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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2024 Booker Prize Longlist Discussion.
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Sam
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Aug 18, 2024 04:17AM
I am digressing a moment comment on the thoughts spawned after reading Jo's comment on having not yet read Woolf. How woderful to think of someone having the opportunity to discover Woolf for the first time. It made me think of what classics I have not yet read and had me speculating on the wonders awaiting me. It also brought thoughts of how many great books I have experienced through my association with this group. In doing that, I thought of Sybille Bedford's Jigsaw: An Unsentimental Education and how I never would have considered the book had it not been a group read here and how that book still remains in my thoughts years later when books I have read this year already need to be googled by me to recall what they were about. And I am not comparing Bedford to Woolf but making a connection because Anne Michaels mentioned Jigsaw as a must read Booker nominee from the same interviews mentioned by Jo and it is that connectedness or connectiveness that is one of the pleasures of book reading and discussion. I wish Jo luck in her pursuit of Woolf and do encourage her to continue at least with To the Lighthouse because that along with Mrs. Dalloway seem the pinnacles and despite their identifiable similarities l find one leaves me somewhat disturbed and the other completely pacified. Woolf btw, is an author that always seems to get better on the second and third time around so look forward to enjoying rereads.
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I have just started My Friends and it is my 4th book of the Longlist.
Jo wrote: "Hugh wrote: "Looking forward to My Friends most of the 5 I still have to read (2 or which are unlikely to arrive before September). Taking a break from the longlist for a couple of days to read nex..."Mrs. Dalloway is in my top 5 books of all time. I know many will say To the Lighthouse is better, but I prefer Mrs. Dalloway. So much of life is fit into that slim volume. Enjoy!
Gwendolyn wrote: "Jo wrote: "Hugh wrote: "Looking forward to My Friends most of the 5 I still have to read (2 or which are unlikely to arrive before September). Taking a break from the longlist for a couple of days ..."About halfway and wondering how it has taken me this long to pick up a VW novel. I am loving it, and doing a lot of rereading of sections.
Has anyone else found the books mentioned in the longlistee interviews inspiring?
I also have no recollection of the murder of the young policewoman or the event where it happened in My Friends. And I read real newspapers then - every day - NYTimes, Washington Post, and the local paper - when print was still the way to do news. It was not big news in the US.
No purely a uk story. But a very big one here. A police officer being shot is pretty rare and for it to be from an embassy made it a seminal event.
As did the fact that due to diplomatic immunity the people responsible could not be arrested and were free to leave the country (and had the UK decided to override diplomatic immunity, then chaos would have ensued eg UK diplomats in Libya would have been at risk). It was front page news on the NY Times at the time, although the NY Times in those days had about 20 front page stores, all with more details inside.
At the risk of sounding stupid, who was Lia in Held?I know Helena had Anna, Anna had Mara, Mara had Anna, but who was Lia? To me, she seemed to appear out of the blue. What did I miss?
I will answer on the Held thread.
I’ve now finished all the published books and so wait impatiently for the last two! I’ve found it a very enjoyable list so far - only This Strange Eventful History was a struggle to read for me.
Well I have now read 9 of the long listed books and there were two standouts for me, Enlightenment and Orbital...is the cosmos telling me something?? Tomorrow I will listen to James as I drive through the Monaro (setting for Stone Yard Devotional) on the way to the Aust ski fields. I love Everett so I have high hopes. This will be my first audiobook.
Otherwise I only have Safekeep, Creation Lake and Playground to go.
Random link - both François’s wife and best friend suffer from Lewy Body Dementia - the condition which Todd in Playground suffers from and which there is integral to the story.
Susan wrote: "Well I have now read 9 of the long listed books and there were two standouts for me, Enlightenment and Orbital...is the cosmos telling me something?? Tomorrow I will listen to James as I drive th..."
