Dickensians! discussion

Oliver Twist or, The Parish Boys Progress
109 views
Oliver Twist - Group Read 5 > Oliver Twist: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 8

Comments Showing 251-300 of 451 (451 new)    post a comment »

message 251: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 06:49AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Lee - "he is so intensely preoccupied in Chapters 1-3 with informing the reader of the hideous current conditions existing for the poor that he cares less for developing a character in Oliver"

This contrasts with (or perhaps complements) Sam's thought that "the character types work exceptionally well here and more fully rounded characters would have changed the reception of the book, perhaps making it less of a classic."

What we all need to bear in mind is that Charles Dickens had no idea at this stage that he was writing a novel and would therefore need to sustain the character of Oliver Twist - (if indeed he does! He has a habit of killing off children in his works and characters who are not popular. He also decided in one case Martin Chuzzlewit, that the novel's title would actually refer to another character in the novel than we expect ...)

The point is though, that we are now up to March 1837. Charles Dickens was writing The Pickwick Papers as well as these short chapters of Oliver Twist. In fact he discovered that Richard Bentley was docking his pay because they were so short, so he began to fill up the rest of his space in "Bentley's Miscellany" with other pieces. He nearly stopped writing Oliver Twist completely! In August 1837 he decided to write no more of Oliver Twist and to resign the editorship of "Bentley's Miscellany". But I'll write about that when if happens, as clearly he didn't carry this out, to our great relief!

You see at this stage these chapters were not parts of a novel, but short, sarcastic and episodic pieces featuring a young boy, to be part of the "Mudfog Papers". This makes the "prescience" and "foreshadow[ing] of extremely complicated plots and themes" picked up by Sam and Lee all the more remarkable!


message 252: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 06:50AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Differing interpretations along the way are fascinating, and in view of the last post, it's possible that Charles Dickens had not decided what to make Oliver like ultimately. He did change the entire story lines for some of his characters. Perhaps Beth, you will continue to view Oliver as having "animal cunning", or perhaps you will change your mind and be won over by him, or perhaps you will decide that actually his psychology cannot be looked at with these eyes, as he is an idealised boy to make the allegory work. Who knows? The original readers will have had all these thoughts, and others.

There are some great posts here, and I'm tempted to reply to several more of the excellent points raised, just as there were yesterday (such as Michael's post about the artwork), but I do feel we should move on - and perhaps pick some of them up over the next day or so.


message 253: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 06:56AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
But first ...

Sam - "I left off commenting on the second chapter, partially to make room for others and partially because I wanted to quietly enjoy a feeling of awe I had from reading the chapter."

This is great! Thanks for your sensitivity here 😊 And no, it isn't "too long" at all, Sam, but very focused and interesting. I do enjoy what others bring to our reads, and all the various interpretations.

First though, I hope everyone know that the "tips" I posted were designed to help, not to inhibit anyone from posting their thoughts! I'd be extremely unhappy if I thought that members were put off posting, or worried in some way. I'm really just asking everyone to be aware and alert that we are in a huge read.

When someone says they are getting lost already, and it's only chapter 2 with 50 more to go, something had to be said! I'm sure everyone will get used to it, but discussing in a linear format like this is tricky. You know of course that the latest post is what is seen, and we have to work at using this rather basic format. The only tools we really have are the search field within the group (to the right) and the links we can make. And no, mods don't have any extra, magic ones, except to delete 🙄

Anyway, it's great so far! And our other reads of novels have been incredibly rewarding! Thanks everyone 😊


message 254: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 07:25AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Chapter 4:

Disappointed, the workhouse board instruct Mr. Bumble to look for a trading vessel that will take Oliver as a ship’s boy. The narrator comments that they are hoping that the master of the vessel will flog him to death. But before the beadle can set off on his mission, Mr. Sowerberry, the parish undertaker, offers to take on an apprentice.



"Liberal terms, Mr. Sowerberry, liberal terms!" - James Mahoney 1871

Mr. Sowerberry was "a tall gaunt, large-jointed man, attired in a suit of threadbare black, with darned cotton stockings of the same colour, and shoes to answer. His features were not naturally intended to wear a smiling aspect, but he was in general rather given to professional jocosity."



"Mr. Sowerberry - Joseph Clayton Clarke ("Kyd") c. 1900

He and Mr. Bumble joke about the situation:

“I say you’ll make your fortune, Mr. Sowerberry,” repeated Mr. Bumble, tapping the undertaker on the shoulder, in a friendly manner, with his cane.
“Think so?” said the undertaker … “The prices allowed by the board are very small, Mr. Bumble.”
“So are the coffins.”


Mr. Bumble takes Oliver to the Sowerberrys that very night.



