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Kids/Teens Book Club discussion
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Jøℌαᾔηα »ℑ'м α ℓїттł℮ мøяℯ тℌαη υşεℓℯşş« wrote: "You guys are harsh thorough. o_O I wouldn't really worry about all that stuff in a first draft *shrug* But it's up to you."
When I was fifteen years old I posted an unedited paragraph story to the Writer's Digest forums, and I personally asked one of top critics of the site to review it. She politely ripped it apart. Grammar issues, repetitive sentences, melodramatic storytelling - everything was wrong with that story. It was a piece of garbage, but I thought I had something magnificent. It was embarrassing, and I almost cried from her review. But it humbled me, and I am thankful for it. I've learned that you have to detach yourself from your writing when you ask people to review it, and objectively consider their advice.
Constructive criticism makes you stronger as a writer, whatever stage your writing is in. If you ask for an honest opinion, be prepared for it. For me, it's far worse for someone to sugarcoat their review and tell me everything's okay than for someone to honestly point out the errors.
Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Jøℌαᾔηα »ℑ'м α ℓїттł℮ мøяℯ тℌαη υşεℓℯşş« wrote: "You guys are harsh thorough. o_O I wouldn't really worry about all that stuff in a first draft *shrug* But it's up to you."
When I was fifteen yea..."
Yes! Yes! Yes! This is exactly where I stand :) And exactly how did you get such a wonderful chance like that???
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I can be good with criticism; if I detach myself enough and mentally prepare myself. But I haven't really gotten to that stage in my writing yet. P:
Jøℌαᾔηα »ℑ'м α ℓїттł℮ мøяℯ тℌαη υşεℓℯşş« wrote: "I guess. I'm personally really bad with criticism, and I'm more likely to either shut down and ignore everything, or take it to heart and not write for a year . . . so for that reason I guess I ten..."Hey, don't worry about it, Jo. :) You don't need criticism like that right now. I think everyone needs a period when they're still beginning with writing where they shouldn't look for critiques or post it on the internet. You should just write. Don't worry about what others think - just make yourself and God happy with it. There'll come a time when you're ready to give out and receive critiques. But don't let any of that stop you from writing.
Yes, the detachment bit is very very important. My WIP is my baby right now and no one is touching it until I have completed a first draft and made at least two more drafts on it. Then I will detach and set it down for the constructive wolves...if I can find some!
Irene wrote: "Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Jøℌαᾔηα »ℑ'м α ℓїттł℮ мøяℯ тℌαη υşεℓℯşş« wrote: "You guys are harsh thorough. o_O I wouldn't really worry about all that stuff in a first draft *shrug* But it's up to..."
She was a really active participant on the website and a creative writing teacher, so she loved responding to everyone and helping out. When I was there the Writer's Digest forum was a great place for improving writing. ^_^ I don't know how it is now, but I bet it's still the same.
Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Irene wrote: "Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Jøℌαᾔηα »ℑ'м α ℓїттł℮ мøяℯ тℌαη υşεℓℯşş« wrote: "You guys are harsh thorough. o_O I wouldn't really worry about all that stuff in a first draft *shrug* ..."
Link????
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Thanks. <33
dude, everyone thanks so much for the advice. Constructive criticism is something that I value way above anyone telling me that "it's amazing" and "don't change anything." i would rather have someone tell me that it's crap and tell me why then them tell me "that's great dear, don't change anything" in passing like it's not even worth their time. At least I know that they actually read it and stuff. *breath*
I don't even know if I'm going to continue that story, because the more that I think about the storyline, the more generic and boring it seems, so I don't think I'll be continuing that one. I just need to latch myself onto an original and good idea that I can actually get excited about, and then I'll start to write more seriously again.
Ethan wrote: "dude, everyone thanks so much for the advice. Constructive criticism is something that I value way above anyone telling me that "it's amazing" and "don't change anything." i would rather have someo..."That's what I think, too, Ethan. I'm happy you're cool with that! Especially since the last thing I ever want to do with a critique is to kill a project or to discourage someone from writing. :/
Yeah, I hear you. There are so many stories I've discontinued when they weren't working for me. But keep trying! Don't give up. I notice you post a lot of interesting photos on your Tumbly. Maybe you could try writing a story based around one of them? Sometimes having something your mind can grasp, like a photo or a song, can help trigger a story idea.
Ethan wrote: "I don't even know if I'm going to continue that story, because the more that I think about the storyline, the more generic and boring it seems, so I don't think I'll be continuing that one. I just ..."Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Ethan wrote: "dude, everyone thanks so much for the advice. Constructive criticism is something that I value way above anyone telling me that "it's amazing" and "don't change anything." i would rat..."
@ Eris No idea who you people are-- but I agree with that and I love your dp.
Is it brotherhood? <3
@ Eric-- why is it boring and generic?
