask: What are your theories regarding the wolves howling and Bran's reaction? (it might be childish but I have a feeling it might be important later on?)
A lot of time was spent on it, so it must have some significance. I don’t have a clue what though.
10. The dream Bran has when he's supposed to have a dreamless sleep: what is he dreaming as? Is he a dire-wolf? Or is it symbolic of a time to come?
I think he’s dreaming he’s a direwolf. I think he can astral project and when he can control it it will be important.
11. Arya rocks :P. Now we know who Bull was. Wonder how the queen knew? Littlefinger? Varys?
Man, I so want Littlefinger and Varys dead, dead, dead. And how did Bull end up with Yoren? And will he make it to the Wall or go with Arya to Winterfell? Gah! More questions!
12. Finally we get a little bit history on the King's history. I confess I got lost sometimes. Question is does this information serve any purpose later on?
It told us the line of succession and how it came about. Interesting. Where is Jon’s place if he is Rhaeger’s & Lyanna’s child? He & Dany, as far as we know (assuming we’re right about Jon), are the last of the Targaryens. Not counting Aemon who is too old and feeble to rule.
13. Whew, look at the list of demands in the treatise. Its more unbelievable as each item is read. Young as he is, I felt the terms could have been better. What's your thoughts?
The terms suck. Robb is making the same mistakes almost every one who is given power makes. Granted he’s young, but I’m not liking him much or his so-called counsel.
14. Was Robb wise in letting the River lords depart? Maybe he could have granted them a reprieve instead of permanently? I can't help feeling that divided like this is not good.
Stupid! They had nothing to return to really and ended up worse off than if they’d stayed.
Most of them are dead now. Mistake after mistake after mistake, He’s not much better than Joffrey!
15. Theon is a wildcard. We will soon be having from his POV (self: no sides!) Do you think his going to his father heralding some thing? Any theories?
Lordy lordy, things are so complicated. I don’t trust Theon any farther than I could throw him. In other words, not at all. Robb is a blind idiot for trusting Theon, just as his father was a blind idiot to trust Littlefinger and Varys.
16. Another theory question: Which would you prefer: Robb aligning with Renly or with Stannis or maybe Dany? At this rate, aligning with Renly is the possible solution since I think we are seeing Robb's inexperience with war here.
Renly is also an idiot. I think of him as a namby pamby strutting peacock. Aligning with him is not the answer. Neither is aligning with Stannis. He would never agree to it anyway. I’d like to see him align with Dany if she can gather a great host and bring it over the sea in time. With her dragons as her proof of strength and the superstitions of the time helping her cause, she shouldn’t have a problem gathering a great army.
Questions Chapter 8 (Tyrion) - Chapter 11 (Theon)17. Tyrion is flexing his power; think there will be repercussions? If so, from whom? Do you trust Ser Jacelyn Bywater to be loyal to Tyrion? Or to Varys?
Cersei and Joffrey will definitely have something to say, but all they can do is bluster. With the power of his father behind him, Tyrion is in a good, if tricky, position, a much better position than Eddard was in, for sure.
18. “The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling.” Varys made this statement. What is your current take on him? Or hasn't it changed.
It hasn’t changed. He said he is loyal to the realm, but I find that hard to believe. The realm is who rules it. The realm can’t rule itself.
19. I wondered briefly about the “sudden plague of holy men” brought forth from the comet (Varys tells Tyrion); then I began to really wonder about them after reading of Theon’s uncle, the priest of the Drowned God, Aeron Greyjoy.
Jeez, how many religions are there in this book? It’s so confusing as to who worships what.
20. Arya and Bull; think they’ll become allies? Looking at the map, they are not even half way to their destination and Arya is seeing a lot of “scorched earth” from the warring factions; what effect will this have on her?
I’m hoping Bull and Arya end up at Winterfell.
21. Do you think the wolves Arya encountered in the forest knew she was who she was? (That they knew Nymeria and thus recognized her – or just that she was a Stark?)
I think there was some sort of recognition. Hard to say though.
22. What is your take on Davos? Cautious, loyal, trustworthy, wily? Is there a distinction between him as a smuggler and Salladhor Saan as a pirate?
I’d rather deal with a smuggler than a pirate. I think a pirate has fewer rules to live by. I like Davos, so far.
23. What is your opinion of the whole “Sword of Fire/Red Sword of Heroes” scene? What of Salladhor Saan’s recounting of the tale of Lightbringer?
Poppycock and superstition. I don’t like Saan, he seems very slimy and much like Varys. I believe he sails to the free cities, so I wonder if he hasn’t heard word about Dany and her dragons and is keeping it to himself until it suits him to reveal it.
24. King Stannis has burned the Seven gods and put his faith in his “red hawk”. Davos warns him his people will not love him for this. Comments?
I agree 100%. I believe Stannis is a doomed man because he is so unbending. I do like his letters proclaiming the incest between Cersei and Jaime resulting in Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. OMG, that is one ballsy move and given how the people love to gossip, there will be many who believe it.
25. Theon Greyjoy was getting a blow-job while thinking of his coming crown. A bit arrogant, right?
Omg, another jackass thinking he’s going to be king. I didn’t trust him and I was right. This is all Robert’s fault and it goes back to what he thought Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Until I’m told otherwise I don’t believe Rhaegar raped Lyanna. I think she was willing and loved him. She certainly didn’t appear to like Robert at all. At least that’s my impression. Every bit of the mess the land is in now is all Robert’s fault. I didn’t think I could think any less of him. I was wrong.
