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Oliver Twist or, The Parish Boys Progress
Oliver Twist - Group Read 5
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Oliver Twist: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 8
Hey guys!!! Think i’m late to the party!! Any chance i could join?? Let me know what I need to read to catch up? Also interesting note: I did Oliver Twist in my secondary School English Language curriculum, wondering if anyone else did? Did it in a way that completely sucked the joy out of it tho… classic UK school!!!
Izzy x
Dickens makes reference to “juvenile offenders against the poor laws”. Perhaps the boys broke one of the various laws against vagrancy, for example, there were statues mandating vagrants be returned to their parish of settlement or the Vagrancy Acts of 1820s criminalizing being a homeless indigent.Dickens makes it a point to describe all the members of the Parish board and their underling Mr. Bumble as fat in stark contrast to Oliver Twist’s lack of physical development. Hopefully this text will not meet the same fate as Roald Dahl’s.
Ms. Bionic described a "baby farm". Starting in the time period Ms. Bionic cited for the Hanway Act of 1767, parish authorities were farming out many aspects of Poor Law provisioning to private parties. The thought was farming out would lower costs and make the workhouses profitable enterprise. Immediately reformers and critics noted the corruption of this system; they advocated reforms that would be implemented in the 1834 act.
The narrator spells out the macabre result of Mrs. Mann's theft, “in eight out of a half cases out of ten…the miserable little being was usually summoned into another world”. The narrator states there is an intentional turning of a blind eye from the Parish authorities who are supposed to supervise the contractor. Not stated in the text but the implicit reason for this willful blindness is the high mortality rate kept taxes down.
Just to add some points to Ms. Bionic's insightful notes about Jeremy Bentham and the Utilitarians. Perhaps the reason Dickens keeps using the term "philosophical" to describe the Utilitarians is because the followers of Bentham described themselves as Philosophical Radicals. A book about the Victorians described Bentham as attempting to apply Newtonian Mechanics to human behavior. Bentham refers to humans engaging in a "felicific calculus" to make decisions. It was Bentham's secretary Edwin Chadwick, the great advocate of hygienic reform, who was the leading intellectual force behind the drafting of the 1834 Poor Law; Chadwick does make a cameo in an episode of the series "Victoria".
What was the reason Poor Law reform was so important under the Whig government of Earl Grey? Those in positions of wealth and power believed spending on Poor Relief has become intolerable.
A system of Pre-1834 Poor Relief called the Speenhamland System, whose main characteristic was relief was tied to the price of grain, developed under the economic pressures of the late 18th century. This system was considered liberal and generous.
Spending rose from £2 million in the 1790s to £7 million in 1832. That rise in spending coincided with an increase in the population of England from 8 million to around 14 million. What did £7 million mean in 1832? The Bank of England estimates the Gross Domestic Product of the United Kingdom that year was around £500 million; spending on Poor Relief represented 1.4% of GDP. As a comparison, Britain today spends 2.1% of GDP on the military. Total public expenditure in 1832 represented 10% of GDP. In other words, Poor Relief represented 14% of public expenditures. A contemporary similar share of public expenditure would be spending on education.
Curtailing spending on Poor Relief was part of the overall goal of maintaining tight control of public spending after the massive debts run up fighting Revolutionary and Napoleonic France. It was believed political stability would be strengthened by low taxes. By 1870, public expenditure stabilized at around 7% of GDP. The 1834 law did work as intended as spending on Poor Relief fell to an average of £4.7 million from 1839 – 1842.
Dickens would forever set the idea of the Victorian workhouse as a cruel, and dehumanizing institution. He did this when the law he was eviscerating was only three years old; although the ideas behind the law were being discussed for decades prior to 1834.
Although reality was more complicated, the following is from “The Mid-Victorian Generation 1846-1886: The New Oxford History of England” by K. Theodore Hoppen , “As late as 1856 there were still 2.25 million people in England and Wales living in the pre-1834 administrative system units that have not yet been reorganized, while the intended abolition of assistance outside workhouses proved impossible and outdoor relief continued even for able-bodied males well in the last quarter of the century.” When the system worked as intended it was cruel and ruthless, but there were obstacles preventing this full implementation.
