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A Game of Thrones
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02/10 A Game of Thrones - Let's get it going....(spoilers)
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Now that's a great question to get us started.Tyrion is one of my favorites not just in this book, but the series. Is he good or bad? Well. Yes. Both. Neither. He is simply Tyrion.
Vague answer, but he's a complicated character. He's human, and one that is dealing with the cards that life handed him. He wasn't the "chosen one" of the light, nor seduced by the "dark one" and twisted to evil. In fact, nobody seems to really want him at all.
So he is left to make do as he can. Luckily, Tyrion is very intelligent, so he is able to carve an existence out for himself. He recognizes his shortcomings (pun intended) but works with them.
Tyrion does have some measure of honor. He's loyal to the few that have earned it in his life and he has a sense of fair play. He's also enough of a Lannister to have a deliciously devious mind. He can manipulate people, not how Cersei does it with beauty, but by playing his own "ugliness" into his hand and turning the fact that he's always underestimated against those he's working on.
So does this answer the question? Maybe not. I think that deep down, he's a decent guy. But being that he is a product of a rough world and a state of constant unacceptance from his own family, he has to live in a harsh reality that makes being the "good guy" a luxury he can't always afford to take.
Hands down, I thought Tyrion the most fascinating character in this book. Without him, it would not carry nearly the impact.The good/bad question - I didn't believe he's either. The book's harsh setbacks left me with the sense that this very clever character stands back and cynically plays everything to his own advantage. He's loyal to those who are so to him, to keep them on his side. He moves his plays to the circumstance, and always tries to come out on top. His failures are made intensely frustrating, and his constant striving for an acceptance he'll never get underscores his deviousness, in using any means whatsoever to win next time.
The best twist Martin gave this character is that he manipulates the reader too, and always keeps one guessing.
I think also the fascination also arises from the person he might have been, in a different world, in a different body, exposed to a different set of values.
I am in agreement with everything posted above. By far my favorite character in the book (and the later books).
Tyrion is great. If nothing else, his character has opened my eyes to different motivations of people. Even though their motivation may be different from my own, does that make it wrong? or just different? I did think it was a bit presumtive of Catelyn to take him captive when she only had the most circumstantial evidence. I think I would have reacted similarly to Tyrion. He had no idea why Catelyn was so mad at him and throwing around all those accusations. I really liked what he did for Bran - that is telling him how he could still ride just with the special training of the horse and the special saddle.
Tyrion is my favorite character. No, he's neither good nor bad, and I don't think he's evil either. He had his moments of kindness and I think he has respect for his family.
Amelia - I like that you bring up the way Catelyn treated him. On one hand, I understand that she's an angry protective mother and truly believes that Tyrion hurt the boy.But on the other hand, it was so easy and convenient to believe Tyrion did it. 1. He was a Lannister, who she disliked. 2. He was a dwarf. So of course it would be easy for her to jump in and accuse him.
She was a great example of prejudice, and not in the form we all think of with racism. No, rather she had pre-judged Tyrion. Literal meaning of the word. Because he was a Lannister, "ugly", "deformed", and probably that he was a smartass too, she had him pegged as a villain before anyone looked into what happened. This is a human failing. I think in some ways she learned from these mistakes, but certainly not entirely, as I don't think she ever believed him innocent.
Cersei is plainly hedonistic. She only sees value in others that will help herself, including her own children. Tyrion is incredibly complex, and while I think most characters fit into a mold of relatively good or relatively evil, I would say Tyrion's makeup is the entire spectrum. He is capable of evil, and he is capable of good, and his judgements of who deserves what has somewhat of a logic behind it.