"Mr. Bumble and Oliver Twist" - Harold Copping 1924

There Oliver meets Mrs. Sowerberry, “a short, thin, squeezed-up woman, with a vixenish countenance”, who orders that Oliver be fed the scraps that had been put aside for the dog, commenting on how small he is. Mr Bumble assures her:

“But he’ll grow, Mrs. Sowerberry—he’ll grow.”
“Ah! I dare say he will,” replied the lady pettishly, “on our victuals and our drink.”


Oliver, amazed by the offer of meat, gobbles them up greedily. Mrs. Sowerberry then sends him to sleep under the counter among the coffins in the shop.

This is the end of the second installment. We now have a day free, before we begin the third installment, with chapter 5.


message 255: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 07:56AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
What a name: Sowerberry! It seems perfect, a sour sort of person (especially the wife) but also the word berry which in the London accent sound like bury—which is of course their profession! This chapter is full of witty dialogue, but we also still have the savage irony, with the Board hoping "in a playful mood" that Oliver would be flogged to death.

This installment makes me think of the huge contrasts again, between those who were poor and those who were better off financially. We constantly read of the terrible oppression of the poor, and the humiliations and beatings Oliver is subjected to. Cruelty and abuse seemed to be an accepted way of life, for those with no power. They were essentially in a prison, being punished, and virtually slaves in all but name.

As I mentioned, Charles Dickens was still writing episodes of the The Pickwick Papers each month, as well as each new installment of Oliver Twist. It makes us wonder how Charles Dickens would feel, when he had to switch mood to write both of these at the same time. There are quite a few months when the first serial novel was not yet finished, but the second serial had already started.

And if he had started with Oliver Twist, how would his readers view him? They would think he was a very different sort of author—a very angry one indeed—to be so sarcastic! And yet as we know Charles Dickens kept this social conscience, and also his irrepressible sense of humour, all through the rest of his novels.


message 256: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 07:31AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Mr. Bumble

Well here I am, saying that Mr. Bumble is one of Charles Dickens’s favourite caricatures—which he is—but what about the part where Oliver was crying piteously? Mr. Bumble regarded him “with some astonishment, for a few seconds; hemmed three or four times in a husky manner; and after muttering something about ‘that troublesome cough’, bade Oliver dry his eyes and be a good boy.”

Wow, compassion from a beadle! Who can say now that Mr. Bumble does not have a heart? And did you notice that it was only when Oliver “looked in his companion’s face, with tears of real agony that Mr. Bumble revealed his feelings.

Faces again—a throwback to chapter 1. While Oliver’s face was hidden he was not a real person, but merely a statistic. Similarly, it was only when the chief magistrate saw Oliver’s terrified face over the inkstand, did it give him pause for thought. The face reveals the truth.

Even these early characters have more depth than we might at first think. But because Charles Dickens wants to satirise them, sometimes he has to emphasise their stereotypical aspect. When Charles Dickens’s characters seem a bit caricatured, his social criticism seems to be all the more evident.


message 257: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 07:49AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
There’s a paragraph near the end where Charles Dickens wishes that:

“some well-fed philosopher, whose meat and drink turn to gall within him; whose blood is ice, whose heart is iron; could have seen Oliver Twist clutching at the dainty viands that the dog had neglected”

and fervently wishes that “the Philosopher” could experience eating the same sort of meal himself.

This is an savage example of one of the instances I mention in my post The Poor Law and Workhouses (see chapter 1). Charles Dickens is directly criticising Jeremy Bentham and utilitarianism, and the economist Thomas Malthus, because of how the theories are implemented.


message 258: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 07:36AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
There were a couple of points which I thought foretold events in Charles Dickens's later novels. The first was the idea of sending Oliver to sea, in the hope that this would be the end of him (as flogging and beatings with an iron bar were common on board a ship). This reminds me of a part in Dombey and Son(view spoiler).

Also from that same novel, (view spoiler). It must have been a regular thing, but I think Oliver might prefer it to sleeping in the coal cellar, even if he is surrounded by coffins!

The second link with our other group reads (which were of course written later), was Mr. Bumble’s cloak skirt, which enveloped Oliver while he walked beside the beadle, as Oliver was so tiny. I immediately thought of A Christmas Carol, and the (view spoiler). And of course, Oliver represents, or embodies, both of these as well.

I wonder if the same thoughts had occurred to you too!


message 259: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 07:43AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
This concludes installment 2, so we have a day free to catch up and read the posts, and move on to the next chapter on Sunday. Any thoughts about chapter 4?


Claudia | 935 comments Another heart-wrenching scene in ch. 4 when Oliver is given the food left uneaten by Trip the dog, himself out for a trip.

In Les Misérables (written btwn 1845 and 1862, but 8 years untouched and thoroughly rewritten in 1860-1862 during Hugo's exile on Guernsey), Cosette sleeps in a corner under a staircase and is once called by Mme Thénardier "Mademoiselle Chien-faute-de-nom". Nobody but the dog is friends with her. When the dog dies, she has no friend anymore.

