Why was (insert book here) banned/challenged?

[Old-Barbarossa]

Just sneak them onto the shelves anyway.

[Manybooks, Minister of Forbidden Literature]

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Just sneak them onto the shelves anyway."

Maybe, but I feel that if I did that, they would just weed them out and sell them (as long as they don't throw them out).

[Joseph]

Gundula wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Just sneak them onto the shelves anyway."

Maybe, but I feel that if I did that, they would just weed them out and sell them (as long as they don't throw them out)."

Just a suggestion, but you might be able to get your library to add a particular book to a collection if instead you donate the money to purchase it to them on the condition it is used for that book. Really very few donated books get added to the shelves, often due to their condition, libraries often prefer to add new books not used ones.

[Anthony]

You're right, we all do not want to be or sound like "My Fair Lady" (in my opinion, Henry Higgins was and is an idiot).
The film was unfair to portray him as a linguistic snob. In the original play he values all English dialects: he teaches Eliza to "talk posh" precisely to prove that speaking like a fine lady has nothing to do with intelligence or quality, it's just another dialect that anyone can learn.

[Anthony]

The Golden Compass was banned in Toronto-area Catholic schools because the author is an atheist.

I would guess it's a little more than that. If I were a devout Catholic, I'd have problems with a series where Jehovah is a senile old tyrant who finally dies of extreme age, and Heaven is being run by an Evil Grand Vizier who's finished off (cast into the Pit, no less) by a child-killer and a seductress (both of whom, it's hinted, have some demonic powers).

But as a Pagan I have to learn some tolerance of hostile fiction, or I'd get ulcers over the number of fantasy works where the Horned God is automatically and necessarily the Big Bad. (Particularly annoying in "The Black Cauldron," where the author at least tries to give the impression that it's based on Celtic mythology.) Guys, that's a Christian archetype, do the research!

[Joseph]

Anthony wrote: "But as a Pagan I have to learn some tolerance of hostile fiction, or I'd get ulcers over the number of fantasy works where the Horned God is automatically and necessarily the Big Bad. (Particularly annoying in "The Black Cauldron," where the author at least tries to give the impression that it's based on Celtic mythology.) Guys, that's a Christian archetype, do the research!
..."

Anthony, I'm Pagan also and the Chronicles of Prydain is one of my favorite fantasy series from childhood. If you'll forgive me for saying so, I think you might be reading a bit too much into things here. The evil character in "The Black Cauldron" was the Horned KING, not Horned God. Much of the stories are based on Welsh mythology, true, but a horned king or war leader is common to many of these ancient tales. As Alexander says himself in
The Prydain Companion: A Reference Guide to Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles "The Horned King figures in many mythologies, there is even a Late Paleolithic sketch of him (not a very good likeness) on a cave wall." I cannot know for sure, of course, but I feel that Alexander cared too much for Welsh mythology to rewrite something in his stories that would give a bad image to any Wlesh deities, such as Cernunnos, for example.

[Shay]

Joseph wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Just sneak them onto the shelves anyway."

Maybe, but I feel that if I did that, they would just weed them out and sell them (as long as they don't throw th..."

Good suggestion Joseph. I'm pretty sure that my library uses some computer ordering system that combines ordering and cataloging. Also, having different ISBN's results in multiple records. I know because when they order recent copies, and the ISBN is different due to a new version, you'll see 3 or 4 records of the same title, some records with only 2 copies. I'm sure that if you could try and get a bunch of people together to donate a semi-significant amount of money, they would definitely take it.

[Randi]

Xox wrote: "ferinheight 451 was challenged by stupid christians.

See this clip. Another proof that christianity is evil, and many of its followers are morons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUq2d2..."

Well, I myself am a Christian but I will say there are some morons in my faith. But I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE Harry Potter. I'm even in a wizard rock band!
Sometimes I get made fun of for it, but it's worth it for good books.

[Randi]

How does Winnie the Pooh encourage Nazism?

[[deleted user]]

What I really enjoy about Winnie-the-Pooh is that euphemisms can be found for all my problems (pretty much).
So if I'm in the mood for an oxymoron:
-'pigs' can indicate 'anyone we may think is lesser than us' or who 'really screwed up world history'. You make your own choice, really.
-'tiger' - annoyingly bouncy cheerful person [when nobody else has energy].
-'donkey' - someone who will keep complaining regardless of what happens.

