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Which typos and quirks are unforgivable?
Sharon wrote: "Well, Arch, I gave the atrocity to the library to put in their jumble sale. However, it is Darkness Brings The Dawn Erik's Story. A bay horse is not a grey horse. It was not a "grey horse being ridden by the bay." It was a grey horse on one page, and a bay horse the next.
Sharon, I've understood what you have said about the author saying the horse was grey on one page and bay on the next.
"This link, http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Brings-Da... , very bravely offers you a chance to "look inside." Enjoy. You clearly think I have made up a story, and I *am* offended at that."
Sharon, not once did I say that you have made up a story. I've only asked to see where the author has the horse be grey on one page and bay on the next.
I'm sorry for offending you. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. You have just misunderstood what I was asking.
Nancy wrote: "The way I look at it, if my name is going to be on a book cover...whether it's my first book or my 100th, I'm still going to work hard to make sure it's clean. After all, people are spending their hard-earned money on me and I feel they deserve the best I can offer."I wholeheartedly concur.
Nancy wrote: "Arch, it seems to me that someone (and I hope it wasn't me) touched a very sensitive nerve with you! I did mention previously that I wouldn't read a particular author who's work got sloppy, but you also will see I didn't name that author. Also, when I first started working in publishing...my publisher told me that NO one is perfect, whether it be an author, editor or proofreader, and he even went on to mention that the Indians when they make their tapestries purposly make an error to show there is only one "perfect" being and that being is not human.Nancy, first off, I want to touch up on that "perfect" statement. A human can be perfect too, if it wasn't so, God wouldn't have called Job perfect.
Now, to touching my nerves, it's not my nerves that anyone is touching. I just hate to see how people are hard on authors. Do readers really realize that authors visits different sites and read reviews about their books or what people have been saying about them. These people have feelings too.
Everyone that kick an author to the side, because of errors, should see themselves in the author's shoes. Would you want people to kick you to the side, because of errors?
I agree that writers need a break and I agree with a lot that you said (by the way YOU had an error in your comments after mentioning that someone in this thread who is supposedly a grammar expert made mistakes) but let's not pick hairs here, okay?
When you speak to me, don't you capitalize a word to me. I can read just find. In case you don't know, caps are classified as screaming in the internet world. I am not dumb or stupid. I can get your point, without you capitalizing words.
Now, as for my error. Show me my error. I am not afraid to stand corrected. I have never claimed to be error free. I have never claimed to be a grammar expert.
Now, please take the time out to bring my error to the table.
I've worked both in the publishing end of the business as well as the writing end and I agree that we ALL have difficult duties and NO ONE IS PERFECT. My biggest complaint is authors who are well known who get sloppy and still sell tons of books, where us "less known" authors work very hard at prefection.
It's not the well known author's fault that his or her books are selling, regardless if they have errors in them. A lot of people like reading certain authors books. Some people will buy every book that an author writes, because they like that author.
Little known authors shouldn't get jealous of the well known authors.
It's not wise for a person to compare themselves to someone else.
A little known author should be happy with the readers they have.
The way I look at it, if my name is going to be on a book cover...whether it's my first book or my 100th, I'm still going to work hard to make sure it's clean. After all, people are spending their hard-earned money on me and I feel they deserve the best I can offer. Not only do writers need a break, so do publishers, editors, proofreaders and even illustrators and designers. Enough said from me! It's been an interesting thread and I wish you all success and all the best in the world."
I have made the statement that writers needs a break, because people are always finding something wrong with the writers. They blame them for things that other people are getting paid for.
First of all I'm not going to touch on semantics for I'm a firm believer that no one is perfect, so we can agree to disagree, okay?As for being hard on writers...I am not only an editor and author, but I also do reviews for two different venues and even if I have read a book which I feel is horrible, I ALWAYS find something good to say about it. Authors put their heart and soul into their writing and to me it's horrendous to trash one...to trash anything for that matter for I wasn't put on this earth to judge. I'm sure there are some errors in my book, but I hope my reader would like the story a lot to overlook them. I just find it sad that when a writer puts a lot of work in their writing that glaring mistakes can get by them or editors.
