Dickensians! discussion
This topic is about
Nicholas Nickleby
Nicholas Nickleby - Group Read 6
>
Nicholas Nickleby: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 10
Jean wrote: In my opinion, Fanny and Tilda deserve each other!It's also not surprising that at 23-years-old, Fanny is still unmarried.
A quote from Mr Squeers:"Now I'll tell you what, Mrs Squeers. In this matter of having a teacher, I'll take my own way, if you please. A slave-driver in the West Indies is allowed a man under him, to see that his blacks don't run away or get up a rebellion; and I'll have a man under me to do the same with our blacks, till such time as little Wackford is able to take charge of the school."
An astonishingly concise depiction of Squeers' hatred, racism, and misogyny in a single sentence and a very clear statement that the students in the school are prisoners and slaves, held for a fee charged to their parents ... anything but actual students!
And as far as the misogyny is concerned, Squeers may appear to appreciate Mrs Squeers' forthrightness and abilities but when the rubber hits the road, it's his way or the highway. And note that there is NO question of Fanny's inheriting the school when she comes of age! LOL, belay that, clearly she already IS of age and is nothing more than a hapless spinster with no prospects for a happy life or marriage.
Another quote from Squeers:"If you dislike [Nickleby], my dear, I don't know anybody who can show dislike better than you." Compliments and kudos could hardly get more left handed than that, for goodness' sake!
"... and of course there's no occasion with him, to take the trouble to hide it."
Politeness and courtesy be damned. Squeers clearly sees Nickleby as a good deal less than a gentleman and an equal and little more than an indentured slave who is slightly older than the students and who has been afforded marginally more food, marginally more "comfortable" accommodation and a modicum of responsibility. All of that for a pittance of 5 pounds per annum!
Laura wrote: "It's also not surprising that at 23-years-old, Fanny is still unmarried."LOL, you can say that again. Dickens certainly didn't pull any punches when it came to depicting Fanny as a less than desirable prospect!
"She was not tall like her mother, but short like her father; from the former she inherited a voice of harsh quality; from the latter a remarkable expression of the right eye, something akin to having none at all."
Hardly a portrait of desirable feminine wiles and beauty which might sweep Nicholas off his feet!
I had to laugh when Miss Squeers tells her friend that “she was—not exactly engaged, but going to be—to a gentleman’s son—(none of your corn-factors, but a gentleman’s son of high descent)—who had come down as teacher to Dotheboys Hall … indeed, as Miss Squeers more than once hinted, induced, by the fame of her many charms, to seek her out, and woo and win her.”And this after she just met poor Nicholas so briefly....and was in love. I have a feeling he has no idea what he's in for!
Mrs. Squeers's "fondling" reminds me that it was Dickens who enriched the English language by giving us that delightful invention, the malapropism.Fanny's tea party resembled a scene from an Italian comic opera, with each of the characters speaking at cross purposes. And it becomes a complete fiasco (a handy term also adopted from the Italian)!
message 408:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 03, 2024 11:50AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Jim - Indeed it is very like a comic opera 😆 but I fear we do have to acknowledge that Richard Brinsley Sheridan coined the term first, since The Rivals was written in 1775.
Lois - "I have a feeling he has no idea what he's in for!"
Oh my goodness yes! It's no good just running away young Sir, and as Laura points out Fanny is getting a bit desperate ... and given that all the females agree that he has such "beautiful legs", 😆, somehow I don't think Nicholas is going to be allowed to get away scot free.
My favorite part of this chapter is the scene where Matilda gets Miss Squeers ready for her (supposed) grand debut as a fiancee:... her hair ... had more than a tinge of red, and she wore it in a crop--curled in five distinct rows, up to the very top of her head, and arranged dexterously over the doubtful eye; to say nothing of the blue sash which floated down her back, or the worked apron or the long gloves, or the green gauze scarf worn over one shoulder and under the other ... the friend arrived with a whity-brown parcel--flat and three-cornered--containing sundry small adornments ... the friend 'did' Miss Squeers's hair, throwing in some striking improvements in the way of ringlets down the neck ...It was almost impossible for me to picture this astonishing mishmash of layers and colors, but it still made me laugh. As the older and less attractive of the two young women, there's a smidge of an inclination to pity Miss Squeers, but she's so ridiculous it's hard to sustain it. I could see a comedic actress doing well in the role of Miss Squeers.
