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Oliver Twist or, The Parish Boys Progress
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Oliver Twist - Group Read 5 > Oliver Twist: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 8

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message 351: by Beth (last edited May 08, 2023 07:11PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Just a weensy behind, having just finished Ch. 5, but I'll be caught up tomorrow during the group's free day. :)

Thanks Jean, Sue and Daniela for the information on various professional mourners in messages 289, 302, and 313. Reading Jean's description I could see the ideal that the mute represented--a neutral party, not attached to the family, the clergy or the various business entities associated with death and burial. Maybe standing in for the community or town, seeing one of their own off. But of course, Oliver's being in the employ of the coffin maker's puts the lie to that fantasy right away. And Jean's descriptions of a mute treating his role rather frivolously and not keeping up appearances in front of the bereaved shows how, like many things, it was subject to faulty humanity.

The scene in the impoverished household neatly treads the line between melodrama and pathos. I really felt for this family, especially the father who was jailed for begging to try to keep his wife alive.

The neighborhood the family lives in is vividly depicted in its squalor. You know things are bad when the rats are starving to death.


message 352: by Lee (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 504 comments Daniela wrote: "I don't know if you are familiar with the Italian tradition of the "prefiche".

From Italian Wikipedia:
"The "prefiche" (wailers) were women paid to participate in funerals in ancient Rome: during ..."

Thank you so much, Daniela for adding the customs of Italy!


message 353: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 194 comments When one is faced with such a tale, namely that of a poor orphan who is continually abused and neglected, it's necessary to somehow provoke a crisis, some opportunity to change the narrative; otherwise it is certain to become tiresomely predictable and bleak. Dickens does this twice, first when Oliver asks for more food and again in Chapter six when, aggravated beyond endurance, he suddenly fights back. In both cases, he will face even more severe treatment, since his actions challenge the status quo and cannot be tolerated by those in power. His rebellion may not improve his lot but from a narrative standpoint it adds a necessary new dimension to the structure of the novel.
I'm reminded of a similar turning point in Brontë's Jane Eyre when Jane as a child revolts against the abuse she suffered at the hands of her aunt's pampered children.


message 354: by Lee (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 504 comments I wonder, Jim if this in most cases changes an indifferent character into a hero or a heroine? Excellent point.


message 355: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 194 comments Indeed, Lee: the question is whether or not "to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" .....


Shirley (stampartiste) | 480 comments Can you answer a question for me, Jean? It's not an important part of the story, but it does have me wondering. When Oliver first set eyes on Noah Claypole, he immediately recognized him as a charity-boy. Then, at the end of Chapter 6, when Noah runs to get Mr. Bumble, Dickens states that the people were astonished to see a "charity-boy tearing through the streets pell-mell, with no cap on his head,..."

We know that workhouse children wore identifying calico clothes. Did charity children have to wear a similarly identifying uniform so they could be immediately identified and kept in their place? It's not something I've seen discussed and it just leaves me wondering if all poor children in mid-century England had to proclaim their status in society by the clothes they wore?

This story is really making me appreciate and revere men like Thomas Barnardo (Messages 148-149) who spent their lives trying to elevate these poor, unloved, unwanted children out of a life of poverty.


message 357: by Beth (last edited May 09, 2023 08:55AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments I can answer that, Shirley, though not in a lot of detail. A footnote in my Norton Critical edition says a charity boy is: "A student at a free charity school for poor children; such children wore uniforms."


Shirley (stampartiste) | 480 comments Thank you, Beth! So they *did* wear uniforms. This may have been brought up in Dombey and Son, but I just don’t remember it. I have two editions of Oliver Twist: The first one I bought had no notes or illustrations, the second only had Cruikshank’s illustrations (no notes). I probably should have bought the Norton edition, as I enjoyed this edition of Great Expectations.

Again, thank you, Beth, for your reply!


message 359: by Greg (new) - rated it 4 stars

Greg | 201 comments Of course some of the astonishment might also have been because of the knife pressed against his face during the mad run! :)


message 360: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 09, 2023 09:57AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Can you answer a question for me, Jean? ... Did charity children have to wear a similarly identifying uniform so they could be immediately identified and kept in their place?..."

Yes, Beth's right (great editions!) Do you remember that LINK HERE I mentioned Uriah Heep and also Biler, who were both products of a charity school? Here is Biler in his uniform (look at his expression, having to wear it!