If I need my own category, how about 'I don't want to grow up'? ;) A.A. Milne wrote well-loved fantasy. Here's hoping most libraries still have his books!

[Dee]

there is, if anyone is interesting, a book called The Tao of Pooh which takes the chinese philospophy and applies it to Winnie the Pooh...rather an interesting read...there is also the The Te of Piglet but i haven't read it yet

[Polkweed]

Anthony wrote: "But as a Pagan I have to learn some tolerance of hostile fiction, or I'd get ulcers over the number of fantasy works where the Horned God is automatically and necessarily the Big Bad. (Particularly annoying in "The Black Cauldron," where the author at least tries to give the impression that it's based on Celtic mythology.) Guys, that's a Christian archetype, do the research!
"

The Prydian Chronicles are Arthurian; the rise of Christianity over the local pagan traditions is just part of the story.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Anthony wrote: "But as a Pagan I have to learn some tolerance of hostile fiction, or I'd get ulcers over the number of fantasy works where the Horned God is automatically and necessarily the Big Bad. (Particularly annoying in "The Black Cauldron," where the author at least tries to give the impression that it's based on Celtic mythology.) Guys, that's a Christian archetype, do the research..."

Aye, but the demonisation of the "other" is always there. The carnage that (pagan) Romans carried out on Anglesy, the brutality of the (pagan) British in London and Colechester. "Pagan" covers a broad church and as with all religions there are (and have been) extremists. Also, in the past the ideas of good and evil tended to be more tribal than ethical and the ancient pagans of Britain weren't too similar to the "sidhe huggers" that popular fiction has a tendency to portray them as. Modern paganism and druidry are as differnet from the ancient versions as modern presbytarianism is from 1st cent. christianity .
Anyway, my point is that I can see that the negative portrayal of the god of the enemy is easily done. Whether atheist portrayal of any god or christian portrayal of Auld Horny.
Therefore if someone reads that portrayal of their god then they could just as easily be offended...but the banning of the book, a different matter entirely.

[Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading]

Great discussion people!

Rosy, I'm sorry your question hasn't been answered yet and I've been lazy about catching up on posts.

In Missouri, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian was banned, "because the content did not reflect 'community values.'"
You can read more about it including an amazing letter written by the NCAC here:

http://www.ncac.org/Sherman-Alexie-No...

The book has been challenged and banned in multiple places because of "descriptions of masturbation, sexual language and foul jokes, along with themes encompassing racism, alcoholism and violence" according to http://www.news-leader.com/article/20.... We read the book here a couple of months ago so check out the three different threads about it in the >a href="http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_... Banned Books Book Group topic.

Guitar-chick, Winnie-the-Pooh apparently was used by the Nazis in one of their propaganda videos:

http://www.guitarsolos.com/videos-win...

So it has become illegal in Russia to show an image of Winnie the Pooh with a swastika. Despite popular belief, they did not ban Winnie the Pooh itself, although other countries have.

[Sandysconnected]

I'm still laughing that Winnie-the-Pooh was banned, and why. I know I shouldn't judge, but...

[Shay]

If you have a map, you can mark the area of Canton, North Carolina: "Here, There Be Morons"

http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchk...

I hear "Dueling Banjos"....

[jb]

Shay wrote: "If you have a map, you can mark the area of Canton, North Carolina: "Here, There Be Morons"

http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchk...

I hear "Dueling Banjos"...."

All I can say is Wow.....really?

[Manybooks, Minister of Forbidden Literature]

jennbunny wrote: "Shay wrote: "If you have a map, you can mark the area of Canton, North Carolina: "Here, There Be Morons"

http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchk...

I hear "Dueling Banjos"...."
..."

Wow!! However, this is so outrageous, I wonder if it is in fact meant to be a satire. At least, I hope it is, because otherwise, we are in big and major trouble.

[Sandysconnected]

Holy moly! I would like to suggest that this is a satire too, but I'm not sure! There actually ARE people this...uh...passionate in the world, using the internet as a tool.