Beth wrote: "I could see a comedic actress doing well in the role of Miss Squeers. "Suggestions? Lucille Ball?
All of you are having too much fun with this chapter!Remember that chapter 8 ended with
Pain and fear, pain and fear for me, alive or dead. No hope, no hope.
While chapter 9 is a tension breaker, and we need one, it doesn’t relieve any tension for Nicholas. This event was not a party for him.
True. Nicholas now has to live with the thought that Miss Squeers is either in love with him or his worst enemy, both unpleasant additions to this unpleasant place. Every day brings another challenge or painful discovery.
Indeed Kathleen and Sue, I too could not help feeling uneasy with Nicholas. I don't trust those young people in this bleak and cold surroundings (nothing against Yorkshire, mind you). Miss Squeers may be, either way, a ticking bomb to Nicholas.
message 414:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 11:42AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Good point Kathleen - but ...
"All of you are having too much fun with this chapter!" No, I can't agree there! It did relieve tension for Nicholas too, briefly. He would not be human otherwise!
Charles Dickens's balance in this chapter is pretty nigh perfect, I think. Considering he was contracted to write a humorous novel, that is what most of the chapter does - although I pointed out the examination of class and so on. Beth N.'s quotation reminds us just how much of a shocking spectacle Fanny made (and Charles Dickens was aware of this, as he himself defiantly and surprisingly gloried in being a dandy!)
In point of fact all the way through the tea party, Charles Dickens tells us, Nicholas did enjoy himself! He had a whale of a time joining in the flirtations and trying to distract himself from his miserable life. It is only right at the end, where he admitted to himself that he "was glad ... to grasp at any relief from the sight of this dreadful place, or the presence of its vile master."
So for most of the chapter we are expected to thoroughly enjoy the comedy. We have not forgotten Smike, and all the other boys - how could we? But the skill of the author consists in alerting us to the reality, and make us want to know how this will continue, without us sinking into gloom all the time.
This is very new to Charles Dickens, writing a scene with a view to what will follow in a story of novel length, but he does make us think before he leaves that scene, as you Kathleen, Claudia and Sue all picked up.
message 415:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 04:52AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Kate sits for a portrait by her landlady two days after her brother’s departure. Miss La Creevy wants to paint her because of her sweet looks. “Kate, humour[s] her good-natured little friend” as she chats about art and her profession:
“Kate Nickleby sits for her Portrait - Harry Furniss - 1910”
The landlady discusses the difficulties in painting miniature portraits. Many of her customers complain that she either makes them too serious or too smirking. Miss La Creevy claims that sitters are usually one or the other, so you cannot help but paint them that way:
“Look at the Royal Academy! All those beautiful shiny portraits of gentlemen in black velvet waistcoats, with their fists doubled up on round tables, or marble slabs, are serious, you know; and all the ladies who are playing with little parasols, or little dogs, or little children—it’s the same rule in art, only varying the objects—are smirking.”
Serious expressions are reserved for people who are professionals (including actors but only sometimes). Smirking expressions are given to ladies and gentlemen who don’t care so much about looking clever. Kaye comments on how many officers Miss La Creevy paints, but she confides to Kate that they are not actually military gentleman. They are really just clerks who rent a military costume for the sitting.
“Kate Nickleby Sitting to Miss La Creevy - Phiz (Hablot K. Browne) - June 1838
Miss La Creevy asks when Kate expects to see her uncle. Kate is hoping he will come soon, for she finds the waiting difficult. Her landlady asks if he is rich, and Kate replies that that is what she has always heard. Miss La Creevy comments that he must be, or he wouldn’t be so brusque; only an independent man could afford to be so. Kate says she had heard he had been disappointed early in life, and that: “I should be sorry to think ill of him until I knew he deserved it.”