Besides the fiscal impact and the intentional ruthlessness of, one of the salient characteristics of the 1834 law was the centralization of control in a country historically suspicious and resistant to such control. This law marked the beginning of a shift in administrative power from localities to Westminster. As the Fabian Webbs’ stated, the Poor Law of 1834 established “the principle of centralised executive control of local administration”.
If you want to explore this topic more, the BBC History Extra podcast did an episode on the workhouse:
https://www.historyextra.com/period/v...
The workhouses lasted till 1929.
Sources:
“A Polite and Commerical People: England 1727 – 1783”, Paul Langford
“A Mad, Bad & Dangerous People?: England 1783 – 1846”, Boyd Hilton
“The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Charles Dickens’ London”, Judith Flanders
“Victorious Century: The United Kingdom, 1800 – 1900”, David Carradine
“A millennium of macroeconomic data”, Bank of England
“The Mid-Victorian Generation 1846-1886” by K. Theodore Hoppen
I forgot Mr Bumble came in this early! He's a favorite of mine here for just how ridiculous he is!
Bionic Jean wrote: "Greg - I've just gone over that paragraph about "doctors of profound wisdom", and am pretty sure you're right and it is just a sarcastic sort of comment (bordering on irony perhaps, as Lee says 😊)..."
(from chapter 1) Maybe what Dickens was commenting on here was the fact that Oliver's will to survive was influenced by the fact that no one cared over much whether he survived or not. The fact that it was up to him alone toughened him up right from the beginning.
How did Oliver survive nine years? There was no woman to nurse him. My heart breaks thinking about it. I noticed that in a world of starving children there are many fat men on the board. Everyone seems to be fat…except the children.
A heart-breaking chapter, full of dark irony in the way Mrs Mann and all the baby-farmers of that time skillfully managed to get those poor children grow: on the brink of starvation, being beaten and punished for no reason, not being washed not correctly dressed against winter conditions, not being taught anything, and above all not being loved by anyone. What a chilling world!Oliver's strong yet unconscious will to survive is remarkable.
A close reading of this chapter shows as the previous one how much everything in Oliver's life up to now is actually a matter of both coincidences and Providence.
I also noted how much the chapter illustrates 1 Corinthians 13:2. (I am more familiar with the NIV). The white waistcoated gentleman feels like a prophet but is entirely devoid of any hint of love for his neighbour, even devoid of any feeling or empathy: "What *could* the boy be crying for?" His white waistcoat is a contrast with his attitude and, we may suppose, the darkness of his heart.
Many contrasts between what should be (food, warmth, love) and the merciless reality those children are facing every second of their lives and the adults' double language (the board).
Thank you Jean for the thorough knowledge and background infos.
Like Brenda, I also noticed how Mr Bumble and the men on the board were described as fat. I especially liked the illustrations by Harry Furniss, and Harold Copping in message 141. They both placed the workhouse master's big belly in the center of the illustration, surrounded by the thin, bony boys, as Oliver asks for more food.
Yes Connie and Brenda. Much telling illustration!
Bionic Jean wrote: "Jim JarvisJim Jarvis was ten years old. One cold winter’s night Jim was huddled around the fire talking to Barnardo and time passed all too quickly until it was time to go home. Barnardo sent the..."
Thank you so much for sharing this story!!
Claudia wrote: "A heart-breaking chapter, full of dark irony in the way Mrs Mann and all the baby-farmers of that time skillfully managed to get those poor children grow: on the brink of starvation, being beaten a..."Claudia, I so agree with everything you said. A chilling world indeed and unfortunately there are still news stories of horrendous child neglect and abuse both within families and in foster homes where, like Mrs. Mann, people pocket the money given to them for the care of children for themselves instead. Living examples of the dark hearts you mention.
Wow, this was such a fantastic chapter! Right from the start we get the feel for how Oliver's first year of life was probably touch and go. Someone had the responsibility of bringing him "up by hand" and thus determined that since there was no woman around that could nourish him, to send him - "farm" him to a place where he will be even further mistreated. I immediately thought of all of the orphan animals who are bottle fed by humans rather than nursed by their mothers. And knowing that there is no affection or bonding in this is even more heartbreaking.