[Manybooks, Minister of Forbidden Literature]

Sandysconnected wrote: "Holy moly! I would like to suggest that this is a satire too, but I'm not sure! There actually ARE people this...uh...passionate in the world, using the internet as a tool."

I know there are some real nutcases out there, I just feel better hoping and praying that it is satire.

[Shay]

Gundula wrote: "Sandysconnected wrote: "Holy moly! I would like to suggest that this is a satire too, but I'm not sure! There actually ARE people this...uh...passionate in the world, using the internet as a tool."..."

I wish it was satire:
http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in-...

http://www.associatedcontent.com/arti...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newst...

A quote from the above article: "The book-burning is hoped to be a social event, with a barbecue laid on for attendees. It is not clear whether the meat will be grilled over the heat of burning Gospels. "

[Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading]

HA HA HA! These people are hilarious!:

"We are burning Satan's bibles like the NIV, RSV, NLT, HCSB, CEV, NCV, NIRV, TNIV, NKJV, TLB, NASB, ESV, NEV, NRSV, ASV, NWT (Jehovah Witness Bible), Amplified Bible, God's Word Translation, 21st Century King James, Young's Literal Translation, Reina-Valera 1960, Darby, Good News for Modern Man, The Evidence Bible, Book of Mormons, The Message Bible, The Green Bible, Quran (Koran), Bible in Rhyme, Boomer Bible, and ect. As well as Greek New Testaments by Westcott & Hort, Metzger, Scrivener, Berry, Ginsburg, and Green. Also Herbrew-English Dictionaries by Brown, Driver, and Briggs. Also Greek-English Lexicons by Moulton, Thayer, Danker, and Liddell.

Listed above are only some of the perversions of God's Word the King James Bible.

We will also be burning Satan's music such as ... southern gospel , contemporary Christian ...

We will also be burning Satan's popular books written by heretics like ... Billy Graham , Rick Warren ...Pat Roberson... James Dobson ... Tim Lahaye... The Pope "

So right wing Christianity isn't enough, you have to be *their brand* of right wing Christianity? And I think it's hilarious they are going by an English translation of the bible and translations of that book into other languages but are not okay with any scholarly or literary translation. That bible was not the first into English and was influenced by King James to conform to what he wanted. (Wikipedia has some more info if you're interested.) I highly doubt this church follows all the doctrines of the Anglican church. That version used Hebrew translations of the original Aramaic to translate into English.

This level of ignorance must be painful. I feel so sorry for these people that their world is so small and so full of hate.

Well this is interesting, they also say this:

"This is only a partial list of cults and false teachings. We are not saying that these are bad people or that we hate them, we do not. We love them in Christ and hope to win them to the Lord Jesus Christ. These organizations do a lot of good to help people, and we don't deny that. We do deny that they are leading people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. We respect these people and they certainly have a right to their belief and religion. At the same time we have a right as the "children of God" to warn others against false teachers and false prophets.

Anglican Church
Bible Society
Christian Science
Episcopal Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Federal Council of Churches/National Council of Churches
Islam
Jehovah Witness
Masons
Methodist
Methodist Episcopal Church
Mormonisn
Presbyterians
Roman Catholic Church (The Great Whore)
Seventh-Day Adventism
Spiritualism
Unitarian Universalism Association
United Church of Christ
Vineyard Church
World Council of Churches

I feel honored that my small church is listed there (UUA). I had no idea we were a cult. They say they don't hate me, unlike that evil guy who pickets soldiers' funerals. But they're full of crap because they talk about hate all over the site, including Coleridge because he was a Unitarian.

This is lovely: "My wife made her own decision to stop wearing pants without me having to beat her in the head about it."

The website is fascinating. The whole thing is devoted to telling you who and what is wrong without focusing on what is good. My only regret for reading it is that they'll count the page hits as a positive.

[Jordan]

Hello! I just joined this group and I wanted to ask you all what you think of Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. I read on Wikipedia (I know, I know) that
" French officials banned it for being "obscene," as did the United Kingdom, Argentina, New Zealand (uncensored 1964) and South Africa.[53]"

I find it strange that they banned it for being obscene...I would have thought they'd ban it because it appears to promote pedophilia.

