Banned Books discussion
Why was (insert book here) banned/challenged?
Gundula wrote: "Ronyell wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Actually, the Laytonville California School District did ban The Lorax in 1989 because it supposedly criminalises the foresting industry.Also, [book:Bl..."
That's right! I mean, I understand if you banned a book that teaches people how to make bombs, but most of these reasons are silly and people face the issues in these books everyday. So, I don't really see the harm in letting people read about controversial issues like sexuality or language as long as the they understand the issues.
message 53:
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Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading
(last edited Apr 25, 2010 09:07AM)
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Whoa Nelly! ;)
The ALA says that the original version of the Diary of Anne Frank has only been challenged in the past 20 years, not banned, although I don't know if it was before that. (Amazon apparently lists it as one of the most banned kids' books.) However, the definitive edition, which was the full edition of the diary (the original cut 30%) was disallowed from one curriculum because of a passage where she refers to her vagina:
http://www2.starexponent.com/cse/news...
Now I want to read that edition. I can't believe 30% was edited out!
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message 55:
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Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading
(last edited Apr 25, 2010 09:50AM)
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I know it's just conjecture, but I was really looking forward to reading it. And, true, sometimes people just don't or won't bother with due dates.
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It's the only one in the whole system and the Hamilton Public Library really discourages Inter-Library-Loans for some reason. I might try again, though.
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Kelly wrote: "I wanted to let everyone know that Xox has been formally removed from the group. He posted additional inflammatory rhetoric that did not contribute to the discussion and included hateful comments a..."Thanks...it was very hurtful stuff with out anything to do with the banned books really:)
Charlotte's Web has been ranked 13 on the most banned and/or challenged classics list. Thirteenth place out of 100! It's probably because the book inspires children to become vegetarians. This is very threatening to the meat industry. When I taught sixth grade to ESL students, we read Charlotte's Web and the kids loved it. As an anecdote to the fantasy elements (animals talking, etc.) we visited the PETA website to get a more realistic view of pork production.
Right after that, I became a vegetarian, and with some admitted lapses, I am still a vegetarian to this day. So this book poses a real threat I think to the meat industry. It is so easy to love this book and children are so idealistic. They try to live out ideas that inspire them. I hope I can keep that childlike part of myself alive.
I think it's dumb that they banned "Charlotte's Web" because that book is truly one of the greatest classics to ever come into the world of children's books and there were many books about vegetarism that were not banned.
I don't know about banning it because it encourages vegitarianism, but I do know that one of the main complaints with Charlotte's Web has always been that it features talking animals, which are unnatural. (Seriously, how many books out there feature talking animals... There's a lot of them...!) Either way, I would agree that it's kind of a silly book to ban.
Part of my understanding about the banning of Charlotte's Web was that it discusses death - and parents wanted that to be discussed at home and not in the school. i've also heard that it encourages inter-species (or extrapolated for us inter-racial) affection. As well as if you live in a farming community, you might not want a book that encourages your children to have attachments to animals that will some day be food? (The third one is just my own thoughts, the other two i've heard as reasons for banning.)
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Hi, Ronyell. I am very impressed by your comments on banning books. With so much awareness at such a young age, I am sure you are going to make a difference. I also like your website, simple and interesting.
Ruby wrote: "Hi, Ronyell. I am very impressed by your comments on banning books. With so much awareness at such a young age, I am sure you are going to make a difference. I also like your website, simple and in..."Thank you!!
Gundula wrote: "Jennie wrote: "Xox wrote: "ferinheight 451 was challenged by stupid christians. See this clip. Another proof that christianity is evil, and many of its followers are morons.
http://www.youtube...."
I am a Christian and I do believe God made the world and everything in it. My favorite book is A Clockwork Orange.
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Pattee, I just had another encounter with this at our local library recently. We have a discussion going on same-sex relationships in children's and young adult literature in the Children's Literature Group, and when I tried to sign out a bunch of books on the subject, quite a few were missing (mostly from one particular branch as well, which is even more suspicious). And, the librarians did not really think this was a problem, well, at least they did not think it was a problem that precisely these books were missing.
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I know, I actually was not trying to be so negative (it was just a bit frustrating not being able to find the books); I'm sure librarians often have to do a balancing act. And, airing personal views could likely be problematic and cause trouble for them as well. I mean, I generally respect other peoples' opinions, even if I don't agree with them, but others might make it difficult for librarians to do their job, or might even file official complaints.