Dickens doesn't waste time getting right to the point of the state of the farming workhouses. (I haven't read any of the extra posts yet, but will get back there and soak up all of Jean's information).
The satire is palpable as we definitely understand that the woman running the workhouse is definitely NOT wise and experienced or knowing what was good for children. The only correct statement was that she knew what was good for herself. - Keeping most of the stipend for herself rather than being a beneficent provider.
It cannot be expected that this system of farming would produce any very extraordinary or luxuriant crop.
Here is a bit of hope I was looking for in yesterday's chapter: that Oliver's good sturdy spirit came from Nature. (Certainly he wasn't nurtured)
Mr. Bumble - a comic character - but knowing that Dickens doesn't particularly love Beadles (we have talked about this in a previous read) I found myself chuckling when I believe Dickens inserted himself by saying Yes, he smiled. Beadles are but men: and Mr. Bumble smiled. and again later when the narrator says What a novel illustration of the tender laws of England! They let the paupers go to sleep!
I found it endearing that Oliver was sad to leave the workhouse behind, feeling lonely for the first time. He is now having to leave the boys who were the only friends he knew. Despite their hunger and destitute lives, it's telling that these boys were bound together by their circumstances and no-one else outside will ever understand their plight.
Jean - I'm loving all the information you've posted. It is already providing a much richer experience than my first read. I had no idea that Oliver Twist was so true to life. I had assumed it included exaggeration for effect. It's heartbreaking about Jim Jarvis but uplifting about Thomas Barnado. Thank you for bringing them to our attention. I was pleasantly surprised by your Bible references especially since 1 Corinthians 13 is one of my favorite chapters and yet I never would have thought that Dicken's had it in mind.
As far as the ending of the chapter, thank you for bringing that up! Mine has the second ending but it's so interesting that he may have been giving Oliver a very short life and likely had none of the wonderful characters that show up later in his mind.
I'm already wishing that we had some authors writing in this serial form today.
Michael - I love your added context especially with Dickens use of "philosophical" and how it could have referred to Bentham and others like him and also your context of the spending on the poor being 1.4% of GDP at the time.
Plateresca - I love your quote from the Mullan book about Dickens enabling us to laugh when we shouldn't. I noticed in reading this, it feels much more humorous that the film as I remember. I don't laugh out loud either, but I do like that his humor brings some levity so that we can keep continuing on. I don't remember the film feeling as humorous but the music, brings the relief there.
Lori wrote: "Wow, this was such a fantastic chapter! Right from the start we get the feel for how Oliver's first year of life was probably touch and go. Someone had the responsibility of bringing him "up by han..."I agree with everything you said, Lori. Especially about how sad it was with Oliver leaving the friendships. I didn't remember from my first reading that the reason he asked for more was because the one boy threatened to eat the boy next to him! These poor boys had all been through so much that the threat it didn't even seem unrealistic to them.
Bionic Jean wrote: "In his conversation with Mrs. Mann, Mr. Bumble reveals that he could learn nothing about Oliver’s parentage. ..."I was surprised to see that someone made any attempt to find Oliver's parentage. It seems that a lot of trouble was taken to try to find his origins. Even after 9 years the topic of Oliver's parentage comes up in casual conversation.
It would be a lot of time for the Board to invest in looking for the families of each child who is born of a single mother in their care.
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Of course Izzy - welcome! Gosh, we now have 70 members in for this read of Oliver Twist - how fantastic! I look forward to your comments.
Basically this is a slow read. If you look at the beginning of this thread it tells you the exact timetable. We have a day's break at the end of each installment, and I'll remind you of this each time it happens. So if you can just read chapters 1 and 2 by Thursday, then you'll be all caught up.
Welcome to the read! It's lovely to see you here Izzy, and please do tell us a bit about yourself in our welcome thread, if you like. I'm English too, but (perhaps luckily!) did not "do Dickens" at school, so nothing was spoilt for me. 😊 I'm sad this happens sometimes ... but now you have a chance to really enjoy yourself with him!
