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NPR's call for the best SF&F books of all time
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Shel, Moderator
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Aug 03, 2011 05:00PM
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Carolyn wrote: "Ack! I can't vote at all - the slider on the side is moving but it isn't scrolling the list down at all. Wah!"
I couldn't vote (same problem) from internet explorer but was able to through Firefox.
Marty wrote: "Carolyn wrote: "Ack! I can't vote at all - the slider on the side is moving but it isn't scrolling the list down at all. Wah!"
I couldn't vote (same problem) from internet explorer but was able to through Firefox."
Explorer worked fine for me. So did Google Chrome.
I agree with there being holes and that bothering people. What I don't understand is the general desire to be able to vote for more than 10 books and the amount of people who did so on the previous round. Yes, it's hard as hell to try to narrow it down from so many great options, but isn't that the point? Someone help me out here, because I really don't get it.
Mod
Kathi wrote: "I voted, but it was hard. I had 10 before I was even halfway through the alphabetical order list. I kept having to go back and uncheck something so I could check something else."The same thing happened to me.
I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that happened to. I was trying to keep count & be picky. I wasn't happy with leaving some out.
Yeah, I had to remove things so others could fit more than once.
I wanted a definite 2 more but 5 would have made it easier.
Marty wrote: "Well Jim a suprising number of the NPR posts have 6 or 10 rather than 5. I tried to read them all but didn't have the patience. I nominatedSpeaker for the Dead Orson Scott Card
Doomsday Book C..."
I so like your list, I am very late to this debate....pondering choices.
Well Bookbrow you can vote in the second round where in some sense it is easier to vote because the list is finite.
Well, it really was just a beauty contest after all, wasn't it. The fact that there was not one C.J. Cherryh title anywhere seems like heresy to me.
Mod
Jim wrote: "Well, it really was just a beauty contest after all, wasn't it. The fact that there was not one C.J. Cherryh title anywhere seems like heresy to me."I agree there were a lot of votes for some books just because people recognized title &/or the books are currently popular so must be good. Quite a few aren't up to the mark, IMO. I just finished reading Jim Butcher's "Codex Alera" series
http://www.goodreads.com/series/45545...
It was entertaining, but certainly not an enduring classic like LOTR or Narnia. No where near the same class.
I find myself doubting that most of the voters read most of the books. While Jim and I may not agree on what books go where I do agree that there are some here the presence of which on the list at all I can't explain...or have imagined. Oh well, I'll never be part of the majority. I do agree with LotR being in the #1 spot.
Jim wrote: "Well, it really was just a beauty contest after all, wasn't it. The fact that there was not one C.J. Cherryh title anywhere seems like heresy to me."I know! It makes me a little sad that I voted for
The Faded Sun Trilogy. . . I suspect she suffered from having her fans' votes split, and maybe if I had just voted for the Foreigner series she would have made it. . . :(
The only way for the vote to actually be fair is if all voters have read all titles and can make an informed decision. Since that is not possible, it will, inevitably, be biased by popularity.The rule I set for myself was that I would only vote for novles that I had read. For series though, I ended up voting for a couple that I had only partially completed, but enjoyed immensely.
Unfortunately, I'm not as well-read as I would like so there a lot of classic works on the list that I just had to pass by.
I don't know how other people approached it, but I thought that was the fairest way.
I don't understand how something comprised of people listing their favorites or the books they considered best, then voting from a list of those most popular based on their own opinions is considered can be considered fair. Yes, there is going to be bias towards what people have actually consumed, but no one ever claimed this was supposed to be a definitive list. The nerd rage perplexes me.
They say this is a list of people's "favorite" SciFI and Fantasy books; this doe not mean they are the best, but simply the most popular. I would liken this list to a beauty contest; different styles for different people. How would,d you make this list fair?
Yeah, I really have no problem with the list. It's just based on user votes so it's not going to perfect (if that's even possible). If nothing else, I think it gives a lot people a whole bunch of great recommendations.
Mod
Mike, I used a similar rule for myself. So there were books and/or series that I know people have raved about, but since I haven't read them, I couldn't vote for them as my favorites.
