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Which typos and quirks are unforgivable?
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LuAnn
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Dec 23, 2009 01:41PM
Thank you, Lisa! As a former editor of several publications (and still writing, by the way), it's very important that an editor know grammar rules. It's part of the job and any good company isn't going to hire an editor without those skills.
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Arch, seriously. I don't mean this in a contentious way, but you can't "stand tall" on an opinion that is incorrect. Further, any publisher who hires editors who are deficient in this area is not a serious publisher.
Lisa wrote: "Arch, seriously. I don't mean this in a contentious way, but you can't "stand tall" on an opinion that is incorrect. Further, any publisher who hires editors who are deficient in this area is not a..."Lisa, I can stand tall on my opinion. Editors aren't grammar expert.
I have a question that I would love for you to honestly answer me. This question can be answered by anyone else as well.
Question: What makes an editor a grammar expert?
You've said this Lisa.
As for writers, we certainly need to be good at grammar; otherwise we are not likely to be great writers. I'm not an expert, and I defer to my editor when I'm not clear on what the proper syntax or comma usage is. But I'd better have the basics down. It's very hard to be taken seriously as a writer if you don't.
Okay, you boldly stated that you aren't a grammar expert and you go to your editor in regards to the proper syntax or comma usage.
Well, why not go to a grammar book? This question is not to offend you.
Editors make mistakes as well.
How does a author know that what an editor has done to his or her work is right?
Every writer should own a grammar book and refer to your grammar book for help.
I have witness readers be hard on authors, because of errors in their books. Something that's not even the author's fault, because the proofreaders and editors are getting paid to find the errors.
I am a writer and I'm not afraid to boldly state that I am not a grammar expert. I know some grammar, but not all grammar. Grammar goes beyond what we have been taught in school.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that an editor take a book, sentence by sentence to make sure that they are lining up to grammar rules. If I am wrong, then please someone correct me.
Lisa wrote: "Arch, seriously. I don't mean this in a contentious way, but you can't "stand tall" on an opinion that is incorrect. Further, any publisher who hires editors who are deficient in this area is not a serious publisher." You're right, of course, but you may as well cut bait on this one. Arch knows more about the matter than all of us, including those of us who have been editors for a living. ::shrug::
Arch, different houses have different "style books" they follow, and not all of them agree. Things like comma usage and Em dashes and spaces after periods can vary depending on where you publish. I did my absolute best to get my book as perfect as I could, but when you are the writer, you inevitably miss things. And though as a writer, I need to be good at grammar, I will defer to the editor who is working on my book. Professionals let other professionals do their jobs, and that is what you seem to be missing here.
What do you do when you disagree with your editor? You discuss, like adults. I had a wonderful editor and a great experience working with her, in part because we treated each other like professionals working toward the same goal -- putting out the best book we could.
Your "opinion" is just plain wrong, and you won't be taken seriously by people who actually DO have experience in this world if you persist in it.
Sharon wrote: "You're right, of course, but you may as well cut bait on this one. Arch knows more about the matter than all of us, including those of us who have been editors for a living. ::shrug::"
Sharon,
Tell me what makes you a grammar expert?
I'm going to be honest. I want to read some of your work, to see if there are any errors in them.
Do you write? Do you have any stories posted online?
Good lord. Okay, I give up. Arch, I recommend that you spend some time on agent/editor blogs and educate yourself about the publishing process. Nathan Bransford's blog is a great place to start. He also talks about writing and has just opened forums so that posters can continue their discussions.
Lisa wrote: "Arch, different houses have different "style books" they follow, and not all of them agree. Things like comma usage and Em dashes and spaces after periods can vary depending on where you publish. ..."
Lisa, don't caps words to me. Please don't forget that.
No matter what you say or anyone else, I stand tall on my opinion. Period!
As for being taken seriously by people. I am not looking to be taken seriously by people. I'm real. If a person doesn't like that - that's their problem.
Lisa wrote: "Good lord. Okay, I give up. Arch, I recommend that you spend some time on agent/editor blogs and educate yourself about the publishing process. Nathan Bransford's blog is a great place to start. He..."No thanks to your recommendation.
Oh, Suzanne Brockmann is a big known author.
One of Suzanne's book, Harvard's Education had errors in it. Errors that the editors didn't even pick up. Some of her fans help get her book right. She even list their names in her book.
I am not even an editor, but I am sure that I can even sit down and help an author out in finding errors in his or her books.
Arch wrote: "Sharon,Tell me what makes you a grammar expert?
I'm going to be honest. I want to read some of your work, to see if there are any errors in them.
Do you write? Do you have any stories posted online?
"
All right, the gloves are officially coming off.