Don't give up so easily on it.
You need to make it original and good-- those kind of ideas don't just fall from the sky.
Try mashing this idea you have with another, or literally take it into a different direction. Throw the unexpected at the characters!
Yup, my icon is from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood! That's the Northern Wall of Briggs herself, General Olivier Armstorng. :D I can't get over that anime. It's soooooooo...
Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Yup, my icon is from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood! That's the Northern Wall of Briggs herself, General Olivier Armstorng. :D I can't get over that anime. It's soooooooo..."
haha I LOVE IT!!!
And that gif is one of my favourite moments :3 hahahah
Mod
Jøℌαᾔηα »ℑ'м α ℓїттł℮ мøяℯ тℌαη υşεℓℯşş« wrote: "Hai, Emily:)"haiiii :D
Ethan wrote: "I don't even know if I'm going to continue that story, because the more that I think about the storyline, the more generic and boring it seems, so I don't think I'll be continuing that one. I just ..."I think the genericness of something can be argued. If you are telling a life story, and it's the story of someone's life but nothing super exciting happens to them, does that make it a bad book? No, there are tons of authors out there who write "generic" stories and people love them because of the normal in them, things they can really relate to.
So, my advice to you is:
-Write, don't worry about your audience until you have written lots of stuff. Writing is, and will always be, the hardest part. When you write, you learn. So I would finish this story out and then if I still didn't like it because it was too generic then I would just set it aside and used what I learned from writing it to write something new :)
-Your inner editor will most likely be your downfall on your first draft. I don't know if you have heard of Nanowrimo (if not go check it out here, pretty cool program: www.nanowrimo.org), but they tell you to lock your inner editor away during that first draft. Give him/her a vacation and then invite them back AFTER you have finished that first draft. Honestly, I do this for about an hour every single day and it is the only way I can get anything done and feel even remotely okay with it. Sure, it's not perfect, but it is something for me to work with and that's what counts.
-Lastly, some advice that I was once given and didn't really understand for a long time. Write what you know and then develop your style and your totally new ideas from there. That doesn't mean copy someone's ideas. It means to write using concepts you find interesting and know, even if they are a little on the cliché side. Then, once you know you can manipulate those ideas start totally from scratch and make something that is completely your own. I don't know if that sounds like much or not to you, but it helped me because as I would come up with ideas I would be like "oh, but that seems too much like so and so's plot line or main character or theme" and I wouldn't get anywhere. I stopped the criticizing and just wrote. It really really helped and making my own ideas that are coherent and unique is a whole lot easier.
*Oh, and write! Just don't give up :)
Eris Michael Vakarian wrote: "Tada! http://www.writersdigest.com/forum/"
*goes to investigate*
My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I think that I'll enjoy writing it, i just need to map it out and workshop it a bit, figure out what I want to do with it. I'll keep y'all posted.
Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I think that I'll enjoy writing it, i just need to map it out..."
It gives us something to talk about hahah
sounds good :)
Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I think that I'll enjoy writing it, i just need to map it out..."
Oops, you showed it to the writer who is all about giving feedback because she gets so little feedback herself and feels that all writer's feel deprived of good honest feedback and therefore tries to help the issue.
Irene wrote: "Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I think that I'll enjoy writing it, i just need..."
?????
Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I think that I'll enjoy writing i..."
Hm? I feel the need to give good honest feed back to any writer that hands me their writing because of the lack of feedback that writers get.
it's true that most writers get little to no feedback, so i'm used to getting none, which is why getting so much all of a sudden is weird to me.
Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I think that I'll e..."
Ooooh, you were speaking of yourself. I thought that but just wanted to double check.
I'm the same haha
Was from inkpop where 1k critiques were the norm haha
@Ethan
Are you on any writing sites?
Oh...Well, I am always open to reading writing even if it's not something I will enjoy I will still try to give you constructive feedback :)
Irene wrote: "Oh...Well, I am always open to reading writing even if it's not something I will enjoy I will still try to give you constructive feedback :)"That's good!
Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond of, and I thi..."
I usually ask for 750 words just because that is a smaller amount for writers to manage if they aren't really fond of sharing their writing and it's a good amount for me to get an idea of their style.
Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'm kind of fond..."
Sounds like you have a little thing going haha
Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Ethan wrote: "My goodness, I didn't think this would be such an item of focus. I dunno, I got another idea last night that I'..."
I actively participate in local writing groups around me, so yes, I do have my thing :) Unfortunately, I don't really get good feedback/or the feedback I am looking for (like not that it sounds good, but feedback that this character is weak; I don't want to hear that my grammar has issues, I know that and can fix it on my own but other things I can't).
i know. I can figure out the vast majority of grammar issues, and that's all fine and good, but stuff like plot holes, or character flaws, or bad dialogue, I might not see on my own. I am really only a member on figment.com, emily.