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Yes, probably the one I mentioned in 1824. Thank you very much for expounding on some of the historical topics Michael. I know I can rely on your historical expertise 😊 And thanks for the mention of Edwin Chadwick, who was so instrumental in these changes, as you say.
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He's such a "popular" character, isn't he, Jenny? Perhaps because he's so awful ...
When I was little, I had a glove puppet of him, along with Sooty, Sweep and various other childish ones. He had a big, ugly rubber head, and I was terrified of him 😨 My mum said he was "the Beadle" but I didn't know what that was - he was just some bogeyman to me!
Lori wrote: "Mr. Bumble - a comic character - but knowing that Dickens doesn't particularly love Beadles (we have talked about this in a previous read) I found myself chuckling when I believe Dickens inserted himself by saying Yes, he smiled. .."I had the same reaction, Lori. Whenever I see the word Beadle now, I have a negative reaction. I loved the illustrations of Mr. Bumble in Jean's comment 141. Especially the second illustration with his shoulder coverlets flapping in the breeze conveying the idea he's walking so fast that poor Oliver can't keep up. Thank you for all the wonderful illustrations, Jean, as well as all the background. I definitely needed the tissues for the Jim Jarvis story.
When Mr. Beadle bragged about his method of naming Oliver, I found myself trying to do some mental math to figure out how many poor orphaned children Mr. Beadle named ("T" is the 20th letter of the alphabet, and it sounded like Mr. Bumble was ready to sail through the alphabet multiple times!)
I'm struck with the utter incompetence of the adults in these first two chapters. These children are so alone in the world. I want a Peggotty or Polly Toodle character to show up. I wonder how much Charles Dickens reflected on his own childhood and his time in the blacking factory as he wrote this.
Petra wrote: "I was surprised to see that someone made any attempt to find Oliver's parentage. It seems that a lot of trouble was taken to try to find his origins. Even after 9 years the topic of Oliver's parentage comes up in casual conversation.Yes, especially as this was after the 1834 act, which basically absolved the fathers of illegitimate children from being financially responsible for them! Despite the supernat’ral exertions of the parish and a reward of twenty pounds, they were not able to discover who is his father, or what is his mother’s settlement, name, or condition. I must assume this effort was put forth in the hopes of relocating Oliver to his mother's parish, thus removing the financial burden of his upkeep from Bumble's administrative district.
Petra, I’m thinking they were still looking for Oliver’s father or other family so they could be charged for that “excellent” upbringing at the farm where no expenses were to be spared. Can you imagine what they would have billed for the care he never received.The sarcasm really rips through this chapter as Dickens skewers everyone who is an official or has any kind of job working under this “care” system that doesn’t care at all. The policies definitely appear designed to cull the “herd” of poor and unattached people living in England. But no one need get their hands dirty. The poor can drop dead of hunger or overwork.
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Yes, I'm sure that was at least part of it, Katy
Brenda (and several others) have commented on how Charles Dickens emphasises the corpulence of the parish board, contrasting with the puny, underfed inmates. The don't seem to recognise their own hypocrisy in this, do they 😕
Claudia - "everything in Oliver's life up to now is actually a matter of both coincidences and Providence"
Nicely put! Luck or chance is a major theme in Oliver Twist.
I don't have the New International Version of the Bible, just the 2 I quoted from (plus a New English Bible), but do please quote those verses from Corinthians I in that edition if you like. I suspect the parallels drawn will be the same. This particular reference, and the numerical significance, is so deep into the subtext that it can easily be missed - but I do think it is interesting and food for thought 😊
Yes, the white waistcoat hides a very dark heart - well spotted - another contrast (of which I was going to alert the group later).
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"They both placed the workhouse master's big belly in the center of the illustration," What a brilliant observation, thanks Connie!
"I definitely needed the tissues for the Jim Jarvis story."
Yes, 😥 Bridget and Chris I thought it was worth telling, even though it's not directly related to this novel. But it was not really that much later, and in the same city. Jim was another Oliver, really, and his life led to positive changes.