And I agree with what you and others have said--it really isn't the 100 "best"--it's the 100 that the most people said they liked. And I printed it off so I can count how many of them I've read (haven't had a chance to do that yet) and then use the list as another way of finding things to read that I haven't yet read.
'nerd rage'? I wasn't raging, although I suppose I'm kind of a nerd. More wood or computers than books, though.I actually expected it to be more of a popularity contest.
Jim wrote: "'nerd rage'? I wasn't raging, although I suppose I'm kind of a nerd. More wood or computers than books, though.I actually expected it to be more of a popularity contest."
I didn't mean only in this group/thread. It seems to be causing a lot of outraged posts in most of the sci-fi and fantasy forums I frequent.
That makes sense about the other threads. I don't know why anyone would waste the energy getting upset though.
Well I hate Lord of The Rings. Read 1.5 volumes could not stay with it. Thought when the movies came out maybe I could get the story in a reasonable time, could not stay awake. Likewise hated Dune. Used to be embarassed by not liking such classics. Now I recognize that I like space ships, exploration, time travel and aliens. Do not however need or care about the explanation to make such things possible. Not so much interested in magic, vampires, swords and horses, or zombies. I found Codex Alera both more entertaining and more profound than Dresden but tastes vary. It is interesting to me that my tastes are neither popular (I accepted that when watching "Home Alone" in the theater I could not help laughing at what was meant to be the poignant moment and annoyed the people who did find it poignant) nor a match for the highly literate (harder to accept personally but don't care now, I'm not reading for a grade). I just occasionally find it a bit lonely.....
I based it on books I'd read, then further split it into would stay in the burning room to rescue these books!
Well, I was pleased as punch the The Book of the New Sun (Shadow & Claw then Sword & Citadel) got in, even if it was at No. 87! No wonder Wolfe hasn't won a Hugo yet. I did vote for a few that I knew were hopeless causes (Simak's Way Station and McKillip's Song for the Basilisk) just because I wanted to show 'nuff respect. :)
Mod
Marty, I first joined an online SF/F book group (back on Amazon when they had discussion groups, then they got rid of them, and now I guess they're back) because none of my friends, acquaintances, or coworkers read SF/F (other than Harry Potter). My husband does and a few of my relatives, but I had no one to talk to about the books I enjoyed so much. And that's still true. My friends will ask me what I've been reading (since they do know I love to read) and then look blank when I describe my current book.
I occasionally read other genres but I rarely seem to be reading anything that my friends are reading. And that's OK... I fit in here!
A lot of us face that Kathi. I tried to start a novel reading and discussion group. Didn't really work, I got 3 people. It lasted a few months. Oh well.
I was once asked if I was buying a book for my husband as I'd dared to walk into a specialist shop. They were shocked that I actually wanted a book to read. That was a good 20 years ago, the shop eventually closed. Perhaps they should have welcomed female shoppers.
Helen wrote: "I was once asked if I was buying a book for my husband as I'd dared to walk into a specialist shop. They were shocked that I actually wanted a book to read. That was a good 20 years ago, the shop e..."I used to get that a lot in the early 90s, but it was more often in comics shops, video game stores, or collectible card shops than in bookstores. (The only bookstores I generally frequented were used bookshops, and those were often owned/run by women or open-minded men, anyhow.) I always thought it was a silly decision (from a 'business sense' perspective) to alienate 50% of the human race and hence (if profit is your main concern) 50% of your potential customer base. It's bad form, bad manners, bad mindset, and really bad business.
Well, ladies (Helen, Kathi and Candiss), I feel your pain, but from the male perspective. I'm pretty well surrounded by literate females in my volunteer work in the Friends of the Library bookstore. But they have left me in charge of what they like to call "The Men's Section", i.e., International Intrigue and Espionage, True Crime, Science Fiction and Fantasy, Gothic and Horror. To make it worse, they refer to the SF&F & Horror as the "Weird Section". The upside to all this is that they pretty much leave me alone when it comes to decisions about what to sell and what to pass along to other charities. I've even added a shelf for all media related books, have a seperate mass market PB section and a small section for vintage SF & F periodicals.I may not get any respect, but it's still a full life. :)
Jim wrote: "they refer to the SF&F & Horror as the "Weird Section"....""Weird" = interesting and stand-out and not cookie-cutter and not mass-market/off-the-rack...which is a huge ol' compliment. It's the loss of your co-workers if they don't see it that way!