Miss La Creevy remarks how easy it would be for him to support Mrs. Nickleby and Kate until Kate married; perhaps with an allowance of just £100 a year. Kate responds with vigour:
“I don’t know what it would be to him … but it would be that to me I would rather die than take … A dependence upon him … would embitter my whole life. I should feel begging a far less degradation.”
Miss La Creevy is astonished, since Kate had not let her speak against her uncle. Kate is nonplussed, and says that she only means that she hopes he finds a position that will allow her to be with her mother. Their future fortunes will depend on Nicholas’s success.
At that very moment there is a rustling behind the screen and a knock at the wainscot [wooden panelling attached to the wall]. Ralph Nickleby enters. They suspect he has entered and overheard their conversation, because he comments that they were talking so loudly, that they failed to hear him. Also, his expression is malicious.
“When the man of business had a more than commonly vicious snarl lurking at his heart, he had a trick of almost concealing his eyes under their thick and protruding brows, for an instant, and then displaying them in their full keenness.”
He looks contemptuously at the miniature, and tells the landlady she had better finish her portrait that day, because tomorrow Kate will be engaged elsewhere. Ralph Nickleby asks if she has let the apartment yet, and she says no. He tells her that the family will not be there after this week, and will not be able to pay for the rooms, so she had better do it soon, and turning to Kate says:
“’Now, my dear, if you’re ready, we’ll lose no more time.’
With an assumption of kindness which sat worse upon him even than his usual manner, Mr. Ralph Nickleby motioned to the young lady to precede him” [up the stairs].“
Kate obediently goes up the stairs with her uncle to see Mrs. Nickleby. Ralph abruptly gets to the point, saying he has found a situation for Kate. Mrs. Nickleby keeps interrupting with a torrent of conversation, which she blames Kate for initiating. Ralph sneers and comments on the waste of words, saying that the family does have a habit of prattling unnecessarily.
Ralph has found Kate a position with a milliner and dressmaker. When Mrs. Nickleby seems dismayed, he tells her that in London such a career can lead to great wealth. He wishes to take Kate there now for an interview.
While Kate goes to get ready, Mrs. Nickleby chatters on sadly about all the furniture she once had that is now being sold for nothing, as if she she is hoping he will buy replacements for it. Ralph Nickleby becomes more and more irritated and wants to be off.
When they are walking to the dressmaker’s, Kate tells her uncle how grateful she is. When she starts crying, he tells her to stop, saying that he hates tears because they are affected, and that he hopes she will do her duty. When Kate asks if she will live with her mother, her uncle says she will work long hours … but that she may return home to her mother at night. Their home, he emphasises, will be more humble.
The dressmaker and milliners’ showrooms are on the first floor, at the top of a flight of stairs. As they wait among all the dresses on display, a gentleman puts his head round the door. He has very white teeth, and wears:
“a gorgeous morning gown, with a waistcoat and Turkish trousers of the same pattern, a pink silk neckerchief, and bright green slippers, and had a very copious watch-chain wound round his body. Moreover, he had whiskers and a moustache, both dyed black and gracefully curled.”
This is the dressmaker’s husband, who jokes with Ralph Nickleby, and evidently has done business with him in the past. His wife, Mrs Mantalini enters:
“a buxom person, handsomely dressed and rather good-looking, but much older than the gentleman in the Turkish trousers, whom she had wedded some six months before.”
Mr “Matalini”’s given name was Muntle, but his wife decided “Mantalini” sounded better for her business. He lives off her earnings, which he spends freely, and sometimes secretly steals her customers’ bills, which he passes to Ralph Nickleby at a discount, thereby pocketing the cash.
The couple flirt outrageously, to Ralph’s scorn, but Kate does not dare to look up; “for she felt that the eyes of the odious man in the dressing-gown were directed towards her.”