Rob the Grinder - Kyd - 1920

The description of the Charitable Grinders School uniform is in chapter 5 of Dombey and Son:

“a nice, warm, blue baize tailed coat and cap, turned up with orange coloured binding; red worsted stockings; and very strong leather small-clothes”

His mother was told about the:

“Charitable Grinders; where a wholesome education is bestowed on the scholars, and dress and badge is also provided for them. His number will be one hundred and forty-seven."

So yes Shirley, you're absolutely right, these pupils were "kept in their place" and Dickens delivers a long invective against such places in Dombey and Son.

(Sorry for the slight delay - it took me a while to locate the passage!)


message 361: by Beth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments One possible downside of the Norton Critical Edition of OT is that it has very few of Cruikshank's illustrations. (I've previously mentioned this in message 47.) Considering that the supplementary material is nearly as long as the novel, I wonder why the rest were omitted.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 480 comments Greg wrote: "Of course some of the astonishment might also have been because of the knife pressed against his face during the mad run! :)"

Yes, I'm sure a charity boy running around with a knife pressed against his face would cause some astonishment! 😂. I just thought it was strange that Dickens mentioned the cap first, as though that were of more importance than the knife. Maybe I'm reading too much into this passage.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 480 comments Thank you so much for all of the additional information on charity schools and their pupils, Jean! I did read your message 285 about charity schools, but I didn't see anything about uniforms. But now that you've brought it all back to mind from Dombey and Son, I do remember it. So yes, they were readily identifiable, and that's so sad. The schools tried to do good work. They attempted to elevate the students academically, thus financially; they just failed to elevate their self-esteem, it would appear.

That illustration of Rob the Grinder! A picture is worth a thousand words! They were granted an education but gave up anonymity in return.

I just love Dickens!


Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Thank you, Beth! So they *did* wear uniforms. This may have been brought up in Dombey and Son, but I just don’t remember it. I have two editions of Oliver Twist: The first one I bought..."

Shirley, I remember Polly Toodles’ son Biler wore a uniform when he was sent to the charity school (via Dombey’s so called charity). It was called the Charitable Grinders School and it gave him one of his nicknames - Rob the Grinder. He was beaten and abused there if I remember correctly.


message 365: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 09, 2023 11:14AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Shirley - Yes, I just referred to it, hoping that the description would be engraved on everyone's memory 😂 just as his portrayal of Uriah Heep is!

Please everyone, as I keep saying, take care with annotated editions unless you are very familiar with the story. Mine has no notes either Shirley, nor illustrations; it's just the plain text. But I will provide lots of both!

Lori - please scroll back a bit (crossposted?)... But oh yes, there may have been good ones as you suggest Shirley, and one certainly hope so! But the ones in Charles Dickens's writing are dens of vice and iniquity, run by hypocrites 🙄


message 366: by Karin (last edited May 09, 2023 11:05AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Karin Bionic Jean wrote: "I love how Lori and Lee (and Paul, adding to the Dombey and Son read) have all taken Oliver Twist with you when you are away from home! We'll convert the world to reading ..."

I didn't know that! I'm from coastal BC and spent a number of years in Vancouver in my early adulthood. There is a significant "East Indian" (Canadian for people from India) population in BC and there has been for some generations. In fact, there are a number of Indian surnames in the top 100 names for Vancouver. Between living there and various other places I've met and known a plethora of people from different parts of India as well as different religions, etc.

Where I live now people know a lot less about India (or a number of other places, even Canada) so I have gotten into the habit of educating people :)

However, I eschewed literary analysis in university and did my mandatory two semesters of English (we had a choice of three classes during first year) studying poetry (20th C) and drama and didn't mind analysing those--I used to write a plethora of poetry when I was a teen and was a theatre nerd, but mostly 20th century and not so much older things. I mainly read novels for the story; the learning, etc is a side effect, although I am interested in that. But most of the time I don't care as much about what is symbolic. I do love the way Dickens chose names, though, and that they are all real surnames no matter how odd they sound to us in North America.

This is the largest online book discussion I've participated in and it's a new experience for me.


Bridget | 1004 comments Greg wrote: "Of course some of the astonishment might also have been because of the knife pressed against his face during the mad run! :)"

That scene jumped out to me too, Greg! I didn't know whether to laugh, or be horrified that someone would run with a knife held to their eye. Reminded me of my mother telling me to "walk with scissors".

I'm having fun with the dialects Dickens is using for some of these characters. Like Mr. Bumble always says "porochial" when I think he means "parochial", which of course shows exactly how "parochial" Mr. Bumble is.