Not only do I write, dear, I have published three books and been a newspaper editor-in-chief. I already said that I found two errors were in my paperback when it came out, after four proofreaders and two editors went over the MS. It irked me no end that those errors were there -- and it is absolutely the editor's responsibility.
I didn't know that I would have to provide my CV to some twit on the internet, so I guess you'll have to settle for this: I graduated with honors from journalism school. I wrote for a living for a good deal of my adult life. I do know what I am talking about.
If you want to read my book, kindly visit my UK publisher, http://www.turnermaxwellbooks.com , (space added before comma so that URL will work) and buy a copy. Enjoy.
Lisa wrote: "Good lord. Okay, I give up. Arch, I recommend that you spend some time on agent/editor blogs and educate yourself about the publishing process. "Pearls before swine, Lisa ... pearls before swine. :-(
Sharon wrote: "Not only do I write, dear, I have published three books and been a newspaper editor-in-chief. I already said that I found two errors were in my paperback when it came out, after four proofreaders and two editors went over the MS. It irked me no end that those errors were there -- and it is absolutely the editor's responsibility.I didn't know that I would have to provide my CV to some twit on the internet, so I guess you'll have to settle for this: I graduated with honors from journalism school. I wrote for a living for a good deal of my adult life. I do know what I am talking about.
If you want to read my book, kindly visit my UK publisher, http://www.turnermaxwellbooks.com, and buy a copy. Enjoy.
"
Sharon, education doesn't make a person smart.
Second, the only twit that you see, is the one you look at everyday in the mirror.
I will never waste my money on your book.
I see that you have never answered my question and you will not answer my question.
Arch wrote: "I see that you have never answered my question and you will not answer my question."
No, sweetie-pie. I answered your question; you just didn't like the response you got.
I suggest you grow accustomed to such disappointment.
Never mind. Oh, wait, I have to.
Arch, Nathan Bransford receives the most submissions of any active agent (according to Query Tracker, so that information is likely not complete, but it should give you an idea of how well-regarded this guy is). He's extremely generous with his time and knowledge and is a fabulous resource for anyone interested in publishing. Anyone who is the least bit familiar with the current publishing landscape knows who he is.
So, you know, your lack of interest/knowledge here tells me something.
Just for fun, here are the three examinations that applicants for positions with a freelance editorial firm must take: http://editfast.com/english/editors_t... All of them have to do with grammar and punctuation. Who knew? Oddly enough, it seems that this editorial firm is not interested in hiring people unless they know something about the matter. Isn't that weird? I mean, why would they care about that? Why would they bother making sure that people whom they refer to clients know anything about grammar, punctuation, etc.? After all, editors don't need to know anything about that. @@
Sharon wrote: "No, sweetie-pie. I answered your question; you just didn't like the response you got. I suggest you grow accustomed to such disappointment."
Sweetie-pie?
Sweetie pie
I answered?
I've answered
You haven't answered my question.
Disappointment in what?
Sharon, that's just plain weird...who could have predicted?!
Lisa wrote: "Never mind. Oh, wait, I have to.
Arch, Nathan Bransford receives the most submissions of any active agent (according to Query Tracker, so that information is likely not complete, but it should ..."
Lisa, Nathan can't teach me anything about something that I don't desire to do. I'll let you figure out what I am talking about.
Editors aren't grammar experts.
Arch wrote: "You haven't answered my question.Disappointment in what?
"
You asked what made me a grammar expert. I told you. You didn't like the response, and then tried to pretend I never answered.
You asked to read my work. I told you where to find it. You didn't like the response because I didn't hand you something for free.
Those would be the disappointments.
Your temper tantrums may impress your mommy, but I (thank the gods) am not she.
Lisa wrote: "Sharon, that's just plain weird...who could have predicted?! "I know! I was shocked, I tell you. ;->
Arch, I'm assuming that means you don't aspire to publication or to working in the publishing industry. Which, under the circumstances, is a good thing.
Sharon wrote: "You asked what made me a grammar expert. I told you. You didn't like the response, and then tried to pretend I never answered.You asked to read my work. I told you where to find it. You didn't like the response because I didn't hand you something for free.
Those would be the disappointments.
Your temper tantrums may impress your mommy, but I (thank the gods) am not she."
You didn't answer my question.
As for your book, no I will not buy it and I wouldn't even take it if it was free.
Sharon, my mother is dead and your sentence doesn't make sense.
Your temper tantrums may impress your mommy, but I (thank the gods) am not she.
Your temper tantrums may impress your mommy, but I (thank the gods) that I am not her.
Sharon, how old are you?
