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Oliver Twist or, The Parish Boys Progress
Oliver Twist - Group Read 5
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Oliver Twist: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 8
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But we know that we will read the whole story, 😊 so please use this time to catch up, read any posts you may have missed and comment. We will then move on to chapter 9 in a new thread, on Sunday.
Thanks all!
As someone new to the story, I was SO excited to finally meet The Artful Dodger, one of Dickens’ iconic characters I’ve heard so much about.About the illustrations--these differing depictions of Jack Dawkins are interesting. I get the feeling they had a hard time capturing the look of a hard-boiled youngster. Some look like middle-aged men, and some like innocent boys. For that, Mahoney’s probably sits about right with me, but like you Jean, I like the Furniss best, mostly for that little hollow in Oliver’s cheek!
I'm reading the biography Dickens Life and Times now, and one interesting observation that Peter Ackroyd makes is the importance of food in the novels. Apparently, Dickens was a light eater but loved to include his favorite foods in his writing, probably from his early memories of poverty and want. Ackroyd points out that there are dozens of meals described in The Pickwick Papers, and in this novel also food (gruel, meat, bread, ham, sausages) has had a central place.
Sue wrote: "Bumble’s expression to Mrs. Sowerberry is so harsh. Did Victorians still believe in the “humours” in the body and blood? Could that be a part of the meaning of the comment about types of food (though I know he also seems a miser and to believe in classes).For the first part, I could not find anything that say the Early Victorians rejected or still accepted "humours". What I did find was the medical Establishment believed that disease was caused by the body's reaction to some shock, and not caused by some communicable agent. This was a reversal of what the medical community believed in the 18th century. As with humours, a common treatment to bring the body back into balance was bloodletting.
The communicability of disease was a subject of intense debate around the time of Oliver Twist's publication. Edwin Chadwick, in groundbreaking epidemiological work, showed disease was systematically linked to living conditions and destitution. Chadwick strongly endorsed the miasma theory of disease contagion.
Source: "A Mad, Bad & Dangerous People? England 1783-1848", Boyd Hilton
The 2nd related part about food and diet did have social connotations. Diet was much more socially stratified than it is today. Meat was a luxury food item although the English were known for and prided themselves in meat was more available across society than on Continental Europe. One justification for this stratified diet was the upper classes had a different constitution than the lower classes. Society's betters needed and could eat meat while the bodies of the lower classes were ill equipped to eat meat.
Perhaps that is what Mr. Bumble was referring to how Oliver being at the bottom of society could not on a physical level eat meat. His violence outburst was a symptom of his mind and body not being able to handle meat.
As Erich pointed out, food was an important element in Dickens' works. One reason was food was a symbol of class and socioeconomic status. Even today, if I say a person is eating an arugula sandwich, that will invoke an image of a type of personage.
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Yes, they are incredibly varied, aren't they Kathleen? Far more than those of Oliver. The Irish illustrator James Mahoney always gives us good solid illustrations. Other artists lean towards the fanciful or the caricatured.
I'm glad you're enjoying them! These today took me hours to post, as they are all from different places. 🤔 The only place you will find them all together is here!
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Yes, both Charles Dickens and his wife Catherine were great gourmets, Erich.
I think I've mentioned the recipe book she wrote What Shall We Have for Dinner? by Lady Maria Clutterbuck which is also included in Dinner for Dickens. the Culinary History of Mrs Charles Dickens's Menu Books Including a Transcript of What Shall We Have for Dinner?' by Lady Maria Clutterbuck.
Charles Dickens wrote the introduction under the pseudonym Lord Clutterbuck. Catherine Thomson Dickens's pseudonym was taken from the name of the character she was to play in "Used Up", one of her husband's amateur theatrical productions.
The recipes are eye-popping, including such ingredients as a whole sheep's head, although some of the desserts are not too dissimilar to English desserts now.
A couple of years ago when I went to the Dickens House Museum, (in the actual house in Doughty Street where he wrote Oliver Twist) the ongoing theme was "Food" and every room had a special additional small display about it, which also confirms your point Erich.
At the moment the theme in the museum is "A Great and Dirty City: Dickens and the London Fog" with a smelly tour for kids, plus "The Night Soil Man's Tour" and a guided walk one day later this month: "Twists and Turns: Exploring the places that inspired Oliver Twist". If you are in London on 28th May, that's the place to be!