First let me start by saying that Tyrion is my favorite character in this one and the next (which is as far as I've gotten in the series so far and can't wait to get into the next one). It's difficult to say whether he's "good" or "bad". I believe he's neither and both, depending on the decisions he makes in any given circumstance.Chris and Amelia, you guys brought up the situation where Catelyn captured him. Don't forget that she had looked into who had tried to kill her son. She took the dagger to Kings Landing and Littlefinger told her that it was Tyrion's, and I will admit, at the time I believed him too. It wasn't until he mentioned that he never bets against family in the tournaments that I actually thought that he might actually be innocent. I'm not going to lie, I actually celebrated a little when she took him in the tavern lol.
Building on Amelia's comment about Catelyn, after reading this book a couple of times now I have a different reaction to her taking Tyrion "hostage" than I did during the first read when I cheered the "arrest". Now I think that her pride and honor just helped get her husband killed, along with Sansa's naivety. I also think that Eddard's own pride added to his demise and that of his children. If he had just taking Renly's offer he would be alive and well and in "control" of the situation rather than Cersei! But he wasn't able to see past his pride to see the real dangers lurking. He was blind in so many ways, even after days in the dungeon he was till clinging to his pride until it was pointed out to him by Varys how he was hurting his children. I think that this is another underwriting theme of this book pride/honor vs. survival. The Starks have their pride and honor while in many cases Tyrion does things to just survive.
Julie wrote: "...I think that this is another underwriting theme of this book pride/honor vs. survival. The Starks have their pride and honor while in many cases Tyrion does things to just survive."So agree with you.
I think that of all the adult characters, Tyrion may be the most "aware" individual. He is very intelligent and at the same time can face the "hard truths". Most of the other characters are blinded by one thing or another.
Chris wrote: "First let me start by saying that Tyrion is my favorite character in this one and the next (which is as far as I've gotten in the series so far and can't wait to get into the next one). It's diffic..."What's up with Littlefinger? That's one character who seems to be a complete mystery to me. (I've only read the first two books, anything after those are still unknown). Littlefinger seems to help people and then does the whole flip flop and just goes with whatever he deems his most advantagous.
Funny thing is, I never thought Tyrion was guilty, even after Catelyn was told that the knife belonged to him. Maybe I didn't make the connection of how loyal Tyrion would be to his brother and sister if he knew what Bran had seen. I thought that Tyrion really wouldn't know what happened to Bran, and had no reason to do anything to him.
BTW, Bran is becoming one of my favorite characters.
Mawgojzeta wrote: "I think that of all the adult characters, Tyrion may be the most "aware" individual."I completely agree with you there. I think this may be the case because he doesn't have the luxury of of being blind to what is driving other people, and it definately helps that he's a cunning little devil (no pun intended).
However when talking about the Starks I think there was more than just pride and honor that brought down Eddard Stark. Sansa is naive in a very general sense, but Ned was naive of the machinations of court. He was too trusting of people and no used to the intrigue that surrounds the inner workings of the Seven Kingdoms, which in the end led to him being betrayed and later killed. Tyrion never had that problem as he's had to beware members of his own family; i.e. Cersi and his father.
Amelia wrote: What's up with Littlefinger?
Just based on what I've read from the past two books I have a feeling Littlefinger is more involved that we can see on the surface through the other characters, and the thing that leads me most to that conclusion is the dagger. I don't want to get too into detail for those that haven't made it through A Clash of Kings so I'll leave it at that. And Bran is fast becoming another of my favorite characters as well.
And Chris, *I* won't say too much about Littlefinger from the perspective of having read all four that have been published! Let's just say that Martin did a good job of downplaying him in the early going of the series while setting him up for a much bigger role later on. Ned Stark is a good man. I think if any of us had to live in a feudal society, we'd want Ned Stark as our Lord over most of the other people we've seen. If he'd been born king, he'd probably have been great. If he'd been made king after the rebellion, I at least give him better odds than he had as the Hand of the King (because the Lannisters wouldn't have been entrenched yet). What it comes down to is that Ned is a great man... in the system. You could count on him to rule his domain fairly, pay his taxes, send troops up to the wall or to defend the kingdom... but he and Robert have helped break the system. With the "rightful" king deposed (however much he may have deserved it), all bets are off as everyone jockeys for position.
