Children's Books discussion
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Bad Language/Poor Grammar in Children's Books
I got into a discussion like this with a local librarian. She insisted that kids "needed" to read books that I didn't feel comfortable reading (books about abusive families, teen suicide, eating disorders, etc). So, I ignored her and went with what I felt was right for how I wanted to raise my kid. I don't think Junie B. will "harm" your daughter, because the two of you are talking about how she behaves and what you think is wrong about it. But, on the other hand, it is certainly okay to take a pass on a book if you don't like the language or the message of the book. We as adults filter our books choices all the time. Kids need adults to help them do this. As we all know, there are too many good books out there to spend time on a book you don't enjoy. :)
I have a "Great & Terrible Beauty" on my tbr list. Now I might move it off. Thanks for adding that review!
I have a "Great & Terrible Beauty" on my tbr list. Now I might move it off. Thanks for adding that review!
Yes, I slowly gave my daughter more freedom to choose her own books, based on her maturity level and not on what her peers were reading. She's reading books now that I had discouraged earlier, just as we've moved into PG-13 movies, because they are now age-appropriate. But she also rejects books on her own, especially books that are too "teen-speak" and/or "mean-girl" oriented.
"trauma porn" is a new phrase for me, but it is fitting. As I have gotten older, I am less able to read these kinds of books. I've gotten way too sensitive and empathetic for some of the images in these books.
"trauma porn" is a new phrase for me, but it is fitting. As I have gotten older, I am less able to read these kinds of books. I've gotten way too sensitive and empathetic for some of the images in these books.
I think it can be seen two ways, and I understand what you are saying with regards to the term "trauma porn" being disrespectful. I was thinking more in terms of reading about horrific or traumatic topics in the same way people gawk at traffic accidents or read true crime novels.
You, and the librarian, had the intention of helping us to discover the nature of human hardships outside of our realm of experience. I too have been fascinated with Holocaust stories, but more from the point of view that the human spirit can be so resilient in the face of such extreme horror and hardships. And, that strangers can be both extremely brave in order to aid others, or extremely cruel to those they don't consider human beings.
Where I disagreed with the librarian: I didn't think my 10 year old needed to read detailed accounts of child abuse, or cutting, or anorexia to become a sympathetic person. I believe that some kids read these books and laugh or even get "wrong" ideas about what's cool. That's what I filtered my daughter from.
You, and the librarian, had the intention of helping us to discover the nature of human hardships outside of our realm of experience. I too have been fascinated with Holocaust stories, but more from the point of view that the human spirit can be so resilient in the face of such extreme horror and hardships. And, that strangers can be both extremely brave in order to aid others, or extremely cruel to those they don't consider human beings.
Where I disagreed with the librarian: I didn't think my 10 year old needed to read detailed accounts of child abuse, or cutting, or anorexia to become a sympathetic person. I believe that some kids read these books and laugh or even get "wrong" ideas about what's cool. That's what I filtered my daughter from.
Great article. It sums up the angle I was coming from, too. A lot of YA and teen fiction is "dark" and kids are reading it for entertainment. I can't believe that all of these kids have that many problems! And, I like stories with happy endings, too! If I stop to think about all of the horror in the world, I would be petrified. For everything I do that is positive, there are so many things left undone. So, I read "happier" stuff for entertainment, or least stories where good prevails over evil. (I like YA fantasy for this.)
Abigail wrote: "Ah, and in the course of typing that epic post, I see the conversation has moved on! ;)
Don't you hate it when you type a really well-written response and find out you are three posts back!
I think the morbid streak is what Cabot refers to as "trauma porn." I'm such a softie that I don't like reading about other peoples' traumas in detail because the images will plague me long after the story is over. I can't even watch many action movies anymore, my blood pressure goes up and I get genuinely anxious (I'm getting goofy in my old age).
As for my kid, and kids in general, I think it is good to limit their exposure to topics they can't comprehend or make informed decisions about. This is very subjective, based on individual belief systems, life experiences, etc. So, most of what I've been talking about is personal to me. Of course, I tried to raise my daughter to be a good person, aware of the feelings and hardships of others. I, personally, have a very comfortable life and am thankful for it!
Don't you hate it when you type a really well-written response and find out you are three posts back!
I think the morbid streak is what Cabot refers to as "trauma porn." I'm such a softie that I don't like reading about other peoples' traumas in detail because the images will plague me long after the story is over. I can't even watch many action movies anymore, my blood pressure goes up and I get genuinely anxious (I'm getting goofy in my old age).