Peter Ackroyd has written many books on Charles Dickens, of varying lengths and with different concerns.
I didn't like the illustration by George Cruikshank picturing Fagin. It so reminded me of infamous caricatures in Julius Streicher's Der Stürmer I saw in the Museion Hatfutzot in Tel Aviv or at Yad Vashem... But antisemitism was somewhat frequent at Dickens's times and later, not only in this novel and not only in England. On the other hand, I noticed that many illustrations are unmerciful to almost any character, except for Oliver or perhaps some benevolent protagonists we hope to be meeting later on.
George Eliot, who herself learned Jewish thought and Hebrew with Emanuel Menahem Deutsch, wrote, much later, Daniel Deronda (my favourite GE novel) drawing thus a more positive and nevertheless realistic picture of Jewish communities.
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Can we talk about this in the next thread please Claudia? When we see more portrayals, and also know a little more about Fagin, as I said? I didn't want to skip ahead, so deliberately included the one by George Cruikshank where we have just met him, and the actual description by Charles Dickens. Yes, George Cruikshank caricatured almost everyone!
Thanks 😊
And for those who do know the story ... take a look at the top left of the illustration, and you can see a poster on Fagin's wall, of (view spoiler). I find this fascinating because George Cruikshank did not know the end of the story at this point. Nobody did!
So although it might seem as if it's a spoiler, it is just a suggestion in the original illustration. Does it mean Oliver, or someone else?
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Edwin Chadwick's research studies and actual work was contemporaneous with Charles Dickens, but his books seem to have been published a little later than Oliver Twist. I've found a book on engineering, plus various ones on Public Health from later, but the closest in date is Report on the Sanitary Conditions of the Labouring Population of Great Britain; A Supplementary Report on the Results of a Special Inquiry Into the Practice of Interment in Towns. Made at the Request of Her Majesty's Principal Secretary in 1843 which was still 6 years away. There are others by him on health and nutrition, later than that. Perhaps there was something earlier? I doubt whether the beadle would be very well acquainted with the ongoing scientific debates though.
"Oliver being at the bottom of society could not on a physical level eat meat. His violence outburst was a symptom of his mind and body not being able to handle meat."
So I think you're being a little too kind to Mr. Bumble here. Even if a garbled version of the studies had filtered down to him, isn't it more likely that he did not think the inmates deserved to have any meat, rather than that their digestions would not be able to digest it? Charles Dickens himself was always interested in the latest scientific discoveries though, as we have seen a few times in our group reads, so he might well have been aware of these topics, and have expressed these thoughts, as we discussed.
Food definitely differs between social classes - good point. Nobody but the poorest in the land would eat thing watery gruel. When Charles Dickens was a young boy working at the blacking factory, he would use his penny to buy a (meat) pie from the pie shop whenever he could. He thought that was a great luxury.
Me? I had to look up "arugula" 😂 Here in England we call it "rocket"; it's very recent.
I found an interesting anecdote in my editions notes for chapter 5 about the "medicine in a blacking bottle"- When Dickens worked in the blacking factory and fell ill, his friend Bob Fagin "tended him with doses of hot water in empty blacking-bottles". I can only imagine how he must have felt, to remember for that long!
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Any comments about chapter 8, and the long journey, anyone? Or any of my extra information?
For instance from the story, what did you make of the attitude of those who saw Oliver? Why didn't he try to beg or get work and stay in one of the towns? Why did you think the Artful Dodger was so far from home? Why did he need a code word?
Or any points about the style and mood?
Ooops sorry Jean, didn't mean to jump ahead like that! My mote only related it to chapter 5!
Thank you, Jean for all the marvelous background information today: social class, the route of Dodger and Oliver, and espeically Mary Hogarth. Plus all the illustrations. You always give us wonderful background info, but I really do feel you've exceeded expectations today.I knew how much Dickens grieved for Mary Hogarth, but I hadn't realized it happened right after the Chapter 8. My goodness no wonder he took a month off. How very clever of you to have us skip two days now instead of one.
I thought it was smart of Dickens to add the kind "turnpike man" and the old lady who helped Oliver out a bit to the story. It made Oliver surviving a 70mile journey much more plausible.
