Nicholas Nickleby: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 10

[Peacejanz]

But the US has produced Percival Everett. His current book, James, is on the Booker final list and maybe the Pulitzer list, along with being on former President Obama's 2024 summer reading list. Everett makes fun of everything in a Dickens-like way. He is fiercely against racism and that shows up in most of his books. He is a black man, professor in an elite university. If you enjoy Dickens' subtle and not-so-subtle digs, you will love Everett. peace, janz

[Paul]

Jim wrote: "Dickens understood that few if any readers would tolerate a soberly stated diatribe; and that portraying rascals like Snawley or Squeers as the outright villains that they were would quickly grow tiresome. Colorful caricature and ridicule, when skillfully done, is both memorable and effective while also providing entertainment (i.e. selling books) without reducing the sting."

On the other hand, there are plenty of examples where Dickens uses straightforward villainy as a metaphorical representation for political commentary without benefit of humour as a means of softening the blow or making it more palatable for a reader. Tulkinghorn, Krook, and Skimpole of BLEAK HOUSE, Thomas Gradgrind of HARD TIMES and even Fagan and Bill Sykes of OLIVER TWIST come to mind.

Perhaps it might be more broadly stated that Dickens' genius rested in knowing which approach to take for which characters and which novels.

[Laura]

My favorite quote of the chapter:

'I remember very well, sir,' rejoined Squeers. 'Ah! Mrs Squeers, sir, was as partial to that lad as if he had been her own; the attention, sir, that was bestowed upon that boy in his illness! Dry toast and warm tea offered him every night and morning when he couldn't swallow anything--a candle in his bedroom on the very night he died--the best dictionary sent up for him to lay his head upon--I don't regret it though. It is a pleasant thing to reflect that one did one's duty by him.'

Who can swallow dry toast to begin with? A candle on the night he died, what about all the nights before that? and of course, a dictionary makes the best pillow. Squeers sacrificed so much for the deathly ill child.

Got to love Dickens' wit.

[Claudia]

Laura wrote: "My favorite quote of the chapter:

'I remember very well, sir,' rejoined Squeers. 'Ah! Mrs Squeers, sir, was as partial to that lad as if he had been her own; the attention, sir, that was bestowed..."

Very good comments on this tragically cynical quote from Mr Squeer's words. However you did well mentioning it.

It is not my favourite, but rather something I would like to forget, as this piece of dark humour illustrated the cruelty of such
self-proclaimed boarding schools which were
"disposing of" unwanted children in rough conditions, but "pocketing coins". "The Son of Man had not even a stone to lay his head" but this poor one had a dictionary...

[Kathleen]

Great point, Jim. I feel a humorous touch in all of his villains, even the more straightforward ones, and I appreciate the irony even when the subject is serious.

Like my favorite line from this chapter: “…Mr. Squeers looked at the little boy to see whether he was doing anything he could beat him for.” Tragic that this was a constant fear for these boys, but the seriousness isn't spoiled by the laugh I get from the line.

And thank you for bringing up Everett, Janz Looking forward to that even more now!

Jean, since I see I'm the second Kathleen here, you can call me Kathleen C., or if that's too long, KC will do! Thanks for caring about keeping us all straight. :-)

[Lee]

Referring to Message 149 by Kelly in which she remarks upon a comment made by Sam: "Sam, to remark on your third motif, fate (but is it fate, or simple luck?) "
"The run of luck went against Mr Nickleby; a mania prevailed, a bubble burst, four stockbrokers took villa residences at Florence, four hundred nobodies were ruined, and among them Mr Nickleby.

Fate, or destiny, seems to be a running theme, as some are fated to be prosperous and others aren't?"

I believe it is too early in this story to decide whether or not Charles Dickens is making a grand statement about fatalism here. In the crooked market economy he is describing in this chapter, it seems to me that blind luck rules, not fate.

Was Dickens saying, in this one sentence, that Ralph Nickleby was "predestined" to come out on top? I don't have enough information yet to decide that, and though Dickens was religious and ostensibly a Christian in that he believed in Jesus Christ, he steered away from theology and religious dogma. In my mind I conflate the term "destiny" with predestination, and I don't think that concept is implied here by Dickens either.

"Predestination and fatalism," says Schopenhauer, "do not differ in the main. They differ only in this, that with predestination the external determination of human action proceeds from a rational Being, and with fatalism from an irrational one.
https://feileadhmor.wordpress.com/201...

[Lee]

Commenting on Message 157Bionic Jean wrote: "Peter wrote: "makes me wonder about the phrase ‘all the Rest.’ Will this chapter exclude a person/persons who will not appear in this chapter but who will prove to be essential to the plot?..."

Jean writes: "It is "edited", he feels, as the characters are real people in his mind, clamouring for their story to be told ... just as in the famous posthumous painting of him, 'Dickens's Dream.'"

I remember reading that one of Charles Dickens daughters (Mamie?) would observe her father standing before a mirror and acting out his characters as one might do to prepare for a play. I agree with Jean; Dickens, as a genius, was fully capable of holding an entire set of characters for a novel in his head before a novel was written. It is an astounding thought, but also I recall some of his correspondence with John Forster
in which Dickens describes spending all day with Oliver Twist, the boy, in his head as he was writing the novel.

[Jim]

But the US has produced Percival Everett ... makes fun of everything in a Dickens-like way
Thanks for this, janz! I shall look up his work. Today (in this truculent era where anyone who disagrees with us is deemed to be evil) anyone able to emulate Dickens is a welcome voice.