As for pointing out you had an error in your post, the only reason I capitalized "you" is because I am not able to use italics. I know all caps is considered screaming and that was not my intent, nor do I consider you dumb or stupid...a bit sensitive, yes, but that's what makes you you!
Seeing you're so adamant about me bringing forth your error, I'll have to go back to your post, even though I don't have the time, and feel it's totally unnecessary, but I'll look for it and post it in another reply.
For the record...I am not jealous of other authors, especially well-known ones. If anything, I admire them and I am not comparing myself to anyone else.
And, you can't always blame editors for making mistakes. Authors always have to proof their galleys before they go to press, so if an editor misses something, the author should pick it up. However did this get to be such a heated debate when most of us were only posting our opinions?
Arch wrote: "I feel that if a person has a problem with an author's work, then go to them privately and let them know about their errors or better yet, if you think that you can do a better job, then you write ..."YOU WANTED TO KNOW WHERE YOU MADE ERRORS, SO I'M WRITING THEM IN CAPS, NOT TO SCREAM AT YOU, BUT TO SHOW YOU WHERE I FOUND THEM. I'M NOT TRYING TO EMBARRASS YOU, BUT PROVE THAT YOU'RE NOT PERFECT, JUST AS I'M NOT.
I would love to sink my feet into a professional editor, proofreader, etc. work to see just how much they know about writing. SHOULD BE...I WOULD LOVE TO SINK MY ("TEETH" I BELIEVE IS THE RIGHT TERM) INTO A PROFESSIONAL EDITOR'S, PROOFREADER'S, ETC. WORK TO SEE HOW MUCH THEY KNOW ABOUT WRITING.
One thing that I don't like and that is, when a "know it all person" approach me and tell me that I don't know how to write. I politely show them their writing errors. ONE THING THAT I DON'T LIKE IS WHEN A "KNOW-IT-ALL-PERSON" APPROACHES ME AND TELLS ME THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO WRITE.
I'll never forget, when an English teacher tried to make it seem as if I don't know how to write. When, I have finished showing her, her errors, she left me along. I'LL NEVER FORGET WHEN AN ENGLISH TEACHER TRIED TO MAKE IT SEEM AS IF I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO WRITE. WHEN I FINISHED SHOWING HER HER ERRORS, SHE LEFT ME ALONE.
OKAY, YOU WANTED ME TO SHOW YOU...YOU'RE SHOWN. NOW PLEASE, GET BACK TO YOUR WRITING. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHAT YOU WRITE; YOU HAVE A LOT OF PASSION, PLEASE SHOW IT TO ME IN YOUR WORK.
I've click on new, to see the new replies in this thread and I was taken all the way down to your Cap thread Nancy, so, I am not wasting my time to read your reply. I've asked you not to capitalize words, when speaking to me. My wish has been overlooked.If anyone wants to address me, please keep in mind not to cap words,when speaking to me or don't say anything to me at all.
I am not asking anyone to speak to me, but if you are going to converse with me on your own free will, do so with respect.
Don't cap words, when speaking to me!
I am a control freak, but the errors in a book have to be pretty drastic for me to actually care about them. I get more upset about glaring historical inaccuracies than spelling or grammar issues. For example, getting the year of the Battle of Waterloo wrong in a Regency is unacceptable.On an off note, if anyone wants to emphasize words without "yelling," click the little link above the comment box that says (some html is ok) to get the tags for bold, italics and underline.
(Nancy, I understand you were not intentionally yelling. I hope the tags help.)
That's my two
Jaimey, haha.I'm finished with this discussion. People carry on.
Brett: your headlines made me laugh until I cried! Thanks for those!
Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussions! They were very informative! Just today, I sent my book back to the publisher & I think I'm done!! The copy-editing phase is coming to a close. Will the book have any errors in it, once it's released? I hope not, but if there are some, hopefully they'll be forgiven :)
I find it frustrating when I can't turn off my internal editor, especially when it becomes a distraction. Also, when I find a well-known, successful author who breaks one of the rules I've had emblazoned to my mind from my mentor/ editor. Sometimes I'll find myself emailing a particular person. "I just read____ do this. If she/he can do it, why can't I?"