Ned's not suited for that environment. Tyrion, on the other hand, is. He's been raised basically amoral, like the rest of the Lannisters, but he basically has a good heart (perhaps *because* he's a misfit? He's developed more empathy?). At the same time, he's brilliant. Brilliant, unconstrained by conventional morality, but with basically a good heart? Well-positioned to thrive in a world gone mad while still being sympathetic to the reader!
As we watch the younger generations, the Stark kids, Daenerys, etc, what we're seeing is the way each of them does or doesn't adapt to the new reality. How do they find a compromise between what they've been taught and a new world? Rob is like Ned Jr. Good luck Rob. The others, well, we'll just have to watch and see how they do, won't we?
Is this multiple choice now?*Question:
Is he (Tyrion)
a)good
b)evil
c)just a bad person
Answer:
d) none of the above.
Tyrion is, to me, the most interesting character in the book. He's almost impossible to pin down. His own brother says near the beginning something like "I sometimes wonder which side you're actually on." That's the first clue that there are actually sides being taken, and of Tyrion's ambiguous character. He is a Lannister by birth, and his family influence makes him the conflicted character he is. For Example:
He hates his father Tywin, but he's compelled to seek his approval (and subconsciously, forgiveness). His brother and sister have that approval, while Tyrion never will.
He loves his brother Jaime, but he's jealous of him as well. Jaime is tall, strong, powerful, handsome, charming. All the things Tyrion can never be.
He hates and loves and lusts after his sister Cersei. They have more in common than either would admit. They are intelligent, cunning, ruthless, and determined. However, she is also beautiful, fertile, comely, and a willing lover. These are the things he desires in his women but will never have, not without paying for it. Also, she gives all of herself to their brother (her love, her body, her respect, her talents and influence), while giving him only her contempt.
Tyrion wants more than anything to be accepted and loved by his family, but those doors are closed to him. So hate festers where love should be. So he is conflicted, as much as any great literary character.
Martin writes all of his characters in shades of grey. They are at best empathetic, sometimes sympathetic, and at worst they are caricatures used only to progress the plot. Even then we often learn more about them later. Not one POV character is evil. Not one is good. They are all just people. People that do good in the name of greed or selfish advancement. People doing evil because they believe it is in the best interest of all. Everything in between. But no white knights. No dark lords. Just people. People as confused, as conflicted, and as frail as all of us.
A Note On The Imagery or "Winter is Coming":
At first I thought it was a cheap ploy to begin the story in the far north, with winter coming on. Martin doesn't explain why the seasons are so long and it felt like an easy out to make things feel stark. Stark? Hey! That's the name of the main characters!
But then i found I didn't care about WHY the seasons are so long. I began to realize that I NEVER saw a sunny day in my head, which fell into place perfectly with the "shades of grey" tonality. What felt contrived at first wound up being a great device.
I think the imagery is a perfect fit.
*Sorry about the sarcastic tone Julie! I think you're doing a great job as moderator, and I love your questions! They're really getting to the heart of the book, not just random trivia or opinion polls!
"Sorry about the sarcastic tone Julie!"Matt, no worries!! Thanks for posting and putting other ideas out there. Never thought about the Stark name like that. A lot of Ed's personality and The North can be described as Stark.
But I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit, I'm not sure I find ANY redeeming qualities about Cersei. She may not be "mad" like the previous Kings but she sure seems pretty evil to me. It's about power sure, but there are things that she does outside of that motivation that are actually detrimental to it. Like sleeping with her brother and having him father her children, leading to her and Jaime letting Bran "fall". But then again in the time period that is probably one of the only ways a women can gain power, by using her womanly wiles. Another way is to inherit the throne after her husband passes away, and oh yeah, Cersei makes sure that happens as well.