Lisa wrote: "Arch, I'm assuming that means you don't aspire to publication or to working in the publishing industry. Which, under the circumstances, is a good thing. "Lisa, no I don't want to get anything published. That's not my desire, but trust me, if I really wanted to get something published, it truly can happen.
Arch attempted to correct my grammar and wrote: "Sharon wrote: "Your temper tantrums may impress your mommy, but I (thank the gods) that I am not her. "This, my dear, is why you are not an editor. The correct usage in this sentence is "I (thank the gods) am not she," as I originally posted. If you are unclear as to why that is, you may remove the parenthetical statement and then look at the link below, which explains pronoun referentials.
http://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/pr...
Sharon wrote: "Arch attempted to correct my grammar and wrote: "Sharon wrote: "Your temper tantrums may impress your mommy, but I (thank the gods) that I am not her. "This, my dear, is why you are not an editor..."
Sharon, your sentence doesn't make sense.
I wonder why you aren't an editor anymore.
Arch insists: "That's not my desire, but trust me, if I really wanted to get something published, it truly can happen."That should read "That's not my desire. Trust me; if I really wanted to get something published, it could happen."
Of course it could, Arch, but not if you treat editors as though they know nothing and denigrate their expertise.
Are you familiar with a play called "The Lion in Winter"? If not you may want to have a look at it. There's a splendid line about pork in the treetops.
Sharon wrote: "Arch insists: "That's not my desire, but trust me, if I really wanted to get something published, it truly can happen."That should read "That's not my desire. Trust me; if I really wanted to ge..."
Sharon, lol, you are trying to teach me how to write.
Writing is my talent. I do it for fun. I don't desire to get published.
Arch wrote: "Sharon, your sentence doesn't make sense.I wonder why you aren't an editor anymore. "
If you understand grammar, it makes perfect sense. You don't have to accept my expertise, of course; you were the one who said that one could look into a grammar book and see why a sentence was right or wrong. I even provided you with the grammar book to show you why my sentence was correct and yours was not. Of course, I know you didn't look, because you are so busy trying to pretend that you know more than anyone else.
I am no longer a *newspaper editor* because the newspaper where I worked went out of business -- not that it is any of your concern. I am still a columnist for another paper, as well as doing freelance editing. Your assumption that I am no longer an editor amuses me.
Why are you even on a publishers' discussion group if you aren't interested in publishing? It's a serious question. You spend all of your time denigrating or deriding those who have worked/are working in the field as editors and who have successfully been published. You accused someone on this board of being jealous of published authors; I think it is *you* who are jealous, and that you are trying to build up your very low self-esteem with these very sad posts.
I feel sorry for you.
Arch wrote: " I don't desire to get published. "That will, no doubt, save you a great deal of embarrassment.
Sharon wrote: "Arch wrote: "Sharon, your sentence doesn't make sense.I wonder why you aren't an editor anymore. "
If you understand grammar, it makes perfect sense. You don't have to accept my expertise, of c..."
Amen, Sharon.
I, for one, am getting tired of this bantering back and forth by someone who knows absolutely nothing about grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. That person is only using this forum to attack others.
I've spent many years building up my reputation as someone who is good at what they do -- namely, writing and editing.
Sharon,I am here, because I have been invited to join this group. I'm a writer. No, I don't care to be published, but that doesn't mean that I can't converse with others, who are published or even desire to be published.
A lot of my writing buddies are either published authors or writers that desire to be published one day.
If the owner of this group wants to delete me or asks me to leave, I will not be hurt.
I'm not here to fight with anyone. I state my opinions, just like everyone else. If a person doesn't like my opinion that's fine with me. I will not change my opinion for anyone, just as I wouldn't want them to change their opinion for me.
As for me thinking that I know more than anyone else - that's a lie. I have never claimed on here that I knew it all nor would I ever say that I know more than anyone else. You are the one that's trying to make editors know everything about grammar and errorless.
I know that English teachers don't even know everything there is to know about grammar. I had an English teacher challenge me in grammar and I had to shut her up, by pointing out her errors.
My point is, editors don't know everything about grammar. Editors make mistakes as well. It shows that they are human, just like writers are human.
Just because you and I weren't agreeing, you've figured that I must be a child. It never fails that someone thinks that I am a child, when I don't agree with them. People that wants people to see things their way needs to grow up.
One thing about me, I allow people to speak their mind. I don't make them a child, because they don't agree with me. I'm all for agreeing to disagree.
Now, if you don't mind, can you tell me who have I told on here that they were jealous?
LuAnn wrote:"Amen, Sharon.I, for one, am getting tired of this bantering back and forth by someone who knows absolutely nothing about grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. That person is only using this forum to attack others.