At the end of Chapter 6, I particularly liked Noah Claypole suggesting they call the "millingtary" to deal with Oliver, which I assume means "the military". Its a small thing, but I love the way Dickens uses dialect to add so much color to these characters. It's one of my favorite things about Dickens, how he makes characters speak as they normally would. I think he had a marvelous ear for picking up language that way as he walked through London.


message 368: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 09, 2023 12:05PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Karin wrote: "This is the largest online book discussion I've participated in and it's a new experience for me ..."

Yes, I've not come across any group who read and discuss one chapter a day, and as thoroughly as we do. We do try to stay focused, (as you may have noticed, and is why I apologised to the group for for mentioning something not directly pertinent). We need to stay on topic, as many of us read every single post in the group read threads, to get the most out of the novel, and it can easily become overwhelming.

You'll soon get the hang of it Karin. The tips LINK HERE might help 😊

Actually Charles Dickens invented quite a lot of his characters' names, and some, like "Scrooge", "Pickwick", and "Pecksniff" have got into the English language. "Pickwickian syndrome" now describes a medical condition!


message 369: by Lee (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 504 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "We haven’t had much description at all so far, except for the area where the woman who had died lived. And here’s another powerful couple of sentences that made me sit up:

“It was a cold, dark nig..."

I am reading the 1838 edition by Penguin, and I do not find those lines anywhere in Ch 6. Is this an example of Dickens adding to the text?


message 370: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 09, 2023 02:51PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Yes! Or rather ... he added bits and moved paragraphs around, and put the chapter divisions in a different place. Well spotted!

In the edition Gutenberg are using, it comes near the end of chapter 7, so you will probably read it tomorrow (sorry!) That part has a lot of atmosphere 😊


message 371: by Beth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Ch. 6: not a lot for me to add here, since the chapter itself was just a few pages long... we see Oliver's real status in the household despite being "promoted to the black stick and hat-band." A relatively small act of rebellion is punished many-fold, by three people larger than Oliver is.

Oliver's misery continues to vie with Oliver as the main character of the story, and this chapter didn't provide much of relief from it.


Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Shirley - Yes, I just referred to it, hoping that the description would be engraved on everyone's memory 😂 just as his portrayal of Uriah Heep is!

Please everyone, as I keep saying, take care with..."


Yes, oops, sorry I missed your post Jean.

I am looking again at the way Charlotte treats Oliver the same as Noah - because Noah does it. She was just as harsh as Noah and maybe harsher
Charlotte’s fist was by no means a light one;

It makes me wonder if Charlotte might be interested in Noah and her behavior is simply to show off and endear herself to him. Human nature shows that when we like someone and want to make ourselves look brighter in their view, we behave the way that person does. Anyway, just a curiosity.


message 373: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments Lori, I had the same thoughts.


message 374: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 03:16AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Beth - "Oliver's misery continues to vie with Oliver as the main character of the story"

That's an interesting thought! Charles Dickens was renowned for portraying inanimate objects as characters - or rather - imbuing chairs, houses, roofs etc. with life. He successfully used personification more than any other author I know! But I hadn't thought of Oliver's misery that way.

I suppose what I feel is that he is balancing his idealised boy, who embodies goodness and innocence, with a theme - the misery caused by society's laws, delivered by self-seeking individuals. But there are other way of looking at this besides our two, as well!


message 375: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 03:17AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Lori - Not at all! And as Sue says, you've made another great point about Charlotte:

"when we like someone and want to make ourselves look brighter in their view, we behave the way that person does"

Great point! And an extension of this is perhaps the hive mentality - behaving to "fit in" - despite this being out of character, or perhaps outside what one truly thinks is right. There's a very good example of this affecting Oliver, coming in a few chapters ...

"Fitting in" slots neatly into Shirley's post about identity. She pointed out that Charity boys lose their anonymity, because of the ghastly and garish uniform (oddly understated by Kyd's drawing!) They are picked on and bullied by other street boys, and hence become bullies themselves. And not only do they lose their anonymity, but also ironically lose their individuality too, being cast in the role of a charity boy for all to see. They are "badged and ticketed" commodities, just as baby Oliver was, right from the start in the workhouse.