“He shall be horsewhipped till he cries out demnably” - C. S. Reinhart’s American Household Edition - 1875
Mrs. Mantalini tells Kate that twenty young women are employed there, but that her husband doesn’t do more than look at them and talk about them, and that he had never even been in the workroom. She tells Kate that they work for 9 a.m. – 9 p.m, with overtime sometimes, for which they get paid. Dinner and tea are provided. Kate will be paid between 5 and 7 shillings a week, depending on what she can do, and she is to begin on Monday.
“Kate walked sadly back to their lodgings in the Strand - Fred Barnard - 1875”
As they leave, Ralph tells Kate he will have to change their living arrangements, and that they will leave their current rooms on Saturday. He will allow them to live in an empty house he owns in the East End, a good way away, until he can let it.
“Coldly shaking his niece’s hand, Ralph left her at the top of Regent Street, and turned down a by-thoroughfare, intent on schemes of money-getting.”
message 416:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:18AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
message 417:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:36AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Real Life Characters
1. Mrs Nickleby
You may well have guessed (or know) this already, but the vain, comically illogical and ineffectual Mrs Nickleby is very much based on Charles Dickens’s own mother, Elizabeth Dickens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabe... (there are no spoilers in this excellent article; it is very interesting).
(Attribution - by John W Gilbert)
We also learnt in our group read that Elizabeth Dickens was later to be the model for Mrs Micawber in David Copperfield. In fact Charles Dickens was to incorporate aspects of her personality quite often in his work, but this was the first time, and (perhaps thankfully) she never recognised it! According to a letter Charles Dickens wrote to John Forster on 27th September 1842, she had asked: “if I really believed there ever was such a woman”.
This is the first time we have encountered Mrs Nickleby's extraordinary free-flowing monologues in full throttle, and they do provide us with much-needed comic relief. Time will tell if we think she has a better grasp of things than at first appears. For now, I intend to just go with the flow!
message 418:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:30AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
I was delighted (but not surprised) to learn that Miss La Creevy was
also based on a real person. The inspiration for her was a Rosa Emma Drummond, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Em... had painted a miniature engraved portrait of Charles Dickens on ivory. He had commissioned this so that he could give it to his fiancee, Catherine Hogarth as an engagement present. Like Miss Drummond, Miss La Creevy was a good-natured, middle-aged miniature painter, described by Charles Dickens as a “mincing young lady of fifty”.
(Nevertheless I do like Miss la Creevy very much, and find her genuinely kind and quite intelligent.)
message 419:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:38AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
We learned that Nicholas is working for £5 a year. Kate will be working initially for 5/- and there were 20 shillings in £1, so each month she will earn £1 i.e. £12 a year. This is better, but still a pittance: about £1,259.68 p.a. in today’s money.
Its quite clear that Ralph Nickleby wants to humiliate both his nephew and his niece. Kate, like Nicholas, has been educated commensurate with her age and class. She is a gentlewoman, and can speak French. A caring uncle would have found her a place as a governess or teacher. No wonder she feels ashamed and out of place in this lowly position. I’m also fearing for her with the lecherous leech, Mr Mantalini.
message 420:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:49AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
By the end of Ralph’s first visit, Mrs Nickleby had completely forgotten that it had been she who had encouraged her husband to speculate, against his better instincts. Now here we have another intriguing comment by Charles Dickens as narrator, on the fickleness of marital partners:
“What strange creatures we are! The slight bait so skilfully thrown out by Ralph, on their first interview, was dangling on the hook yet. At every small deprivation or discomfort which presented itself in the course of the four-and-twenty hours to remind her of her straitened and altered circumstances, peevish visions of her dower of one thousand pounds had arisen before Mrs. Nickleby’s mind, until, at last, she had come to persuade herself that of all her late husband’s creditors she was the worst used and the most to be pitied. And yet, she had loved him dearly for many years, and had no greater share of selfishness than is the usual lot of mortals. Such is the irritability of sudden poverty. A decent annuity would have restored her thoughts to their old train, at once.”
