"Lord of the Flies" by William Golding (BR)

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Buddy read for 2024 Forum on Formative Spec-Fic.

Paired with The Wild Robot - discussion (August)

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[Cheryl]

Ooh... Get the audio read by the author if you can!

I never tire of discussing this book. Certain unanswerable questions regularly come up. (view spoiler)[ Would any group of boys turn savage like this; are they typical? Does a charismatic leader make a difference? Does the fact that they're British boarding school boys make a difference? What if they were girls, or coed? What if they were older, or of more divergent ages? What if they were of different 'classes' or backgrounds? What if there were more, or fewer, of them? (hide spoiler)]

I loved the audio narrated by the author, in which he simply admits that he wrote of these boys because he was more familiar with them. He didn't write of girls, because he doesn't know them.

For a fun and surprisingly thought-provoking take on a castaway situation with a group of teen girls, I recommend Beauty Queens.

[Cynda]

Thanks Cheryl. I have noted the book as as possibility for a readathon selection.

[Cynda]

I read this novel in 2022. I have two brothers and a son and a slew of boy cousins and have known quite a few neighborhood boys. While I do not have the insight to have written the novel, I do know enough to see some truth here of how the boys I knew operated.

This goes far beyond mechanization or bullying. This was power grabbing. This is political. Two groups of boys--two political parties--with two clearly different agendas. And someone to pick on as scape goat. This novel describes some global truth of politics.

[a.g.e. montagner]

In my enthusiasm over joining too many group reads, this is the book that will probably be postponed to a later date. I'll keep an eye on this discussion, though!

[DivaDiane]

There was an article in the Guardian a few years back about the real life story of boys shipwrecked and alone for over a year on a deserted island in the South Sea:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...

Their story is very different to the one of Lord of the Flies. And is one that inspires hope, actually!

[Olga]

WOW! I had no idea about that! Such a heartwarming story! Thanks for sharing, Diane!

[Cheryl]

I'm going to read the book by the author of that article, Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman. Thank you!

[Cynda]

And the better truths are the ones where humans assist each other. I had spiritual teacher who used to say the Love was the usual way of things.

[Shomeret]

Cheryl wrote: "I'm going to read the book by the author of that article, Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman. Thank you!"

I also put Humankind: A Hopeful History on hold.

[Sue]

I love this book
I loved it when I read it at age 13
I loved it when I read for my College studies
and I loved it when I did an essay on it for my masters

[Cheryl]

I wonder if the book, because so many know the idea even if they haven't read it, didn't have a negative affect on the way we raise our boys, though. Do we subconsciously assume that Golding is an experienced educator or psychologist. Or that he is right about all boys; that there's no getting away from bullies and power struggles, etc.?

Remember that these were British schoolboys (boarders, iirc). Does Golding's assessment of them have any relevance to, say, the children of Chinese peasants? Or even American children? Or British school*girls*?

[Ambereyes]

Cynda wrote: "This goes far beyond mechanization or bullying. This was power grabbing. This is political. Two groups of boys--two political parties--with two clearly different agendas. And someone to pick on as scape goat. This novel describes some global truth of politics."

I read the book when I was 12. But even at that tender age it was clear to me that it was an obvious dystopia.
It is a parody of tyranny. To keep his poor subjects in total submission, a successful tyrant needs an external enemy as a source of fear. He must intimidate his subjects with propaganda, assuring them that their great country is surrounded by enemies on all sides and that only he can properly protect them. Therefore, they must blindly obey him and follow his orders.
(view spoiler)[ In Lord of the Flies, this role of external enemy is played by an imaginary monster called 'The Beast' and the body of a dead pilot. (view spoiler)[
But a successful tyrant also needs internal enemies. Firstly, they help to unite society. After all, nothing unites an aggressive society (and a society under the rule of a tyrant is bound to become aggressive) like the outcasts, who can be scapegoated and therefore tormented by everyone. Also, the outcast group can always be blamed for any problems that arise in a totalitarian society.
(view spoiler)[ In Lord of the Flies, Piggy and Ralph fulfil this role of outcasts. (view spoiler)[

Cheryl wrote: "Remember that these were British schoolboys (boarders, iirc). Does Golding's assessment of them have any relevance to, say, the children of Chinese peasants? Or even American children? Or British school*girls?"

Even before I read Golding's book, I read a book by some author (I can't remember his name) about a group of children who also ended up on a deserted island off the coast of India.
A school had sent their best students on a sea trip to visit some islands and experience the wildlife. There were girls and boys and they had Indian names. And this was obviously after India had already gained independence from the British Empire, so they weren't British in any sense of the word.
So the children set off on a journey, but their ship was wrecked. Several boats, with only the children in them, were thrown ashore on the large island. At first the children behaved very sensibly. They built huts to shelter from the rain, and the older children looked after the younger ones. There was one girl (I think her name was Gita) who was very good at biology. She told the other children which plants were good for food, and that helped them to survive.
But then things changed. A fat boy (I think his name was Selim, but I could be wrong) and his friends found an abandoned fort on an island. They debated whether it had once belonged to the Portuguese or the Malayan pirates, but never came to a conclusion. There was a treasure trove of jewellery and weapons - a few muskets and rusty sabres. With these weapons, Selim and his friends began to torment the other children. They took away their food and made them do daily chores, and then Selim went completely mad and declared himself Sultan of the island. He also gave out fancy titles to his friends.
But his reign did not last long. Selim's younger sister, whom he made a princess, stole their weapons at night and gave them to his more sensible children, who plotted a rebellion against him. When Selim was deposed from his throne and promised to be a good boy, it turned out that he didn't have any powder or bullets for those muskets, and was just lying to everyone.
All the while, a boy was trying to fix a broken radio that the children had. Shortly after Selim was overthrown, he finally managed to fix it, and the children were able to use the radio to talk to the adults, who promised to send helicopters to pick them up. So this adventure ended very well.
But this book is probably a remake of Lord of the Flies, as it was written later. Also, the children behaved reasonably at first, and it was only the discovery of the weapons cache that changed the behaviour of some of them. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Ambereyes]