Jim wrote: "The upside to all this is that they pretty much leave me alone when it comes to decisions about what to sell and what to pass along to other charities...."
Right there, you see Jim...that there is called "heaven." ;) Enjoy!
I do feel for you that they seem to have some sort of discriminatory vibe going on. That's deeply uncool no matter the corner from which it originates. I like to call myself an "equalist", and I get just as irked when a man gets marginalized in some way as I do when the situation is in the reverse. Luckily, you seem to have found a positive spot in the situation, however. I do hope those gals are at least good-natured and respectful, even if they aren't being fair.
On another note: They have an interesting bias... I've known far more female readers of True Crime and Gothic lit, and easily equal numbers of female to male readers of fantasy and horror. The only genres from that list that I've personally known more males to read is the Espionage and (hard) Sci-Fi. Interesting.
Helen, Candiss, I doubt they were trying to alienate you. It was just unusual to see the female of the species in game and comic shops a few years ago. The same went for fantasy and science fiction sections of book stores. They were probably just surprised and didn't know how to talk to women. Be kind.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Helen, Candiss, I doubt they were trying to alienate you. It was just unusual to see the female of the species in game and comic shops a few years ago. The same went for fantasy and science fiction..."Mike, I assure you I always was kind, as well as civil and self-controlled, even when/if they were unkind to me. (To the best of my recollection...it would be very unlike me to behave otherwise.) I am a very civil and diplomatic person, or at least I strive to be. (For the record, it often was far more than mere surprise, even to the point of outright insults, refusing to ring up my purchases, or making untoward comments about my body, etc. In these cases, I simply walked out. Other times it was as you suggest.) But years later, as the topic comes up, it is interesting to compare experiences. :)
This is one reason that, even though it certainly has its pits of awfulness, I love the internet. I've never personally come across any examples of nastiness directed at one gender by the other while on Goodreads, for example. I appreciate the egalitarian atmosphere. :)
Anyhow, I'm certainly not trying to stir anything up here, and I hope you haven't misunderstood my words and intent. I was merely commiserating with others who mentioned experiences I can relate to...and I think many of us here, regardless of gender or any other statistical signifier, have experienced bias or discrimination or rude opinions due to our love of sf/f literature.
No, no I was being rather light hearted about it. I never saw anything like you describe in the game shops or comic shops I've been in. Had I they'd have lost my custom also. I can't imagine a store actually insulting a customer...I mean I've seen it in disagreements and such but never a store who's owner would alienate as you said half their prospective customers. I'm sorry anyone would experience that and think leaving was the least you could do.The local game shop (an so far as I know it's the only surviving one in the area) always had a mostly male clientele (when I was a regular. My D&D group never managed to get back together this tear. BUT a few years ago I gamed in the shops back room at least one night a week). There were maybe 25% to 30% female customers and gamers and were always valued. I was in a few games with both males and females. It can obviously add to the game.
Mike wrote: "And how is it that Jim Butcher's Codex Alera made the list, but not the Dresden Files? Blasphemy!"I thought that was strange myself
Candiss wrote: "I do hope those gals are at least good-natured and respectful, even if they aren't being fair."Yes. They are all very good-natured and just like it when, for example, They can find a book that belongs in the "weird" section after I've dumped a half dozen mysteries on them.
Candiss wrote: "On another note: They have an interesting bias... I've known far more female readers of True Crime and Gothic lit, and easily equal numbers of female to male readers of fantasy and horror."
You have a point there. Most of the buyers of, say Ann Rule books, are women. And I've sold several copies of Kostova's The Historian to female customers. It's all good.