The new marriage we are presented with today, with the Mantalinis seems … most odd! We are told that the husband, (whose real name is Muntle), is out for what he can get, lazes around and pilfers from his hardworking wife-of-6-months. What does she gain in return? Extravagant flattery seems to be all ... perhaps this validates her self-image in some way, since she is older.
So far I see no genuine love here; merely a grotesque relationship.
message 421:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:54AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
In November 1837, Dickens agreed that the new work would be “of a similar character and of the same extent and contents in point of quantity as Pickwick itself.” Some of these episodes are certainly very Pickwickian, and completely different from the nightmarish world he was writing about in the mornings, with Oliver Twist.
message 422:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 04, 2024 05:57AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
“‘Mantalini!’ exclaimed his wife, in an awful voice.
‘My senses’ idol!’ said Mantalini.
‘Do you wish to break my heart?’
‘Not for twenty thousand hemispheres populated with—with—with little ballet-dancers,’ replied Mantalini in a poetical strain.“
So here we end installment 3. We will begin installment 4 with chapter 11 on Sunday. Enjoy the break, and I'll see you all in a new thread 😊
Bionic Jean wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "While chapter 9 is a tension breaker, and we need one, it doesn’t relieve any tension for Nicholas. This event was not a party for him ..."Good point Kathleen - but ...
"All of ..."
I agree that Chapter 9 was a perfect balance of levity and seriousness. Nicholas did have a good time and he seemed grateful for the distraction, even if he didn't have the utmost respect for his companions. In fact, at the end of the chapter he recognizes that he may have made some enemies. He remarks that "Heaven knows, he needed none. Well, it is just punishment for having forgotten, even for an hour, what is around me now." I appreciate that Dickens can insert the humorous scenes for us, and as it seems, for Nicholas, but always brings us back to the reality. If we don't laugh, we'll cry, right?
Bionic Jean wrote: "Favourite quotations? Once again, there are so many to choose from but perhaps for me it is the ridiculous image conjured up for the narrator by putting together two of Mrs Squeers’ insults of Nich..."Jean
Your comment on Dickens and his handling of the class system is spot on and we need to always keep how Dickens handles the system foremost in our minds. Many of his comments are subtle, quiet, and gentle in nature but that makes them all the more telling. He did not always use the Christmas sledgehammer in his writing.
As a mentioned earlier I too find the clearly disturbing chapters in Dotheboys Hall rather funny. Certainly, Dickens is the master of making us see the dark side of a person, situation, or event with a smile - albeit a jaundiced one - on our faces.
Chapter 10 seems to mirror previous chapters. Nicholas discovered that Dotheboys is not a hall, that Mrs Squeers is not mothering the pupils - or rather the inmates of that horrible place, and that Mr Squeers is not a teacher but a tyrant, and that none of them is honest. Rather oddly, their relationship seems to be genuine: just like Victor Hugo's Thenardiers. (Lori will most probably agree with me) They are "united in crime" and their relationship is very symbiotic even if Mr Squeer allows himself recreational moments at the pub.The Mantalini couple is not really Italian, there is a dubious feel about them and unless they prove to be different, we may worry for Kate. They are actually faking a loving relationship as Jean observed.
At the same time, Ralph is not really benevolent to his relatives. He is even harsh and doesn't comfort nor encourages them. On the contrary it would seem suspicious if he did.
He is sorting out the whole situation with providing them with a house but notoriously an empty one situated at the East End. He is taking steps to relocate them and dispose of the things which are the remains of happier times. They will be separated from Miss La Crevy who is their next friend, apparently a decent and genuine person who seems to see through people.
Bionic Jean wrote: "No wonder she [Kate] feels ashamed and out of place in this lowly position. I’m also fearing for her with the lecherous leech, Mr Mantalini..."I agree, Jean. It appears that both Nicholas and Kate are being placed in precarious positions regarding their respective employers. Will Miss Squeers get Nicholas in trouble with her parents if he rejects her? Will Mr. Mantalini put Kate in an uncompromising position in order to keep her job? I really feel for these two innocent children.