As far as social classes, I noticed the reference to Irish people "who are generally the lowest orders of anything". I'm guessing the Victorians were not overly fond of immigrants from Ireland.
Yes Bridget. The Irish immigrants are also a topic in North and South, but it comes up in Ruth by Mrs Gaskell, who was friends with Dickens after all. In 1841 the Irish made up, for example, 12.5% of the total population of Manchester and clustered in one area called Little Irland. They lived in dire circumstances, accepted very low wages and were Catholic, which was an additional pretext for not always being welcomed by the locals. Friedrich Engels's wife Lydia Burns herself was Irish.
The phrase "the lowest orders of anything" implies that they belonged to a very low rank in a caste system, perhaps even lower than our orphan himself? Poor all...
I gasped when I saw a 70-mile journey in front of Oliver. It's difficult to imagine him surviving it, even if he did get some scraps of meat at the Sowerberrys. A brisk walking speed for a healthy person is about 3 miles per hour. How fast could a weakened, starving child walk? And how could he continue it with only a crust of bread to eat? Oliver's journey to London strains my credulity.
The long journey reminds me a bit of The Canterbury Tales, with a long hard journey. Mrs Sowerberry could be the Wife of Bath and the kind turnpike man the knight.I was glad to see some kind people for once!
I like the artful dodger myself- quite a spirited chap! The description of him is quite vibrant as well, with his sleeves rolled up so he can slouch around with hands in his pockets
I caught up today, and I'm very much enjoying all the wonderful background information and illustrations! Oddly, I'm coming to the conclusion that I haven't read this book before and just thought I had because I've absorbed so much of the story from adaptions in other forms and references in other books. As far as why the code word, I was wondering that myself - it could be that they want to be alerted when anyone outside the group is coming in so they can hide anything illegal or make themselves scarce. It could also be that they want to be alerted when a new boy is being brought down so they can put on the right appearances for the new boy. There might be different code words that indicate different things so a person arriving can signal it on entry. Either way, the code word certainly hints at something shady going on!
As Oliver was walking, and when he met Artful Dodger I felt like pushing him onward (even though I haven’t read the book and don’t know the whole story). Though he really didn’t have any other choices did he. No one was willing to help a down and out young boy, obviously dirty and disheveled as he was.I doubt he had any concept of 70 miles or perhaps he would have chosen another destination. But where? London was the place he had heard of and where he thought he could find “something “.
Oliver is a brave boy....or he had no idea what 70 miles meant. Either way, the boy had spunk. The scene with Dick was sweet. Jean, thank you for the information that this chapter was meant to be the final one. That made the scene with Dick sweeter yet and more powerful. The kindness and love given to Oliver by Dick gave him courage and focus for a future that lay beyond the road in front of him. That's a powerful image.
Because there are perhaps 60-65 miles between Dick and Oliver-In-London, I suspect we won't see more of Dick. It's sad to think that he dies a lonely, unloved little tyke. He seems like a warm, tender child who could make a difference if he lives. I hope we get an update on him, but I don't really think we will.
Jenny, I also like the Artful Dodger. He's in a situation where he has to live by his wits and he seems to have found a way where he also keeps some of his cheerfulness and brightness about him. He isn't the pitiful, neglected, starving child we sometimes see in Dickens. Those tear at the heartstrings. The Artful Dodger gives hope that some of these discarded kids can make it and perhaps find a future at some point (a future that isn't on the streets, but safe and secure). My fingers are crossed for him.
Dickens makes me root for his characters. They go through so much difficulties and try so hard that I always root for their success.
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Oh yes! It does add verisimilitude, doesn't it? However black things are for Oliver, there is always going to be someone who sees the other side just as not all the magistrates were heartless. You always make great points, Bridget, and I'm so glad you're enjoying the extra info. 😊
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But she wrote much later than this ... in fact Daniel Deronda was published in 1876, 6 years after Charles Dickens's death, and 39 years after Oliver Twist. I think we all forget just how early this book was! When these 4 installments were published, Victoria had not even been crowned until this pause. Charles Dickens himself wrote a wonderfully kind and positive character who was a Jew in 1865, 11 years before Daniel Deronda ... but now I'm anticipating the next thread too 🙄
Yes, Charles Dickens and Elizabeth Gaskell were to become good friends in the future, and he published her serials (such as North and South - a title which he suggested to her) in his magazine first. But again this is much later. At the time of Oliver Twist they had not met. They first met in 1849 just after David Copperfield had been published. And after North and South they became bitter enemies, but that is another story.