I've spent many years building up my reputation as someone who is good at what they do -- namely, writing and editing."
Luann,
I would ask you to prove to me that I don't know anything about grammar, spelling, etc. But I know you will not do it.
I'm not here to fight with anyone.
I have stated my opinion. No one has to accept it. I own it.
Arch, your opinion is along the lines of "I think cars run on fairy dust." It's factually WRONG. At least on my planet. Who knows, your mileage may vary.Yes, editors do make mistakes, because they are in fact, not robot cyborgs. But an occasional mistake does not mean that said editor knows nothing about grammar and is not required to know anything about it.
Arch wrote: "It never fails that someone thinks that I am a child, when I don't agree with them."If it "never fails," perhaps you should consider the reason. Could it be that you behave like a child, stamping your feet and insisting that the sky is green in the face of evidence to the contrary?
Hmm.
Arch challenged LuAnne: "I would ask you to prove to me that I don't know anything about grammar, spelling, etc. But I know you will not do it. "That's funny; several of us already did exactly that. You just stamped your feet AGAIN and pretended that you were correct in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Yet, you wonder why people presume you are a child ...
(Waiting for the "don't you use caps at me" temper tantrum, in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...)
Sharon wrote: "If it "never fails," perhaps you should consider the reason. Could it be that you behave like a child, stamping your feet and insisting that the sky is green in the face of evidence to the contrary? Hmm."
Sharon, if you see me as a child, what that makes you?
You want me to see things your way, just as the others wanted me to see things their way.
Sharon, you've never told me your age. I'm sure you know that age doesn't make a person mature. If you didn't know that, then now you know.
Arch wrote: "I will not change my opinion for anyone"Who would want to let a little thing like facts get in the way?
Arch wrote: "Sharon, you've never told me your age. I'm sure you know that age doesn't make a person mature. If you didn't know that, then now you know."
My age is immaterial to the discussion.
You're right, though; age does not guarantee maturity. I know 5-year-olds with greater maturity than you are presently displaying.
Lisa wrote: "Arch, your opinion is along the lines of "I think cars run on fairy dust." It's factually WRONG. At least on my planet. Who knows, your mileage may vary.Yes, editors do make mistakes, because they are in fact, not robot cyborgs. But an occasional mistake does not mean that said editor knows nothing about grammar and is not required to know anything about it.
Lisa, do me a favor, quote me saying that editors aren't required to know anything about grammar.
I say you can't do it. Prove me right!
Arch wrote: "Lisa, do me a favor, quote me saying that editors aren't required to know anything about grammar.I say you can't do it. Prove me right! "
FFS, Arch. You have insisted all throughout this thread that "editors are not grammar experts." You are WRONG.
Grammar expertise is PART AND PARCEL OF THE FRIGGING JOB.
Lisa wrote: "Wow...Uh...
Wow..."
I swear to God, I envision her as Veruca Salt.
Lisa, thank you for reply, but I still stand tall on my opinion. Editors are not grammar experts. There's one.
Lisa wrote: "Lisa, thank you for reply, but I still stand tall on my opinion. Editors are not grammar experts. There's one.
"
Hoist on her own petard, I'd say ...
Lisa wrote: "Lisa, thank you for reply, but I still stand tall on my opinion. Editors are not grammar experts. There's one.
"
Lisa, I see that I have to make myself clear to you.
Show me where I have said: "Editors aren't required to know anything about grammar."
Oh, and answer this question for me.
Am I a grammar expert? Please explain your answer.
Sharon wrote: "I swear to God, I envision her as Veruca Salt."You are seeing yourself in that mirror of yours.
No, you are obviously not a grammar expert. And right now you are just digging yourself a deeper hole. Have at. I gotta tell you though, I just got back from China, and it is COLD there right now.
Arch wrote: "Sharon wrote: "I swear to God, I envision her as Veruca Salt."You are seeing yourself in that mirror of yours.
"
Have we really resorted to "I know you are, but what am I"? And you wonder why people presume you are a child. @@
Arch wrote: "Show me where I have said: "Editors aren't required to know anything about grammar." "Oh, FFS! We all know that is what you were doing every single time you insisted, in spite of evidence put in your face to the contrary, that editors are not grammar experts.
Stop with the disingenuous, fatuous act. (Look up the big words if you don't understand them.)
Lisa wrote: "No, you are obviously not a grammar expert. And right now you are just digging yourself a deeper hole. Have at. I gotta tell you though, I just got back from China, and it is COLD there right now."Oh, but Lisa ... you didn't explain your answer to Arch. So, you see, you didn't answer her question.
ROFLMAO.
