The Extra Cool Group! (of people Michael is experimenting on) discussion
Pertaining to the project
>
The Top Reviewers List: Are you a pandering vote whore?
i would like to be a vote whore, but it's pretty difficult to do when one primarily reads science and math :/. i've got to have one of the lower reviews-to-votes ratios on this site.
The math trolls might say "Next you'll tell us that one and one equals two!)"
When I was studying engineering and taking advanced math classes, it was tedious having to devote 5 pages to an equation and then finding out you came up with the wrong answer. It's much easier being an art student. I find I make more friends with my doodles than with a math equation. Joel (reviewer in this forum with cat pictures) will tell you that people respond more to graphics than to equations.You should do an experiment, Nick. Post awesome math equations in your reviews and see whether that increased your votes. Failing that, you can borrow cat pictures from Joel.
"It's much easier being an art student."I don't disagree with this in the least.
I forgot to mention that it was a whole lot more fulfilling and fun for me. I have always loved art. It was my passion, but I was discouraged from it. I never regretted my decision to switch to art. It's a spiritual discovery for me.
It is always nice to get votes, but reviewing is mostly a labor of love. My friend numbers certainly attest to that. I pander only to my own sensibilities.
Nah, I became a "top reviewer" by accident. I don't have the time to pursue fame here, too.
I don't whore for votes, but I really get a thrill at seeing #35 Best Review on my profile. (At one time, I was #24, but I slipped.
To the tune of Hallelujah by Jeff buckley - sorry, i mean Leonard CohenNow I've heard there was a great review
That pleased the many and not the few
But you don't really care for votes much, do ya?
If I could bring myself to read Twilight
Or something popular and trite
My parody would earn your Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!
Gonna have to pursue ya
Hallelujah
Yes I mean to accrue ya
I did my best, it was all for you
I couldn't write, so I tried to review
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool ya
And even though it all went wrong
I'll stand before the Goodreads throng
And every vote inspires my Hallelujah !
All those Joyces and Dickens, DeLillos, Capotes
The reviews were great but inspired no votes
You couldn’t even get one from Tallulah
At the library you told her about Goodreads
And mentioned your insatiable needs
But as she stamped your Marcel Proust she looked straight through ya
She didn’t accede to ya
Didn’t attach herself to ya
from a review by... er... me!
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
How's that for vote whoring?
I have a LOT to say about the original question, though it's the middle of the night so I can't say it all and what I do get to will probably be incomprehensible.I used to be insanely addicted to this website, but the whole voting thing is a big part of what made me ultimately back off it (which is good -- things were way too intense a couple years ago). Way back when, I was very pro-vote function when they first introduced the idea, because I thought (rightly) that this would make it easier for me to find and befriend the most entertaining reviewers. Remember that back in the day, there were no votes, and I think it was just the longest review that'd come up first in the list of reviews when you searched for a book! But anyway. Yeah. Okay, here goes the disclosure.
I happen to be a profoundly competitive person, and I hate that about myself. So when the voting thing got really big on here, two very bad aspects of myself -- the competitive jock and the self-flagellating idealist -- entered into violent, epic, and incredibly stupid battle. Remember I was already helplessly obsessed with writing book reports on here before there was voting. When the voting came in, I could feel the Dark Side tugging hard on my worst nature.... So I reacted against this by becoming ridiculously determined to do whatever I could NOT to feel like a vote whore! One of the main things I resolved was never to have more than 99 friends, because everyone knows that the more friends you have, the more votes you get, and one sure way to demonstrate my moral purity to myself seemed to be to get rid of old friends whenever I made new ones (this was before the "following" thing was an option; I think the friends/vote correlation's less stark now). The unfortunate fallout of this was that I pissed a lot of people off and probably made some sensitive sorts feel bad, which I now really regret because gosh, who cares?