I'll try not to stray off topic any further.
You mean it's possible to "stray off topic". I thought the idea was that the conversation just "moved along" and if we weren't interested in what was being talked about we just "moved along" till we were interested...???? Oops.
I'm just used to moderators looking over my shoulder. You aren't paying any attention to this are you Stefan??
How can talking books be off topic?;-)
Women weren't the only ones who were snubbed in the SF&F sales/loans. Back when I was a kid, SF&F books would NEVER have been considered for a 'best of' list by most of the adults I knew. The bookmobile ladies were downright rude about getting any such novels for me to read & often wouldn't let me check them out if the covers were the least bit racy, which they often were.
Two of my schools (both Episcopalian) libraries were even worse about having any. I could find horribly written westerns, though.
There were a few exceptions. I remember LoTR was one such, but most were considered trash that young gentlemen should not be perverted by. If I hadn't had a box of my late father's books, I think I would have gone crazy. As it was, Mom got rid of 3 boxes of them so I had to spend decades rebuilding my Edgar Rice Burroughs & Robert E. Howard collections. She thought they were trash, too.
I have to say it is nice to not be alone Candiss. There were two branches of the 'comic' shop in Manchester. The other one though I was odd but were quite polite and welcoming. I've been reading fantasy for 30 years and watching scifi since dad sat me on his knee. It still seems to be mainly men at the bookstore in my fav dept. I wonder if some women think they shouldn't like it so don't try. My closest friends like crime and the dreaded chick-lit.
Have to say Jim, I'd be in your dept for all my reading needs!
Mod
We own a lot of SF/F, by far the majority of our books are that genre. And most of the espionage/intrigue in our personal library are books my husband picked out, although I read a lot of them, too. Mysteries seem to intertwine with intrigue or "thrillers" and we both read them as well. I guess the other genre that is more "mine" is historical fiction.
Jim wrote: "My top five, restricted to SF only:Dune
The City And The Stars
Ender's Game
The Foundation Trilogy
The Voyage Of The Space Beagle was the 1st SFBC book I read, and The City And The Stars shortly thereafter, back in the mid '50's.
Hey, Kernos, just to let you know, the link that you have to The Voyage of the Space Beagle actually goes to a finance textbook.
Mod
I'm here :) I don't think it's sufficiently off topic to merit moderator intervention. Yet. *looks stern*
{I figured that since it was in General SF&F discussion, and it was civil, it was perfectly fine for the conversation to meander around. That's why (other than I had related stuff to post, myself) I didn't feel it warranted any sort of moddy crankiness. It also seemed like getting involved myself was a good way to suggest that hey, a mod is here (even if it's Deputy Gal as opposed to the Big Boss.) ;) }As for the final NPR results...well, I'm not a fan of Lord of the Rings, myself. I've read the whole cycle, and while I definitely understand why it is so beloved, I'm not a big good-vs-evil with-elves-in quest story reader. But I was pretty much expecting to see Tolkien on top, as he very frequently is. I am pleased to see Douglas Adams at #2, as I've known so many people who were introduced to SF lit with the Hitchhiker's series, and even though I didn't vote for it myself, as there were too many other options that had more impact on me over the years, I'm glad it's left its mark on so many readers.
Whether or not I personally love all of them, I don't dispute the quality of writing or depth of imagination of any but a handful of the selections in the top 100. (I like The Stand but find the ending infuriating; I can't love Robert Jordan or Piers Anthony; and there are several listed that I haven't read, so I can't form a fair opinion of them.) But overall, I think it's a fair list, even though I would love to have seen a few others there, of course. It's a lot more diverse and rounded than I expected, to be honest.
Jim, my dad had the same attitude about comic books. I was an adult before I managed to fill in my collections (which I was then subsequently forced to sell). Science Fiction while hard to find wasn't censored (as such). I got them to let me join the Science Fiction Book Club when I hit 14.
My dad still rants about his mum throwing all his comics out and how rich he'd be now.Do we end up with an overall winners list from the top 100. Interested to see what is liked by the majority.
Beyond Reality
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