The Thénardiers symbolise private violence (physical and emotional) toward the scapegoat of their own frustrations, Cosette. Mr Bumble and the man with the white waistcoat, and the Board, symbolise institutional violence toward a collective scapegoat, Oliver Twist, himself an archetype of all orphans caught up in this inhumane system, and "so very lonely".

Victor Hugo and Dickens are dealing very differently with this human tragedy in their way of writing. Dickens uses irony, sarcasm and a dark humour while Hugo, whose purpose was very much the same as Dickens, writes dramatically yet poetically without any slight hint of humour. While now rereading Part II, Book 3 of Les Misérables for the umpteenth time... tears could not help gather.

Dickens is mostly keeping a safe distance, thanks to his biting irony, but it doesn't make Oliver's situation less sad. I wish a Jean Valjean would turn up.


Kathleen | 488 comments I appreciate you drawing our attention to the faces, Jean. Very poignant.

I was struck by Mr. Bumble’s buttons. “The die is the same as the porochial seal--the Good Samaritan healing the sick and bruised man.” A little irony there, too.


Erich C | 643 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "The only tools we really have are the search field within the group (to the right) and the links we can make."

For those who may not be aware:

If you have the ability to leave the window with the discussion open on your computer, you can refresh it and it will add the new comments but keep your place. Alternatively, on the group homepage at the current group reads link for OT, there is a "new comments" in red that will take you to comments that have been added since you last visited.


message 263: by Erich C (last edited May 05, 2023 08:55AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Erich C | 643 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Mr. Bumble’s cloak skirt, which enveloped Oliver while he walked beside the beadle"

It occurred to me to comment on that powerful symbolic image, but I hadn't made the connection to A Christmas Carol. You're right!

When I saw the earlier comment (254) with the illustration of Bumble leading Oliver, I noticed that the artist had neglected to include that detail (understandably).


message 264: by Anna (new) - rated it 5 stars

Anna | 29 comments Kathleen wrote:

I was struck by Mr. Bumble’s buttons. “The die is the same as the porochial seal--the Good Samaritan healing the sick and ..."


That also struck me forcefully, Kathleen. What a devastating comment on doing the opposite as the Good Samaritan, but making him the example for the beadle's button.


message 265: by Beth (last edited May 05, 2023 10:57AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments
"Well," replied the undertaker, "I was thinking that if I pay so much towards [the poor's rates], I've a right to get as much out of 'em as I can, Mr. Bumble...
Pure tragedy of the commons thinking from Mr. Sowerberry, that the "public good" is subservient to "my own good," or that tax coffers are a kind of bank that payors can withdraw from at will.

I'm torn between thinking the writing is too dour and abrasive, and shuddering that Dickens provides a milder picture of these orphans' conditions than existed in real life. a 10% survival rate is horrific.


message 266: by Jenny (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jenny Clark | 388 comments I had some hope for Oliver with the Sowerberrys, as Mr Sowerberry while not nice at least seamed to not be cruel, but Mrs Sowerberry rather dashed those hopes.
I know the connection to Anne of Green Gables has been mentionedand I saw it here too, in the way that orphans are thought to be trouble makers even when they haven't done anything.


message 267: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 04:03PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Claudia wrote: " I wish a Jean Valjean would turn up ..."

😀 This is like Kathleen's thought about Peggotty in David Copperfield! Hopefully we won't have to wait for long. Surely Charles Dickens can't put Oliver through too much more ... though as Beth says, a "10% survival rate is horrific".

Claudia - I very much like your comparison between the style of Charles Dickens and Victor Hugo. I confess, I do like some humour and wit in novels, (which is probably why I prefer classics to modern literary novels, in general).

Erich - Thank you very much for that tip!


message 268: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Kathleen and Anna - great point about the buttons! Buttons seem to be quite a motif with Charles Dickens ... remember when Peggotty (view spoiler) when David was a little boy.

Jenny - Orphans as troublesome nuisances do seem to feature in several 19th century novels, don't they? We've had mention of Anne of Green Gables (a little later at 1908) and Jane Eyre a couple of times. Charles Dickens did admire Jane Eyre, although he believed the character was too "good" - which is extraordinary, since he wrote many such virtuous females himself!

I believe Oliver Twist was the first though, so perhaps he put the idea of an innocent, maltreated orphan in people's minds. Oliver often seem to be hidden in cellars, or locked rooms and I'm sure that this hiding away of an unwanted child is a common theme later. It's metaphorical too.


message 269: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 05, 2023 04:05PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Erich C wrote: "I noticed that the artist had neglected to include that detail (understandably)..."