Arch wrote: "Sharon, not once did I say that you have made up a story. I've only asked to see where the author has the horse be grey on one page and bay on the next."
Which indicates that you thought I made up the story.
Your presumption that anyone in this group is "jealous" of any other author is ridiculous. Good authors inspire me, regardless of their level of success (I obviously cannot speak for anyone else).
The book to which I referred was so poorly edited that I could not finish it. It was unreadable. I would have been *mortified* to have my name attached to that book. Part of an editor's job is to keep a writer from looking foolish; in the case of the book to which I refer, the editor failed in that mission.
I am done with you.
I can never turn off my proof-reading and editing mind unfortunately. It often distracts me when I see spelling errors. Even more of a distraction is when text is repeated or missed totally. That said, I know I am guilty of thinking I've typed a message properly only to find after I send it that there are errors. This is because often when we proof our own writing, the mind automatically sees what it thinks. Still, some errors are completely off. When I do reviews of proofs that I am supposed to ignore these types of errors, I am now learning to disregard them.
Jaimey wrote: "I am a control freak, but the errors in a book have to be pretty drastic for me to actually care about them. I get more upset about glaring historical inaccuracies than spelling or grammar issues. ..."Jaimey,
Thanks for your info. I did not realize that I could bold my comments. And, Arch, for the record, I was not screaming at you...just trying to get my point across as you suggested my doing so. I did not know I could post otherwise to differentiate between what you wrote and what I wrote as I mentioned in the post! Please don't take it personally...
Betty wrote: "When I do reviews of proofs that I am supposed to ignore these types of errors, I am now learning to disregard them."
I have to make a conscious effort to do so, LOL. When I review an uncorrected advance proof, I find that the errors leap out at me and I want to red-pen the thing. I need to remind myself, every single time, that this is a galley and not the finished product.
Nancy wrote: "Jaimey, Thanks for your info. I did not realize that I could bold my comments. And, Arch, for the record, I was not screaming at you...just trying to get my point across as you suggested my doing so. I did not know I could post otherwise to differentiate between what you wrote and what I wrote as I mentioned in the post! Please don't take it personally...
"
I don't get emails from Goodreads anymore, besides the digest group emails. When I want to know what's new on all the groups that I am on, I have to come to Goodreads and click on home to see all the fresh topics.
I have dropped this discussion, but for some reason I was led to click on new and I believe it's because of your reply to me Nancy.
I will not read your previous reply to me, because I don't like things said to me in caps.
I'm not an excellent writer, yet writing is my talent. Anyone that takes the time out to converse with me or should I say, read my work, they can boldly confirm that I am always letting people know that my writing sucks.
I will never say that I am a grammar expert, because I am not. I don't see authors, other writers, editors or even proofreaders as being grammar experts, because they are not.
I have read a lot of books and I am sure, if I was to take the time out to compare them to what grammar teaches, I will find errors in every single last one of them.
I have plenty of books in my TBR pile. I am sure, I will find errors in them.
My point is: No one should be hard on writers.
Arch wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Jaimey, Thanks for your info. I did not realize that I could bold my comments. And, Arch, for the record, I was not screaming at you...just trying to get my point across as you sugg..."
Arch,
I don't believe anyone should be hard on anyone... That said, I'd really like to read what you've written. I don't anyone is a "perfect" writer... we all make mistakes, and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself as a writer. It seems to me you love writing and you seem to be a passionate person, so your writing can't be all bad . I hope you've submitted your work somewhere and that you are published as I for one would like to read what you have to say. If what you write is as eloquent as your posts here, I'm sure it would be very interesting.
Nancy wrote: "Arch, I don't believe anyone should be hard on anyone... That said, I'd really like to read what you've written. I don't anyone is a "perfect" writer... we all make mistakes, and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself as a writer. It seems to me you love writing and you seem to be a passionate person, so your writing can't be all bad . I hope you've submitted your work somewhere and that you are published as I for one would like to read what you have to say. If what you write is as eloquent as your posts here, I'm sure it would be very interesting."