[Lee]

from Message 212 when Lori wrote: "I liked that quote as well. . . . From the first chapter I had a sense of Mrs. Nickleby as an ‘Eve’ and her husband as ‘Adam’. She was the one who thought of his brother’s speculating and encouraged it but it ruined them instead."

I quietly disagree here with the comparison of Mr. and Mrs. Nickleby to Adam and Eve There is simply no Biblical reference to make it relevant. Charles Dickens only says of Mrs. Nickleson that she was " the daughter of a neighboring gentleman with a dower of one thousand pounds. This good lady bore him two children. . .
Revised.

[Lee]

Message 246 Kelly wrote: "Lee wrote: "Kelly wrote: "I read chapter two over a few meals today ..." AND "What does it mean that Mr Bonney's white hat "was so full of papers that it would scarcely stick upon his head"?

I love the Lincoln hat image!!

[Sam]

Lee wrote: "Referring to Message 149 by Kelly in which she remarks upon a comment made by Sam. Kelly wrote: "Sam wrote: "This is a fascinating first chapter with . . . "Sam, to remark on your third motif, fate..."

Just to clarify Lee, I was using the term, "fate," more as a synonym for "luck", or more exactly "chance." I did not want to imply predestination or Classical connotations. I was thinking of a phrase from an old tv show, Rowan and Martin's Laugh-in, and the phrase was "the flying fickle finger of fate," which not only implied chance but chance with a somewhat ironic tinge. Unfortunately, I
sometimes get stuck on a word or thought and can't quickly find the better choice at the moment and yet am too selfish to give up the post entirely. And this lets me address a comment made earlier about erudition in one of my posts. I had to laugh and quickly wanted to respond "Wrong!!" to that, but figured Jean would take care of it for me. But since she did not, I propose that my responses are immediate reactions to what I am reading and often (as those of you familiar with my posts can attest) can be quite off! But the fun of this format for me is not in being correct or well-studied on what we say, but rather in being our open and honest about how we react to the reading. Then, as we move further along in the novel we see
how our opinions change or (sometimes do not change) when exposed to more of the novel and other responses. I offer two caveats to the above. First, I will base my reaction on other Dickens
material I have read sometimes, so it isn't just on the work at hand, and second I will pursue ideas I think have are not fully explored in other criticism I have read. An example of the first would be my commenting on Dickens flare for the theatrical or dramatic which not only is evident here but in most of what I have read and especially how that tendency was picked up by filmmakers and how the whole history of film was heavily influenced by Dickens literary approach. An example of the second would be that confrontation Dickens wrote between Ralph and young Nicholas. There is something in that which feels very important. Part of the reason is despite Dickens youth, he would know that in many people's eyes, Nicholas is out of place, acting rude to an elder, no matter how justified the reason. I don't see Dickens do this very often and to show this boldness in his writing seems unusual. I'll quote a line from another book I am reading which seems more what I would expect Dickens to follow:

"You have to respect the old no matter how horrible they are to you."

So I will be keeping that scene in my head and may comment on something in the future that I think related.

[Laura]

Claudia wrote: It is not my favourite, but rather something I would like to forget, as this piece of dark humour illustrated the cruelty of such
self-proclaimed boarding schools which were
"disposing of" unwanted children in rough conditions, but "pocketing coins". "The Son of Man had not even a stone to lay his head" but this poor one had a dictionary.

Maybe my “favorite quote” phrase was a misinterpreted to think I only found it humorous, but it’s my favorite for the satirical effect of Dickens’ wit. He uses self-piety to demonstrate all sort of villainous characters, and I think sarcasm can impress a more realized disgust with the reader. That’s all.

[Chris]

Jim wrote: "Someone suggested that Ralph Nickleby might have been an early prototype for Scrooge. Whether or not there's any truth in that, it is certain that Dickens was conveying a value judgment in both cas..."

I have been so busy these past few days, I've had no time to spend on commenting. But I did have to say that I totally agree with your comments Jim.

[Chris]

Boy I don't know who to dislike most, Ralph or Mr. Squeers. But this quote “…Mr. Squeers looked at the little boy to see whether he was doing anything he could beat him for.” and a few other musings from Mr. Squeers he is currently at the top.

[Lori]

Lee wrote: "from Message 212 when Lori wrote: "I liked that quote as well. . . . From the first chapter I had a sense of Mrs. Nickleby as an ‘Eve’ and her husband as ‘Adam’. She was the one who thought of his ..."

To clarify your understanding of what I said, Lee, I referred to Ralph - the brother - as the serpent not the dead husband, Mr. Nickleby.

It is my opinion only that Dicken’s biblical references are not always meant to be literal but figurative. If I see these behaviors reminiscent of behaviors by biblical people, then so be it. If you do not, that is ok too. As already noted by another reader here, we all get different perspectives or opinions from the same reading.

I am not saying that Dickens intended these characters to be perceived as Adam and Eve characters at all. Mr. Nickleby was ruined ( as was Mrs. Nickleby) by her suggestion to speculate. Ralph’s words to her created doubt. To me it was easy to see the similarities.
No worries.

[Lee]

Sorry, Lori. No offense intended. I revised my comments, if that helps at all.

[Lee]

Sam wrote in Message 262 that he did not want to imply anything like "predestination or other classical connotations" My apologies, Sam. I think the word "fate" can lead to mistaken conclusions and that was my error! I see that this was not your intent at all.