I agree it would be difficult to portray that image of Oliver enveloped in the beadle's cloak. I do find Mr. Bumble's character quite layered in this chapter. We see aspects of him - kinder aspects - that we haven't seen before. Did anyone else think this?

I like Harold Copping's work very much, but sadly he only produced two illustrations for Oliver Twist - and we've had them both already!


message 270: by Michael (last edited May 05, 2023 04:07PM) (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments The whole scene about Mr. Bumble's buttons is infused with satire and dark humor. Mr. Bumble, showing a lack of self-awareness, admits he first wore the buttons at a coronary inquest concerning the death of an indigent "tradesman”. The undertaker Mr. Sowerberry, in his dry way, points out to Mr. Bumble the coronary jury found fault with the “relieving officer”. Was the “relieving officer” Mr. Bumble himself? He had a vitriolic response when Mr. Sowerberry brought up the jury’s finding.

Not sure how much I should read into Mr. Bumble’s attack on juries and the common people who sit on juries. Juries are one of the hallmarks of the English legal system; so important as to be listed in the Magna Carta. His arguments are ones I would expect from someone defending aristocratic privilege. Considering how Mr. Bumble acts in his beadle's uniform he sure acts like an aristocrat.

This novel is relentless in its dark humor and satire. Dickens is in full polemical mode.


message 271: by Petra (new) - rated it 4 stars

Petra | 2173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "You see at this stage these chapters were not parts of a novel, but short, sarcastic and episodic pieces featuring a young boy, to be part of the "Mudfog Papers". This makes the "prescience" and "foreshadow[ing] of extremely complicated plots and themes" picked up by Sam and Lee all the more remarkable..."

Jean, thank you for this information. I did not know this. It's incredible how the story is working as a novel, even in these beginning chapters.
I'm very glad that Dickens didn't put Oliver away and continued his story.


message 272: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments I can see stylistically how these are written as independent sections, not really chapters. They don’t have the same fluid movement into the next as in later books. I wonder, were the chapter headings added later or were they contemporaneous with each chapter’s release?


message 273: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 06, 2023 04:48PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Sue wrote: "were the chapter headings added later or were they contemporaneous with each chapter’s release?..."

This is an excellent question Sue! I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer (at least yet) because I haven't managed to track down a first edition of each installment in Bentley's Miscellany! Certainly by the time of the 3 volume book in 1838, the chapter headings were there, but there were changes in the 1839 and 1841 editions. (Critics call these the "early editions".)

John Forster talks of the 1838 book in The Life of Charles Dickens: The Illustrated Edition (vol 2 chapter 3) ALERT* for spoilers! http://victorian-studies.net/CD-Forst..., and he was there at the time, but does not go into this question.

This next link is to is a scholarly article on "The Chapter Numbering in "Oliver Twist" by Joan Schweitzer ALERT* This one is absolutely packed with spoilers, as it launches straightaway into discussing the whole book https://www.jstor.org/stable/24301069...

It details the changes in each edition, as Charles Dickens made minor changes to the text, which would not necessarily affect the titles, but he also juggled the chapter beginnings and endings e.g. he altered the end of chapter 12 and wrote a new sentence for chapter 13, chapter 29 was spilt into 2 at one point and made a new chapter 30, chapter 43 was also split into 2, so that later editions had 2 extra chapters than the early ones, and that sort of thing.

There are many of these, where Charles Dickens was evening out the chapter lengths, or he decided that one part would be a better cliffhanger, so he closed it there. Some of these necessitate a change of chapter title. The Gutenberg edition takes the 1839 text, (i.e. the 2nd edition) as I think most do. Plus the first 3 volume edition was published before the original installments had finished! He had decided to reveal himself as Charles Dickens then, even though, oddly he reverted to the name "Boz" for one of these! I think some changes are rather whimsical.

So the closest I can get is that they may vary a little, and a couple were definitely added. But I think Charles Dickens will have had titles, or even epigraphs, right from the start, as this was very much the 18th century way he was used to, and he was to keep that style for most of his novels.

The enormous book I have with all the extant facsimiles of his first texts for novels, Dickens' Working Notes for His Novels edited by Harry Stone, frustratingly does not have anything at all for Oliver Twist, saying that it has "the most troubled beginnings of any of his novels". It certainly does!


message 274: by Brenda (new) - added it

Brenda | 41 comments Karin, thank you for the information about George Mueller. I’ve saved it to read later. And Claudia, I appreciate your comparison to Les Miserables. I too am waiting for Jean Valjean!

So much trouble to make sure coffins are the right size with imported handles and that Mr. Bumble has Good Samaritan buttons, yet no one troubles themselves to feed and clothe these children.


message 275: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 06, 2023 02:05PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Brenda wrote: "no one troubles themselves to feed and clothe these children..."