Charles Dickens understands human nature - and how society works - very well.


message 376: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 05:22AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Chapter 7:

Noah runs to get Mr. Bumble from the workhouse, and tells him an exaggerated version of events. He claims that Oliver had tried to murder him, as well as Charlotte, and Mrs. Sowerberry, and that he wants to kill Mr. Sowerberry as well. Arriving at the undertaker’s, Mr. Bumble shouts through the cellar door to Oliver. He assumes that Oliver will be terrified by the sound of his voice, but Oliver is not:

“Ain’t you a-trembling while I speak, sir?” said Mr. Bumble.
“No!” replied Oliver, boldly.”




"Mr. Bumble" - Joseph Clayton Clarke ("Kyd") c. 1900

Mrs. Sowerberry says he must be mad, but the beadle says:

“It’s not Madness, ma’am,” replied Mr. Bumble, after a few moments of deep meditation. “It’s Meat.”

The beadle assures everybody that Oliver would not have been insolent if they had fed him gruel.

After several more beatings, Oliver decides to leave and sets out for London, passing the baby farm run by Mrs. Mann on his way. In the garden he sees one of the young boys, Dick:

“Oliver felt glad to see him, before he went; for, though younger than himself, he had been his little friend and playmate. They had been beaten, and starved, and shut up together, many and many a time.”



"Oliver and Little Dick" - Sol Eytinge Jr. 1867

Dick hugs Oliver and says, “God bless you!” It is the first time Oliver has ever been blessed, and he never forgets it.



"Good b'ye, dear! God bless you!" - Frederic W. Pailthorpe 1886


message 377: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 05:25AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
So Oliver has a lot of spirit! It seems that even though he had only ever had the dogs’s leftovers: “all the dirty odds and ends which nobody else would eat” his diet is too rich. And to run away without any sort of plan just shows how desperate this little boy must be. Wherever can he go? He is hardly well prepared.

It looks as if we may be leaving the Sowerberry’s behind, doesn’t it? Even if Oliver is caught they will hardly want him back! But I think we have a good picture of them in our minds, now. This sardonic observation made me smile. When Mrs. Sowerberry burst into a flood of tears, her husband had no alternative:

“If he had hesitated for one instant to punish Oliver most severely, it must be quite clear to every experienced reader that he would have been, according to all precedents in disputes of matrimony established, a brute, an unnatural husband, an insulting creature, a base imitation of a man, and various other agreeable characters too numerous for recital.”

This surely has to be from life! Charles Dickens’s own parents perhaps? It seems to fit their personalities up to a point. At least ... we see various characters who are based on his mother in Charles Dickens's future works, (even though John Forster makes it clear that he tried to disguise this), and what they have in common is that they seem rather silly. I do feel a little sorry for Mr. Sowerberry, the weak, henpecked, manipulated husband.


message 378: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 05:28AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
It feels heartbreaking to meet Dick, Oliver’s friend, who is still trapped at the baby farm. Will he survive? It sounds as though he almost hopes to die. We come across these “wise”, ethereal children quite a lot in Charles Dickens’s later works, and they have an other-worldly air about them which does not bode well. In fact a child who is seen to be “wise” beyond their years, and has a strange look about them, is often a code in Victorian literature that they will die soon. I'd better not give examples, but Dick feels this himself!

So will we see Dick again? He seems to be very important for Oliver. Dick represents one of the few kind people Oliver ever knew as a child and is the first person who ever blessed him.


message 379: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 08:03AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And a little more ...

Illustrations:


There are not many illustrations for this part of the text at all. There is nothing by George Cruikshank, but Frederic W. Pailthorpe has come to the rescue with his “grangerised” illustration! It is a “curtain scene,” closing the theatrical curtain on this chapter.

I’ve included one by the American illustrator Sol Eytinge Jr., (1833- 1905) who has illustrated most of the novels we have had as group reads. His main work was the "Diamond Edition" of Charles Dickens in 1867, though on many other occasions he made pencil drawings of Charles Dickens's subjects. Charles Dickens himself said of Sol Eytinge Jr's illustrations:

"They are remarkable alike for a delicate perception of beauty, a lively eye for character, a most agreeable absence of exaggeration, and a general modesty and propriety which I greatly like."

Personally I don’t think his figures are very well drawn sometimes, but at least here Sol Eytinge Jr draws attention to Oliver’s clothes, which the boy has badly outgrown.

Over to you!


Claudia | 935 comments I loved Dick, and the unforgettable impression he left us and Oliver. Another poignant scene.

Your comments on this Jean reminded me of Helen Burns in Jane Eyre who is one of those Victorian fleeting characters, as fleeting as angels, but who still leave undeleted footprints.


message 381: by Beth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "That's an interesting thought! Charles Dickens was renowned for portraying inanimate objects as characters - or rather - imbuing chairs, houses, roofs etc. with life."