Meanwhile, I definitely agree about the confrontation between Ralph and his nephew Nicholas: "There is something in that which feels very important. Part of the reason is despite Dickens youth, he would know that in many people's eyes, Nicholas is out of place, acting rude to an elder, no matter how justified the reason." But Ralph was offensive at the very beginning of this meeting, and no wonder Nicholas reacted the way he did, being equally rude. Dickens gave the "boy" some space here!

Did you see something of Charles Dickens himself in the way he described Nicholas? " . . . the young man's [eyes were] bright with the light of intelligence and spirit. His figure was somewhat slight, but manly and well-formed; and . . . there was an emanation from the warm young heart in his look and heart which kept the old man down"?

Dickens was said to have had a slight but handsome figure and also that his eyes really startled people when they met him in person with their intelligence.

Do you know what Dickens meant by saying his look " . . . kept the old man down."

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Hi all,

Gosh, lots of in-depth comments here, which I will have to reread tomorrow to do justice to, as I've been in London all day (not at the Dickens museum this time LOL but an Art gallery). I know I initially said please don't expect any comments from me on the "break days", but perhaps it will help if I pick out a couple of things here.

First, it's great that everyone is picking out literary tropes and the like, and wondering whether Charles Dickens is foreshadowing etc., but we do need to remember that he only had a very vague idea of where this novel was going. He did though, as he wrote, deliberately try to make it more of a structured story than either the episodic sketches of The Pickwick Papers, or the nightmarish, mesmeric Oliver Twist (with that great convoluted chapter near the end to make it all work 🤔). Also, yes he certainly still has some of the same social concerns as he had in Oliver Twist - he was writing them both at the same time, remember - but handles them in a completely different way. Yet it is, when all's said, a picaresque tale, and nowhere near as deep as his great middle novels.

So we might pick up on ideas which we know (from his later works) would be dear to Charles Dickens, but they are unlikely to be crafted and structured into what we consider to be a fully developed novel. That's not to say there aren't some breathtaking passages though - there are!

Sam - You wondered why I didn't pick you up on "Fate". Well, the first motif you suggested was "value which we see mostly in monetary references". Yes! As we all know, Charles Dickens was very conscious of finance, because of his own parents' bad planning and impecuniousness, and also his social conscience about the poor - and we see that right from the start of his writing. You carry on "The second is expectation which includes unfulfilled expectation and the occurrence of the unexpected. The third is the role of fate".

You're correct that I did a double take at "fate" but "luck or circumstances" would have been fine, as you say. Sometimes it's best to leave things be, though (e.g. Beth N. was keen to correct me highlighting both a watch and padlock as often being significant indicators in Charles Dickens, because I had inadvertently said "his" for Noggs, and she rightly observed "The watch and padlock belong to Ralph". But of course this does not negate the point I was trying to make, that they are important motifs for us to bear in mind, and for us to wonder what they might indicate.)

We have to give each other the benefit of the doubt in expressing things precisely, so I'm not going to come down on anyone like a ton of bricks for using a word which might not be quite what they intended to mean (we can all do that, as my example shows!) or keep going on about an issue when we should move on, or put a point of view which might prove unpopular. The essence of good argument is surely based on having a variety of valid opinions, and discussing them as clearly as we can, (and respectfully of course, as we always do in Dickensians!)

Sam - I had actually started to mull over your second two ideas of expectation and luck, because I was reading an essay called something like "Peripety and the point of reversal in Nicholas Nickleby" - and the themes fitted together quite neatly! I will talk about this in due course when we have read more, so there will be examples for us to consider. By the time I had collected my thoughts more on this, the moment for commenting at that point had passed ... but it will return.

Self-evidently, we do need to read more before we can identify some themes, but that does not mean anyone can't say if they have an inkling! Nothing has been said that is totally off the wall, and plenty has been said that is spot on. I love reading ideas that had not occurred to me, and hope others do too! I could see exactly what you meant about the serpent and Adam and Eve, Lori, and never took it as being anything other than metaphorical, so I just enjoyed the moment. Charles Dickens certainly does have some passages where he talks about Christianity ... there's one just a couple of chapters further on for instance - but I'm sure that this was not intended to be Biblical. However the interpretation you gave of their character parallels was so original and irresistible!

Those were the two cases where I thought it might help if I said something, but I'd better stop and turn in for the night now. 😴We've got a great chapter coming up tomorrow! And then a new voice in chapter 6, which I think will surprise everyone! (No peeking now! 😆)

[Dee]

I am always fascinated by Dickens' intimate description of particular places. His long preamble in chapter 4 about Snow Hill and the Saracen's Head Inn located in Newgate leaves the reader with a sense of foreboding, which is only reinforced in his preface. ( I listened to the Preface after Chapter 4.) Does anyone elseone feel foreshadowing of evil in both? I already fear for the five children and any others at the school, and
naive, young Nicholas also will have a rude awakening and a dashing of his dreams for the future.

[Kelly]

We're winding up our discussion of part I, but I did want to chime in with a few of my take-aways and questions from Chapter 4.

Sacaren's Head - I learned the meaning of the word 'sacaren' which is a member of a nomadic people of the deserts between Syria and Arabia, according to Mirriam-Webster, or more broadly, an Arab person. The word was inherited from the Crusades. I had never heard of this word before.

The omnibus horses and their traffic pattern(?) confused me, so I looked that up as well but have not had any luck ("...on that particular part of Snow Hill where omnibus horses going eastwards seriously think of falling down on purpose, and where horses in hackney cabriolets going westwards not unfrequently fall by accident..."... huh?) Why would they fall down on purpose?

I found it funny that Mr Squeers "appeared ill at ease in his clothes, as as if he were in a perpetual state of astonishment at finding himself so respectable."