Yes, good point Brenda - The irony is profound, and Charles Dickens himself famously detested the trappings of funerals. We are about to see this exemplified in the next chapter. And even now we see this hypocrisy, don't we, with some mourners sending flowers or turning up for funerals, even though they perhaps never bothered with that person in real life

Michael - I like your thoughts about Mr. Bumble. He's actually quite a difficult character to pinpoint, once we put the caricature aside. Is there a heart there? And what are his true beliefs? But perhaps he is just a jobsworth after all.

Petra - You are welcome and there is more on the composition later on 😊 I'm so happy you are able to join in this read, as I said, and hope that those of our other leaders who haven't yet joined in will be able to take part (I know it's early days yet) You all deserve this fun experience!


message 276: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 194 comments In these first 4 chapters of Oliver Twist, what I find most striking is that here we find Dickens as a man full of the vigor and impatience of youth. His wit is hard edged, sardonic, revealing a state of seething anger at the social injustices of his age, while also taking a great deal of personal satisfaction in puncturing the pompous and nettling the ridiculous.
By contrast, when I recall readings of novels from Dickens’ middle years (e.g. Dombey and Son or Bleak House) the mood became far more somber in tone; and his later works (such as Great Expectations or A Tale of Two Cities) are sweeping and mature in scale, leaving the brittle comedy of his youth far behind.
I cannot help wondering whether his readership matured along with him over that almost quarter century, as he became less focused on entertaining and provoking his audience and seemingly more inclined toward substance and depth.


message 277: by Petra (new) - rated it 4 stars

Petra | 2173 comments Jean, I'm very much reading along. I haven't had anything to add to these wonderful comments, hence my being quiet. I am, however, very much enjoying this story.

I find, on first glance, that the Sowerberry's may not be so bad, all things considered. They are the best of the three options we were shown for Oliver's future. In their care, Oliver will live. That's something that seemed slim if he went to sea or with the chimney sweep.

Jean, I chuckled when you said that "berry" would be pronounced "bury" in England. I'm now reading their name as Sourbury and loving the sound of it. It suits their personalities.


Janelle | 0 comments Bury/berry sound the same here in Australia too. (How else is it pronounced? I’ll have to google)


message 279: by Petra (new) - rated it 4 stars

Petra | 2173 comments Yes, I said that wrong. Bury and Berry sound the same but their spelling give them different meanings. I didn't associate the sound with Bury, so missed that connection completely.
I'm glad Jean pointed it out for me.


Janelle | 0 comments Ah, yes, adds another level to the cleverness of the name.


message 281: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Janelle and Petra - I actually pronounce "bury" to rhyme with "curry", but that's because my origins are Yorkshire. Londoners pronounce "bury" to rhyme with "cherry", so that's how Charles Dickens would have said it.

He's a sour berry for sure 😀 but his wife is even more tart!


message 282: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 11:00AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Jim wrote: "I cannot help wondering whether his readership matured along with him over that almost quarter century, as he became less focused on entertaining and provoking his audience and seemingly more inclined toward substance and depth ..."

I like your comment very much Jim! Yes it's hard to remember just how very angry the tone of this novel is, until a reread. The first time, it really hits you! It is most definitely the work of an impassioned young man. I believe it is only because he also had the great capacity to entertain, that he swept his audience along with him in his more hectoring passages 🤔


message 283: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 03:29AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Installment 3:

Chapter 5:


After an uneasy night, Oliver wakes up to the sound of someone kicking the door:



Noah Claypole - Joseph Clayton Clarke ("Kyd") c. 1900

It is Noah Claypole, who also works for Mr. Sowerberry:



"Did you want a coffin, Sir?" - Frederic W. Pailthorpe 1886

They go to the kitchen, where Charlotte, the serving girl, gives Noah “a nice little bit of bacon [saved] from master’s breakfast” and gives Oliver some stale bits of bread. They both taunt Oliver.

Three weeks later or a little more, Mr. Sowerberry decides that Oliver’s “expression of melancholy” would make the boy an effective mute—a professional mourner—at children’s funerals. When Mr. Bumble makes one of his regular visits to order a coffin, Oliver keeps well out of the way. Mr. Sowerberry then takes Oliver along to a poor dwelling where a woman has died, in order to learn about the undertaker’s profession. Her husband delivers a tearful and very emotional tirade against his wife’s death. She has starved to death, and he say that although he once tried to beg for her, the authorities sent him to prison for the offence. The dead woman’s mother seems senile, but begs for some bread and a cloak to wear for the funeral.

At the graveyard before the funeral, some ragged boys jump back and forth over the coffin to amuse themselves. Mr. Bumble beats a few of the boys, “to keep up appearances”. They have to wait for the clergyman, who rushes through the service in four minutes. Mr. Bumble quickly ushers the grieving family out of the cemetery, and Mr. Sowerberry takes the cloak away from the dead woman’s mother.