As for my kid, and kids in general, I think it is good to limit their exposure to topics they can't comprehend or make informed decisions about. This is very subjective, based on individual belief systems, life experiences, etc. So, most of what I've been talking about is personal to me. Of course, I tried to raise my daughter to be a good person, aware of the feelings and hardships of others. I, personally, have a very comfortable life and am thankful for it!
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However, what I do not agree with, especially in middle and high school, is parents who try to get books banned, simply because they do not agree with some of the material and messages being presented. I guess I can grudgingly accept that some parents might want a different assignment for their child if they do not believe that it is appropriate for him/her, but I do not think that parents should have any right to dictate what all children are reading, what is read in class or available in the library (although, my tolerance regarding this becomes less and less the older the child is, honestly, any teenager above the age of sixteen should be able to deal with most of the topics in literary works, they will have to once they get to college).
Oh, yes, I think my right to dictate what is read or isn't read only applies to what my kid reads. On the other hand, I don't think anybody, even the schools, should be able to insist a child read something the parent objects to. Even if you don't agree with the parent, the parent should have the last word in how their children are raised. But, that's the bigger issue surrounding this.
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I can certainly see that until about age sixteen or so, but older teenagers should be able to handle problematic situations and topics that are controversial (but that's my personal opinion). And what about college and university, should parents and special interest groups also have the right to complain about what is being read and assigned there? I knew a German professor who was forced to remove certain modern German literature classics fro his reading list because one student and her parents complained (this student was taking a third year literature course and was twenty years old).
I didn't like Junie B so we didn't read it but we (my son and I - he also didn't like Junie B but it may have been a gender thing) enjoyed Pippi Longstocking. Both have atrocious behaviour, both speak differently than I want my kids to speak but I like one over the other. There must be something more to it than bad behaviour and attitude. I am thinking that it is more in the writing (the framing, the sentence structure, the motivations/story, the word choices...)
Gundula wrote: "I can certainly see that until about age sixteen or so, but older teenagers should be able to handle..."
I hope that parents let their kids grow up and become thinking adults. My daughter at 15 picks her own books. Sometimes I will review a book and say "This has a lot of sex in it" (or violence, cruelty, whatever) and since I wouldn't read it as an adult, she chooses not to. (I just don't enjoy descriptive sex scenes, personally.) Once a "child" is in college, well, it isn't my business anymore, is it? If you don't like what's being taught, drop the class. I would never presume to tell a university professor their business. I'd choose my courses more wisely, if I felt things were offensive (which is again, subjective and personal).
I hope that parents let their kids grow up and become thinking adults. My daughter at 15 picks her own books. Sometimes I will review a book and say "This has a lot of sex in it" (or violence, cruelty, whatever) and since I wouldn't read it as an adult, she chooses not to. (I just don't enjoy descriptive sex scenes, personally.) Once a "child" is in college, well, it isn't my business anymore, is it? If you don't like what's being taught, drop the class. I would never presume to tell a university professor their business. I'd choose my courses more wisely, if I felt things were offensive (which is again, subjective and personal).
And my daughter won't watch the movie Coraline because it frightens her! She just doesn't enjoy freaky alternate world stories where parents turn into monsters. If a child is helped or comforted in some way by a book, then that's a good thing. If we read a scary book just for thrills, that's good, too! But, everyone's taste and situations are different, so it's good to have a parent or trusted adult to help kids navigate through the world of books. (sorry if that sounds corny!)
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That doesn't sound corny at all. As I posted before, my niece was really freaked out by the Harry Potter series and my sister now reads all of the books the family receives or purchases first because she obviously does not want her children being frightened by what they are reading (she has four children ages 2, 4, 8 and 10). I think this comes from experience, as my oldest niece had nightmares for weeks after starting to read the first Harry Potter novel, having an active imagination can be a problem sometimes because one can imagine all sorts of things.
Funny, my daughter has always loved mythology. She was big into Egyptology, too, when she was fairly young (5 or 6). But, from day one, I never let her believe in monsters, because I lived in fear of them for so many years! Now, she likes to watch Van Helsing and The Mummy with her dad!
The first thing she really had nightmares about was the sun eventually imploding. I had to reassure her that this isn't supposed to happen for millions of years! (again, she was 6 or 7).
The first thing she really had nightmares about was the sun eventually imploding. I had to reassure her that this isn't supposed to happen for millions of years! (again, she was 6 or 7).