It wasn't so much that I actually think it's a character, but that I was trying to avoid a common GoodReads term that might not be appropriate to the tenor of this group: "(view spoiler)"


message 382: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 06:37AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Great comparison Claudia! I hadn't thought of Helen Burns, but now you make it, it seems obvious! No wonder Charles Dickens admired that later novel 😊

Ah I see Beth. Yes, I'm glad you avoided that term, thank you. It reeks of the sarcasm about Victorian sentiments so often employed by disdainful 21st century readers (and endemic to GR, as you say). 🙄


Kathleen | 488 comments What a disturbing and heartbreaking line Bumble delivers:
"What have paupers to do with soul or spirit?”

I'm so glad you shared the illustrations, and what Dickens said about Sol Eytinge Jr, Jean. I just love his drawing of Oliver and Little Dick--the simplicity of it, and the intensity in their eyes.

And it's so true what you say about these ethereal children, Jean, but maybe Dick will remain a symbol of goodness for Oliver. He certainly hasn't seen much of it yet in his short life!


message 384: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 09:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Kathleen wrote: "... Sol Eytinge Jr, ... I just love his drawing of Oliver and Little Dick--the simplicity of it, and the intensity in their eyes."

I'll share some more of Sol Eytinge Jr.'s drawings when we come to them then, Kathleen 😊

It does occur to me that the "Diamond Edition" was only 3 years before Charles Dickens died. Even though he had been very clear about exactly what he wanted George Cruikshank to portray in his serials, specifying the scenes and some of the details, perhaps at the end of his life Charles Dickens appreciated something less caricatured, and more full of feeling. Just an idea ...

Yes indeed, a stinging riposte from Mr. Bumble 😥


Bridget | 1004 comments Bionic Jean wrote: " to run away without any sort of plan just shows how desperate this little boy must be. Wherever can he go? He is hardly well prepared.

Exactly, Jean, what can possibly happen to Oliver now? I fear it won't be good.

The bit that stays with me the most from this chapter is Mr. Bumble suggesting that Oliver became ferocious because Mrs. Sowerberry gave him scraps of meat. As Bumble says:

You've raised an artificial soul and spirit in him, unbecoming a person of his condition . . . What have paupers to do with soul or spirit? Its quite enough that we let 'em have bodies"

That's such a dark thought. It's making me realize the modern, musical theater interpretations of this novel are so different. Nowhere near as bleek.


message 386: by Jenny (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jenny Clark | 388 comments Bridget, I think that quote from Mr Bumble shows just how artificial his soul is! As if he has the right to take away their bodies!


message 387: by Karin (new) - rated it 3 stars

Karin Thanks for the illustrations; mine doesn't have them.

I hope we see Dick again and can't remember if we do. It did make me think of that trope where very good children die young (not sure where I first read about that) if. he does actually die. He said he overheard them say he would die. It isn't unusual in classic novels to see children who become not only resigned to death, but actually look forward to the end of suffering. I can't remember where else I've read it, but in a few books and often girls. Death wasn't nearly as foreign to children then as it is for most children in the western world today, and of course it was worse in places like the baby farm and the workhouse--anywhere there was poverty and neglect.

Mainly it's good to see that the workhouse didn't turn all of the children into nasty, grabbing ones, but that some still had kind hearts. That's not easy to do in that situation.


message 388: by Beth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "It feels heartbreaking to meet Dick, Oliver’s friend, who is still trapped at the baby farm. Will he survive? It sounds as though he almost hopes to die."

Or at least, he believes the doctor who's told him he's going to die.

That last scene with Oliver and Dick was quite affecting. Oliver has rebelled to the degree possible, and has only a life of gruel and abuse (both physical and verbal) to look forward to. He can't change the system, and might not live through it, so he has to go. Even if that means he must leave his little friend behind, to an unknown but likely deadly fate.


message 389: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments Mr. Bumble’s attitude toward Oliver sadly continued into 20th century thoughts and some policies and even some 21st century thoughts where those without are deemed to have exactly what they have earned. Dickens would not be pleased.

Bumble’s expression to Mrs. Sowerberry is so harsh. Did Victorians still believe in the “humours” in the body and blood? Could that be a part of the meaning of the comment about types of food (though I know he also seems a miser and to believe in classes).


message 390: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 10, 2023 04:00PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Sue wrote: "Did Victorians still believe in the “humours” in the body and blood?..."