I thought Kate was going to become apprenticed to Mrs. Mantalini, but it appears the working conditions are more like a small-scale garment factory.
My favorite two quotes from this chapter were:
1) When Ralph railed against Katy for crying, he told her "Of all fruitless errands, sending a tear to look after a day that is gone is the most fruitless." I loved the wording of this phrase, and I hate to admit it, but Ralph is right!
2) Dickens described Ralph's heart as "rusting in its cell, beating only as a piece of cunning mechanism, and yielding no one throb of hope, or fear, or love, or care, for any living thing." He could have been describing Scrooge!
I liked getting back to Kate and Mrs. Nickelby to check in on their situation. I find it endearing that Kate has been there, what, a week (maybe a bit more) and Miss La Creevy already has herself a new customer. I, too, enjoy Miss La Creevy and find her genuine. Let me know if you think I'm off with my timeframe.My favorite passage in chapter 10, which I read twice I loved it so much, was the comparison that was made between Kate and Ralph. He compared their mannerisms, their hearts, and their minds, marking that they were complete opposites in all ways. I believe I'll go back and read it again!
My favorite quote from this chapter was the narrator’s description of the effect of Ralph’s comment after Mantalini spoke of the “little ballet-dancers” and his wife’s response.After Ralph speaks, Dickens interjects “If an iron door could be supposed to quarrel with its hinges, and to make a firm resolution to open with slow obstinacy, and grind them to powder in the process, it would emit a pleasanter sound in so doing than did these words in the rough and bitter voice in which they were uttered by Ralph.
Ralph is obviously not pleased with anyone and doesn’t care if they know it!
Kate Nickleby is one of my favourite characters in the novel. She was also a favourite of Charles Dickens. Dickens asked the famous British artist W. P. Frith to paint a picture of her for his personal enjoyment. Dolly Varden will make a guest appearance in the attachment.https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/...
Mark Bills Dickens and the Artists is a wonderful addition to our enjoyment of Dickens. For anyone who enjoys 19C British art and how it links to Dickens this is a great addition to your reading list. Frith did another painting of Kate Nickleby.https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/br...
Peter wrote: "Kate Nickleby is one of my favourite characters in the novel. She was also a favourite of Charles Dickens. Dickens asked the famous British artist W. P. Frith to paint a picture of her for his pers..."That's such an interesting article, Peter! When Kate Nickleby was told that she would be sewing from 9 am to 9 pm, I worried about her eyesight in the evening hours and hoped there were lots of windows in the workroom to help during the day.
Concerning Ralph's schemes for the placement of his brother's widow and children, it's clear that Dickens understood the workings of a miser's mind. Like most grasping individuals concerned only with the direct impact upon their own purse, Ralph is in fact a wasteful man. With a bit of forethought and a broader outlook, he could easily have realized a great deal more on their behalf than he did. By taking advantage of their education and upbringing, he could have placed his niece in a position as a governess and his nephew as a tutor, rendering both of them much more financially independent. Likewise, he has obliged the widow to sell off her furnishings for almost nothing, while placing her in an empty house! All three of them become "collateral damage" in Ralph's single-minded schemes.
Message 381. Ch 8. Connie wrote: "I was wondering what Mrs Squeer's medicine "brimstone and treacle" was. Brimstone is a type of sulfur, an anti-oxidant which can also cause an upset s..."Thank you Connie for the link about the "medical" uses of brimstone & treacle. I was surprised that there were ANY benefits to using these treatments, but obviously the side-effects were horrible.
"A reicut to Coore the Eche [A recipe to cure the ache]
A hanfull of box
A hanfull of wormwood
A hanfull of Isope [hissop]
A hanfull of Rewe [rue]
A pound of Lard
Boill it woll to gether
Strain it and take a litell brim stone
and store it to gether till its cold
take trekell [treacle] and brim stone
for five or six days drive it out well,
then take the ointment and nint your
self"
Taken from College Archives [COLL EST HL 1], dated 1693, a recipe for aches and pains
https://collections.etoncollege.com/a...