"I'm struck with the utter incompetence of the adults in these first two chapters"
Oh yes, and it seems so true to life as well, doesn't it?! Even now some children make us marvel at their tenacity in the face of cold, unconcerned adults, and what neglect (or worse) they can survive. I like your thought that Charles Dickens might have been drawing on his blacking factory experience to some extent. He never could bring himself to forgive his parents. so although his situation was nowhere as bad as the workhouse children's, he could probably empathise with their feelings
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."1 Corinthians 13:2 (NIV)
There is no major difference. The King James Bible is perhaps the most beautiful, but the NIV means to reach everybody. However the Bible as translated by Darby is said (by a pastor I know) to be sticking very much, if not the most, to the Greek text.
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Yes, Jane and Petra - that was one of the "advantages" to the 1834 act, punishing unwed mothers and making their lives even more at risk. But as long as it kept the books straight ... 🙄
(I seem to be picking up Charles Dickens habitual irony!)
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This is spot on! Actually it is interesting to consider why Oliver is as he is. Some critics argue that he is not realistic and just there to make the allegory work. Other maintain that Charles Dickens had a overly sentimental attachment to what is rather nastily described as the "noble poor".
We'll have to see what we think as we read on. So far, I think Oliver is completely believable! I especially like this observation of yours:
"Despite their hunger and destitute lives, it's telling that these boys were bound together by their circumstances"
Yes, and aren't we all like that?
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I think many modern readers assume it is exaggerated, as you did, Sue K.H, just as it's assumed the boarding schools Charles Dickens describes up North in his next novel (where reasonable well-off fathers sent any unwanted children they were landed with) could not possibly be so bad. But there is plenty of evidence on record of a real "Dotheboys Hall" for instance, and all the little boys who died while they were there.
These workhouse scenes must have been such an eye-opener for some of Charles Dickens's wealthier readers.
I'm so glad you're enjoying it Sue, and hope that these threads may prompt others who have not read Oliver Twist for a while, to open the book ...
And Sue-with-the-flower (not the same Sue) - Thanks for picking up on the unremitting sarcasm.
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Do we know what happened to Jim Jarvis?
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Not specifically I don't think Teresa, but we do know that all the boys were schooled and taught a trade, so hopefully he had a long and happy life! Charles Dickens was to visit a Ragged School in 1843, just 5 years after writing Oliver Twist and was deeply moved by what he experienced. That visit inspired A Christmas Carol.
Then Dr Barnardo opened his own Ragged school in 1867. The Ragged School Museum in London's East End is closed at the moment, but as soon as it opens in the summer I will report back!
https://berliedoherty.com/dr-barnardo...
This chapter, perhaps even more so than the first, was striking in its mixture of depictions of deadly abuse and neglect, and black humor."[The workhouse] was a regular place of public entertainment for the poorer classes; a tavern where there was nothing to pay; a public breakfast, dinner, tea and supper all the year round; a brick-and-mortar elysium, where itwas all play and no work."After all, a soup kitchen is exactly the same as a street cafe in France, a relaxing and fun vacation. 🙄 As in the first chapter, the bureaucratic notion that assistance to the poor should be punitive is given a thorough roasting. And as mentioned in posts above, there's embezzlement and corruption on top of that.
I've now read that very famous scene, and it's earned its fame. I just loved, and even chuckled a little at, the horrified responses to Oliver's simple plea, like he'd started a workhouse riot or something. ("We're the real victims here!" say the well-fed runners of the establishment.) (I can only imagine riots happened now and then--not everyone has the temperament to quietly accept cruel treatment)
Illustrations in comment 141: I especially liked Copping's, which shows the bowl being near the same size as the spoon, as was described in this chapter.
Jean in comment 149: "In a short space of time 73 boys had been discovered." - they found no girls? I can guess as to why. (1) exploited as domestic labor, as Charlie in Bleak House was before she joined another household (2) another form of exploitation that would occur after a girl had reached menarche. Both would keep girls indoors.
I can see why the Beadle puppet would scare a young child Jean! The expression it must have had...Looking at the Cruikshank illustration, I'm struck by how none of the boys really have shadows vs how dark Mr Bumble's is, and how short... It's almost as if he is taking all thier shadows to make his.