Thanks for the kind words Nancy. I write for fun. I don't desire to get anything published.
I'm participating in a writing challenge on another group. If you want to check out my horrible story. It's a public groups. You should be able to read the story, but you can't post a comment, unless you are a member. I have to warn you though that my story isn't polished.
I write interracial stories.
So do I, Arch. I've found it's best in some cases to write what you know, and I do a lot of interracial stories because that's what I know:-)
Jewel wrote: "So do I, Arch. I've found it's best in some cases to write what you know, and I do a lot of interracial stories because that's what I know:-)"They are fun to write Jewel.
Brett wrote: "Sharon- Your comment about 'the "ass fault" in front of the writer's house' is great. It reminds me of what happened too often at the newspaper I worked at. We had a wall of shame for all the headl..."OMG I am laughing so hard at these. They are hysterical. How these got by the editor is anyone's guess. I've learned a lot from reading this thread. Thanks for sharing everyone.
Mickey Hoffman wrote: "I don't like seeing typos because I worked as a computer typesetter for ten years. You'd think that if you're producing copy for a Wall Street firm or a magazine or an ad agency, somebody over ther..."I find as an editor for a small press, that authors like to use elipses (...) a lot! I am forever removing those and just making it a complete sentence. Now when a pause is warranted they work very well, but can be overused.
Kelly wrote: "I find as an editor for a small press, that authors like to use elipses (...) a lot! I am forever removing those and just making it a complete sentence. Now when a pause is warranted they work very well, but can be overused. "
Kelly, if you don't mind me asking, when you tell the authors what you have done, what is their reaction?
Arch wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Arch, I don't believe anyone should be hard on anyone... That said, I'd really like to read what you've written. I don't anyone is a "perfect" writer... we all make mistakes, and yo..."
I would love to read what you've written, Arch, so let me know where I can see your work! I've edited some really horrendous stuff, so yours can't be all bad.
As for writing to fun...who knows, maybe one day you will submit and get something published. If you enjoy writing so much, you should try to publish.
Kelly wrote: "Mickey Hoffman wrote: "I don't like seeing typos because I worked as a computer typesetter for ten years. You'd think that if you're producing copy for a Wall Street firm or a magazine or an ad age..."Kelly, I've found the same in my editing...as well as using a lot of em-dashes. I can understand ellipses, but like exclamation points, they can be way overused.
I tend to use ellipses when I need to leave out things that I hint at using only three dots and for deliberate pauses, four dots. The three dots is usuaully when I leave out some words or sentences that the reader could guess at.
Nancy wrote: "I would love to read what you've written, Arch, so let me know where I can see your work! I've edited some really horrendous stuff, so yours can't be all bad. As for writing to fun...who knows, maybe one day you will submit and get something published. If you enjoy writing so much, you should try to publish.
Nancy, my present story is 15 chapters and I am no where near the end.
I have to warn you, I don't write like an author. My stories are written more like scripts. I tend to write in present tense.
I know that I have tons of errors in my story. I haven't really taken the time out to really find my errors. I tend to overuse things in my stories as well, but to me, it suppose to be there.
One last thing, before I share the link. I truly don't care to get anything published. I have a lot to learn about writing and my stories will get better with time. I just enjoy being able to write what I like.
Here's the link to my story.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Kelly wrote: "Mickey Hoffman wrote: "I don't like seeing typos because I worked as a computer typesetter for ten years. You'd think that if you're producing copy for a Wall Street firm or a magazine or an ad age..."I have a tendency toward ellipse abuse (as I discovered the hard way, LOL). When I went over my MS the first time, I was appalled at how many times I used ellipses where some other form of punctuation (or none) was more appropriate. I have no idea where I developed the habit, but I now work very hard to avoid using them unless actually called for.
Arch wrote: "Kelly wrote: "I find as an editor for a small press, that authors like to use elipses (...) a lot! I am forever removing those and just making it a complete sentence. Now when a pause is warranted ..."The authors usually get a look at the final work before it goes to print and I've not had any negative response. I try not to change it if it is appropriate and it works, but overuse keeps the story from being nice and crisp. It tends to drag it out if they are used to much.