26. Like Theon, I fear I know which unprotected plum Lord Balon is planning on taking. You?
Uh, oh. I have a bad feeling about Winterfell. However, Theon’s father has command of ships and Winterfell is inland. King’s Landing, however, is on the shore. It is also pretty much undefended at this time. Hmmm…I hope he’s going to sail around to King’s Landing and take the Iron Throne since he’s the Lord of the Iron Islands, but I have a feeling he’s going to take revenge’s path and go for Winterfell.
Response to Carol's answers18. He said he is loyal to the realm, but I find that hard to believe. The realm is who rules it. The realm can’t rule itself.
Well, like just about everyone else, Varys must have some idea who the best person to rule the realm is. Based on his logic, he doesn't have to be loyal to the person currently on the throne if he doesn't think that person is the most fit to rule (but he'll pretend to be until it no longer suits his needs). And to be honest, I don't think anyone can argue that Joffrey is fit to rule considering he's one sadistic little brat.
So, I don't think Varys was spouting BS, he's just not completely open and honest. That being said, I don't like Varys and I never did, because he's too tricky and you never know if you can trust his word. As a reader, that can be very frustrating.
@Carol & Sandy: I don't like Melisandre either!
#22 - I like Davos also.#23 - Now that's an interesting idea.
#25 - "Omg, another jackass thinking he’s going to be king."
FOFLMAO!
@ LauraYou have some good points about Varys. "For the greater good..." only goes so far sometimes and is open for interpretation.
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Questions for Chapter 12(Daenerys) - Chapter 15(Thyrion)27. Interesting that the comet came into view when the dragons were born. Daenarys sees this as a sign of where she should take her people. Interesting. Any ideas as to how she'll come to be a contender for the throne? What do you think of the three people brought to her by Jhogo?
Interesting interpretation, but she didn't really have any other direction she could safely go. I'm not sure it's a good thing, those people. I mean, a warlock, a merchant prince and a woman of the Shadow? Need more info, but I'm pretty wary of these three.
28. Finally find out more about Ser Jorah. Do you think his feelings for Daenerys will benefit her or prove to be a problem later?
Hopefully, they will be a benefit.
29. Jon and his "brothers" are finding abandoned and empty towns. Forest void of wild life. Anyone thinking we're going to have an interesting night very soon? Where did everyone go?
It's not good when the animals leave an area. Like a forest fire and the animals flee. It's going to get interesting soon is my guess.
30. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. Anyone surprised that Yoren didn't let the soldiers in? Why would they kill everyone including the men in black? Do you think they were after Gendry?
I was not surprised by Yoren's actions. I think they were just plundering and killing wherever they could while on the lookout for Dondarrion. Isn't he the one that was mentioned who was raiding and killing the Lannisters and their allies? I think he was mentioned in Catelyn's chapter.
31. Do you think Arya will regret helping to free the three men who were shackled in the wagon?
I worry about them. Maybe they'll be loyal to her for saving them from a death by fire which is one of the most horrible ways to die, in my opinion.
32. Cersei must really have hated Robert. She keeps killing his bastards. Do you think it's because they might make people think her children weren't his, or did she just hate Robert that much that she wanted to wipe all signs of him from the earth?
I think she's killing any and all possible contenders to the throne, plain and simple.
33. What do you think of Littlefinger's plan to have Stannis' daughter's paternity come into question?
Sneaky, clever and slimy, just like him.
34. What did you think of the secret passage? I had no idea what Tyrion was up to.
Now, that was a surprise and I believe we have an answer to who one of the mysterious dudes was that Arya saw under the castle. The scarred face and boiled leather disguise of Varys matches one of the guys. I still believe the other guy is Magister Illyrio.
@Carol#27 - I don't trust them either!
#34 - That was a surprise, wasn't it! You think it is Magister Illyrio? Really? Wow!
Questions for Chapters 16 (Bran) - Chapter 19 (Arya)I am so loving this series...
35) Thought it was fun that Bran tried to do a little matchmaking between Ser Roderick and Lady Hornwood. He has so much to learn about the way of things. His dream this time recounted what happened to him when he was injured. Do you think he finally remembers everything? Do you think if it's ever revealed what happened that Jaime's fate will change? Any thoughts on what his punishment should be?
I think he remembers now. I've always believed Jaime should die. I understand he makes a great hostage, but still...
36) What medicine/potion do you think Tyrion took from Varys?
It was Grand Maester Pycelle not Varys. I think it might be the same stuff Maester Cressen had in the prologue, the Strangler.
37) We now know that Tyrion is the one who sent men to look for Arya. What do you think of all the plans he's putting into place?
Interesting, very interesting. I can't figure out exactly whose side he's on, except his own, of course.
38)Do you think Sansa is wise to team up with ser Dontos? Does she have any other options?
She is so screwed. If she survives this series I'll be surprised.
39) The hound makes me nervous when he's around Sansa. Anyone else feeling this way?
I can't figure him out. He acts one way and then he's gentle. He acts like he likes Sansa but is disgusted with himself for doing so. He reminds me a bit of Snape in the Harry Potter books.
40)Gah! Arya just can't seem to get a break. Every time I think things have gotten really bad they get worse. Anyone else worried here?
Man. She.Cannot.Catch.A.Break! Now, captured and Needle taken away. Gah, a 100x over!!
41) I'm really starting to like Gendry. I like how he called Arya on being a girl. He was funny when he found out she was a lady. Any thoughts/opinions on Gendry?
I like him. How cool if he ends up King and Arya is his wife? LOL
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oops double post. I'll reserve for the next answers. LOL
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152. ...think the Hound is in love with Sansa? I do.
At first I was a little creeped out by the weird relationship between Sansa and the Hound that first night she found him drunk. But the more I saw them interact and the more I thought about it, the more I actually kind of liked the idea of Sansa and the Hound. I not-so-secretly ship them.