So really what I'm saying is that when we think of social attitudes and prejudices, and perhaps do comparisons, we need also to remember Oliver Twist was not a late 19th century novel, but an early one, set specifically in 1837 and very much of its time, with some hangover habits and attitudes even from the 18th century. You're right, there was a lot of prejudice against the Irish - another huge topic.
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Yes, I think we all must feel that a little when we think of today's children, who often do not walk much at all. But walking was the norm - Charles Dickens himself (who had been a sickly child) walked many miles each day as an adult. Life was very different, and much more of it was spent outdoors.
Oliver was frail, but desperate, had little choice, and only had a vague idea of what it entailed. You can see this from his desperate position and demeanour in the Harry Furniss illustration at the milestone. And Charles Dickens made it clear that he was walking all day over several days (and he had the Artful Dodger's company and food for the last 12 miles).
Both Sue and Petra, express better than I why he was able to do this. And if you still find it hard to believe, then maybe hang on to the idea of literary precedent, with all the 18th century novels Charles Dickens loved, about young men and boys going on long journeys. And the earlier one Jenny mentioned The Canterbury Tales. Also, it's part of the allegorical nature of the story. Oliver has to go through this journey; it's both literal and metaphorical.
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Greg - I think lots of people also think they have read Oliver Twist before, perhaps because the basic story is well known from films or children's editions. You're not alone! "the code word certainly hints at something shady going on" oh yes!
Petra - "The Artful Dodger gives hope that some of these discarded kids can make it"
There are lots of great points being made here 😊 I hope everyone can catch up today and tomorrow. Do come and tell us your thoughts so far!
Bionic Jean wrote: "Claudia - Thanks for putting this in a wider context. I always feel that George Eliot was the main person to broaden out the Victorian novel, and make it the form we recognise today 😊 ..."Indeed Jean, you very aptly reminded us of the times when Oliver Twist was published, still in the first half of the 19th century and on the threshold of the Victorian era. In contrast, George Eliot - an atypical lady - was interested in Jewish life and communities much later.
I am not a connoisseur of Charles Dickens but thanks to your posts and everybody's comments I am little by little learning a few things, and I read somewhere that a Mrs Davis, herself Jewish, was critical about Fagin back then (spoilers apart, it was my first epidermic reaction triggered by a caricature, without knowing what happens next). Yes, it was an early novel, and many things happened meanwhile in his and everybody's experience, so Dickens created a wholly different Jewish character later in Our Mutual Friend, Mr Riah if I don't mistake.
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We're all learning all the time, aren't we? I love that about this group 😊
Bionic Jean wrote: ""the code word certainly hints at something shady going on" oh yes!"The more I think about it, the more strange the pass code seems. I assume that the Artful Dodger is known there, and it seems like he's with some of the boys and already talking to some boys by the time he has to give the pass code. It isn't like they can't see who he is.
But I presume that the mysteries of the pass code and what the Artful Dodger was doing so far away from the hideout will be revealed in future chapters. I look forward to finding out more!
Bridget wrote: "Thank you, Jean for all the marvelous background information today: social class, the route of Dodger and Oliver, and espeically Mary Hogarth. Plus all the illustrations. You always give us wonderf..."I agree about those two kind people who helped make his survival believable; it is also realistic. Not everyone was as calloused as the ones who ignored or mocked him.
Oliver's situation finally seems to be improving. He has a roof over his head, and has had decent food to eat, and hasn't been bullied or beaten (in the first moments he's at Fagin's), though he's by no means "one of the gang" yet.It's a little startling to see what today would be considered underage children drinking alcohol or smoking pipes. Of course, cultural perception of childhood was different then, and post-elementary education as a buffer between childhood and adulthood would have been pretty rare among this socioeconomic class, I suspect.
The Artful Dodger's dialogue was a little hard for me to understand at first, but it didn't take long to gather what he was communicating both from context and the notes in my edition of the book.
Beth, if I’m remembering correctly, at the time of Oliver Twist it wouldn’t be odd for children, not infants, to be drinking ale. Water was generally unsafe to drink. I don’t know about milk but I would imagine it would only be available if you lived on or near a farm. I believe there were different strengths of ale. Of course I may be wrong on this.