Peter wrote: "Kate Nickleby is one of my favourite characters in the novel. She was also a favourite of Charles Dickens. Dickens asked the famous British artist W. P. Frith to paint a picture of her for his pers..."I loved the oil painting commissioned by Charles Dickens. More so than in any of the black and white illustrations in Nicholas Nickleby, his conception of the woman's physical beauty is very striking! Dickens really was attracted to beautiful women!
(I was unable to copy that image but it can be seen in Peter's link.)
I have to say I love Dickens’ humor amidst the horror, that we see in many of his stories. Looking back to first seeing an adaptation of A Christmas Carol, it seems the humor makes it go down easy and help the heavy messages of social ills stick with us.And thank you Jean for the link about Dickens’ mother. I feel we owe a debt to her, for teaching Charles to read and to love reading! But it sounds like he had very good reason to hold a grudge against her.
Kate's new position makes me think of Gaskell’s novel Mary Barton, and the long and painful hours a seamstress job required. I am so worried for Kate.
I'm with Sue for favorite lines. Comparing Ralph's voice to a door quarrelling with its hinges is so Dickens--we can all hear that!
Kathleen C.
I wanted to take a short spell to just enjoy the reading each day solo and then catch up on all the comments today to insure I was catching the main points discussion and to see what I had missed. I am happy to report that most of what caught my interest was reported here.I am glad Jean elaborated on Dickens' portrait of Nicholas' mother. Although it was apparent in an earlier chapter, the realization that Dickens is not treating Mrs. Nickleby as a positive character really strikes home here, and for me it is slightly unsettling, and would have been a little risky for the author. I don't think readers like to think of bad mothers, nor do I think they look forward to the potential resolutions that must come once they are introduced. I think it is rare that they are done well and even the greatest authors when treating the subject often decentralize the issue, and here I am thinking of Hamlet. So with this chapter, I was struck at Dickens risk as an author, his young age to be tackling this theme, and his relative lack of writing experience prior. I will be attending how he handles Mrs. Nickleby through the rest of the novel.
My second thought is to Kate. We have mentioned the similarity to Mary Hogarth which I feel is manifested in her idealization, but there is a character she also reminds me of and that is Nancy from Oliver Twist, prior to her fall. There are a number of parallels between Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickleby and I can't help but think, even after accounting for my jaded modern perspective, that Dickens' readers must have seen the potential threats to Kate's innocence and future life being put forth by Dickens' in this early treatment of Kate. Would they have been connecting these to the threat of her being turned into prostitution? I do not know but there is argument for it.
Sam wrote: "I wanted to take a short spell to just enjoy the reading each day solo and then catch up on all the comments today to insure I was catching the main points discussion and to see what I had missed. ..."Hi Sam
Dickens certainly portrays Kate as an innocent. I agree with you that the reading audience would fear what could befall Kate in the hands of her uncle.
Certainly, since OT and NN were so closely linked in terms of publication dates the trials of Oliver, Nicholas, and Kate would be fresh in readers’ minds. When we add in the tragic events of Nancy’s life I too see the possibility of Kate falling into, or being forced into prostitution.
It's enough to make one shiver in anticipation of what may befall our innocent Kate.
Mod
Sorry to be late replying, Kelly ... it was a hectic prep day yesterday! 🙄
If you remember, chapter 10 begins "On the second morning after the departure of Nicholas for Yorkshire, Kate Nickleby sat in a very faded chair raised upon a very dusty throne in Miss La Creevy’s room"
and Ralph Nickleby comes in to tell her she must go with him right then for an interview. At the end of the chapter she is to begin work as a milliner's assistant the next day, so that is just three days, and earlier she and her mother were told they must be out by the end of the week.