I suspect it's a little late for this, but on the other hand Mr. Bumble is very behind the times! Michael pointed out his old-fashioned garb, and Bridget pointed out that he speaks ignorantly, using words but getting them wrong. So I think it's quite possible that he believed there was some scientific basis and justification for his prejudices.

As you say Sue, "Dickens would not be pleased."


message 391: by Lori (last edited May 10, 2023 04:25PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments Noah is just horrid and I see no way for him to change for the better. There was one line that really had me thinking of Uriah Heep
And here, Noah writhed and twisted his body into an extensive variety of eel-like positions;

He is just a mean and angered person and if Sowerberry gets another boy, I don’t see Noah making friends. Some people just won’t be satisfied until they exert their power over a weaker person to make themselves feel better. Now, Oliver has stood up to him and his only action is to make Oliver out to be the bad guy. And Mr. Bumble has to exert his own power in his own way but in this chapter, Oliver sent his head spinning when he told him No! Oliver and kids like him aren’t allowed to have a say or to make their own way. Now Oliver has taken his own prerogative. I am cheering for him because now he has a chance to make his own choices. I hope all goes Oliver’s way but this is Dickens and there is still a lot of story to tell.

And I was happy to see Oliver cry when the frenzy was over. Sometimes a good cry is very cathartic. This was a cry for himself and not for show. I’m starting to really fall for this orphan!


message 392: by Sam (last edited May 11, 2023 03:11AM) (new)

Sam | 443 comments Chapters six and seven have situations where Oliver's is similar to a slave's where he is mistreated, rebels, is found in complete fault by authities, punished, and as a result runs away. I don't get the impression that Dickens is making an intentional comparison, but it deserves consideration.

I am more prone to praise Dickens than criticize him, and the more I read the more I find reason to praise. I do have a critical eye though and I find the apperance of Dick and the interchange with Oliver my first percieved flaw in the novel. Oliver is escaping and I would have preferred a continued exploration of the accompanying tension and suspense or an introduction of a complication that would hinder the escape. Instead we get a sentimental idyll that feels contrived and takes me out of the story. I can see why Dickens felt a need for this scene but feel it could have been written more professionally. As it is brief, it does not spoil the story and we even have come to love Dick, but IMO, Dickens could have done better.


message 393: by Luffy Sempai (last edited May 11, 2023 04:06AM) (new)

Luffy Sempai (luffy79) | 182 comments Sam wrote: "Instead we get a sentimental idyll that feels contrived and takes me out of the story."

Saying that here, means that you are a dead man walking. No offence. I mean, my commiserations.


Last Movie: Scary Movie 2 (Keenen Ivory Wayans, 2001) 6/10


message 394: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 12, 2023 02:51AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Great comments Lori and Sam 😊

So just before we move on, here's a note about the sentimental scene between Oliver and Dick, which some friends here love, and some feel scepticism towards …

Sam said it felt contrived, and this is a fair point. I know full well that you are personally "more prone to praise Dickens than criticize him", but it's good to recognise that Charles Dickens is very manipulative with our emotions, at various points! So here are extra facts for everyone, which not many readers know, but may have a bearing.

Although it is not usually the final chapter in the installment now, this particular scene was the final chapter of the installment at one point (I suspect of the 10 part edition) which makes it even more of a “curtain scene”. Emotionally too, it seems a good ending for this phase, where poor Oliver is in limbo, not knowing what life has in store for him. It's a great cliffhanger!

I’m sure the original readers would have been totally swept up by the emotions of this novel. It is only our later analytical perspective on this which might see the writing as less “professional” than Charles Dickens’s later work. It is sentimental yes, but surely we do all allow for the earlier Victorian sentiments, as I mentioned yesterday. Melodrama too. Otherwise there is little point in reading Victorian novels at all.

And as we are about to see after today's chapter, Charles Dickens himself was about to receive a shock that rocked his emotional world in real life …


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Chapter 8:

On his journey, Oliver sees a milestone which indicates that London is 70 miles away.


Title-page Vignette "Oliver at the Milestone" - James Mahoney 1871



"Oliver's Flight to London" - Harry Furniss 1910

Oliver only has a crust of bread and a penny, both of which are soon gone. He tries begging but soon reaches towns that outlaw begging and view strange children with suspicion. After a week’s hard walking, he reaches the town of Barnet (Hertfordshire, North West of the City of London).