I read about milk just recently, maybe in this very thread regarding Oliver's being nursed with gruel? Pasteurization was some decades out, and milk does not stay fresh for long without some kind of cool storage or refrigeration.
I'd rather have the gruel than attempt to down milk. E.g. up to early 20th century, it was legal to put formaldehyde in milk, in the UK. In the US, this practice was prevalent there as well. Sometimes the milkmen in the US would add calf brains to the milk, to make it appear creamy.Last Movie: Scary Movie 2 (Keenen Ivory Wayans, 2001) 6/10
Luffy wrote: "I'd rather have the gruel than attempt to down milk. E.g. up to early 20th century, it was legal to put formaldehyde in milk, in the UK. In the US, this practice was prevalent there as well. Someti..."That may be more information than I need, Luffy! It's a good thing times have changed.
Anna wrote: "Luffy wrote: "I'd rather have the gruel than attempt to down milk. E.g. up to early 20th century, it was legal to put formaldehyde in milk, in the UK. In the US, this practice was prevalent there a..."Sorry if I went overboard, wish you a nice weekend! :)
Last Movie: Scary Movie 2 (Keenen Ivory Wayans, 2001) 6/10
Like Kathleen, I was glad to finally meet the Artful Dodger (and Fagin), two characters I've heard so much about. I'm looking forward to seeing if they exert a bad influence on Oliver, or if Oliver exerts a good influence on Fagin and the boys that Fagin has taken under his wing.Two observations from the recent chapters:
Jean, you mentioned that Charles Dickens' father was rather a henpecked husband, and that this situation may have influenced Dickens' portrayal of the Sowerberrys. As soon as these two characters were introduced in Oliver Twist, I thought of the Snagsbys in Bleak House. Both husbands took a liking and tried to help their young friends while trying to hide that fact from their respective wives (although Mrs. Snagsby was nowhere near as mean as Mrs. Sowerberry).
I also thought of two other characters that reminded me of sweet ethereal Dick in Chapter 7: Little Paul Dombey in Dombey and Son and Jo in Bleak House. Dickens (view spoiler).
You mentioned, Jean that Dickens used characters as templates. In these two instances I brought up, they each seem to fall into that category: (1) Overbearing wife/henpecked husband, and (2) uncertain future of sweet, frail young boys. If Dickens was finding success with certain formulas and adapted his serials to appeal to his audience, perhaps it encouraged him to use these templates over and over. (Personally, I'm a sucker for them. ☺️)
Sue wrote: "Beth, if I’m remembering correctly, at the time of Oliver Twist it wouldn’t be odd for children, not infants, to be drinking ale. Water was generally unsafe to drink. I don’t know about milk but I ..."Yes, water and alcohol were the safest way to get your fluids once you were off the breast, which of course he was never on.
I was so excited to get to London and to meet the Artful Dodger like so many of us. This chapter has so much more dialogue that is lively and changes the overall tone from despair for Oliver to one that is much more hopeful but also inquisitive. We are curious about the reason The Dodger didn’t want to enter the city before nightfall. He doesn’t want to be seen possibly because of something he’s done or is doing for Fabian that he doesn’t want a Bobby to know about. The introduction of the slums brought and the Irish brought me back to the story I lead On Duty with Inspector Field where we talked a lot about both of these topics.
Shirley I also thought of little Paul Dombey when we met Dick and you’ve reminded us of Jo as well. I am one who loved the addition of Dick for its sentimentality even if we don’t hear about him anymore.
I do find it a little odd that Oliver is less inclined to trust a boy close to his age who seems confident and assured, healthy and happy at first impressions over Fagin, an adult as we know his track record so far with adults is pretty much nil.
I don’t want to spoil what these boys are doing here at Fagin’s place, but I can’t believe it’s on the up and up. Jean quoted a very good clue.😉
Bionic Jean wrote: "And a little more ...There are not many illustrations for this part of the text at all.
Charles Dickens himself said of Sol Eytinge Jr's illustrations:
"They are remarkable alike for a delicate perception of beauty, a lively eye for character, a most agreeable absence of exaggeration, and a general modesty and propriety which I greatly like."