What do you think?

[Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading]

I think "obscene" includes pedophilia. I think the book is excellent. We read the book as one of our group reads. You can see our discussion here:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

[Smartestmoronever]

Shay wrote: "If you have a map, you can mark the area of Canton, North Carolina: "Here, There Be Morons"

http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchk...

I hear "Dueling Banjos"...."

Hi. i'm new to the group and a very avid reader. I'm doing a persuasive essay on should banning books be allowed. While researching my topic, I found this discussion board. I looked at this site and am absolutely disgusted that any church would do this type of thing, let alone doing it anually. I myself am Catholic, and me and my friends are obsessed over Harry Potter. This type of thing is wrong and just peoples way of keeping people from using their imaginations.

[jb]

It is quite disturbing any religion would think any type of book burning would be a positive thing. Books are meant to make people think and grow and learn (even if you do not agree with the content).

To all the newbies...welcome!

[Ruby]

I made a couple of attemps to list my book in the Banned Books group but there were just too many books to be considered and I did not make it.
In view of the current events in the Middle East the need to change the spontaneous movements, where too many innocent lives will be lost, to a full-scale revolution has never been so strong. This will need planning, organizing and executing the plan and it all starts with raising awareness.
Those of you who have read my translation of Little Black Fish will recognize that it is a guide to action showing a path to freedom, equality and justice. If you know any progressive Libyans, Egyptians, Bahrainis, Yemenis, Tunisians, Africans and others who want to make a difference and if you are in touch with those freedom-fighters, please spread the word. The Little Black Fish

[Katrina]

My two absolute favorite reasons why a book was banned or challenged are:

The Dictionary (in its various incantations) has been banned/removed or just remotely challenge for including such definitions as "oral sex", "fuck" "vagina" -along with a picture of the reproductive system- and the like. So um, should we just completely ignore those words, pretend they don't exist. I can understand them maybe being slightly more advanced some...but then again, I read "The Feminine Mystique" in 8th Grade for a book report.

And my TOP FAVORITE is My Teacher Is an Alien because ::dramatic pause:: the main character (who is like 8, it has been FOREVER since I read it) solves a problem on her own without asking for help from an adult....I kid you not. I am not making this up. I read that in the books that the ALA association releases every year with all banned/challenge books of the year before when I wrote a speech about book banning in college.

Now, Banned Book Week is my FAVORITE week...I prep for it months in advance with special book covers for "banned" books I read, to badges I wear etc

[Manybooks, Minister of Forbidden Literature]

Katrina wrote: "My two absolute favorite reasons why a book was banned or challenged are:

The Dictionary (in its various incantations) has been banned/removed or just remotely challenge for including such definit..."

The dictionary always gets me. Sure, keep your children ignorant. And if some of these artificially sheltered children (teenagers) then get pregnant due to their enforced ignorance, will these so-called parents still insist that the baby is brought by the stork??

I cannot believe that a "person" would challenge a book because it shows a child thinking for himself/herself. Some adults really fancy themselves, really think that they are somehow God and the only instance of moral or critical thought. Quite sickening!!

[Elizabeth]

I don't get why "James and the Giant Peach" or "Winnie-the-Pooh" or "The Diary of a Young Girl, Anne Frank" is banned. Its crazy, thoughts are some of my favorite books. It makes me sad that they are banned or challenged.

[Kim]

Lindor16 wrote: "On the other hand I would not present it to my younger child knowing that she would not understand the material."

Touche. This is where the educator or the parent comes in. They can decide if it's necessary to broaden the child's perception of the material. If it happens to be out of the child's range or offensive in any aspect, the parent can take the book away, keep calm, and carry on.

This is coming from someone who is completely mellow.

[Kim]

Smartestmoronever: That's going to be fun paper to write, assuming you haven't yet submitted it. When I think of people trying to ban books for things like the use of profanity, drugs, or sex- it shows me that these individuals are naive as to what the story is or what message is being conveyed. Often times the people who support banning books haven't even read the books they are trying to ban. Subsequently, they would't take the time to read something that contains- what they perceive to be- offensive material. If there was any way these people could be enlightened as to what the author's purpose of writing the story is, there may be a ray of hope that their perception of the content would be broadened to the point of consideration, if not appreciation.