Well, that should be the new Bookface motto to go under the bee, because like yeah, gosh, who cares if David hates Jane Austen or whatever.... um, well, a lot of us do. That's kind of what unites us, is being obsessive freaks who are easily whipped into states of hysterical frenzy. Anyway, the vote thing felt super fraught to me, especially once all this politics and etiquette grew up around it; like yeah, it becomes this weird kind of primate-lice-eating behavior where we're all supposed to be voting for each other's stuff so it becomes meaningless, and starts replicating the very "IRL" social relationships I come here to avoid! Plus, I personally got sick of reading reviews (sick of writing them too), and so all my "like" votes felt disingenuous because honestly, I'm pretty maxed out on this genre. I love reading reviews to get a sense of what my booksters thought of a particular book, but I'm pretty over reading reviews just to read them, which I used to love doing.
This site's changed a lot since the time when it was a frighteningly huge part of my life. It hasn't gotten worse, but it's different from what I first loved, and I guess I'm different too, and so now I don't care, in a comfortable way. It's like how when you're a teenager or in your early twenties, you might get all upset about hipsters or about people trying to do whatever particular "thing" it is that you think you have a special handle on, and then you get older and you don't give a shit because none of that has much to do with you anymore. I don't care anymore because the voting just seems not to have any relevance to the things on this website that I care about. Like, I finally realized that it was really stupid that I was being such an asshole about keeping my friend list down, because I should've felt comfortable with my basic non-vote-whorishness. Like, there were a couple really obvious ways that I could've been a vote whore if I'd wanted to demonstrate my having cracked the Goodreads code for high vote counts (e.g., reading Twilight!). And then I also realized that I'm way too old to be concerned about not how many votes I'm getting, but concerned about being concerned about how many votes I'm getting.... oh my LORD, look at the ABJECT HUMILIATION this website has visited upon me!
Anyway, my other, way less embarrassing point with all this is to say that these days I interpret "like" votes just to mean that people have read my review, which is nice, but what I really want -- and miss -- are the COMMENTS. Not, "lol gr8 review u r the nu michiko kakutani" kind of comments, but (ideally, un-trollish) responses to what I've said and to the book in question. I mean, that's why I'm here, is I want to talk about books. And also yeah, good point above, I do get a thrill when I see someone's "to-readed" a book after I've reviewed it, and even more when they actually read it, IF they like it (otherwise I feel terrible -- guilty and/or offended). But I get sad when I write a review that gets a lot of votes and doesn't get any comments at all. I would way rather not have voting at all if it meant there would be more substantive commenting.
Holy shit. I just did that. I just wrote some completely insane, rambling screed that started out with how I'm not addicted to this website anymore. I guess addiction really is a persistent and powerful thing....
Oh. And I have another thing I meant to say, which is that when I look at which of my reviews have gotten the most votes it makes me sad, because they're mostly really crappy and I'm embarrassed to have written them. But they're of very popular books and nasty, flippant reviews, so they rose to the top through the voting system. This is another aspect of why I got super depressed about the voting in a way that helped me back off this website. It bothered me enough that it seemed to say something significant about Bookface itself. The voting seemed like the anti-comments, representing the dull-witted, angry, unthoughtful, wordless mob! In other words, that same world I'd come here to escape! Getting votes didn't mean I'd written a good review; it meant that I'd written a review that had the things that would make it popular. And the thing was -- maybe because I'm competitive, maybe just because I'm crazy -- when they made me feel that way I couldn't just ignore the votes. They seemed like they had a larger meaning, and the whole thing made me feel kind of bummed out about Bookface books and I guess the world in general.One thing I do like though -- then I'm going to bed! srsly! -- is that you can see who's voted for your stuff now. I don't pander to a crowd or care about my numbers, but I definitely have a few people that I'm trying to impress or at least communicate stuff to. So I do still care a lot about votes, in that I am thrilled when certain people "like" a review because it means that they've read it, and they're sort of like my real life friends who I need to tell big gossip, only on here I just need to tell them about this book that I read. So I like that.
The end.
Jessica wrote: "I definitely have a few people that I'm trying to impress or at least communicate stuff to. So I do still care a lot about votes, in that I am thrilled when certain people "like" a review because it means that they've read it, and they're sort of like my real life friends who I need to tell big gossip, only on here I just need to tell them about this book that I read. So I like that."Exactly. That's all I really care about when it comes to the voting stuff. I got roped into the numbers game briefly. Glad to have unroped myself since then. It leads to all kinds of ugliness (for me at least), as you mention. I identify with what you're saying about feeling good about not caring about the quantity of votes a review gathers or much of the drama that erupts in the wake of the collective votechase. I'm still active on GR and vote for a lot of reviews but have always been more active in commenting than reviewing. Thoughtful or interesting comments on reviews of mine give me more of a warm glow than votes, but of course its also nice to have both types of acknowledgment in tandem.