Gundula, it is sad to me that your library system discourages inter-library loans. Our system actually encourages them. We also encourage patron suggestions on books to be added to the system. We do charge a fee for ILL's but it's only a dollar, unless it's microfilm.I work for a library and I do share my opinion about books when asked. The ones that I did not enjoy, I mention that I did not like it but I usually add that someone else that I know enjoyed it.
Why have the Junie B. Jones books been challenged? I haven't read them but they are really popular with beginning readers.
message 72:
by
Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading
(last edited Sep 20, 2010 01:41AM)
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Okay...so people have a problem with it because it's realistic? I know people that acted that way growing up and they didn't have to face consequences until high school.
I always thought it had more to do with the poor grammar and language that Junie uses. For some reason, poor grammar seems to be way worse than the typical portrayal of the ups and downs of being a kid.
I saw that The Lovely Bones has started showing up on the list...my thought behind it is the religious aspects (her watching from heaven) as well as the violent description of her murder - what is your guys opinion?
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I haven't read it so I don't know.
Amy wrote: "I always thought it had more to do with the poor grammar and language that Junie uses. For some reason, poor grammar seems to be way worse than the typical portrayal of the ups and downs of being a..."I have recently removed Junie B. Jones from the English section of our library.
Personally I find Junie irritating and her behaviour appalling but the reason I removed the books was the standard of English. Most of our library patrons use the books to learn English and I felt the grammar, syntax, spelling and use of vocabulary were just not acceptable.
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I probably would not like these books, but I certainly do not agree with you removing the books from the library. That is censorship and book banning and is simply wrong, in my opinion (also, it goes against the spirit of this group). And, these books could easily be used as a teaching tool (I have used books like this to teach error recognition to ESL students, with good results).
Anyway, what gives you the right to dictate what other people are able or permitted to read? You obviously have the right to not enjoy certain books, you might even have the right to dictate to your children what they are allowed to read. But, I do not think that in a supposedly democratic society, you should have the right to determine what other people are allowed to read. I am not saying that these books are great, but in my opinion, you have really overstepped the boundaries here. The books should at least be available, even if you do not like them or agree with them. You should think about putting them back, or at least making them available to those who ask for them.
Esther wrote: "Amy wrote: "I always thought it had more to do with the poor grammar and language that Junie uses. For some reason, poor grammar seems to be way worse than the typical portrayal of the ups and down..."Removed due to poor grammar? Who sets the standard for grammar? Are we talking rp style Queen's English as the bar? Have Shakespeare, Burns and Joyce been removed too? Steinbeck? Faulkner?
And what about Twain?Many native dialects from my neck of the woods, Scots, Doric etc, have been sneered at by the Anglo-centric educational establishment for generations due to perceived poor grammar/spelling etc. To do so is to ignore the way people actually communicate in the real world.
We don't all want to be like Eliza Doolittle.
Blinkered...feathers are being spat.
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Many native dialects from my neck of the woods, Scots, Doric etc, have been sneered at by the Anglo-centric educational establishment for generations due to perceived poor ..."
One of my favourite series, the "Emily of New Moon" series by Canadian author Lucy Maud Montgomery has some deliberate appalling spelling in the first novel of the trilogy (mostly in Emily's letters and stories). The author was trying to show how Emily loves to write, but how she was not yet adept at spelling (thankfully, she was able to continue writing, even when unenlightened teachers etc. read her poems in class and mocked her mistakes, other children might just have stopped using their imagination). Is this trilogy going to be removed from libraries now as well, due to bad grammar and spelling? And, what about "Misty of Chincoteague" and its sequels, by Marguerite Henry? Are those books going to be removed from library shelves as well because Grandpa and to a certain extent Grandma Beebe are portrayed as speaking very broad dialects. I hope not, that would be beyond frightening. You're right, we all do not want to be or sound like "My Fair Lady" (in my opinion, Henry Higgins was and is an idiot).
Has Pygmalion been banned? I wonder...I know there was a bit of an outcry when it was first staged.I know the myth it's based on is fairly sordid. I kind of hope it has...I'd love the irony.
Kelly wrote: "M, it may be realistic but it isn't something a parent trying to be a good parent wants their child to read. I certainly hope that you don't think that it's okay for children to not learn about con..."Most of the kids that I have noticed reading it are in about the 3rd or 4th grade. The younger ones actually are reading with their parents for the most part. I do understand your feelings about them.