I think it's a bit of an oversimplification to say that, because there are many shades of gray, there are no whites or blacks to be seen (okay, I hate how that sounds, but you know what I mean). Just because we can occasionally find reasons to sympathize with her, she's pretty much an awful person. And as much as we might become exasperated at how guileless (and therefore how unsuccessful!) Ned is, he really is a very good man. And in this context, I'm fascinated by the shaping power of family mottoes. The Starks' "Winter is Coming" is what reminds them that the good times won't last, that they need to be prepared for harder times, that discipline--especially self-discipline--is essential. Compare that to Robert who enjoys the summer days and his own prosperity so much that he goes from a great warrior to a fat drunk who's taken no real thought for the future, either in terms of his rule over the kingdom or in terms of how his children should be raised.
Matt wrote: "Is this multiple choice now?*Question:
Is he (Tyrion)
a)good
b)evil
c)just a bad person
Answer:
d) none of the above.
Tyrion is, to me, the most interesting character in the book. He's almost ..."
Shades of gray - there was an artbook published on this series - (forward by Martin himself) - and for the most part, the palette was pretty grim - black, blue, red/shades of grey. Not much sunshine to be seen.
It includes portraits and scenes from the book.
The Art of George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
Would love to see that art book. My library does not have it, though. What a bummer!
** SPOILER ALERT **I am disappointed that people are not talking about Sendor or Jaime.
Tyrion is simple compared to Sendor. Tyrion helps people when he is not inconvenienced by it. He can feel pity, and he also likes to have payback for any insults or injury. He also wants approval from his father(though that has ended now). He is generous to his followers and holds up his deal for them. he is a somewhat cynical version of Ned, and would probably be the best king than any other major character in the book(excepting perhaps Littlefinger and Daenerys and the Dornish prince).
Sandor on the other hand is much more harder to read. He hates the aristocrats, but follows them. He hates his brother and reputedly wants to kill him, though no attempt was ever made to do so by him.(when once the Mountain goes crazy in a tourney, he does not attempt any killing blows.) Throughout the series, he does some supposedly evil and kind things( killing arya's friend, trying to return Arya to her family, rescuing Sansa). These actions can be considered in several ways. One might argue that he was saving the boy trouble from tortures he could face, or it may be possible that he was just enjoying bloodlust.
Jaime too has become interesting since he lost his hand.
Apoorv wrote: "** SPOILER ALERT **I am disappointed that people are not talking about Sendor or Jaime.
Tyrion is simple compared to Sendor. Tyrion helps people when he is not inconvenienced by it. He can feel pi..."
Sandor was brought up in the "Favorite Characters/Favorite Villians" thread. You are correct, he is complicated character.
What I really love about these books it that no character is all good or all evil. Ned seems good but he has his major flaws which prevent him from doing the things it takes to protect his family. Cersei seems evil, but what she does, although in twisted ways, is to benefit her children and the name Lannister, which isn't evil, just selfish. Her character mimics a lot of real life people that do crazy things to help their child get ahead. So many fantasy books focus solely on a true evil incarnate coming to destroy everyone's way of life. These books seem more like a study in human nature. I agree that Tyrion is a "shades of gray character", but I purpose that all the characters are, not just him.
Ripley : I agree that Tyrion is a "shades of gray character", but I purpose that all the characters are, not just him. Yes, you are right that all the characters are like that, but (usually) their motives are easy to figure out, unlike Tyrion's. He shows great decency in some parts, and cynicism someplace else and a thirst for revenge someplace else. He plays to people's expectations and sometimes breaks them. He is cynical about people, but he expects praises for the good things he does for them. All in all, he is hard to predict.
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Assistant to the Villain (other topics)The Art of George R.R. Martin's a Song of Ice and Fire (other topics)
Moving into discussion points.....Taking on the shades of gray concept I guess the character that best exemplifies this is Tyrion. Is he good, Is he evil or just a bad person? He definitely surprises me with some of his help in certain situations and then he is downright "bad" in some other cases. But I wonder if he would be like that if he wasn't trying to "fit in" to the Lannister mold because he has always been different.