I don't have anything really to add to the vote whore discussion, but reading through this thread reminded me that I owe some of you guys HUGETIME for introducing me to books that have blown/altered my mind. Kowalski and DFJ, my Goodreads godparents, unknowingly sucked me into reading Proust long before I tried to wheedle my way into their good graces. And I think I've already thanked Choupette a couple times for inspiring me to read To the Lighthouse, but I can't say it enough. And I'd never have been so bard-inspired without Elizabeth. Ahem well, carry on.
Ok, I'll say something about voting after all. I don't know if I ever managed to distinguish whether I was happy about tallying votes or whether I was simply happy that people were actually, actively taking an interest in something I had written, particularly if these voters were reviewers that I deeply respected. The latter was probably the main factor, as I'd say that compliments and engaging comments from certain people were worth hundreds of votes. Ah, whom am I kidding. Maybe a dozen votes. Or seven-ish.
And I'll tell you guys the real secret to voting success...stop wasting your time writing reviews and move to a small country. Straight up the charts.
Jessica, your post made me glad I don't hardly get any votes.
Jimmy, I don't think mine is a normal response to the whole thing. I'm psychologically damaged.
Bram wrote: "And I'll tell you guys the real secret to voting success...stop wasting your time writing reviews and move to a small country. Straight up the charts. "I think there are way under 20 members in my country :-)
Here's a question - does anyone actually look at these lists ?http://www.goodreads.com/user/best_re...
do you, Paul?you're #16 I see!
Congrats.
Once (for one week) I was #24.
But I don't review enough.
Paul wrote: "Here's a question - does anyone actually look at these lists ?http://www.goodreads.com/user/best_re..."
Every Saturday morning.
really? wow.I look now and then. like about every 3 months...when I think to do so.
Number 16 huh? It would be much higher if it weren't for those pesky romance fans!! Durn them!
Nancy wrote: "Paul wrote: "Here's a question - does anyone actually look at these lists ?http://www.goodreads.com/user/best_re..."
Every Saturday morning."
I don't usually leave the house on Saturday morning until I look at the top 50.
I'm planning my move to Liechtenstein. Or possibly Andorra. Or Tuvalu. Or Lake Wobegon. Because no matter what idiotic scoring system or metric you throw at me, I have to excel at it. Because I've apparently never moved on from mid-adolescence. Sigh.
Andorra is nice.Lake Wobegon! NEVER.
How about Belize...or ...Nicaragua?
Dan wrote: "I don't usually leave the house on Saturday morning until I look at the top 50."It is something I did when I first joined Goodreads, long before I even made the list.
It's fun to see my friends there and I like seeing what top reviewers enjoy reading and how they feel about books I like or dislike.
You don't actually have to move. You just have to tell Goodreads you did. Nobody will know ;)
Jessica wrote: "Andorra is nice.
Lake Wobegon! NEVER."
Oi! Whatcha got against Lake Wobegon!
Actually, it's super crappy cold here, so I wouldn't move here either.
Lake Wobegon! NEVER."
Oi! Whatcha got against Lake Wobegon!
Actually, it's super crappy cold here, so I wouldn't move here either.
Hey, I like Minneapolis and Minnesota, it's Keillor I don't like!!
Paul wrote: "Here's a question - does anyone actually look at these lists ?"To answer your question... um.... HELL YES!
Also I would like to address the misnomer in the title of this thread. TOP reviewers are the reviewers who write the MOST reviews -- regardless of length, quality, or votes -- while BEST reviewers are the reviewers with the most votes, irrespective of the number of reviews that they have written.
In THEORY -- please note that I said IN THEORY -- the best reviewers list is meritocratic, but who the hell cares about the top reviewers? Why would I be interested to know that Jennifer Wardrip wrote 4099 reviews? Does this imply that any of them are good, useful, and longer than ten words?