Kelly wrote: "The authors usually get a look at the final work before it goes to print and I've not had any negative response. I try not to change it if it is appropriate and it works, but overuse keeps the story from being nice and crisp. It tends to drag it out if they are used to much."Thanks Kelly.
LuAnn wrote: "Misspelled words and poor punctuation are two of my pet peeves! And I will always cringe when I see writers use words that don't exist ... for example, towards or backwards. Please don't put the "s..."Actually, those words DO exist with the "S"; they're the common usage in British spelling. My Brit CP and I have learned to ignore each other's usages.
And, as a published author, I know how mistakes can happen. For one of my books, my list of errata somehow didn't make it through the formatting process, so even though I'd fixed errors, they still appeared in the book. Yes, it chaps my hide, but there's little I (or other authors) can do about mistakes made by copy editors or typesetters, formatters, etc.
Argh -- "insure" when it should be "ensure." If you can't spell then you shouldn't be a writer or an editor. I'm less of a stickler about punctuation unless it is excessively inaccurate or distracting. The elegance of any language should be maintained and spelling and grammar are important components. Otherwise we may as well all grunt and squeak :-)
Cheryl wrote: "Argh -- "insure" when it should be "ensure." If you can't spell then you shouldn't be a writer or an editor. I'm less of a stickler about punctuation unless it is excessively inaccurate or distrac..."I disagree with you about a person shouldn't be a writer or editor, if they can't spell. Everyone makes spelling mistakes.
Arch wrote: "I disagree with you about a person shouldn't be a writer or editor, if they can't spell. Everyone makes spelling mistakes."
You know, we've all gone 'round and 'round about this. I am a former newspaper editor. If you cannot spell or properly punctuate, you should NOT be an editor. It is an embarrassment to the profession. Yes, people make typographical errors. It is an editor's job to find them.
Just today, I was reviewing a menu for a new restaurant. How embarrassing do you think it must be for the manager that their breakfast listings include "french toast grilled to a goldern brown"? I have laughed on and off ever since I saw that, and it was far from the only error.
When I was in journalism school, a spelling error was deemed an "error in fact" and was an automatic -50 points on the assignment. That meant you *failed.*
Should someone be a bank teller if they are poor with numbers?
Egad.
Sharon wrote: "You know, we've all gone 'round and 'round about this. I am a former newspaper editor. If you cannot spell or properly punctuate, you should NOT be an editor. It is an embarrassment to the profession. Yes, people make typographical errors. It is an editor's job to find them.Just today, I was reviewing a menu for a new restaurant. How embarrassing do you think it must be for the manager that their breakfast listings include "french toast grilled to a goldern brown"? I have laughed on and off ever since I saw that, and it was far from the only error.
When I was in journalism school, a spelling error was deemed an "error in fact" and was an automatic -50 points on the assignment. That meant you *failed.*
Should someone be a bank teller if they are poor with numbers?
Egad."
Writers and editors aren't grammar experts.
Just because a writer misspelled a word, doesn't mean he or she shouldn't be a writer.
I truly wonder how many writers we have on this thread alone.
As for bank tellers, they make mistakes as well.
Humans will make a mistake.
Mistakes are one thing. Lacking the proper skill set for the job is something else.We all make typos, or our eyes see what our brain expects, not what's on the page when we try to edit our own work. Fresh eyes, experienced in what they are looking for, are critical.
I had a character's name wrong the first time I introduced him, and it didn't register until I had the ARCs. Two different editors, four runs through the MS, but nobody caught it.
Terry wrote: "Mistakes are one thing. Lacking the proper skill set for the job is something else.We all make typos, or our eyes see what our brain expects, not what's on the page when we try to edit our own wo..."
Terry if you don't mind me asking, what was the character's name and how were you spelling it? Maybe the editors didn't pick up that the name was an error, because of a different spelling.
Arch - The character's name was supposed to be Blackthorne. He was the head of Blackthorne, Inc., a major focus of the book. But for whatever reason, the first time he showed up on the page (luckily, corrected in the final copy so it's right in the book); he was Blackstone.