I don't think it's okay for people to not have to face consequences. I know that I had to face them when I screwed up as a kid, and now that I'm "an adult" I still have to face them when I screw up. And I find it easier to handle the consequences since I haven't been shielded from them.
I thought it was a great book (although the movie adaptation not so much) - its also fairly recentKelly wrote: "Delicious Dee the book slut wrote: "I saw that The Lovely Bones has started showing up on the list...my thought behind it is the religious aspects (her watching from heaven) as well as t..."
Gundula wrote: "Esther wrote: "Amy wrote: "I always thought it had more to do with the poor grammar and language that Junie uses. For some reason, poor grammar seems to be way worse than the typical portrayal of t..."My reply would to ask what your reaction would be if I gave young children inquiring about reproductive education a book claiming that babies appear in the cabbage patch or are delivered by the stork?
These books are not used for recreational reading. Most of the books are chosen on my recommendation . The requirement of the teachers and parents is that I recommend book of a suitable standard (language) that will help them improve their English.
If they can't undestand the text (a frequent occurence with Junie B) it helps no one. The teacher and I are frequently the only English speakers the student will encounter so if they can't read it unaided they can't read it at all.
The teachers have their own material for teaching errors but that aspect of ESL is not required of our library. My remit is to encourage English reading by making it accessible.
As to to Faulkner, Shakespeare etc. They are freely available in the general fiction section but if they are chosen by someone who doesn't speak English of nearly mother-tongue standard I always point out that there is a simplified version.
Fair enough not recommending a book due to it being unsuitable for the purpose someone wants to borrow it for, but removing it is another thing altogether. Why not just move them to a different section?And anyway, what is mother tongue standard?
I know that if you put a Londoner and an Orkadian together, both speaking "English" as a mother tongue, they would in large part have problems with comprehension due to issues of accent, never mind dialect.
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Folks, librarians have to remove books all the time because there simply isn't room. If Esther removed the books from the library solely based on her personal opinion, then I agree it's wrong. If she moved them to a different section, I think that is appropriate because English is difficult enough to learn without having the poor grammar and twisted wordage of books like Junie B. Jones. If she had a limited amount of space for ESL books in a library where young children are not reading (such as a high school or college library) and that is the primary reason why she removed the books, then I can understand. Let's get more information first.
Esther, can you clarify?
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Esther, did you remove them from the library or just from the section specifically devoted to ESL users? I took your post to mean the latter. What kind of library is it? I think if it's a high school library that has to choose what it has room for on its shelves, it is appropriate to have more suitable fiction for the level of student.
Folks, librarians have to remove books all the time because there simply isn't room. They also are the ones who make the decisions on what books to buy. This will always be at least a little bit affected by personal bias. If you have a limited amount of funds and have a choice between buying Mein Kampf for a middle school library or the Harry Potter books, which are you going to buy? The ones that the kids are going to read is the primary reason but the fact that the latter is abhorrent is going to help make the difference between perhaps two non-fiction books on Nazi Germany.
If Esther removed the books from the library solely based on her personal opinion, then I agree it's wrong. But she gave some very specific reasons why the expectation of the students and teachers is that she will provide them with books that will help their English. PlIf she moved them to a different section, I think that is appropriate because English is difficult enough to learn without having the poor grammar and twisted wordage of books like Junie B. Jones. If she had a limited amount of space for ESL books in a library where young children are not reading (such as a high school or college library). Let's get more information first.
If it's a book in another country where they don't speak English at all, I question why the books were even bought. Esther said clearly she did not remove them because she didn't like them, she removed them because they did not serve the purpose of that section of the library. I used to work at a computing library. If I had found Catcher in the Rye there, I would have recommended removable because it's not appropriate for that library. As part of a huge university library system, there were ample copies available to students elsewhere. It's not banning a book, it's saying it's not in keeping with the theme of the library and there are so many other books that are. There is a huge difference between banning and making appropriate decisions for a specialized library.
As for what gives her the right, it sounds like the school did: they gave her the directive to put books in the English section specifically that will help the students learn proper English. It sounds like they also have a general literature section as well. What ages are reading these books?
Esther, can you clarify?