Just read first two chapters! Feel so into the story already So… fave quote so far?!
Obviously “please sir i want some more” is an obvious
but personally “let me see the child and die” cracks me up for some reason! I think because it sounds so extreme!
Bring on this read!
Just finished the second chapter . . . poor Oliver! To call Mrs. Mann a "humane woman" is ironic indeed!But I was struck by how brave Oliver was to ask for more! Yes, they drew lots, but I wonder how many other boys might have been too afraid to do it. He's had nothing but bad treatment and must've known by then how poorly that request would be received! I find his pluckiness in the face of extreme hardship impossible not to root for.
Thanks for all the extra background information; I'd had no idea what "picking oakum" was.
Another one that stumped me was "half baptised," which from the footnotes appears to mean a baptism without the full church ceremony. I had never heard of that either. What an officious and petty way for the beadle to refer to Oliver in my mind, as if any God would care more about the manner of the ceremony rather than the act itself, as ridiculous as calling someone half married or half born. Perhaps this was a common term in those days though?
yes i bet most of the other boys wouldn’t have actually asked even if their lot was drawn!! none as plucky as our oliver
What a joy - back to Dickens. I had not read Oliver in several years and was amazed all over again in the first chapter. Dickens gives us great descriptions of people, places, situations - all in his great style, i.e., "well, you don't have to believe, I am just giving you the truth of the world, society, etc." But Dickens is best at satire - i.e., if the poor baby had the best of doctors and nurses, it would be dead by now but the poor village doc and midwives pulled the baby through. And I cheated and went on to Chapter 2 - same satire, making fun of people who are full of themselves and the awful job society does for the poor. Dickens says the same thing about pompous people who only take up space on the earth and contribute nothing of value to society. I love him. Thanks for doing this, BJ.
When it came to style and approach in describing an unsavory situation, Dickens was an unparalleled master in the use of sardonic wit. It might be said that he invented that mode of expression in literature, later emulated by numerous writers over the succeeding years; O. Henry and Jeanette Winterson immediately come to mind. I just finished reading A Complicated Kindness by Miriam Toews, who has obviously become a modern-day master of that technique, rendering what would otherwise make for dismal reading a delightfully entertaining experience while never losing sight of the underlying tragedy..
Extraordinarily informative comment, Jim. Thanks.
I noticed that Oliver, like Pip in Great Expectations, was "raised by hand."As Peter Ackroyd points out in Dickens Life and Times, CD was already 25 at the start of Victoria's reign, and he had a strong connection to Romanticism and Sentimental literature. So, it's fascinating to see how he combines the strong emotional tone with social realism. Although we associate CD with Victorian England/literature, he is really the ultimate anti-Victorian in his distrust of Utilitarian solutions to social problems and his love of whimsy, color, and characters who exist on the perimeters (especially actors and circus performers).
Jim wrote: "When it came to style and approach in describing an unsavory situation, Dickens was an unparalleled master in the use of sardonic wit. It might be said that he invented that mode of expression in l..."Hi Jim. Although I agree with your point about Dickens' mastery of sardonic wit, there is plenty of it in 18th-century lit. Dickens loved Tobias Smollett, who in turn was heavily indebted to Laurence Sterne for the tone of his more successful works.
Looking up Sardonicism in good old Wikipedia, it describes risus sardonicus, "an apparent smile on the face of those who are convulsing because of tetanus or strychnine poisoning." To me, that is a perfect image of sardonic wit.
Jean, Michael, thank you for the additional info!Michael, oh, if the editors were to remove the offending word, what would they do with the illustrations, all of which, as Connie has noticed, focus on the same quality?.. :)
Erich, I noticed this 'brought up by hand', too! Apparently, younger Dickens did not pounce at clichés as much as his older version.
'But nature or inheritance had implanted a good sturdy spirit in Oliver’s breast.' - Might be another hint at Oliver's mysterious provenance.