Oliver decides that he does not really like the undertaking business.


message 284: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 03:50AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
I wonder if you too noticed the change in tone as we began this installment. It is not unremittingly sardonic and savage commentary; there is more description. We see Oliver as a genuinely scared child, waking up among the coffins, “gaz[ing] timidly about him with a feeling of awe and dread, which many people a good deal older than he will be at no loss to understand.” I loved the idea of the elm boards looking like high-shouldered ghosts with their hands in their pockets!

But what a lonely, unloved little boy Oliver is;

“The boy had no friends to care for, or to care for him. The regret of no recent separation was fresh in his mind; the absence of no loved and well-remembered face sank heavily into his heart.”

We even have graveyard imagery, which as we’ve seen, Charles Dickens was often to link with his child characters:

“his heart was heavy, notwithstanding; and he wished, as he crept into his narrow bed, that that were his coffin, and that he could be lain in a calm and lasting sleep in the churchyard ground, with the tall grass waving gently above his head, and the sound of the old deep bell to soothe him in his sleep.”


message 285: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 03:43AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
What a swaggering oafish lump of a boy Mister Noah Claypole is! We can imagine him very easily, with his “red nose and yellow smalls”! Smalls here are thin trousers, more like underwear. We came across this description before in two of our group reads, so we know that Noah is the template for future characters. There is the young lad Biler, or Rob the Grinder; Polly Toodles’ eldest son, in Dombey and Son, who you may remember was also a product of a Charity School, (view spoiler) as was the odious Uriah Heep in David Copperfield.

So right from this early example, we suspect that Charles Dickens did not like Charity Schools.


message 286: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 05:46AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Often in Oliver Twist we hear the author’s voice, as Charles Dickens stops telling the story and speaks directly to the reader. This is a hangover from the 18th century novels which Charles Dickens so admired. Here we again see his frequent use of irony to satirise characters’ words and actions. For instance, in Chapter 5, he comments on Noah Claypole bullying Oliver:

“This affords charming food for contemplation. It shows us what a beautiful thing human nature may be made to be; and how impartially the same amiable qualities are developed in the finest lord and the dirtiest charity-boy.”

Charles Dickens is using a particularly sarcastic style here, saying that everyone enjoys looking down on somebody. We are told “Noah was a charity-boy, but not a workhouse orphan”, and thus has a feeling of superiority. But Charles Dickens is not furthering the plot, or even really describing Noah’s character. Instead, he is more judgemental about everyone, and sharing his private thoughts with us.

Another example is the way that the poverty of the mourners is set against the callousness of those involved in the funeral. The procession was hurried, the clergyman rushed through the service, as did the gravedigger, who probably didn’t dig deep enough … and the less said about Mr. Bumble’s thrashing, the better. The lack of compassion is extraordinary. But I did like this bit earlier:

“Thus saying, Mr. Bumble put on his cocked hat wrong side first, in a fever of parochial excitement; and flounced out of the shop.”

The grieving father might be epileptic; one of Dickens earliest observations of this condition. This could well have been why he found it so difficult to obtain work. And the old woman, his mother-in-law seems to be senile, a “wretched creature [who] mumbled and chuckled in her hideous merriment”, whereas Mrs. Sowerberry is one of his earliest depictions of a martyred woman, and her long-suffering husband, which were to become one of his favourite comic cameos. Dickens shows his keen eye for detail here.


message 287: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 03:52AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
But by far the most powerful part of the chapter for me, was the description of the squalid, dirty and miserable area where the dead woman had lived, and how the inhabitants “skulked along” the streets. What a marvellously ominous word—it makes us think of the skulls they will soon be. And where:

“The very rats, which here and there lay putrefying in its rottenness, were hideous with famine.”

Then we have the grieving man, who “twined his hands in his hair; and, with a loud scream, rolled grovelling upon the floor: his eyes fixed, and the foam covering his lips.”

This is such powerful melodramatic writing, it is sure to have been very affecting for his readers. It affected me, all these years later.


message 288: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 03:55AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Food is a continuing motif in Oliver Twist, and is necessarily tied to the ever-present theme of poverty. In these first two chapters, Oliver is given only bread, gruel, and onions. As a result he is weak.

However, Mr. Sowerberry, a middle-class professional, and his household (including Noah and Charlotte) eat much better than the paupers in the workhouse. Even though Oliver eats only scraps that might otherwise be given to the dog, they are often scraps of meat. It is also likely that he receives potatoes, some fresh vegetables, and possibly some fruit. Hopefully along with his diet, his health will begin to improve, and he will grow stronger in body and mind. He is now 10 years old.