I personally like Mr. Eytinge Jr's drawing of Oliver and Dick. It seems out of focus, as though it is being 'seen' through the mists of time. We are distant observers, and I like the way the drawing pulls our attention to the two little faces, clinging to one another and eye-to-eye. There is something important happening here. Since it was approved by Dickens, I assume it is expressing what he wants the reader to see.
Also, Dickens had by this time published David Copperfield and his readers as well as Eytinge might have assumed there was something autobiographical in this emotional scene.
With the introduction of the Artful Dodger, we are getting some interesting slang and I am linking a sample page from Green's Dictionary of Slang which might interest some of you.https://greensdictofslang.com/entry/y...
I feel Dickens is back in form with this chapter, but I feel the Dickens has established an intent and direction more defined than before. This chapter seems more immediate and I would venture we get the sense that Oliver is roughly at the age he will remain for the rest of the story, as the story now continues with more present and less back story. I am curious if Dickens had planned this previously or has come to this decision on direction in the course of writing.
The Artful Dodger is an instant archetype right down to that light-fitting hat. What a character!
Looking forward to your upcoming comments Jean.
Bionic Jean wrote: “If he [Mr. Sowerberry] had hesitated for one instant to punish Oliver most severely, it must be quite clear to every experienced reader that he would have been, according to all precedents in disputes of matrimony established, a brute, an unnatural husband, an insulting creature, a base imitation of a man, and various other agreeable characters too numerous for recital.”Jean says:
This surely has to be from life! Charles Dickens’s own parents perhaps?
I would like to point out something I learned about the punishment of children in Victorian England. In our readings so far, we are told frequently of the beatings and thrashings received by Oliver. In the fight where Noah, Charlotte and Mrs. Sowerberry all three attacked Oliver, it is easy to gloss over the severity of the punishment this child received. Charlotte "seizing Oliver with her utmost force, which was about equal to that of a moderately strong man...and between every syllable Charlotte gave Oliver a blow with all her might..."
Then Mrs. Sowerberry helped Noah and Charlotte hold Oliver down, "while she scratched his face", and then Noah "pummeled him from behind." The worst was not over until Mr. Sowerberry got home to finish Oliver off. "...he at once gave him a drubbing, which satisfied even Mrs. Sowerberry herself, and rendered Mr. Bumble's subsequent [later?] application of the parochial cane rather unnecessary."
Just how hard might Oliver been hit while no one was accountable for his injuries? Dickens would have known as well as his contemporaries that beatings could be very serious indeed. I found this article about just what a "thrashing or drubbing" might consist of.
https://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/2013/...
At this point in the novel, we cannot avoid some discussion of Dickens’ characterization of the crafty and thoroughly corrupt Fagin as a Jew. Although Dickens’ reputation as a humanist and social reformer is undeniable, he was nevertheless a product of his era. The Fagin character may well have been partially based on Ikey Solomon, an infamous criminal who Dickens had encountered — and he no doubt found it convenient to envision the criminal Fagin as a Jew, a choice that would probably have been widely accepted by the readership of his day. Such a characterization would surely not pass a smell test today. I wonder if Dickens eventually came to regret his decision and perhaps attempted to atone for it in Our Mutual Friend by creating the admirable Riah character.
Jim wrote: "At this point in the novel, we cannot avoid some discussion of Dickens’ characterization of the crafty and thoroughly corrupt Fagin as a Jew. Although Dickens’ reputation as a humanist and social r..."Both of Dickens' decisions, to cast a villainous Jew, and to cast a redeemable one, were both probably included for commercial purposes. Making Dickens himself redeemed by casting the Riah character must not obscure the fact that Dickens knew on which side his bread was buttered.
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All completely true (so I edited out your cautions 😀).
Water in London was never safe to drink. There's quite a lot about all the unsavoury details of this in our side read, The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Dickens' London by Judith Flanders. There is also a post I wrote somewhere in "Dickensians!" about how beer was promoted by religious groups such as the Quakers, (oddly, as we think of present day Quakers as teetotal) ) as an alternative to the spirits consumed in vast numbers in the East End.
At the moment I can't find it, but will link it here if I do!