Mrs. Mann has a very unwomanly name, which quite corresponds to the way she goes about her womanly job. And Mr Bumble's name is, of course, cratylic. What are we to expect from Oliver Twist? :)
I've noticed this characteristic of Oliver:
'Young as he was, however, he had sense enough to make a feint of feeling great regret at going away.'
And, tellingly:
'“The boy is a fool—I thought he was,” said the gentleman in the white waistcoat.'
So we're sure Oliver is not a fool, because this gentleman very likely is :)
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I think you ascertained why, sadly. And also that young girls would be assumed to be responsible for looking after their young siblings - even when they were quite tiny themselves. Remember Charley Neckett in Bleak House, who had sole charge of her little brother and sister (view spoiler)
"This chapter, perhaps even more so than the first, was striking in its mixture of depictions of deadly abuse and neglect, and black humor...
Great post!
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Obviously “please sir i want some more” is an obvious ..."
Yes! I wonder if this might the most famous line in 19th century literature! Surely in the top 10, anyway 😊
Glad you're enjoying it so much, and Janz too.
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This is mind-boggling, and makes me wonder how may thousands of them there must have been at workhouses, over the years 🤔 Thank you for picking up on this hidden tragedy!
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Oh yes! And thank you for the later examples. I think we can all give an eye to a few modern writers who might employ this technique, and thank Charles Dickens - and his predecessors. Because as Erich reminds us, 18th century novelists excelled in this, and this is where Charles Dickens patterned his work.
His early novels in particular owe much to his favourite authors, whom he read over and over again after the age of 8. He especially liked comic, picaresque ones, and bildungsroman - and Charles Dickens was to write stories like these himself. He was also to tell us the names of his favourite novels by making them David Copperfield's own favourites as a boy: that is completely lifted from his own life.
Perhaps you remember that we read The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling by Henry Fielding after having a poll of all his favourites, so we could see his influences. They included the two authors Erich mentioned (he loved [book:The Life & Opinions of Tristam Shandy, Gentleman by Laurence Sterne.)
In many ways Charles Dickens is more of an 18th century author than a 19th century one, especially at this stage in his career.
Erich - Thank for looking up the derivation of "Sardonicism" - how extraordinary!
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Remember, there's no new chapter today everyone! It's a catch up with reading the posts and thinking day. So please hold your horses if they are champing at the bit ...
Wiktionary gives a later example, from 'Anne of Green Gables', in the meaning of 'bottle- or spoon-fed, not breastfed'; in 'Great Expectations', though, there's also another meaning attached to the phrase, that of physical abuse - I think Erich and I were wondering if Dickens meant this phrase to have this double meaning in this earlier work.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Ah I didn't remember Anne of Green Gables well enough to pick that up. But in the case of infants in Charles Dickens it would be neglect and manhandling by the aunties, relatives and nurses he mentions in chapter 1. In the case of older children, beatings.
Therefore as I said, it is usually used as a euphemism by Charles Dickens; ideal for his ironic purpose, with its double meaning.
Jean, thank you for the information about Dr. Barnardo (sp?). I find it interesting that so many people had his surname. What fabulous background information provided by everyone. Wow. I have nothing to offer but an immense appreciation for Dickens’ use of words and his understanding of human nature. And I am so thankful that he gives us the opportunity to laugh even though we shouldn’t be laughing. Sardonic now has new meaning for me. Thank you Erich.
Thank you, Jean, for all of the background material and to everyone else who added more information. I previously read the book, saw one version of the play eons ago and then, of course, I watched the movie Oliver.Oliver's famous words stunned me because I remembered them wrong: I thought they were "Please, sir, may I have some more." Those words are so polite compared to the bold "Please, sir, I want some more."
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Oliver Twist (other topics)Oliver Twist (other topics)
David Copperfield (other topics)
The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Dickens' London (other topics)
Our Mutual Friend (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)John Forster (other topics)
Judith Flanders (other topics)
George Eliot (other topics)
Harry Furniss (other topics)
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This is quite a short installment, but with lots of content and import. What did you think? (Reactions and ideas are great, but no anticipating the future action if you know it already, please!) Please use tomorrow’s free day to ponder, read through the extra information if you are interested, and we move on on Thursday.