And did you notice that “the grave was so full, that the uppermost coffin was within a few feet of the surface.” This actually pinpoints the novel quite clearly as the late 1830s. You might remember the detailed descriptions of burying grounds in our side read of The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Dickens' London by Judith Flanders. There was increasingly a problem with the overcrowding of these places, so that the coffins would be stacked on top of one another. Eventually, by the time he wrote the descriptions in Bleak House, the problem had got so bad that they were heaped up and decomposing.


message 289: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 04:02AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And a little more …

Victorian Mutes

“Mutes” were popular at Victorian funerals. The mute’s job was to stand vigil outside the door of the deceased, and then accompany the coffin, wearing dark clothes, looking solemn and usually carrying a long stick (called a wand) covered in black crape.

Charles Dickens disliked all the trappings of funerals, and famously forbade them at his own funeral, putting it into his will. He often wrote sardonically about these traditions, viewing them as pointlessly, and often ruinously, expensive. e.g. in Martin Chuzzlewit (though we haven't yet read this as a group) he was to say: “Two mutes were at the house-door, looking as mournful as could reasonably be expected of men with such a thriving job in hand.”

The child Oliver Twist is Charles Dickens's best-known mute, employed by the undertaker Sowerberry for children’s funerals. Most mutes, though, were adult males, and were common in several European countries from the 17th century onwards, as ceremonial ‘protectors’ of the deceased. The fashion was probably inspired by the ancient Roman practice of assigning lictors (bodyguards of civic officials) to escort the funerals of prominent citizens.

There are plenty of accounts of mutes in Britain by the 1700s, and by Charles Dickens’s time their attendance at even relatively modest funerals was almost mandatory. They were a key part of the Victorians’ extravagant mourning rituals.

Mutes died out in the 1880s/90s and were a memory by 1914. Interestingly, Charles Dickens’s writings contributed to their demise, in making them go out of fashion. Victorian funeral etiquette was complex and constantly changing, (as befitted a huge industry which partly depended on people being anxious to keep their status) to ensure that the huge profits which Charles Dickens criticised were maintained. But mutes also played a part in their own downfall, by being mournful and sober at the funeral, but often drunk shortly afterwards. This made them figures of fun. It’s unlikely that this would affect Oliver however!

In Britain, most mutes were day-labourers, paid for each individual job. In one tale out of the many stories told about them, one mute doubled up as a waiter at the meal after the funeral. The deceased’s brother asked him to approach a gentleman at the head of the table to say he wished to take a glass of wine with him. So he instantly changed his demeanour from friendly waiter to mournful mute, went up to the man and quietly said: “Please, sir, the corpse’s brother would like to take a glass o’wine wi’ ye.”

This may be apocryphal!


message 290: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 05:51AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And yet more …

Frederic W. Pailthorpe (1838-1914)

Frederic W. Pailthorpe is a British illustrator and engraver, partly contemporary with Charles Dickens, as you can tell from the dates. Like George Cruikshank, he knew Charles Dickens, but was younger (George Cruikshank was born in 1792 and died in 1878. He was an old man by the time he made the cover of cameos for the 10 part edition.) Frederic W. Pailthorpe however, was born the very year the three-volume edition of Oliver Twist was published by Richard Bentley. He made 21 coloured illustrations for the novel in 1885, 15 years after Charles Dickens had died.

We can tell from today’s illustration to chapter 5, that Frederic W. Pailthorpe consciously tried to illustrate scenes which George Cruikshank had not illustrated. He tended to do “before” and “after” scenes, as we saw with Mr. Bumble meeting Mrs. Mann at the gate in chapter 2, so that they complement those of George Cruikshank.

Several later artists we are familiar with, chose instead to illustrate a particularly dramatic scene e.g. coming up from the next chapter: chapter 6, where (view spoiler). But this was exactly the same scene as George Cruikshank had done! I'll post these tomorrow, so we can compare them. Because George Cruikshank only made one engraving per installment, there isn’t one for this chapter. Frederic W. Pailthorpe chose a scene around the time when Noah Claypole kicks at the door, expecting to be let in.

I find Frederic W. Pailthorpe interesting from this point of view, and also because he used colour, (watercolours), which is quite unusual. He still made the features slightly caricatured though, and like George Cruikshank, who was a friend of his, Frederic W. Pailthorpe also used satire in his interpretations of the novel’s scenes and characters. These images are very attractive to look at, as Kathleen has observed.

Sadly Frederic W. Pailthorpe did not provide any more images for Charles Dickens's books, except for another 21 wonderful set of watercolour illustrations for Great Expectations, also in 1885.


message 291: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 04:16AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Your comments on chapter 5?


Claudia | 935 comments Very interesting comments Jean!

Oliver, left alone sleeping in a "recess beneath the counter in which his flock mattress was thrust" feels like it "looked like a grave," and is so desperate that he "wished, as he crept into his narrow bed, that that were his coffin, and that he could be lain in a calm and lasting sleep in the churchyard ground, with the tall grass waving gently above his head, and the sound of the old deep bell to soothe him in his sleep."