The little boys who came to meet Mr Squeers "writhed" around "according to the custom of little boys when they first become acquainted". As I'm still reading David Copperfield, I was immediately reminded of Uriah Heep and his writhing, but it seems to be a different context or type of writhing??

Lastly, even though I've started calling myself a bookdragon instead of a bookworm :-) I did laugh when Nicholas thought all bookworms are odd-looking!

[Sam]

"Lee wrote: "But Ralph was offensive at the very beginning of this meeting, and no wonder Nicholas reacted the way he did, being equally rude. Dickens gave the "boy" some space here!.."

Going to try and be brief but I absolutely love how with just a couple of paragraphs Dickens can stir up such lively conversation. I agree that there is justification, but also think Dickens was very true to the idea of characters acting according to type, thus Nicholas being a good character, I would have expected Dickens to have described his defiance in much more passive tones, perhaps in a look or a shuffling of feet, or clenching of a hand which would carry the protest without violating the politeness edict. That it is outward defiance strikes me as atypical.

"Lee wrote: "Did you see something of Charles Dickens himself in the way he described Nicholas? " . . ."

Great question! Dickens being only in his mid-twenties would certainly indicate he would take pleasure in Nicholas' actions but I see Dickens as fairly reliable in having his characters' actions fit the melodramatic roles they are assigned. This is arguable of course but I feel it fits more often than not. And when a character acts atypically from the role expected, I feel it is a reason for attention. For example in O.Twist there are examples in both Oliver's behavior and Nancy's that come to mind and I thought they were important in that book.

"Lee wrote: "Do you know what Dickens meant by saying his look " . . . kept the old man down.

I took this to be as close to an example of Christian symbolism as I will usually point out. I look at the words . . . there was an emanation from the warm young heart in his look and heart,,, to be the very definition of 'goodness," and this goodness emanating from Nicholas is almost like a power holding the evil in Ralph at bay with Ralph being appearing on the level of a beast.

One more short thought on this passage. I marvel at Dickens skill at narration and in the short lines of the staring contest I quoted, I see three slight variations in the narration. We have already defined the narrative voice but Dickens in my opinion varies this by degrees so I get feeling of polyphony in the narrative voice or voices. In the passage I cited earlier there is the omniscient narration but when I hear Nicholas' attributes listed, I feel the sense of an authorial voice acting almost as overlook so it seems Dickens himself is listing those qualities, and it is a slightly different voice than the regular narrative omniscience. And then finally in that last sentence, I see what I will call a "sliding" narrative voice where the voice slides down from an omniscient POV to one that seems to come from deep in the heart or soul of Ralph. I do not know if others sense such slight degrees of change but I think it one of Dickens' most defining and clever qualities.

Okay, enough on that quotation. We are due for chapter six and I am still yapping about chapter three, so I won't return to this unless something comes up in the novel that refers me back to these thoughts. For now let us move on and let Jean guide us since there is so much more to be discussed.

[Connie]

Kelly wrote: "We're winding up our discussion of part I, but I did want to chime in with a few of my take-aways and questions from Chapter 4.

Sacaren's Head - I learned the meaning of the word 'sacaren' which ..."

Thanks for the meaning of Sacaren, Kelly. It was a word that I was planning on looking up too.

Regarding your interesting question about the horses on Snow Hill:
("...on that particular part of Snow Hill where omnibus horses going eastwards seriously think of falling down on purpose, and where horses in hackney cabriolets going westwards not unfrequently fall by accident..."... huh?) Why would they fall down on purpose?
I think Dickens is just using humor to show us that the hill is very steep and tiring for the horses going up the hill. The horses might "think of falling" just to catch their breath, but would probably just slow down in reality. The passengers had to get out of the coach, and walk up a really steep hill to help the horses.

However, they might fall by accident going down the hill if the coach behind them picked up too much speed, a wheel broke, or they hit a pothole. The earliest stagecoaches did not have any brakes. Sometimes later, the drivers used a drag brake such as a log that provided friction in back. Even later, the drivers had levers that pressed pieces of metal or wood coated with leather against the wheels.

https://about1816.wordpress.com/tag/s...
https://tringlocalhistory.org.uk/Trin...

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Installment 2

Chapter 5: Nicholas starts for Yorkshire. Of his Leave-taking and his Fellow-Travellers, and what befell them on the Road

Nicholas’s mother and sister feel dejected as they help him to pack. He insists on leaving behind things that he thinks will be useful to them, or which can be sold for money. They spend money they don’t have on a dinner for Nicholas, telling him that they are not joining him because they had eaten earlier. Nicholas forces himself to be cheerful for their benefit, but by the end all three are in tears.

The next morning, Nicholas wakes and leaves before the rest of his family are up. He gives Miss La Creevy several affectionate kisses, hoping she will be kindly disposed towards his mother and sister. She promises she will, and wishes him well on his journey.



“Miss La Creevy discourses on Types of Noses - ”Snubs and Romans are plentiful enough, and there are flats of all sorts and sizes when there’s a meeting at Exeter Hall.” - Fred Barnard - 1875

Nicholas finds Mr. Squeers breakfasting with five pupils, two more having arrived. He is eating beef and toast, while laying down moral precept for the boys, to:

“Conquer your passions, boys, and don’t be eager after vittles.” [victuals: food]

After they have waited a long time, Squeers let the boys drink watered down milk from one cup, which they all take turns in sharing. They then have 3 slices of bread and butter between them, but are rushed away before they can finish it, Squeers again saying:

“’Subdue your appetites, my dears, and you’ve conquered human natur. This is the way we inculcate strength of mind, Mr. Nickleby,’ … speaking with his mouth very full of beef and toast.”