Bun, Thanks, Yes! I was waiting 'til I could get to a computer to add a message here.I think cursing/bad language is in a class of its own only because it's so easy to automatically use language we hear. I remember when my friends were cursing a lot in middle school I started to do so "without my consent" and so if kids start using language not welcomed (I actually think cursing is a way to communicate when you don't have adequate vocabulary so I use it as an opportunity to increase their vocabulary).
However, with the tough subjects, I trust kids to choose. If scared or revolted by something they won't want to read it.
But, most of you are talking about lovingly parented kids who don't have major troubles, I think.
I'd have loved books that dealt what many kids' books deal with now: death, child abuse, sexual abuse, mental health issues, eating disorders, etc. etc. etc. I've worked with kids whose lives have literally been saved by these books.
If a parent physically or sexually abusing a child or neglecting a child, etc. has books that deal with these subjects on their banned for the child lists, that's to protect themselves, not the child.
I'm grateful all sorts of issues are now written about in children's books so that children dealing with (whatever) don't feel so alone, and can often get help, and so that other kids can develop empathy, and in some cases, learn how to help.
Still not a time when I can write a lot...
And, I do know lots of six year olds who love the Junie B. Jones books. I have not read them so cannot speak about them.But, I doubt I'd find harm.
I trust kids to know what's real and what isn't, and reading about bad behavior can be just as educational as reading about good behavior.
Honestly, I don't see the advantage of kids thinking all other kids/people/the world is exactly like them.
And, all books are a springboard for discussion.
But, I do have problems with violence, especially video/tv, especially with young kids. It's been shown that pre-school age children who watch violent movies and tv shows are more likely to hit, kick, bite, etc.
And, as Bun said, every kid is different. I think parenting, teaching mentoring, tutoring should not be only how the adult wants it but how the adult helps that individual child. Which means parents & teachers don't act the same and provide the same books to all the kids.
(I can't shut up. ;-))And, I think every single issue on earth can be addressed in an age appropriate way, which means in many cases going very lightly with some issues with young or sensitive or vulnerable children.
Yes, It's me again.I just wanted to say one more thing for now:
All the kids (mostly 6 & 7 year olds) I've known who are really, really into the Junie B. Jones books are nice, sweet, fun, well behaved, lovely kids. The books haven't seemed to warp them in any negative way. ;-)
Bun, Good point Bun. I loved the Pippi books when I was young. Not that I was a perfect kid AT ALL but she was just so outlandish and fun.
I have to chime in that I really like that there are so many great female protagonists in books for kids these days! I probably went out of my way to find some for my daughter, too! When I was a kid, the books about heroic, bold or daring girls were a bit more limited.
Wow, lots of posts. I like the Junie books. I am not crazy about the bad grammar--I think it was unnecessary for Barbara Park to write it like that and just kind of distracting to read. But the stories are funny and I think they end with a moral of sorts.
Chandra, I agree. I think it's adorable the way young kids talk. When she pronounces words perfectly and uses proper grammar, luckily, there will always be (other) cute things about her.
Lisa wrote: "Chandra, I agree. I think it's adorable the way young kids talk. When she pronounces words perfectly and uses proper grammar, luckily, there will always be (other) cute things about her."
Yes, the first time they drive the car is pretty cute! Mine gets her driver's license this fall. :)
Yes, the first time they drive the car is pretty cute! Mine gets her driver's license this fall. :)
Afterward your hair turns grey and you twitch sometimes..... lol Actually, she's a pretty good driver, but it will be enormous to give her the keys and wave from the door!
Chandra wrote: "Nooooo! That doesn't sound cute at all!!! Aaaaaaa!":-D Scary & cute. There will be other cute things that aren't also scary. I think teens are cute, but it's easier to feel that when you're not their parent, I think.
Yes, I'm just in the beginning stages of separation anxiety (she's a junior), so I get too nostalgic when you start discussing "young kid" things. :) Mine has been cute for 16 years now!
Chandra wrote: "Going to curl up in a ball and cry...."
It will be okay, Chandra! I read somewhere that we wouldn't want our children to still be in a crib and being spoon fed at 18, so we've got to let them grow up. It's been my mantra, of sorts!
It will be okay, Chandra! I read somewhere that we wouldn't want our children to still be in a crib and being spoon fed at 18, so we've got to let them grow up. It's been my mantra, of sorts!
Chandra wrote: "Is it horrible for me to admit that I slightly dread the day when my daughter uses proper grammar? I flipping love the way she talks now! She also can't say her -th's very well - says them as f's..."I agree that there will be more cute things. I have found tha tkids who have been read to will come out with extraordinary vocabulary and THAT is very cute.