Ethan wrote: "i know. I can figure out the vast majority of grammar issues, and that's all fine and good, but stuff like plot holes, or character flaws, or bad dialogue, I might not see on my own. I am really ..."
Exactly! Things you are just too close to the writing to see :)
@IreneSounds like you need a beta reader.
Someone who goes through the whole story and gives constructional feedback on the big picture.
@ethan
figment yeah? That place is a bit of a ghost town I found. Cute but no real point :/ After inkpop, I'm focussed on wattpad though the overall standard of stories are interesting with the flood of fanfiction.
@Emily: Sometimes yes, but as I previous mentioned, my WIP is not ready for anyone to touch yet simply because it has so many issues that I need to fix.
Irene wrote: "@Emily: Sometimes yes, but as I previous mentioned, my WIP is not ready for anyone to touch yet simply because it has so many issues that I need to fix."Fair enough haha
Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "@Emily: Sometimes yes, but as I previous mentioned, my WIP is not ready for anyone to touch yet simply because it has so many issues that I need to fix."Fair enough haha"
I don't need you pointing out the mistakes I know are there, but you can't critique my plot line and just ignore the issues and give me good feedback so they have to be fixed!
Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "@Emily: Sometimes yes, but as I previous mentioned, my WIP is not ready for anyone to touch yet simply because it has so many issues that I need to fix."Fair enough ha..."
You'd be surprised. My manuscript was still quite a mess when my editor went through it and hacked it pieces.
1 draft: structure.
- plot holes
- character arcs
etc
2 draft: line by line editing. Nitty gritty shit.
Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "@Emily: Sometimes yes, but as I previous mentioned, my WIP is not ready for anyone to touch yet simply because it has so many issues that I need to fix."..."
Well, yes, but if I know they are there I don't need you to point them out. I need to fix them AND THEN you can tear them apart :)
Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "Emily wrote: "Irene wrote: "@Emily: Sometimes yes, but as I previous mentioned, my WIP is not ready for anyone to touch yet simply because it has so many issues that I n..."True that.
I really have trouble with getting a good story arc going, because I'm not good at planning. What do you guys do to plan?
@ethanday dream :)
Who are you characters?
What are their strengths and faults?
How can you expose their faults?
What do you see occurring if you left your characters to their own devices?
Now:
What is your story?
Your characters have their own worlds and a balance.
What breaks that balance?
Romance drama?
Sci-fi tradgy?
Maybe it could be something so simple as missing the bus which leads onto greater obstacles like a stone rolling down a hill and gathering moss or however the saying goes.
Now what do you want to happen from here?
What events do you want to happen?
Think about the arcs you want: character and story, and think about how they work together and push the story forward.
Finally what is you end game and how does that tie with everything else?
What needs to happen to get there?
that's a lot of the stuff I try to think about.
Truthfully I get an idea-- figure out a middle/end and little things that I want to happen then just go for it! haha
And if i get bored, I change it up and make the unexpected happen or track back and try a different path at the fork of the road.
It's really awesome you guys are concerned about getting/giving good constructive feedback! Maybe it's deadlines of whatever, but I have read books published by what are usually good publishers, but the books were so poorly edited that it could barely keep my attention. It's sad when that happens, especially if the story line was good.
Ethan wrote: "I really have trouble with getting a good story arc going, because I'm not good at planning. What do you guys do to plan?"Haha, I am probably the worst person to ask about this. I don't really plan. I jot down some ideas, do some serious brainstorming and then just start writing. As I write I get better ideas/brainstorm more.
I keep all these sheets, label them with the date, and they live in a folder that has my other physical writing documents in it.
Now, I do lay out time lines with various scenarios. When I get to that part, I will instinctively be able to pick the one that is the better choice, or when I get to a part that is key to the later on section I will know.
So, if you want an actual list go with Emily's post. If you want access to more writing resources for starting writers check out something called Nanowrimo (not sure if you have heard of it, you can find it here: www.nanowrimo.org). I am partaking in Camp Nanowrimo right now and am getting all sorts of neat tips on writing, not to mention lots of encouragement.
@ RebeccaI hate when that happens.
Harper Collins for an example is most likely the biggest publishing house in the world at the moment-- but the quality of their books (notably YA/NA) is plummeting.
@Irene
CAMP NANO!!!!!
I wanted to do it this month-- but i'm at 30k and had to switch to editing so I won't finish T.T
Mod
@joswitchfoot??? O.o
I'm listening to the Misfit (TV) soundtrack :D
Kids/Teens Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Nadine Brandes (other topics)L. Frank Baum (other topics)
As for the other stuff, I sometimes have a hard time telling the difference between the author's style and an error so I ALWAYS ask for a bit more than a paragraph.
Also, take all feedback with a grain of salt :)