Ralph comes to greet Nicholas as the coach gets ready to depart. He tells Nicholas, with some disapproval, that his mother and sister paid for a private hackney coach so that they too could see him off. Nicholas’s mother frets over his leaving without breakfast. Ralph brushes off her concern:

“When I first went to business, ma’am, I took a penny loaf and a ha’porth of milk for my breakfast as I walked to the city every morning; what do you say to that, ma’am? Breakfast! Bah!”

and tells Nicholas to ride on the top of the coach:

“I’m afraid of one of them boys falling off and then there’s twenty pound a year gone.”

Nicholas’s mother continues to say she would never forgive herself if she wasn’t there to say goodbye.

Nicholas’s sister Kate thinks Squeers is rough, and does not want to meet him. “”Dear Nicholas,“ whispered Kate, touching her brother’s arm, ”who is that vulgar man?“” After hearing this, Ralph Nickleby deliberately makes a point of introducing Squeers to her:



“Kate Nickleby introduced to Mr. Squeers - Harry Furniss - 1910



“Introducing to the Yorkshire Schoolmaster - ”Very glad to make your acquaintance, miss,” said Squeers, raising his hat an inch or two - Fred Barnard - 1875

Nicholas wants to punch the headmaster for how he fawns on Kate, but knowing her brother would feel this way, she gently leads him away. Kate has misgivings about Nicholas’s employer, but Nicholas is making the best of it:

“I suppose the Yorkshire folks are rather rough and uncultivated; that’s all.”

Newman Noggs secretly reaches up and hands Nicholas a letter, telling him that nobody knows. He the leaves quickly, despite Nicholas calling him back to explain.



“Nicholas Starts for Yorkshire” - “Phiz” (Hablot Knight Browne) - May 1838

“A minute’s bustle, a banging of the coach doors, a swaying of the vehicle to one side, as the heavy coachman, and still heavier guard, climbed into their seats; a cry of all right, a few notes from the horn, a hasty glance of two sorrowful faces below, and the hard features of Mr. Ralph Nickleby—and the coach was gone too, and rattling over the stones of Smithfield.”

Nicholas anxiously keeps hold of the boys to keep them from falling off. They go through Islington, stopping at the Peacock Inn. A merry stranger helps him when he boards by taking the end seat and having the boys sit in the middle. Upon learning that this gentleman has a brother with six sons, Squeers gives him his card and launches into a long speech about about how superior his school is. The weather is bitterly cold. Nicholas and the merry stranger talk, to make the journey pass more quickly.

Leaving London the weather is bitterly cold. Mr. Squeers gets down at almost every stage—to “stretch his legs”, he said—and as he always comes back with a very red nose and went straight to to sleep, the narrator says that stretching his legs must have done him good.

Nicholas and the merry stranger talk, to make the journey pass more quickly. They travel all day, up through the middle of England, through Stamford, until during the night, somewhere between Grantham and Newark, the carriage overturns and is dragged by the horses. Nicholas hangs on, wondering whether to try and rescue the lady inside but is flung unto the road.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

And a little more ...

Snow Hill

Snow Hill has been mentioned before in novels we have read by Charles Dickens - there may be posts in both Little Dorrit and Oliver Twist group reads threads - because it was infamous as a very dangerous hill for carriages (thanks for the links Connie! And yes Kelly - all this description by Dickens is very much in jest.)

Snow Hill is exceptionally steep in parts; even now the tube between Moorgate and Farringdon is 1 in 30 in parts - and used to be 1 in 35! https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thre...

The name is nothing to do with weather. It is from an Old English word meaning "road that curves across a gradient" plus "hyll" [hill].

The Oxford Dictionary of London Place Names says it was Snore Hylle in the 13th century; Snowrehille in 1507, Snourehilstrete in 1544; and Shore hill in 1598:

“The short road still so named,” says the dictionary, “is indeed a relatively steep and winding one, although it is not on the same line as the medieval one.”

F. H. Habben in London Street Names; Their Origin, Signification, and Historic Value; With Divers Notes and Observations says:

“I take Snore to be that of the early landowner, probably Snorro, a Scandinavian settler; one of the unwept, unhonoured, and unsung,” but then goes on to say:

“One daring old antiquary has it Sore Hill, and attributes the name to the labour and pain of the ascent, as indeed was the case until the construction of the viaduct; for which better testimony can we require than that of Charles Dickens in Nicholas Nickleby?”

Or the name could come from the Celtic word "suadh" a brook, because the hill once led to the Fleet River, which we also often come across in Charles Dickens's work.

Take your pick, but it's nothing to do with bad weather, as we might have thought.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

The Saracen’s Head and Snow Hill

Several remarked on this, and have defined the term “saracen” at this time. The Saracen’s Head was a coaching inn dating back to the time of Richard the Lionheart (who stopped there when he came back from the Crusades and gave the landlord permission to name it so).

Charles Dickens describes several landmarks on Snow Hill, between Smithfield (we know of that huge market from posts for earlier novels) and “The Compter”; this was a debtor’s prison in Giltspur Street.

The Saracen’s Head Inn was demolished in 1868



An 1868 illustration of the Saracen's Head, made during its demolition - wiki

and the Snow Hill police station stood on the site until 2019 when it was vacated. In 2020 the City of London sold the lease of the building for 151 years to Whitbread, and in 2021 the City of London Corporation approved plans for the redevelopment of the Grade II listed building. It is now a Premier Inn hotel 🤔

According to The London Encyclopaedia, Snow Hill would have been a place to avoid in 18th century London, so it’s sordid reputation throughout history might explain why Squeers meets his potential customers there.