The image of death, at its ease in a coffin maker's workshop, is a dramatic contrast with this orphaned child whom nobody wants but who is still alive in spite of all unfavourable circonstances. This scene seems to illustrate the white waistcoated man dark prophecy in the preceding chapters.

Victor Hugo in Les Misérables (1862) stages an uncommon and fleeting character, Sister Crucifixion, who with papal agreement has been sleeping for twenty years in her coffin, till her death when she is (illegally) buried in it according to her wishes, under the altar at her convent. The undertaker's coffin, now unused, provides a convenient means for Jean Valjean to be carried out of the convent and buried in her stead at a municipal graveyard. Valjean looses consciousness but, after a few adventures, is awaken again from the symbolic realm of the dead, in a powerful Christ-like metaphor, from Crucifixion to Resurrection, and begins a new life as a M. Fauchelevent. (Les Misérables and Oliver Twist have both very telling names)

Will our Oliver Twist awaken to a new and better life?


message 293: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments Jim wrote: "In these first 4 chapters of Oliver Twist, what I find most striking is that here we find Dickens as a man full of the vigor and impatience of youth. His wit is hard edged, sardonic, revealing a st..."

What a wonderful way of describing what I have felt reading Oliver Twist. I keep on reminding myself Dickens was only 25 years old.


message 294: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 12:12PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Claudia - Thank you very much for this excellent observation! Along with your earlier comparison with Les Miserables, it looks likely that Victor Hugo had Oliver Twist very much in mind, when he wrote his later 1862 novel. Starting it in 1845 (as you say) means Oliver Twist was probably in his mind as a recent novel.

Perhaps we should be alert for any similar metaphors echoed, and symbolism shared between the two.

Jenny - Absolutely, yes!


Kathleen | 488 comments Earlier this year I read The Nether World by George Gissing, who is often said to be similar to Dickens. A scene from early in that book came to mind when reading this chapter, where (view spoiler)

I enjoyed The Nether World, and found Gissing darker, but he was clearly influenced by Dickens!


message 296: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 07, 2023 07:01AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
That's interesting Kathleen. I've had George Gissing's New Grub Street on my "to-read" list for ever, but had picked up that although he had a similar conscience, themes and concerns to his near-contemporary Charles Dickens, he had none of his wit and humour. You seem to think so too - for good or bad. Perhaps it's a matter of taste.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 480 comments I haven't read Chapter 5 yet, but I have been keeping up with the schedule you set, Jean. Thank you for your excellent summaries, additional information and illustrations. I'm loving it all.

I'm glad I'm reading Oliver Twist with the Dickensians!, Jean, as I'm finding Charles Dickens' style so very different from the other books we've read together. It probably is due to his youth and a fervent desire to change the world, as Jim so perceptively pointed out, that made Dickens' style so abrasive and overbearing at times. I can't help comparing how he used the characters in Bleak House to point out the injustices of the Chancery Court, rather than the narrator's voice as he did in Oliver Twist.

Oliver really breaks my heart. I too wondered at times, as Beth pointed out, if Oliver had learned how to manipulate adults with his tears. But I don't think so. His tears were genuine, in my opinion. I know for myself, if I am overly tired or overly hungry or overly anxious, I am much more emotional and tears are likely to be shed much more easily. So, in his physical and emotional states of starvation, how much more would Oliver be driven to tears. Oh, I do hope he finds an angel soon to bring some joy to his life.

Thank you to everyone who has offered so much to this discussion already! It took me a while to get through all of the comments, but I didn't want to miss anything anyone posted.


message 298: by Chris (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris | 191 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Boy Chimney Sweeps

When I read this section in the chapter I was appalled at the nonchalance in Gamfield's description of the risks to the boys and some of the deaths that occurred with these young sweeps. Then I read your notes on the realities of chimney sweeps of those times. How awful!!! A far cry from the happy chimney sweeps ( and all older teens & adults) of the Mary Poppins movie!


message 299: by Chris (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris | 191 comments Anna wrote: "Kathleen wrote:

I was struck by Mr. Bumble’s buttons. “The die is the same as the porochial seal--the Good Samaritan healing the sick and ..."

That also struck me forcefully, Kathleen. What a de..."


Me too!! That description leapt off the page for me.


message 300: by Sue (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sue K H (sky_bluez) | 44 comments Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I haven't read Chapter 5 yet, but I have been keeping up with the schedule you set, Jean. Thank you for your excellent summaries, additional information and illustrations. I'm loving it all.

I'm g..."


Great point about using the narrator vs the characters, Shirley. I prefer his later style and Bleak House is my favorite of Dickens' novels but is one was still a 5 star read for me.


back to top