But a successful tyrant also needs internal enemies. Firstly, they help to unite society. After all, nothing unites an aggressive society (and a society under the rule of a tyrant is bound to become aggressive) like the outcasts, who can be poisoned. Also, the outcast group can always be blamed for any problems that arise in a totalitarian society.
(view spoiler)[In Lord of the Flies, Piggy and Ralph fulfil this role of outcasts.(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Ambereyes]

Cheryl wrote: "Remember that these were British schoolboys (boarders, iirc). Does Golding's assessment of them have any relevance to, say, the children of Chinese peasants? Or even American children? Or British school*girls*?"

Even before I read Golding's book, I read a book by some author (I can't remember his name) about a group of children who also ended up on a deserted island off the coast of India.
A school had sent their best students to visit some islands and experience the wildlife. There were girls and boys and they had Indian names. And this was obviously after India had gained the independence from the British Empire, so they weren't British in any sense of the word.
So the children set off on a journey, but their ship was wrecked. Several boats, with only the children in them, were washed ashore on the island. At first the children behaved very sensibly. They built huts to shelter from the rain, and the older children looked after the younger ones. There was one girl (I think her name was Gita) who was very good at biology. She told the other children which plants were good for food, and that helped them to survive.

[Ambereyes]

But then things changed. A fat boy (I think his name was Selim, but I could be wrong) and his friends found an abandoned fort on an island. They debated whether it had belonged to the Portuguese or Malayan pirates, but never came to a conclusion. There was a treasure trove of jewellery and weapons - a few muskets and rusty sabres.
With these weapons, Selim and his friends began to torment the other children. They took away their food and made them do daily chores, and then Selim went completely mad and declared himself Sultan of the island. He also bestowed fancy titles on his friends.
But his reign did not last long. Selim's younger sister, whom he made a princess, stole their weapons at night and gave them to his more sensible children, who plotted a rebellion against him. When Selim was deposed from his throne and promised to be a good boy, it turned out that he didn't have any powder or bullets for those muskets and was just lying to everyone.
All the while, a boy was trying to fix a broken radio that the children had. Shortly after Selim was overthrown, he finally managed to fix it, and the children were able to use the radio to talk to the adults, who promised to send helicopters to pick them up. So it ended well.

[Ambereyes]

But this book is probably a remake of Lord of the Flies, as it was written later. Also, the children behaved reasonably at first, and it was only the discovery of the weapons cache that changed the behaviour of some of them.

[Colin]

To me, much of the power of Lord of the Flies lies in its being a parable of human behavior and history. The book holds up a mirror to us as readers, and what we see in that mirror isn't pretty. The book also holds its knockout punch (for me anyway) until the very end, even to the last clause. (view spoiler)[ The naval officer in his uniform with his weapon who rescues Ralph rests his eyes on the "trim cruiser" in the distance. The adults are at war. The only difference is the neat uniform and the high-powered weaponry. (hide spoiler)]

[Ambereyes]

Colin wrote: "To me, much of the power of Lord of the Flies lies in its being a parable of human behavior and history. The book holds up a mirror to us as readers, and what we see in that mirror isn't pretty. Th..."

I hadn't noticed this parallel between children and the military before. It's very interesting.

[Piezke]

It's one of those books that I avoided in school (I actually avoided them all) and the only thing I remembered from both movie versions was Piggy's death. Then I consciously read it as an adult and found myself a relatable character in Simon. I love the composition of the cast, from the obvious pairings to the less obvious. Simon has his bizarro-counterpart in Roger. Both boys are lone wolfs, but while Simon uses his freedom to emphatically observe, Roger uses his to inflict pain. He is a de Sade character.

Awesome novel. The only thing I disliked was the hamfisted prose at the end when Golding had to do the Heart of Darkness reference. There is a newer German translation of it that I haven't read, but heared good things about.

[Cheryl]

Ambereyes, if you remember the name of the book with Gita and Selim (?) please let us know. I'd like to investigate it.

I'm still not convinced, Colin, that these kids "mirror society" because that implies a universality of behavior that I don't judge accurate.

[Ambereyes]

Cheryl wrote: "Ambereyes, if you remember the name of the book with Gita and Selim (?) please let us know. I'd like to investigate it. "

Of course I'll try. The problem is that I read this book when I was 8 or 9 years old. My classmate gave it to me to read for a few days. It was a paperback, very old and shabby looking.
As I recall, it definitely had the word 'Robinsons' in the title. Maybe 'The Little Robinsons' or something like that.
I think the author was Indian, or had lived in India for some time, as he or she knew the country's wildlife well.

[Cheryl]

Thanks!

[Cheryl]

So, this book is fiction, from a man with issues. Very Hobbesian. Turns out there was a real life story of boys lost on an island that belies the savagery.

Read Humankind: A Hopeful History for a more nuanced and accurate view of human nature. Jean Jacques Rousseau was actually more correct about what we were like, and what we're capable of, than Hobbes or Golding.