"Oliver at Barnet" - cover image/frontispiece - Joseph Clayton Clarke ("Kyd") c. 1900

Here Oliver meets a boy his own age, who treats Oliver to a meal:

“He was a snub-nosed, flat-browed, common-faced boy enough; and as dirty a juvenile as one would wish to see; but he had about him all the airs and manners of a man. He was short of his age: with rather bow-legs, and little, sharp, ugly eyes.



"Oliver falls in with the Artful Dodger" - Harry Furniss 1910



Oliver and the Artful Dodger at Barnet - Jessie Willcox Smith

This is Jack Dawkins, otherwise known as the “Artful Dodger”.


"Hullo, my covey! What's the row?" James Mahoney 1871



"Hullo, my covey! What's the row?" Frederic W. Pailthorpe 1886

Jack offers to take Oliver home with him and introduce him to a “’spectable old gentleman” who will provide Oliver with a place to stay free of charge. Late that night Jack leads Oliver through London to a dark, dirty neighbourhood full of unsavoury smells and people. Finally the Artful Dodger pulls Oliver into a doorway and guides him up a dark stairwell into a room where several other boys are drinking and smoking.



"Oliver Twist introduced to the respectable old gentleman" - George Cruikshank 1837

There, Oliver meets Fagin, “a very old shrivelled Jew, whose villainous-looking and repulsive face [is] obscured by a quantity of matted red hair”. Fagin gives Oliver a supper of sausages and watered-down gin before putting him to bed.



Fagin preparing dinner for the boys - J. Clayton Clarke ("Kyd") c. 1900

This concludes installment 4. We now have free time before the next chapter.


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What a journey! 60 - 70 miles is an enormously long way for a young child to walk, especially a malnourished, frail child like Oliver, with no money and virtually no food. His clothes would not give much protection from the winter chills, and his shoes were not likely to be very substantial either. (Most beggars in London at this time and later, did not have shoes, and even if he had had a pair from the Sowerberry’s, it sounds as though they have worn out on the road.)

“’A clean shirt,’ thought Oliver, ‘is a very comfortable thing; and so are two pairs of darned stockings; and so is a penny; but they are small helps to a sixty-five miles’ walk in winter time.’”

But he has an idea of “London”, as a place where no “no lad of spirit need want”. This is like a fairy tale again, in which London is paved with gold, or Dick Whittington, who goes to seek his fortune and be ”Lord Mayor of London”. I’m sure these tales were in Charles Dickens’s mind, and who knows, perhaps passed on between the children as they picked oakum. Other children in the workhouse had not been in the workhouse for all of their lives; some would remember a loving parent.

Oliver’s journey also reminded me of our first group read, David Copperfield, when David (view spoiler) That was written later, but I wonder if both accounts might have had a similar origin.


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When Oliver lost out on the coins offered by people treating it as a game, because he was too exhausted to keep up pace with the horses for a long time, but they thought he was just lazy and put their coins back in their pockets, I wanted to cry. Everybody seems to reject our young hero.

The journey Oliver made felt very authentic to me:

“The sun was rising in all its splendid beauty; but the light only served to show the boy his own lonesomeness and desolation, as he sat, with bleeding feet and covered with dust, upon a door-step.”

I was going to post the route, as I did before, but the map I found had spoilers. If you google Barnet, Herts to Saffron Hill London, you can see the route Oliver took with the Artful Dodger; it’s just over 12 miles. So even Jack Dawkins walks a fair amount from where he lives, each day. (We don’t know exactly where Oliver started off from on his long walk, before he met the Artful Dodger.)


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Social Class

So what do we think of this band? I like the description of the Artful Dodger, especially this detail:

“His hat was stuck on the top of his head so lightly, that it threatened to fall off every moment-and would have done so, very often, if the wearer had not had a knack of every now and then giving his head a sudden twitch, which brought it back to its old place again.”

Surely that is from life! I can imagine Charles Dickens scribbling it down in his little notebooks 😊 Oliver does not trust Jack Dawkins, but seems to like the old gentleman (perhaps because he gave him sausages?)

“he secretly resolved to cultivate the good opinion of the old gentleman as quickly as possible; and, if he found the Dodger incorrigible, as he more than half suspected he should, to decline the honour of his farther acquaintance.”