I like James a lot, and I enjoyed reading it, but for me, there are books that are head and shoulders better than James. Stone Yard Devotional is one, Held and Playground. Held, for me, is probably the best written, but Playground feels more like the winner to me. I'm rereading Wandering Stars now, and while I recognize the importance of the book, it just doesn't have the spark the way Held and Playground do for me. Even Stone Yard Devotional. I'm prejudiced, though, and I know it. I don't like rewritings of classics. I didn't like Wide Sargasso Sea, and I sort of resent James for tampering with Huck Finn, though I try not to let that resentment interfere with my thinking about the quality of the book. Everett is a wonderful writer, but he does seem to have trouble writing endings. I won't say the endings of Trees or James ruined the book for me, but they were kind of out there, especially Trees. Held, too, kind of unraveled at the end with the chaotic shifts in time and place, but I thought the rest of it was beautiful. But again, I'm prejudiced. I write poetry as well as prose, and for me, no one writing today writes poetic prose as well as Anne Michaels, though the prose in Held is self-conscious and it shouldn't be. I did think Fugitive Pieces was better than Held, but Held was better than The Winter Vault.
Jo wrote: "Gwendolyn wrote: "Jo wrote: "Hugh wrote: "Looking forward to My Friends most of the 5 I still have to read (2 or which are unlikely to arrive before September). Taking a break from the longlist for..."I didn't find them inspiring, but I did find them enlightening. I think it's a strong longlist, and it's going to be difficult for the judges to choose the shortlist.
Probably going to be the opposite side to many on here but I'm on my ninth book of the list and so far I'd say it is one of the poorest least inspiring lists of all time.There really hasn't been a stand out novel so far and many really don't seem to be good enough to be on the longlist and certainly not on a shortlist.
Obviously there are two not yet published which I probably won't get round to reading in time but, personally, I've little confidence that the Powers will improve my own experience as I've read four of his novels and disliked each and every one of them.
I really don't think it has been an especially inspiring year for fiction, though, of course, that is the great thing about books, they all have a place and all have a fan base. Just this year I'm not so far among them.
Here would have been the list if the judges stole our aggregate speculative vote. I have a preference for ours although I have much to read yet, and have enjoyed a lot of the judges picks.1
James
by Percival Everett
2
My Friends
by Hisham Matar
3
Clear
by Carys Davies
4
The Road to the Country
by Chigozie Obioma
5
Martyr!
by Kaveh Akbar
6
Praiseworthy
by Alexis Wright
7
Tremor
by Teju Cole
8
Blackouts
by Justin Torres
9
Wellness
by Nathan Hill
10
Long Island
by Colm Tóibín
11
Choice
by Neel Mukherjee
12
Orbital
by Samantha Harvey
13
Parade
by Rachel Cusk
Note the speculative list was strong for books by POC and we could easily argue for a complete POC shortlist from these thirteen. That would be a first.
Other than Praiseworthy which we have discussed more than enough - I am not sure that is that much stronger a list to be honest (especially as our top 2 both made the list) and one book on there for me was the least enjoyable thing I read all year.
I have liked or loved 8 of the 11 I've read to date, so for me, it's a strong and enjoyable list.
I have liked or loved 8 of the 11 I've read to date, so for me, it's a strong and enjoyable list.
Joy D wrote: "I have liked or loved 8 of the 11 I've read to date, so for me, it's a strong and enjoyable list."I agree Joy. I have read 9 and although I was not really a fan of Wandering Stars and Orbital is not my thing, I didn't dislike any of them, and I've really liked or loved several.
I won’t say as I know lots of the group loved it
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I won’t say as I know lots of the group loved it"A tease!
Cough *Blackouts* Cough
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Cough *Blackouts* Cough"Ha!!! I actively disliked it too, so misery loves company!
Probably the Torres, which drew mixed reactions elsewhere too. We all have different perspectives, which is good.The list Sam circulated (from Listopia) would I think have higher highs and lower lows than the actual longlist.
Yes Cusk always teeters between brilliance and self parody and Martyr! I think aimed admirably high but missed - both would I think provoke very different views.
As a related comment the Barker was Praiseworthy
Road To the Country
Night Alphabet
I Will Crash
Hard By A Great Forest
Glorious Exploits
Was much harder than last year.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "As a related comment the Barker was Praiseworthy
Road To the Country
Night Alphabet
I Will Crash
Hard By A Great Forest
Glorious Exploits
Was much harder than last year."
I feel like I should know this, but what is the Barker? Is it a kind of alternative Booker shortlist?
Yes one I made up last year as so many great books were missed from the Booker. Last year’s list was Cuddy, Hungry Ghost, Soldier Sailor, Losing The Plot, Corey Fah Does Social Mobility and For Thy Great Pain Have Mercy On My Little Pain so I was pleased with how well the books (two by members of this forum) went on to do.