See, the best reviewers list has a comprehensible raison d’etre, but what relevance or usefulness is there in knowing who is the 'top user' (an intervention may be in order for these people), and who is the 'top reader'? These are ridiculous lists. It astonishes me that they got rid of the 'top profiles' list but somehow imagined there might be some reason for maintaining a 'most followed' list.
But I have to remind myself that these are the same Goodreads powers-that-be that supposed a mascot contest would be a great idea and yet lacked the very basic wherewithal to investigate whether most of the entries were original artwork, when very obviously (even to an untrained eye) most of them were not.
I'm sorry. I'm sick and cranky today. But come on! There was an EDWARD GOREY DRAWING in the competition! Give me a fricking break!
You should voice your concerns in the Feedback forum. They usually listen to user input. It's not like we don't have a voice in this.I personally rarely look at the top lists.
Jimmy wrote: "You should voice your concerns in the Feedback forum. They usually listen to user input. It's not like we don't have a voice in this."
This is the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Edit: I don't mean to be bitchy here. All of the plagiarism and stuff *was* brought to the attention of MICHEAL, the GR programmer who set up the poll, and he did remove the plagiarism, them put up some other stuff, then repost, whatever, but at that point the whole poll was pretty much fubar. It was just embarrassing to watch happen, and GR's response was bad.
This is the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Edit: I don't mean to be bitchy here. All of the plagiarism and stuff *was* brought to the attention of MICHEAL, the GR programmer who set up the poll, and he did remove the plagiarism, them put up some other stuff, then repost, whatever, but at that point the whole poll was pretty much fubar. It was just embarrassing to watch happen, and GR's response was bad.
No, they do often respond well to comments, but the poll was a mess from start to finish. I edited my comment above - I wasn't trying to be mean to you, and I think it sounded that way.
The kids here really are above average, though.
Jessica wrote: "Hey, I like Minneapolis and Minnesota, it's Keillor I don't like!!"
Keillor is pretty embarrassing.
Keillor is pretty embarrassing.
How do Minnesotans feel about him?I'm curious.
We like Mary Tyler Moore better.
Depends on how old you are. :)
Actually, he has a reputation as a genuinely nice guy, and generous, so people like him even if he's sort of annoyingly ubiquitous. He runs a cool bookstore in St Paul, which is a very good place. He did get into a big thing with the local papers 10-15 years ago - they published his address, and then he had a big hissy fit and moved to Denmark. That didn't work out so well, so he moved back. Everyone thought he was a dork for that, but he seems to have gotten over it. There was a spread in Mpls/St Paul magazine, which is the boringest publication ever, on his new house when he moved back with his input, which I thought was funny.
Actually, he has a reputation as a genuinely nice guy, and generous, so people like him even if he's sort of annoyingly ubiquitous. He runs a cool bookstore in St Paul, which is a very good place. He did get into a big thing with the local papers 10-15 years ago - they published his address, and then he had a big hissy fit and moved to Denmark. That didn't work out so well, so he moved back. Everyone thought he was a dork for that, but he seems to have gotten over it. There was a spread in Mpls/St Paul magazine, which is the boringest publication ever, on his new house when he moved back with his input, which I thought was funny.
MST3K is the only claim-to-fame that Minnesota really needs! Can I get an amen??
I dunno, I think being the birthplace of Prince AND Soul Asylum is pretty good, too.
Didn't Keillor come back from Denmark with a Danish wife? and then they had a kid?am I wrong about this?
Classic Prince is good, but I hope you're being wryly ironic about Soul Asylum.
When am I not wryly ironic? And I like Prince in theory more than in practice.
Although, my introduction to alternative music through the radio was basically at the time that Soul Asylum was all the rage and I did enjoy a few of their "hits." And I have sung "Runaway Train" at karaoke.
I think he moved to Denmark with a Danish wife? Then got a divorce, got a new wife, then had the kid? I could be mistaken as well.
Soul Asylum sux, and they are bad in concert. (See what I did there?)
I've met Frank and Trace! MST3K 4evah.
Soul Asylum sux, and they are bad in concert. (See what I did there?)
I've met Frank and Trace! MST3K 4evah.
Considering your painfully hilarious comment right before that troll arrived, I'm guessing it was directed at you, Mariel!