Arch wrote: "Writers and editors aren't grammar experts. "You know, Arch, it occurs to me that you simply haven't been educated on what an editor does. Perhaps these links will help:
http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pa... - Quote: Editors strive to make the text of newspaper articles, magazine features, and books error free. Copy editors edit for mistakes in spelling, punctuation, and grammar. They also check a manuscript for form, length, and completeness.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos320.htm#tr... - Quote: A bachelor’s degree or higher is typically needed for a job as an author, writer, or editor. Because writing skills are essential in this occupation, many employers like to hire people with degrees in communications, journalism, or English, but those with other backgrounds and who can demonstrate good writing skills may also find jobs as writers.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2095871_becom... - Quote: Memorize the Associated Press style book and have a strong knowledge of grammar and commonly misspelled words. Many newspapers require you to take a test during your application process, showing your editing skills.
Yes, writers will make typographical errors. It is the EDITOR'S JOB TO FIX THEM.
Sharon wrote: "Arch wrote: "Writers and editors aren't grammar experts. "You know, Arch, it occurs to me that you simply haven't been educated on what an editor does. Perhaps these links will help:
http://car..."
Sharon,
First of all, don't scream at me. If you want to talk to me like an adult, then by all means I don't mind having a conversation with you. But, if you are going to be ugly, I will not waste my time.
You can post all the information you want, you will not change my opinion.
Editors and writers aren't grammar experts. Now, you can continue to hate on my opinion. I stand tall period!
Terry wrote: "Arch - The character's name was supposed to be Blackthorne. He was the head of Blackthorne, Inc., a major focus of the book. But for whatever reason, the first time he showed up on the page (luck..."
Oh okay Terry. Thanks for sharing that.
I hope you don't mind me asking, did your editors know the name of your character beforehand? If not, they probably thought that you've came up with a name and that's why they didn't see anything wrong with the name.
Sometimes, I like to create names for my characters or even change a spelling of a name.
Arch wrote: "Editors and writers aren't grammar experts. Now, you can continue to hate on my opinion. I stand tall period! "Okay, Arch. Whatever you say. Obviously, a girl who has never been an editor knows more about the matter than someone who has actually done the job. Naturally, you also know more than those who are looking to hire editors. Why on earth would they know anything, compared to you? @@ You're welcome to "stand tall" on your ignorance; it reflects poorly on you, but so be it.
"I am no longer young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
Arch wrote: "Terry wrote: "Arch - The character's name was supposed to be Blackthorne. He was the head of Blackthorne, Inc., a major focus of the book. But for whatever reason, the first time he showed up o..."
Arch, the character was referred to as Blackthorne throughout the book, with that one stupid exception of the first time he was introduced. It wasn't that I decided to change his name, it was a mistake, plain and simple. I've done it in drafts many times with names, but my crit partners caught them before I ever submitted them. My current WIP has a character named Justin who has shown up as Jason from time to time...probably because it's my son's name and I type it without thinking.
But the Blackstone/Blackthorne issue was my initial error which slid by numerous rounds of edits.
Terry wrote: "Arch, the character was referred to as Blackthorne throughout the book, with that one stupid exception of the first time he was introduced. It wasn't that I decided to change his name, it was a mistake, plain and simple. I've done it in drafts many times with names, but my crit partners caught them before I ever submitted them. My current WIP has a character named Justin who has shown up as Jason from time to time...probably because it's my son's name and I type it without thinking.But the Blackstone/Blackthorne issue was my initial error which slid by numerous rounds of edits."
Well, at least the error has been corrected and that's a good thing.
Sharon wrote: "Okay, Arch. Whatever you say. Obviously, a girl who has never been an editor knows more about the matter than someone who has actually done the job. Naturally, you also know more than those who are looking to hire editors. Why on earth would they know anything, compared to you? @@ You're welcome to "stand tall" on your ignorance; it reflects poorly on you, but so be it."Sharon, I am not a girl. I am a woman!
You can keep trying to make it seems as if editors are grammar experts all you want, but they are not.
I'm a writer and I know that writers aren't grammar experts.