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That's really observant, thank you, and one of the reasons why it is so fascinating and worthwhile to look in detail at these early works 😊
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"I do find it a little odd that Oliver is less inclined to trust a boy close to his age who seems confident and assured, healthy and happy at first impressions over Fagin" Oh personally, I find this believable. The Artful Dodger is full of bluster, and I can imagine he must seem really cocky. Although on the other hand, the Artful Dodger is the first person Oliver meets who takes a personal interest in him. He even introduces the Oliver to Fagin as "my friend, Oliver Twist." So I would have imagined he might warm to Jack Dawkins a little more than he has.
Oliver seems to know instinctively that some adults are kind and to be trusted to look after children. In this chapter at least, all Oliver has seen of Fagin is the pleasant side he wishes to show. Fagin must contrast violently with the adults he has known so far; has give him tasty sausages, not gruel, or the dog's leftovers, plus a place to sleep. he is too innocent to know that the courteous bow Fagin made to him was ironic.
Why remains to be seen is whether this perception - or perhaps deception - will be able to be sustained.
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Nice point! Although I don't think the readers were aware until much later (via John Forster) that parts of David Copperfield were autobiographical ... but certainly when he was older, Charles Dickens began to appreciate the more naturalistic drawings to illustrate his works, rather than merely caricatures.
Excellent point about how severe beatings were in Victorian England, hence the saying Spare the rod and spoil the child. Public (i.e. very select private English) schools led the way in this. Good article too!
By the way my point was about the relationship between husband and wife: the "disputes of matrimony established" part, where the husband agrees to the wife's wishes, in order that he may not personally incur her wrath, or hysterics, on himself! Sorry if that wasn't clear; it relates to your first post about the trope of the henpecked husband.
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As for whether Dickens had planned whether Oliver ages ... well remember he was still only writing installments, but was not yet aware of writing a full novel. Keep an eye on my extra "and a little more..." posts.
And thank you!
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited May 15, 2023 05:24AM)
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All that has happened in chapter 8 is that Oliver has been shown into Fagin's place. So, now I'm off to post in our new thread.
This one will remain open for further thoughts up to the end of chapter 8, for anyone coming along a little later 😊
The next thread is open LINK HERE
Edited.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Oliver Twist (other topics)Oliver Twist (other topics)
David Copperfield (other topics)
The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Dickens' London (other topics)
Our Mutual Friend (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)John Forster (other topics)
Judith Flanders (other topics)
George Eliot (other topics)
Harry Furniss (other topics)
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About Mary Hogarth
You can see from the original publishing schedule (my comment 4) that there was no issue for June 1837, so there was a gap of two whole months! The readers must have found this very frustrating, but it is because Charles Dickens was deep in mourning.
Mary Hogarth, his wife Catherine’s sister, had died on 7th May (this is sometimes misreported as October) at the tender age of 17. The cause was either heart failure or a stroke. Mary Hogarth lived with the couple at Doughty Street, London, and had been a constant companion and chaperone to the couple since the age of 14. It was a terrible shock to Charles Dickens, and one from which he never recovered. He wore Mary’s ring for the rest of his life, and also requested a locket of her hair. Catherine herself suffered a miscarriage, from the shock.
We have seen several instances of innocent, almost angelic young girls of 17 in Charles Dickens’s works. These are the author immortalising Mary Hogarth. Eight months later Charles and Catherine Dickens were to name their first daughter Mary Dickens (“Mamie” Dickens) in her memory.
It is the only time he ever missed a deadline (except for one later instance, which I’ll tell you about when it happens!) Giving his public a reason for missing the publication dates, Charles Dickens wrote that “he had lost a very dear young relative to whom he was most affectionately attached, and whose society has been, for a long time, the chief solace of his labours”.
And about Publication Troubles
But this double tragedy took its toll on Charles Dickens, and tension developed between Charles Dickens and Richard Bentley. Charles Dickens was mentally planning a new novel to be called “Gabriel Varden” (which was eventually to published as Barnaby Rudge) and asked that Oliver Twist be considered as the second novel of the two he was under contract to write.
Richard Bentley understandably objected, as then Charles Dickens would get paid twice! But Charles Dickens (also understandably) said that since the initial agreement, his value had increased enormously. John Forster had to intervene between the two during July and August …
and I’ll tell you what happens when we get to that installment. If you like, you can read it all in John Forster's Life of Charles Dickens (where there are spoilers for Oliver Twist, though.)