Hope that helps 😊 And yes, with Charles Dickens, so often as in life, if you didn't laugh, you'd cry. I always believed that to be a Yorkshire expression!
message 439:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 06, 2024 04:24AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
I like this description very much! And can confirm that Dickens and the Artists by Mark Bills is a lovely oversize book. I put it straight on my Christmas list last year when I read Peter's excellent review, and Sant Claus did not disappoint me 😉
Thank you too for finding those very interesting links!
message 440:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 06, 2024 04:00AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Shirley and Sue - What great quotations! Sometimes I think we are so taken with one apt or witty turn of phrase that we are in danger of missing one in the very next sentence. That is the benefit of a slow read with friends, of course 😊
And I do agree, in many ways Ralph could be a prototype for Scrooge!
message 441:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 06, 2024 04:29AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Lee and Connie - Thank you for this! I always knew brimstone and treacle must be revolting of course, but now I can fully realise it 😝 And we must remember that this was not "golden syrup", or the "black treacle" (molasses) we now have, but something much more bitter and less pure.
message 442:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 06, 2024 04:44AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
I do wonder if Charles Dickens's tendency to be prolix, and certainly his way-out flights of fancy might partly be inherited from his mother - and also if we are to believe the portrayal of Mr Micawber in David Copperfield - from his procrastinating father 🤔
Everyone is at least partly a product of their parents, aren't they, and these two were not unintelligent. They also had virtually a child prodigy in his musical sister Fanny. (There's a post about her in the thread about his family.)
Oh yes, the humour definitely helps his attacks on various social ills go down a treat!
Mod
We can see in ch 10 that Kate has a good heart, and will follow her story with interest. Yes, I am positive that Dickens's readers would see the potential link with prostitution. There is more on that on my comment on ch 11, in the next thread.
message 444:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Nov 01, 2024 12:11PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
Link to new thread
Bionic Jean wrote: "Kelly wrote: "Kate has been there, what, a week (maybe a bit more) and Miss La Creevy already has herself a new customer. I, too, enjoy Miss La Creevy and find her genuine. Let me know if you think..."So it stands to reason that Miss La Creevy is a very good saleswoman, getting Kate to sit with her already. We've already given a good account of when she gave her card to Ralph, as well! Go, Miss La Creevy! I love this character.
Peter wrote: "Mark Bills Dickens and the Artists is a wonderful addition to our enjoyment of Dickens. For anyone who enjoys 19C British art and how it links to Dickens this is a great addition to..."I requested this book from my library. Thank you for the recommendation, Peter!
As of yesterday (I'll read more today), I've read into Chapt. 13. (I'm reading this in the Oxford Illustrated Dickens, this volume having been originally published by Oxford Univ. Press in 1950, though reprinted many times. Most of the BU library's copies of Dickens' works are part of this set, so it's usually the handiest choice.) As I've completed particular chapters, I've greatly enjoyed following the comments here, and appreciate the links, though I haven't checked them all out yet. Now, it's on to the next thread! :-)
message 448:
by
Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Oct 24, 2024 10:16AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Mod
We'll be interested to know your feelings about this first section, if you like. This is such a fast-paced novel, lots has happened already! We are now on chapter 26.
Bionic Jean wrote: "I advise not reading the introduction by Paul Schlicke in that edition, until afterwards.... We'll be interested to know your feelings about this first section, if you like."Thanks, Jean! Oh yes, I definitely know better than to read "introductions" before finishing a book (I learned my lesson the hard way!). This one is actually by a Dame Sybil Thorndyke; but I don't doubt that it warrants as much caution as Schlicke's.
My feelings about the first section, in regard to Dickens' artistry, skill at characterization, sound social messaging and comic genius are entirely positive (as I expected they would be!). And I agree with those who see in Ralph an adumbration of Scrooge.
Mod
Thanks for your thoughts.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Artful Dickens: The Tricks and Ploys of the Great Novelist (other topics)Dickens and the Artists (other topics)
Nicholas Nickleby (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
David Copperfield (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
John Mullan (other topics)Paul Schlicke (other topics)
Sybil Thorndike (other topics)
Paul Schlicke (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
More...
In my opinion, Fanny and Tilda deserve each other! 😂