[drew]

http://www.banned-books.com/bblista-i...

Banned books. And also, 'The Glass Castle'. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/8289...

[Sally]

I find it incredibly ironic that, just before the ALA's banned book week, a new form of censorship is appearing.

I really thought we, the people that love freedom of speech, thought and the ability to read were winning.

The new thing is for Christian groups to find new works E-books mainly, but this includes kindle which is huge, and try to attack the publishers before a book is released, stopping the work from seeing the light of day at all.

In the last few days I've caught, and spoken about online, the attempted suppression of a young adult novel called "Keeley Thomson:Demon Girl" by K.L. Byron.

The book, which come out in mid-October of 2011, (You can get an advanced copy of from the publisher, which is how the whole thing started no doubt. Just e-mail the publisher from their web-site Orange Cat Publishing and they'll send you one for review.) is just the story of a sixteen year old girl that finds out she's a demon.

That would probably be enough, but the groups speaking against it feel (Ehm... with some reason...) that the book denigrates Christians and shows them in a bad light. It does, but it's a book, not a way of life.

My real point here is that if the publishers are threatened with boycotts and loss of advertising or sales due to pressure, they won't bring out an authors works at all. The modern "school library" book ban is nothing compared to making a small work just vanish from the face of the Earth.

*Also, banned book week! So this discussion is valid (always is, but...) and we should speak out in defense of books, if we haven't been.

Thanks.

[Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading]

That is disturbing but not at all surprising. As technology changes, people will figure out how to use it for their own ends. However, this company sounds great and the book sounds interesting. To-read list, here I come!

[P.]

I hope someone here can help me... does anyone know when/ if Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas was banned??

I'm pretty sure it has been, but can't find any information on the web about dates/ reasons. Any help is appreciated!

[Lisa]

Kelly wrote: "Xox,

This is a forum where everyone should feel safe to express their opinions without harassment. Freedom of speech is one thing. Insulting people is another. Blatant generalizations of groups of..."
Dr. King had a coke & whore habit, so that makes him a hypocrite. JFK was an adulterer, so that just makes him a man, LOL.

[Lisa]

Xox wrote: "The top changelled book in 2008 was And Tango Makes Three by Justin Richardson, Peter Parnell. The American Library Association reports that And Tango Makes Three was the most challenged book of 20..."

And that book was done after a full YEAR of research on the social/reproductive habits of the species of penguin, & those penguins were absolutely NOY gay, it's a fact that male penguins share incubation/chick rearing duties while the mother is off hunting. Banning that on the basis of homosexuality shows just how uneducated the banner actually was. Sheesh, you can SEE that on various things like March of the Penguins, Animal Planet, Nat Geo, etc. There are TONS of documentaries about penguins, so banning that one totally baffles me. Obviously they don't WANT to be educated?

[Lisa]

Monday wrote: "Part of my understanding about the banning of Charlotte's Web was that it discusses death - and parents wanted that to be discussed at home and not in the school. i've also heard that it encourage..."

I grew up on a farm. I also had a pet pig, her name was Shelly. My Dad & my uncle made off putting jokes to me that it was short for "top shelf of the freezer". One day I came home from school, & lo & behold, no Shelly. I cried for a week, & flat out refused to eat ANY pork the entire winter. To this day, & I'll be 45 in the spring, I have to just about force myself to eat pork, but I'm definitely NOT a vegetarian, so I'm not understanding why it promotes a vegetarian lifestyle. Oh, & PETA? They are a bunch of radical, insane extremists who are allied with domestic terrorists like Greenpeace, ALF, ELF, & their ULTIMATE goal is to outlaw ANY sort of animal ownership, same with HSUS.

[Lisa]

Wow, the article on the church who bans/burns annually is hysterically funny & sadly pathetic all at the same time. The Great Whore? Catholicism? Snickers. I'm a Pagan, & my personal path is tolerance of all others, heck, my 13 year old son goes to this thing on Friday mornings before school with a couple of his buddies, it's a religious thing called FCA, some sort of youth group, but hey, I encourage him to go IF HE WANTS to because it promotes POSITIVE things like healthy eating(balanced diets), & participation in sports as an alternative to other undesirable activities. My sons participate in community charity events, my 13 year old did the Tiger Run last year to benefit the local food pantry, & my 11 year old son did the soccer tournament to benefit the local battered women's shelter.