Joy D wrote: "I have liked or loved 8 of the 11 I've read to date, so for me, it's a strong and enjoyable list."I also agree.
I have now re-read 10 of the 13 and it’s been a pleasant August re-reading the list and I have three books I enjoyed first time around to come.
Only Strange and Eventful History was I not looking forward to revisiting and even that had some good moments second time.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Joy D wrote: "I have liked or loved 8 of the 11 I've read to date, so for me, it's a strong and enjoyable list."I also agree.
I have now re-read 10 of the 13 and it’s been a pleasant August re-..."
Congratulations Gumble! such an achievement. what are your impressions? is there any standout novel? What is your shortlist?
I have wondered if the judges in formulating a list factor in losers as well as winners. IMO, a good longlist will have 2-3 potential contenders for the prize, 5-7 most agree are deserving of the shortlist, and perhaps 1 or 2 for everyone to dump on. Lists that have that breakdown are generally well-received and oddly enough, we seem to often have that situation though I don't like to think it was planned. While we argue for a list of the best possible books, when there are too many equal contenders, people may feel disappointed when their pick isn't chosen. I know I am reading too many longlists when I start thinking about their dynamics.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Yes one I made up last year as so many great books were missed from the Booker. Last year’s list was Cuddy, Hungry Ghost, Soldier Sailor, Losing The Plot, Corey Fah Does Social Mobility and For T..."
Ah, that’s a great list from last year. I like this year’s Barker list too. Might need to read those next after finishing the longlist.
Sam wrote: "I have wondered if the judges in formulating a list factor in losers as well as winners. IMO, a good longlist will have 2-3 potential contenders for the prize, 5-7 most agree are deserving of the s..."Sam, interesting theory. That would require the judges to purposefully leave off a few of their favorites in order to add a few titles they can easily drop at the shortlist stage. I would be surprised if there’s that much strategizing going on, but who knows?
Very much doubt juries deliberately pick books to be dumped on. Even the Booker with its history of publicity seeking and dubious choices. But the one balance - which could produce similar effects - is whether a jury goes for books where there is a consensus that it is longlist worthy, or allows choices that are passionately supported on a first read by one (or more judges) but not to the taste of others (or even one other).
I suspect the best lists do both. And those idiosyncratic picks may be the ones dumped on.
Although those picks may sometimes win as well if other judges see the genius on a re-read.
With 150 books to process, it would be easy to dismiss books - “it’s 900 pages long and I was lost on page 1 and it’s from a country on the other side of the world which past lists indicate isn’t even eligible”, or “this is ridiculous, all the characters are called Somebody McSomebodyface” for example. But given time for a considered re-read….
Or if that judge is particularly persuasive (“we signed an NDA promising it would win and she promised to make a star appearance at my personal book festival to deny the rumour that it is fan fiction”).
NB the one prize that was transparent about its voting method and the fact that not every judge could read all 400 books - the Best Translated Book Award - did iirc have a mixture of the books getting most votes overall and a judges-pick system.
Mod
Actually the group’s most dumped on books (I use the Paul ranking system as it particularly captures strong feelings) have never made the listHere is a rogue’s gallery of what were they thinking of …
How To Build A Boat (2023)
Booth (2022)
A Town Called Solace (2021)
Such A Fun Age (2020)
The Wall (2019)
Snap (2018)
History of Wolves (2017)
I cannot find a ranking from 2016
Books that were very low rated (and in some cases last on the Hugh method) that did make the list include Western Lane, Great Circle and New Wilderness
Mod
I suspect a lot depends on any lead given by the person chairing the jury.Of course they don't need to meet in person these days and email etc make communicating throughout the whole process much easier.
However, there are simply too many books put forward and it is impossible to read them all from first page to last. As Paul said if presented with a long novel and you're just not getting it and then you hear that a couple of the others aren't either you're probably going to give up even though it might turn out to be something you would really admire.
I guess there's a fair amount of compromise but if I was the chair I'd insist that each and every book that made the longlist had a genuine chance of winning. Ie would need the support of the majority of judges and not just one's personal favourite.
Mod
Hugh wrote: "The Paul system works best when all the books have roughly the same number of readers, which is rarely actually the case. So if a book that attracts strong opinions is published late or is difficul..."That's true. Although also work best when the readers have different numbers of books!