For instance, my son at 5 or 6 said 3 sentences |(in different contexts) that stick out in my head:
"Grandma, my friends Claire and Gina are alot alike, they are both indefatigable". (It is very true, they are!).
To a nurse taking his blood. "Yes, I know what microbes are, they are infinitesimal".
And after I told a # of my friends about running my first 17 kms: "Dad, mom is showing a lot of hubris". LOL!
So don't worry, your darling will still entertain you, just keep notes because you don't want to ever foerget!
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I think my only "two cents" that hasn't been added yet (unless I missed it somehow) is that while I do think there is a lot of benefit to parents screening books for their children and trying to make sure stuff won't freak them out, especially at young ages, parents need to take care that they are basing it on the CHILD'S needs/views, not on what the parent feels. For example, I am one of those people who generally doesn't like to read/watch things on generally depressing and difficult subjects. As Abigail said of her friend, it's not that I don't CARE about the issues, but it's just a sensitivity thing for me and I get easily overloaded and overwhelmed by those sorts of things. However, as I look toward being a parent, I want to make sure that I am not limiting my children based on my own tastes. Maybe I'll have a kid who absolutely loves creepy books or tear-jerkers, who knows? There will be an appropriate time and place to "test the waters" with such things--I just hope I can provide them a wide spectrum of quality options without passing judgment or having them think, "Well, Mommy doesn't like scary books so I guess I shouldn't..." We'll see!!!
Chandra wrote: "P.S. Has anyone else's goodreads email notification been 'off' this week? I'm getting some email notifications, but not all and they're coming waaaay late."Chandra, There have been some complaints about NO emails over in the Goodreads Feedback group, and I've been getting some of my emails later than is typical.
Chandra wrote: "Well it's good to know I'm not the only one that it's happening to, but I hate thinking that I'm just leaving some comments unanswered!"I worry about that too!
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Yes! Same here :-(
well, sometimes I get the emails more than once! that should make up for it. :)
Great, Abigail, that pretty much sums up how I feel, too. :)
With Junie B. - All the concerns for behavior and grammar are great teachable moments for the kids. Take a moment in the book to point out the grammar. Allow your child to tell you the correct way to say it. For behavior, was that the best choice, what could she have done differently...This not only adresses her shorcomings but helps cement comprehension.
Isn't all this the point of the books, though? It has been some time since I read them, but I recall that her bad behavior seldom works out the way she hopes. Junie is a sloppy kid. Aren't the consequences demonstrated? Is her behavior respected and rewarded? When I listened to the lower grade teachers at my former elem. school use this book to teach, they used all of these instances, grammar and behavior, as teachable opportunities for language and character education. Sadly, the world is not limited to kind, well-spoken people. Our nice kids have to learn to deal with mean children and and the not-so-nice need to learn how that behavior is perceived by the people around them. They can think about what would the better choice have been in that situation. They can think about how to deal with people who treat them that way. Books give our kids an opportuntiy to think all these things through and develop skills for these situations without experiencing them first hand. How would the author have accomplished this with having only polite, well-spoken, perfectly behaved characters?That being said, if your child is uncomfortable with, or just doesn't enjoy a book, find them something they are excited about reading. There are so many great choices out there for our kids. If they don't like the book, move on. They should love what they read. Many kids adore these books. I think it is sad that other adults should make the choice of what reading material is available for those that do love them.
Abigail wrote: "Christine wrote: "Isn't all this the point of the books, though? It has been some time since I read them, but I recall that her bad behavior seldom works out the way she hopes. Junie is a sloppy ..."I agree. Books are never "one size fits all". I had to move my daughter away from Junie B. after she licked her shoes clean a la Junie B. I still cannot fathom how she thought it was a good idea when she read it. And yes, she became ill...
I still laugh about it. Isn't parenting a kick! Magic Tree House seemed a safer choice for her.
I think BunWat nailed it when she said that the language is a stylistic choice on the author's part to enhance characterization and humor (and voice, I might add). The same is true of the editor. Editors choose the projects they work on and they (generally) share the author's vision of the book or the series. There is absolutely no doubt that the language is deliberate, both on the author's part and the editor's part.I'm not a big Junie B. Jones fan, but I do think it's good writing for this age. The characters are well drawn. The pacing is good. The voice is strong. The problems are realistic. I think the weakness is that there's not really a meaningful theme, but then these early chapter book series sometimes don't have much of a theme.
Some people may not agree with the choice of language for this book. It will be a turn-off to some. Others will love it. That's okay. That's the way books are. It doesn't necessarily mean the writing is poor.