They like the Wimpy Kid books, the Percy Jackson books, etc. I am just appreciative of the fact that they READ books as well as play video games, so I'm not about to fuss over WHAT they read. I actually like the Percy Jackson books because they are a great link & introduction to classical mythology, & if they are intrigued enough BY the mythos as presented in this series, maybe that will encourage them to actually read more of the classic mythology tales when they are older, & to me, that's GOOD.

[Janny]

Kyle wrote: "I'm shocked that To Kill a Mockingbirdhas been banned, or edited, in some schools. I'm against censorship of this sort. What are they trying to prove? Is it a gesture of Political Corre..."

No books should be banned. You wrote that you've read the book in school. If some books are censored, how do you know that it was the orginal copy?

[[deleted user]]

On a lighter note: attacking jokes on the internet aren’t as much fun as burning them – everybody loves a good bonfire.
Jokes aside – in my last year of high school we did two books that were banned by the previous regime (Apartheid regime), Animal Farm and a simplified version of The Iliad. Ok. Fine. The Iliad made sense since we were dealing with mythical deities that could conceivably “corrupt and damn young Christian minds”. Animal Farm made less sense, since it was and anti-Communist fable, and the former regime was also anti- Communist. Turns out that the puritan government of the time didn’t take well to the idea of talking animal overthrowing their master – “alluded to witchcraft” was the official statement.
And another thing – you sort of realize that your principle is two cucumbers short of a salad bar when he orders that the chapters dealing with Reproduction and Evolution be removed from the Biology textbooks…

[[deleted user]]

Our elders pretty much told us there was a communist and an anti-christ behind each bush and undervery rock.... Bright side: they spent so much time searching for unsavory elements they didn't even notice us reading all the "evil" books. As funny as it was then, it's absolutely side-splitting now. I'm just happy I started to read after we became a democracy.

[Katy]

I just joined this group. Not a fan of banning/burning books, however offensive they might be.

I saw the shocking list of banned books, and I realize it's a few years old, but I saw Where the Sidewalk Ends on it, and that really surprised me. One of my all time favorite books. I loved it as a kid, and an adult. Anyone know why this one got banned?

If this has already been discussed, please forgive me. I couldn't find it.

[Shomeret]

Katy, there's a Banned Books Week post about it on a librarian's blog.

Here's the URL: http://librarianslifeinbooks.blogspot...

[Katy]

Thank you!

[Julie]

I remember in 9th grade reading The Odyssey. A lot of times, instead of using 'gods' to refer to the Greek pantheon, the word 'God' was substituted, implying the Judeo-Christian god. My English teacher told us that when it was being translated by monks in the Middle Ages, they did their best to get rid of the pagan influence and make it Christianized. (Granted, that's hard to do when half the characters are pagan gods, but they tried their best.)

[Rachel]

Katy wrote: "I just joined this group. Not a fan of banning/burning books, however offensive they might be.

I saw the shocking list of banned books, and I realize it's a few years old, but I saw [book:Where th..."


I believe Where The Sidewalk Ends has been banned for the content of some of the poems. The one that gets the most mention is about a kid breaking dishes to avoid washing them. It supposedly promotes bad behavior for kids.

I always say that Farenheit 451 is banned by people who love irony, anyone know the real reason? I don't think this was ever stated.

[Shomeret]

Here's a wiki answers page on reasons why Fahrenheit 451 has been banned: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_Fahr...

[Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading]

I apologize for those that saw that user's post before I deleted it for profane personal attacks, ironically against a user who was blocked over a year ago for the same thing. While I do not condone censorship, we do not allow hate speech and personal attacks in this group. The same ideas and feelings can be expressed in appropriate, nonhurtful ways.

If you have any questions about this, please read our Group Guidelines under the General heading on our group's main page. Commenting there is best so everyone can weigh in but please feel free to contact me privately if you feel more comfortable doing so.

Thank you.