It’s interesting to consider the perspective for a moment. Oliver’s view seems consistent with a middle class morality, which is perhaps where Charles Dickens expected to find the bulk of his readers. But Oliver has found himself with a very different sort of people. Jack Dawkins describes Oliver to Fagin as having come from “Greenland”, (he is “green”) so we know how he is viewed by his new friends. And here’s a big clue to us as to what their “profession” might be, and why the Artful Dodger was so far away from home:

“One young gentleman was very anxious to hang up his cap for him; and another was so obliging as to put his hands in his pockets, in order that, as he was very tired, he might not have the trouble of emptying them, himself, when he went to bed.”

For the London readers of the 1830s this story offers glimpses of a foreign land right under their noses, complete with its exotic—and perhaps menacing—inhabitants. Oliver may now be seventy miles from the place he knew, but Charles Dickens’s readers were in a world not far removed from their own doorsteps.

The Pickwick Papers, Charles Dickens’s first novel, is a story about middle-class provincial life, but Oliver Twist is quickly establishing itself as concerning the less savoury side of the metropolis.


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In fact compared with the vague “anytown anywhere” opening, Charles Dickens’s description of the location is now very clear, and we can pinpoint exactly where Fagin’s band lives.

Oliver has spent a week on the Great North Road, making his “progress” towards London in the tradition of Henry Fielding, and William Hogarth who illustrated his novel The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling. This was a favourite book which Charles Dickens read all the time—and which we had as a group read last Autumn. William Hogarth also created the 5 satirical prints “The Harlot’s Progress” in 1732. https://www.rct.uk/collection/811512/... George Cruikshank continues this style of visual satire in all his illustrations for Charles Dickens.

Jack Dawkins, the Artful Dodger, is taking Oliver into the heart of Great Oven, the slums of Field Lane, which Charles Dickens would later visit himself on behalf of his friend, the philanthropist and reformer Angela Burdett Coutts. Somewhere in the maze of lanes in Saffron Hill lies Fagin’s place (view spoiler) (this relates to chapter 9).

But are Oliver’s instincts good? Fagin is called “the old gentleman” or even “the merry old gentleman” , but we need to look at the subtext here. This repulsive man is standing next to flames, and holding a toasting fork. I don’t want to say too much about him right now, but we do know exactly who was the inspiration for “the old gentleman”

So I’ll leave that until we learn a little more about Fagin in the novel. By the next installment we will be able to make our own judgements, but it would be a spoiler right now. More next time!


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And a little more …

Illustrations and Cruikshank v. Dickens


I have to say that my personal favourite illustration for this chapter is the one by Harry Furniss, in which the exhausted Oliver is aware in his thoughts of all the people who have made his life a misery so far. Poor lad! He feels beset by demons, and must think that all the world is against him.

Harry Furniss's illustration dates from 1910, but it may remind you of the famous painting "Dickens’ Dream" by Robert William Busss, which was painted in 1875, five years after the author’s death. I can’t help feeling Harry Furniss had this in mind!



"Dickens' Dream" - Robert William Buss

It's also worth noting the illustration by the American artist Jessie Willcox Smith, as it is the only one she produced for Oliver Twist. Her main focus in Charles Dickens's novels was on the children.

This chapter does have an original illustration by George Cruikshank, as you can see, and at the time he and Charles Dickens had a relatively harmonious collaboration. This subject, like Oliver’s asking for more and Oliver’s narrowly escaping being apprenticed to a chimney-sweep, was one which Charles Dickens had directly suggested to George Cruikshank, for "Bentley’s Miscellany" in April 1837. At this point Charles Dickens was coming to the end of The Pickwick Papers.

The March 1837 issue contained the courtroom scene, where (view spoiler). Both this, and Oliver’s experience at the Sowerberry’s reveal a more jaundiced view of life than usual for Charles Dickens. Charles Dickens seems to have been acutely aware of the essential unfairness of life, as the bullies and manipulators get the better of his well-meaning central characters. It’s interesting that these two scenes in different stories occur back to back, and the next post may go some way to explain his mood.

Shortly after these three illustrations, Charles Dickens and George Cruikshank quarrelled over who should be the lead artist, and they ceased to work so well together. The rocky relationship endured, however, from 1835 to 1841, from i.e. from Sketches by Boz right through to The Pickwick Papers

Later, in 1845, Charles Dickens generously (and wisely) approached George Cruikshank on behalf of the publishers Bradbury and Evans, to design the serial wrapper for the monthly parts for the 10 installment edition. This is the one with the surrounding cameos which tell the whole story.

But Charles Dickens himself was now about to receive a shock that rocked his emotional world …


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