If editors were so much grammar experts, then that would mean that no books with errors would be on bookshelves. If I am lying, then by all means correct me. I am not afraid to stand corrected.
Do you realize that even doctors makes mistake? How is that so, if they are suppose to be expert in their field?
Arch wrote: "Do you realize that even doctors makes mistake? How is that so, if they are suppose to be expert in their field? "Non sequitur, and irrelevant to the discussion.
You can keep trying to make it seems as if editors are grammar experts all you want, but they are not.
According to you, and you alone. Yes, errors slip past from time to time -- but it is the editor's job to make sure that the book is error-free. If there is an error in the published book, the editor is at fault.
Sharon, I am not a girl. I am a woman!
Well, IMO you are behaving like a petulant child. You have never been an editor, obviously. I *have.* I know what an editor's job is, from experience. You stamping your little foot and insisting otherwise doesn't change the facts; it just makes you look foolish and juvenile. If that's the impression you wish to convey, I congratulate you on your success.
Sharon wrote: "Well, IMO you are behaving like a petulant child. You have never been an editor, obviously. I *have.* I know what an editor's job is, from experience. You stamping your little foot and insisting otherwise doesn't change the facts; it just makes you look foolish and juvenile. If that's the impression you wish to convey, I congratulate you on your success."Sharon, you look like the petulant child, you so badly wants me to be.
I have never been an editor, but I know that editors aren't grammar experts. You aren't even a grammar expert.
End of disucssion!
I'm finished engaging in this conversation with you.
This adult is moving on, so please be an adult and move on to or you can stay here. It's your choice, but I will not be talking to you on this matter anymore.
I have stated my opinion and standing tall on it.
You have stated your opinion and standing tall on it.
Um, wow? As a person whose book was recently acquired by a NY publisher and who just went through the whole editorial/proofing/you name it process, I have to agree with Sharon here: it's the editor's job to catch mistakes, and the copy editor's job after that. Sure, your editorial editor is looking first at big picture/story/continuity issues, but in my experience she/he is in fact a grammar expert, and the copy editor even more so. It's their JOB. That doesn't mean mistakes aren't made, but we are talking about the actual skill sets for these positions, and being very very good at grammar is part of these.As for writers, we certainly need to be good at grammar; otherwise we are not likely to be great writers. I'm not an expert, and I defer to my editor when I'm not clear on what the proper syntax or comma usage is. But I'd better have the basics down. It's very hard to be taken seriously as a writer if you don't.
So I'd say, this is not a question of "opinion" here. It is about the facts of a particular job. Belief that goes against fact really isn't a great place to make a stand.
Sorry for wading in but I have been getting lengthy email updates on this and had to say something.
Lisa wrote: "Um, wow? As a person whose book was recently acquired by a NY publisher and who just went through the whole editorial/proofing/you name it process, I have to agree with Sharon here: it's the editor..."Lisa, thank you for reply, but I still stand tall on my opinion. Editors are not grammar experts.
Arch, it seems to me that someone (and I hope it wasn't me) touched a very sensitive nerve with you! I did mention previously that I wouldn't read a particular author who's work got sloppy, but you also will see I didn't name that author. Also, when I first started working in publishing...my publisher told me that NO one is perfect, whether it be an author, editor or proofreader, and he even went on to mention that the Indians when they make their tapestries purposly make an error to show there is only one "perfect" being and that being is not human.
I agree that writers need a break and I agree with a lot that you said (by the way YOU had an error in your comments after mentioning that someone in this thread who is supposedly a grammar expert made mistakes) but let's not pick hairs here, okay? I've worked both in the publishing end of the business as well as the writing end and I agree that we ALL have difficult duties and NO ONE IS PERFECT. My biggest complaint is authors who are well known who get sloppy and still sell tons of books, where us "less known" authors work very hard at prefection. The way I look at it, if my name is going to be on a book cover...whether it's my first book or my 100th, I'm still going to work hard to make sure it's clean. After all, people are spending their hard-earned money on me and I feel they deserve the best I can offer. Not only do writers need a break, so do publishers, editors, proofreaders and even illustrators and designers. Enough said from me! It's been an interesting thread and I wish you all success and all the best in the world.