First, the steepness of the hill made it tempting for gangs of young men called “Mohocks” to seize elderly women and roll them to the bottom of the hill in barrels. Then, during the Jacobite rising of 1715, a group of Jacobites congregated at the bottom of Snow Hill to toast the memory of James. If any passers-by declined to join in the toast, they were stripped.

Snow Hill has a connection with a gruesome 17-century murder. Sarah Malcolm, a 22-year-old laundress, strangled an old woman for her money and cut the throat of a young girl who was evidently in the wrong place at the wrong time. Malcolm, who tried to lay the blame elsewhere, was found guilty of the murders and hanged. A copy of her confession was sold for twenty guineas and two days before her execution she was sketched by William Hogarth, a sketch that Horace Walpole bought for five pounds. Following her execution her body was taken to an undertaker’s premises in Show Hill where it could be viewed for a fee.

Snow Hill is where John Bunyandied in 1688, at the sign of the Star, a shop run by his grocer friend Mr Strudwich. Thomas Cromwell, the great-grandson of Oliver Cromwell, also had a grocer’s shop on Snow Hill. The hill was once the site of one of the City of London conduits and on days of great celebration it was made to run with red and white wine. This interesting tradition died out however, after the anniversary of the coronation of George I in 1727.

(information from thestreetnames website)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Publication Issues

By now, Charles Dickens was feeling the pressure, despite his initial bravado with Chapman and Hall. He wrote to John Forster in early March “Nickleby has scarcely advanced a jot!” and then on 8th “Nickleby does NOT go on well!”

On 15th April he wrote: “I couldn’t write a line until 3 o’clock and have 5 slips yet to finish and don’t know what to put in them for I have reached the point I meant to leave off with”.

How Charles Dickens solved this dilemma is … interesting! My lips are sealed, except to say that he employed an entertaining device, introducing a different voice … and we will do that too, with a new voice tomorrow.

And despite his misgivings, Charles Dickens did not miss any of the deadlines for Nicholas Nickelby.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Locations and People

These are all real towns and cities, which you can look up on the map. Even The George at Grantham which he calls “one of the best inns in England” was the inn which he and Hablot Knight Browne stayed in on their fact-finding expedition to the Yorkshire schools up North. Here it is:



wikicommons

The George at Grantham was built in 1780 and is an example of Georgian architecture of the time, including the lofty arched entryway for coaches that was used for such inns starting in 1760. The date carved on the keystone of the central entranceway is 1789.

Charles Dickens wrote to Catherine on 1st Feb 1838 that:

"We reached Grantham between 9 and 10 on Tuesday night, and found everything prepared for our reception in the very best Inn I have ever put up at."

The weather on their research trip was just as described here, the letter rebuking a boy for refusing to eat meat, and the lady's maid watching for an oncoming coach were all from life, according to his letter:

"a fastidious lady ... implored us to keep a sharp look-out at the coach windows as she expected her carriage was coming to meet her and she was afraid of missing it. We had many delightful vauntings of the same kind, and in the end it is scarcely necessary to say that the coach did not come, and a very dirty girl did."

He had also met a man who told him to have nothing to do with William Shaw … but more on that later.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

My favourite quotation from today’s chapter?

I enjoyed the part about Miss La Creevy’s portraits, and how she “put a fancy nose into a miniature of an ugly little boy”

and also the callous sheer indifference of Squeers, with his:

“I’m afraid of one of them boys falling off and then there’s twenty pound a year gone.”

Over to you, and remember our surprise tomorrow!

[Jenny]

I find the description of the guard to be quite funny with his " snuff is bad for the eyes, I've been told, but have had no problems" and then immediately pulling out glasses!
I feel like Ralph Nickleby is one who has no sympathy at all- He reminds me a bit of Mr Domby at the start of Domby and Son.
Nicholas I do rather like as he seams very optimistic and good natured.
I feel quite bad for him and the little boys- will Dotheboys hall break thier spirits?
On a final note- these boys must be extremely young, or perhaps malnourished for thier feet to be unable to reach anything to steady themselves on the coach!

[Paul]

Has anyone else felt that the name of Squeers' school seems to be a rather grim example of Dickensian naming? "Dotheboys" as in "Do the boys"? In a more modern novel, one might even cringe at the possibility of "doing the boys" extending beyond starvation, mistreatment, and beating into sexual assault! Does anyone know whether there were instances of this level of mistreatment in the Yorkshire residential schools in Dickens' time?

[Kelly]

Connie wrote: "Kelly wrote: "We're winding up our discussion of part I, but I did want to chime in with a few of my take-aways and questions from Chapter 4.

Sacaren's Head - I learned the meaning of the word 's..."

Connie, Thank you for answering my question about the horses falling down on purpose. I see now why they may have "slipped" just to get a rest! Thank you for the links; the information is very interesting.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Paul wrote: "Does anyone know whether there were instances of this level of mistreatment in the Yorkshire residential schools in Dickens' time?."

Yes, it is definitely no exaggeration, Paul! Please read the link I gave in message 236 about the formal investigations and prosecutions.

I hope everyone picked that one up.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Laura - I particularly liked that quotation too! Sometimes a chapter in Nicholas Nickleby seems to be one long sarcastic or scathing comment from start to finish 😆

If anyone not used to this type of humour suspects it is ridiculous, well then it is! Charles Dickens loved to be tongue-in-cheek, which is exactly what was happening with the passage about the horses on Snow Hill, as I said Kelly.