But generally I'd say some of the books that were clearly only one judge - hello Snap - make it.
Funnily enough the other classic drop off at shortlist book is the book that it feels the jury think they have to pick for reputation/other prizes (Rooney, Mirror and the Light).
Testaments despite being both a 'let's find space for it' book and also a 'seriously does anyone else think this should be on the list' book was an odd exception due the strong influence of the one judge. Fortunately there was an equally strong-willed judge that year.
BookerMT2 wrote: "if I was the chair I'd insist that each and every book that made the longlist had a genuine chance of winning. Ie would need the support of the majority of judges and not just one's personal favourite."Agree except they have only read them once - I don't think they re-read 30 or so books to whittle down to a shortlist. So one could see e.g. Milkman failing that test (one of my stylised examples below, the other being the P book) - where some may have dismissed on a first read.
Just to remind everyone, my speculation was very much a thought experiment, mainly something to do while waiting for the shortlist, so liken the finding of patterns to the finding of animal shapes in clouds which I consider fun and playful, till one starts believing they are true. I see no evidence that any judge or group of judges has actively conspired to manipulate the order of a list. But I find it fun to speculate. We have members within our group that have served as judges for other awards and only they could answer whether their voting was done with an eye to how the ordering would be perceived and what repercussions would follow. As Hugh mentioned, books we tend to consider lesser often make the shortlist and even if it is not the bottommost pick, it seems the judges could have made a better choice. My fantasy is that they are just starting the process anew. The overall selection will look a lot better when measured against a clearly inferior book.
But as I said this is just fun speculation I thought we might engage in. I do see ramifications when the books chosen do not reflect our general expectation of what we consider good as compared to mediocre or bad. The perfect example is in the Atwood shared win in 2019. As mentioned, I think most of us felt Girl, Woman, Other by Bernardine Evaristo was the best book on that year's shortlist. I also think the majority would have called The Testaments the worst. I remember it our discussion whether to give the prize to the best book or the celebrity established author was mentioned with most thinking it should go to the best book. The judges called a tie and that seemed to put the focus on the difference in quality between the two books even more. Their was quite a negative reaction, so I think the awarding of the prize to an obviously lesser book does not agree with the fans.
Getting away from the conspiracy theory, I am curious about the role and effect of lobbying in the Booker. In reading about other awards, their has been evidence of issues with lobbying, most recently with the Hugo award but also the Nobel and Golden Globes have had press on this. I wonder how lobbying influences the Booker judges? And I wonder if present, what source produces the lobbyers? Would a source seek to promote or squelch a book based on its content?
Paul wrote: "BookerMT2 wrote: "if I was the chair I'd insist that each and every book that made the longlist had a genuine chance of winning. Ie would need the support of the majority of judges and not just one..."They only read them once??? I thought they reread the 13 before deciding on a shortlist and then reread the six before choosing a winner.
Read them once before deciding on a longlist. Which is what we were discussing I think. Does a book need to have support as a potential winner (or at least shortlistee) from a majority of judges to make the longlist - or should juries allow a book on the longlist that 1-2 judges are passionate about, but others didn't like first time around.On lobbying, I don't particularly think the Booker judges are that lobbyable. There certainly aren't the viral marketing campaigns one gets in the Oscars - but that's to a wide audience of course.
On the other hand give them a secret embargoed copy of a book, couriered to their house in return for a signed NDA, and the (joint) prize is yours.
Paul wrote: "Read them once before deciding on a longlist. Which is what we were discussing I think. Does a book need to have support as a potential winner (or at least shortlistee) from a majority of judges to..."Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. But at least here, all the judges read all the submitted books. My understanding is that for many (most?) other prizes, the books are divided among the judges.
The only person I know of that allegedly attempted to lobby the judges (in his case via third parties) was Salman Rushdie in 2019.
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The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Girl, Woman, Other (other topics)The Testaments (other topics)
Held (other topics)
Jigsaw: An Unsentimental Education (other topics)
Paul Takes the Form of a Mortal Girl (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Bernardine Evaristo (other topics)Tommy Orange (other topics)
Alejandro Kasuga (other topics)
Anne Michaels (other topics)
Rachel Kushner (other topics)
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