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I actually assumed that she removed them from the library. If she only removed them from the ESL section, I can certainly understand that, because these books could cause a new language learner to learn bad and inappropriate English. And, I think that I mentioned in my responses that I have no problem with her moving the books to a different section, but that I would have a problem if the books were completely removed from the library. And, I would agree with Esther that the Junie B. Jones books are not good reading material for ESL learners, especially if they are using these books in order to learn English and are reading them on their own. I have used books with deliberate spelling and grammar mistakes to teach advanced ESL learners how to reconise errors and how not to write, but the whole time, I was in control of the lesson, they were not simply reading the books on their own. I just would not agree with the books being permanently removed from the entire library system, but if they were put into a different section (or even in storage due to lack of space), I would certainly have no problems with that.
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The Junie B. Jones series and other novels that feature deliberate misspellings and/or grammar mistakes certainly should not be in a section of the library devoted to ESL books, both textbooks and literature in a section like that should feature appropriate grammar and language usage. I just don't want the series removed from the entire library system, but perhaps placed in a section that is more appropriate.
On the importance of "poor" grammar: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11..."It is not a lazy use of language, that is a common fallacy among non-linguists," he says. "We all use fillers because we can't keep up highly-monitored, highly-grammatical language all the time. We all have to pause and think.
"We have always used words to plug gaps or make sentences run smoothly. They probably did in Anglo Saxon times, it's nothing new."
In honor of Banned Books week, Courting the Classics program manager, Charmaine, reviews Farenheit 451. Share your thoughts on censorship and enter to win an autographed first edition copy of A Pleasure to Burn by Ray Radbury.
Kelly wrote: "Esther, I apologize for everyone jumping on you. People, some of the attacks are a little personal without having all the information, so please keep it less directly aimed and more about your opin..."I should have been more clear in that I live in a non-English speaking country and our library is not for English speakers.
I have a very small section of the library for the English section.
Although there are several adults who speak English as a mother tongue or well enough to enjoy reading in English there are no children in the town that speak English as a mother-tongue. This means that all English children's books are viewed as an educational tool.
I suspect that if English was not taught in schools the English section would not have any children's books at all. Although about 10% of the children here do speak Russian mother-tongue there are no children's books in the Russian section.
The source of most of my books is donations, many of which are unsuitable due to condition or reading level. (Adult fiction is judged only on condition)Some books are of a standard that could be read by 10th graders but which 16 year old wants to read books written for 6 year olds? There are better options available.
Mainly it is a question of collection management. We have limited shelf space and I need to provide books people can and want to read.
The present directive from our library inspector is maintenance of collection - 1 book in = 1 book out - and any book that hasn't been borrowed in 5 years should be removed from the collection.
We have pruned 10% of the library collection in the last 18 months so I just can't afford shelf space for a book I know nobody will read.
More specifically although teenagers turn up their noses at Shakespeare and the idiomatic fairytale language and syntax of Ladybird's Favourite Tales' have left people begging me for assistance, the only books I have received complaints about were the Junie B books.
Every single time it was borrowed people, who are perfectly capable of reading books at that reading level, described it as 'indecipherable' and 'incomprehensible'. One person even asked if I was sure it was in English!
Like all removals it was put on our 'Please Take Home' shelf and after a few weeks given to a local 2nd hand book exchange.
I would love to be PC and uncritical, keeping every single book in the hope that someday someone will want to read it. However that is not practical. I have to make judgement calls not based on content or personal likes but on the requirements of the library patrons.
Patronage of the English section has increased from non-existent to being an integral part of the local education system in the 5 years I have been in charge so I seem to be meeting those requirements.
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I came across this yesterday. Australian anarchist J. A. Andrews published a pamphlet in 1894 called "A Handbook of Anarchy." He was arrested for selling the pamphlet without legal imprint.
Kelly wrote: "Post questions here about why a book was banned or challenged. Anyone can post answers."I a am currently reading The absolutely true diary of a part time indian, do you know why it was banned in Missouri?
People have mentioned silent censoring. Has anyone tried to counter that by replacing missing or defaced texts? I donated a slang dictionary to my high school library senior year after finding out some over enthusiastic soul had taken a sharpie to the four in collection.
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I tried that with our library, but they will not accept donations, even of missing books. Frustrating.
Banned Books
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Actually, ALL reasons why books get banned are silly. I am not saying that all books are good books and that there are not some dangerous books around that I don't want to read and that I don't want others to read etc., but banning books, censoring books is dictatorial and smacks of Nazism.