Kelly - Oh, yes the writhing is just how Charles Dickens sees very little boys, with their constant fidgeting!! Not likely to be anything to do with Uriah Heep, who was based on Hans Christian Andersen who had the medical condition dystonia (a neurological movement disorder characterised by continuous or intermittent muscle contractions which cause abnormal, often painful, repetitive movements in the whole body.)

I too loved your favourite quotation "Mr Squeers appeared ill at ease in his clothes, as as if he were in a perpetual state of astonishment at finding himself so respectable." 😂 And Jenny's choice too ""snuff is bad for the eyes, I've been told, but have had no problems" and then immediately pulling out glasses!"

Thank you both for pointing those out. 😂

[Beth]

I'm sure I've gone on about this in other threads, but I love Dickens' vivid physical descriptions, that so easily put me right in the middle of a scene even at a century or two, and a few thousand miles', distance from the action.

The little boys continue to be described in a humorous or even cartoony manner, as Nicholas and the cheerful stranger endeavor to keep them steady on the top of the coach. The description of the snow was quite beautifully done, too.

I'm not Browne's biggest fan but I do like his bustling illustration of Nicholas' leaving London.

I wonder if Dickens will spend any time with Kate as she also will heading out into the working world shortly. Or maybe we'll see letters from her, so the story can be firmly fixed on Nicholas' adventures.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Re. Lee's question and observation about Nicholas, and Sam's suggestion about how his look " . . . kept the old man down."

Several here have picked up that the relationship between Nicholas and his uncle Ralph is critically important, and also that Ralph Nickleby is a self-serving, acquisitive, greedy and scheming man, whereas Nicholas is generous, open-hearted, naive and honest.

Ralph knows that Nicholas is honourable, and briefly feels ashamed enough of himself to lower his eyes in the face of nobility and honesty, when he knows himself to be so manipulative, and actually plotting how to get rid of these 3 unwelcome dependants rather than trying to do his best for them, as he pretends to them. It doesn't make a difference in what he does, but we have already seen that Ralph is not immune to better feelings, in the case of Kate, where his demeanour momentarily softened, when he first met her.

Also, we see that Nicholas is no perfect angel! He has quite a bit of pride, and is a hot-headed youth, inclined to let his passions run away with him. So when you talk of Christian symbolism here, Sam, I do not believe this is either explicit or part of the subtext. Nicholas is not a Christ figure by any means, nor an angelic figure; he is merely our noble hero. Christians might well see these "emanation[s] from the warm young heart in his look and heart" as necessarily Christian attributes, but others would also approve of these virtues.

Yes, Lee - critics agree that Nicholas is a in many ways the young Charles Dickens himself. Remember how I headed this thread with "The Nickleby Portrait" and (said that it was him)? It has a double meaning. Have you seen a photo of his descendant (and new president of the Dickens Fellowship) Lucinda Hawksley? Look here - she has the same type of eyes I think, just a different colour. 😲

[Kelly]

Bionic Jean wrote: "My favourite quotation from today’s chapter?

I enjoyed the part about Miss La Creevy’s portraits, and how she “put a fancy nose into a miniature of an ugly little boy”

and also the callous sheer ..."

That was my favorite quotation as well. No need to worry about their health and very lives, only that 20 pounds will be lost!

The first scene of Chapter 5 brought some emotions to the forefront for me. Our oldest is in his final year of high school and will be heading off to college next year. I know I will share the same emotions as the Nicklebys in saying good-bye to their son. 😢

I looked at a Google map of Snow Hill using the street view images. The road does look steep and precarious, being quite narrow in some places!

[Claudia]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Paul wrote: "Does anyone know whether there were instances of this level of mistreatment in the Yorkshire residential schools in Dickens' time?."

Yes, it is definitely no exaggeration, Paul! Pleas..."

Oh yes, the Brontë sisters were schooled, after Mrs Brontë's death, in Cowan Bridge School, Lancashire, a school for middle-class clergy daughters, where conditions were rough and two of them, Elizabeth and Maria, fell ill and died subsequently at home. Rev. Patrick Brontë withdrew Charlotte and Emily from that school. It became an inspiration for Lowood in Jane Eyre, where Jane's best friend Helen Burns died.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Beth wrote: "I wonder if Dickens will spend any time with Kate as she also will heading out into the working world shortly. Or maybe we'll see letters from her, so the story can be firmly fixed on Nicholas' adventures ..."

Good thought Beth ... surely he must, since he has made such a point of her being his favourite perfect age of "just 17 years old".

Claudia - excellent example of how the real life tragedies in Yorkshire schools were commuted into fiction. Charles Dickens very much enjoyed Jane Eyre.

Kelly - That was a good idea!

Laura - "I think sarcasm can impress a more realized disgust with the reader" Indeed it can, and is used to great comic effect nowadays too.

[Lois]

After the strange behavior of Noggs at the end of Chapter 4, aren't we all wondering what's in the secret letter he handed to Nicholas in Chapter 5? I would be looking for the first chance to be alone and see what it said! Anyone else?

[Laura]

Lois wrote: "After the strange behavior of Noggs at the end of Chapter 4, aren't we all wondering what's in the secret letter he handed to Nicholas in Chapter 5? I would be looking for the first chance to be al..."

Yes, I'm very curious. I wouldn't be surprised if it's about something scandalous regarding his uncle.