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Gundula, I love the way you used that book for ESL instruction. Brilliant!Another book that comes to mind is These Is My Words, which is not a children's book, but again the poor grammar is part of the voice. And yes, I think it would be very difficult to write in a voice like that without sounding phony.
Voice is the reason that the narrative of the Junie B. Jones books is written in that same style (as opposed to only Junie B's dialog). Because the POV is strictly Junie B's, we experience the story right along with her, including her observations, reactions and thoughts, all of which would be worded the same way she speaks. Nothing unusual about that.
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Another book that comes to mind is These Is My Words, which is not a children's book, but again the poor gr..."
And, successfully capturing the "voice" of a child, a particular child, in a children's novel, is the sign of a good author. You don't have to enjoy that "voice" you might even despise that "voice" but you should respect and appreciate the fact that the author(s) have been able to accomplish this.
Gundula wrote: You don't have to enjoy that "voice" you might even despise that "voice" but you should respect and appreciate the fact that the author(s) have been able to accomplish this. Well said. That's exactly how I feel.
There are plenty of books that I think are well written but the voice just doesn't work for me. An Abundance of Katherines (a YA book) comes to mind. I don't really like the language, the attitude, but I can respect the strong writing and I can see how it speaks to other people. So I can completely understand this reaction.
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Well s..."
I think "voice" is a huge thing in any kind of literature. For me, if the feel, or the voice does not feel authentic, if it feels contrived or artificial (unless, the author was actually trying for that, as in some forms of satire or parody), the reading experience is negatively affected. And, I can actually respect and acknowledge an authentic voice, even one that I might personally not agree with or have much in common with more than a voice that feels fake, insincere or unrealistic (for the book).
My own girls have loved Junie B. and they are both good girls. As a teacher in a high poverty area with many students whose native language is not English, I've always avoided reading Junie B. So many of my students do not hear proper grammar modeled and make the same types of errors that Junie B. makes that I've been nervous that this will just increase the likelihood that they will continue these errors. Maybe I'm wrong, but with my students I feel it is important for them to hear proper grammar modeled/read as much as possible because they aren't getting that modeling at home and in the community. Just one more thought about this topic...
Now, I'm not saying I forbid my students from reading Junie B. The books are in the school library, and if someone checks one out and enjoys it, I encourage them. But it's not a book I read aloud or use in reading groups or keep in my classroom library. I know other teachers that disagree and that's okay too.
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As a teacher in a high poverty area with many students whose native language is not English, I've always avoided reading Junie B...."
Jenny, have you ever thought of using the Junie B. Jones books as part of, let's say, a unit on proper grammar and spelling? You could use the books to demonstrate in a fun way how one should not spell, you could even get students to pick out the grammar mistakes and then have them come up with the correct spelling/grammar.
That's a good idea, Gundula. My concern is that many (probably most) of my students DON'T see the mistakes and can't hear that there are errors. With a different group of kids (maybe older or with different background experiences) I can see that being a very powerful lesson.
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That's why doing it together would maybe be a good idea, and not simply reading it aloud, but maybe pointing it out to them, or maybe having the correct and incorrect spellings etc. juxtaposed on a handout. I know that's more work than simply using the story for story time, but I think it's worth it. You don't even have to use the entire book as a whole, you could really focus on the problem areas one by one, taking as much time as needed. And, I would agree that simply reading the stories aloud might not be a good idea until the students have become sure of their own grammar and word usage.
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Jeannette, thank you for articulately defended your position about guiding your child's choices away from too much of the yucky stuff. I loved every one of your posts and feel a solidarity with your perspective (at least on this issue) that I don't with many of my friends.
My son is 14 and he reads stuff that's more intense than what I choose because he likes exciting adventure, but I can't see him ever being interested in the gratuitous-type 'trauma porn' YA novels.
I definitely agree with the person who said that there's more nice stuff in the world than ugly stuff like abuse & anorexia, and who implied that, while it's good for teens to be aware of the nasty, it's perfectly ok if their reading choices reflect a proportionate good/bad balance against real-life.
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I wanted her to read books that reflected what I felt was good behavior. It reinforces the values I was teaching her at home by giving her good role models.
My daughter just posted a review of a kid's book (she's 15 now) where she said how disappointed she was that the main characters got away with stealing something from the "bad" guy. She didn't think his being "bad" justified them getting away with a crime. Someone responded to her review that maybe she was too old for kids' books and that the book was fun! This sums up how we both feel about "bad" kids in books for children. Hope this response makes some kind of sense! :)