[Chris]

My favorite quote of this chapter was the very first line. If tears dropped into a trunk were charms to preserve its owner from sorrow and misfortune, Nicholas Nickleby would have commenced his expedition under most happy circumstances
Unfortunately I don't think happy circumstances are in the near future for Nicholas. Which makes me think about that illustration of Mr. Squeers. He looks downright diabolical! The way he continues to treat the boys and his ability to turn on the charm or should I say swarm when he needs to, is like the two faces of evil.

I find Miss La Creevy a delightful character as many of people have already commented on. When we first met her, she was dressed in yellow. It could be that it meant she was a happy character full of sunshine, but I know in literature yellow often symbolizes illness or disease. I hope we see more of her but only in a positive way! My bias is showing.

[Chris]

After the strange behavior of Noggs at the end of Chapter 4, aren't we all wondering what's in the secret letter he handed to Nicholas in Chapter 5? I would be looking for the first chance to be alone and see what it said! Anyone else?

Oh yes! I thought it was the perfect "cliff hanger" for a serial story.

[Bridget]

Lois wrote: "After the strange behavior of Noggs at the end of Chapter 4, aren't we all wondering what's in the secret letter he handed to Nicholas in Chapter 5? I would be looking for the first chance to be al..."

Oh yes, I am wondering the same! Loved Phiz's illustration of Noggs handing the letter up to Nicholas. With Squeers off to the side holding his basket of business cards.

I'm wondering if Kate Nickleby is named after Catherine Dickens? Was that nickname ever used for Catherine, I can't remember?

I loved in this chapter how Dickens shows us Squeers through two different characters. First Kate, who we've already quoted. And the other is the kind gentleman who joins the coach at Islington.
When Squeers tells him Nickleby is an assistant at the school he glances "at Nicholas with a half smile, and more than half expression of surprise". It's that little word "surprise" that tells us most people encountering Squeers and Nickleby would think something is off with this pairing. This is genius writing. We, the audience, have surmised that Squeers is creepy and gross, and now we have confirmation (if we needed it :-)

I love all the memorable passages already quoted. I would add that in this chapter we get a vivid view of bustling London

"when porters were screwing out the last reluctant sixpences, itinerant newsmen making the last offer of a morning paper, and the horses giving the last impatient rattle to their harness"

It's just a small sample of many many such descriptions in this chapter, and one of the reasons I love reading Dickens!

[Lori]

Lois, that was my question as well. Noggs behavior was secretive yet he was handing this letter to Nicholas out in the open.

And we are left with quite a cliffhanger at the end of Ch 5 with the coach turning over and Nicholas hanging on and then being flung off onto the road.

Jean has piqued my curiosity about the new voice we will meet in tomorrow’s long chapter. (I haven’t read ahead, just peaked to see the length.)

[Paul]

Chris wrote: "I find Miss La Creevy a delightful character as many of people have already commented on."

More than a little coquettish and flirty, regardless of the age of the erstwhile recipient of her turned on charms, wouldn't you say? She seemed willing to have a little go at both Ralph and Nicholas in their turn.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Excellent and interesting observations all! Thank you 😊- and yes, Bridget at the time Charles Dickens always called his wife "Kate".

By the way everyone, tomorrow's chapter 6 will be split over 2 days. As Lori will have discovered, it is very long! It will (hopefully!) be obvious when you are reading it, where to pause and come and look here! 😁

[Sam]

In the spirit of the dramatic in Dickens, and as an example of why he was valued by filmmakers, let us picture the below line recited by perhaps, Bob Hoskins in one of his wonderful lower class accents, and picture the shot in close-up with Hoskins looking directly into the camera as he speaks the line, a smile on his face and all made up to best capture Dickens description Squeers' features.

Now, speak aloud Squeers' line and note your mouth's contortions and the lips stretching as you try to articulate the name and imagine
Hoskins' mouth doing the same and you will see why Dickens material was beloved by filmakers.



‘Oh!’ said the gentleman, glancing at the card, ‘You are the Mr Squeers mentioned here, I presume?’
‘Yes I am, sir,’ replied the worthy pedagogue; ‘Mr Wackford Squeers is my name, and I’m very far from being ashamed of it."

[Jim]

Over the course of several novels, I've noticed something rather special about the way Dickens develops (or more to the point, reveals) his characters. Minor characters he often sketches out quickly in wonderfully entertaining splashes of color, very like the sort of caricaturist one sometimes encounters hanging about tourist venues, executing quick cartoons of people, hoping to pick up a bit of money from folks who are charmed by their skill and ability to capture little visual quirks. These sketches are almost like "throwaway" items for Dickens and yet he often devoted a great deal of creativity toward them.
But his major characters reveal their personalities quite slowly. Only gradually do we begin to understand the depth of their character, their strengths, their vulnerabilities later on in the story. And thus we become attached to them, as hero, villain, enabler, friend or foe. Young Nicholas has begun to reveal a little bit about what manner of man he is (or will become). There are hints: On the one hand, he is by nature an optimist, prepared to reach out for new experiences; but he is no pushover; when he senses his sister potentially mistreated by Squeers, he is instantly prepared to deal with the matter. One senses that he will become a strong, resourceful person. Dickens will be sure to fill in the blanks and show Nicholas's colors, bit by bit.

[Lee]

Yes, I like the way you expressed this, Jim.. I’m really curious to see who Nicholas will become. And the “minor” characters…. we don’t really know who will transform into a pivotal character when Dickens is the author!

[Jim]

Indeed! For example, what about Newman Noggs? What sort of creature exists behind that peculiar appearance and behavior and will he play some pivotal role?