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Oliver Twist or, The Parish Boys Progress
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Oliver Twist - Group Read 5 > Oliver Twist: Intro comments and Chapters 1 - 8

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message 101: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 04:43AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And a little more …

The Poor Law and Workhouses:

The Victorian workhouse was an institution common to most localities. To make this familiar to all his readers, Charles Dickens actually draws attention to the fact that he does not give the town a name, nor state a date when the action takes place. The only essential fact is that the events occur in a workhouse. So we now know that Charles Dickens is going to deal with topics important to everyone, focusing attention on the workhouse by leaving its immediate setting vague. However, please see my posts 7-9 about a recent discovery!

The Poor Law of 1834:

Most of the social provisions in England at that time were based on economic theory. According to Jeremy Bentham, man’s actions are governed by the will to avoid pain and to strive for pleasure, and the government’s task was to increase the benefits of society by punishing and rewarding people according to their actions. We will notice that Charles Dickens constantly talks about philosophers in this context, in several of his novels, and this is what he has in mind.

Specifically, John Stuart Mill’s ideas about utilitarianism laid the foundations for the ideas behind workhouses, as he was also a Member of Parliament, as well as a philosopher and economist. Another influential economist here was Thomas Malthus, who was extremely pessimistic about the increase in population and the problem as he saw it, of keeping pace with resources.

If the poor were too comfortable in the workhouse, the argument went, they would not be motivated to work hard, so they were kept with minimum food, and spare conditions. Windows were too high for anyone to look out of, heating was nonexistent etc. You might remember that 9 years later Ebenezer Scrooge was to parrot these ideas in Charles Dickens's novella A Christmas Carol, feeling himself justified, as they were the law of the land.

The Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834 came into force just three years earlier than Oliver Twist. It following the Electoral Reform Bill two years before, and Charles Dickenswas heavily critical of it in many other things he wrote—both fiction and articles for his newspaper. He was in favour of reform, but not this way. For instance there was a new bastardy clause, which made single mothers solely responsible for “illegitimate” children. There is no doubt that Oliver Twist is a critique of this new reform, and the attitudes of officials (view spoiler) towards the poor as degenerate, evil, and responsible for their own destitution.

Previously it had been the duty of the parishes to care for the poor through alms and taxes. They could either go to the parish workhouse or apply for “outdoor relief”, which enabled them to live at home and work at outside jobs. Most of these were run according to Christian principles, and the workers treated kindly. But the new Poor Law of 1834 grouped parishes together into unions. Each union had a workhouse, and the only help available to poor people from then on was to become inmates in the workhouse. Families were separated, and all were clothed in a calico uniform. Remember the ending of this chapter, where Oliver was “badged and ticketed, and fell into his place at once”? His destiny is assured because of his clothes. Charles Dickens has taken this idea directly from Thomas Carlyle’s Sartor Resartus, in which clothing has the power to determine a person’s character. (Charles Dickens was a great admirer of Thomas Carlyle, and passages of A Tale of Two Cities repeat his book on the French Revolution almost word for word!)

Workhouse food was minimal, the work was incessant and hard, and beatings were common, meaning that early deaths were also common. The master of the workhouse had a lot of control, and was responsible for enforcing the 1834 Act’s policy: “to deter by unpleasantness the able-bodied poor”. Therefore cruel treatment was the norm; they were punished for being poor. We seem to have the villain of the piece already! The Workhouse Board, who decided that the poor inmates would only drink water from now on, and “three meals of thin gruel a day, with an onion twice a week, and half a roll of Sundays.”

In Oliver Twist Charles Dickens said with bitter sarcasm that the workhouse was little more than a prison for the poor. Civil liberties were denied, and all human dignity was destroyed. The inadequate diet instituted in the workhouse prompted his ironic comment that:

“all poor people should have the alternative … of being starved by a gradual process in the house, or by a quick one out of it.”


message 102: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 04:48AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And yet more …

Mudfog, and Changes in the Opening Words:

Usually in our group reads, it’s best not to have long quotations from the novel, please. After all, we all have the text! So it’s best if we all choose just a phrase or a couple of sentences, or an edited paragraph to make our point. This post though, is a bit of an exception.

Perhaps you are looking at your edition and puzzling as to why I said it is an unknown town. Most editions now begin:

“Among other public buildings in a certain town, which for many reasons it will be prudent to refrain from mentioning, and to which I will assign no fictitious name, there is one anciently common to most towns, great or small: to wit, a workhouse; and in this workhouse was born; on a day and date which I need not trouble myself to repeat, inasmuch as it can be of no possible consequence to the reader, in this stage of the business at all events; the item of mortality whose name is prefixed to the head of this chapter….”

However Charles Dickens originally wrote:

“Among other public buildings in the town of Mudfog, it boasts of one which is common to most towns great or small, to wit, a workhouse, and in this workhouse there was born on a day and date which I need not trouble myself to repeat, inasmuch as it can be of no possible consequence to the reader, in this stage of the business at all events, the item of mortality whose name is prefixed to the head of this chapter.”

All editions of Oliver Twist from about 1846 onwards use Charles Dickenss edited version, missing out the name of the town, to make it more applicable to all his readers. But I thought it was interesting to know where he imagined it to be, before he hid it in obscure references. Mudfog is a fictional town, based on Chatham in Kent, where Dickens spent part of his youth.

The Mudfog Papers began a month earlier, in February 1837, in the first issue of the monthly literary journal “Bentley’s Miscellany” which he was then editing, and continued to be published until 1838. You may remember that we had an excellent group read of this, hosted by Cozy_Pug, and that thread is well worth a look! The Mudfog Papers was an anthology of stories all written by Charles Dickens (as "Boz"), in which the learned society was satirically called “The Mudfog Society for the Advancement of Everything”.

This goes some way to explaining the heavily satirical nature of these first few chapters, because at first Charles Dickens had intended Oliver Twist to form part of the Mudfog Papers, before he decided to develop it into a serial novel. In January (just a couple of weeks after his first child was born) he told Bentley that he had “hit upon a captial notion” and expected the next issue to be “an exceedingly good one”. Referring to his hero, Oliver Twist he said “I have taken a great fancy to him—I hope he deserves it.”

But thinking now of Charles Dickens cutting out the name of the town, this is not just so make it a sort of “Everytown”. It’s also that by now his readers would recognise Mudfog as Chatham, and he probably did not want the Chatham residents objecting at having their town singled out as the place which has an appalling workhouse! Even the name “Mudfog” conjures up murk and filth.

But more on the workhouse system tomorrow!


message 103: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 05:12AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And even more, for those interested …

Biblical significance:

The writing style is so precise. With the references to faces, Charles Dickens may have been referencing I Corinthians 13 verse 12 in the Bible:

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face …”

(The Holy Bible: King James Version. The RSV - The Revised Standard Version Bible With Apocrypha - says “dimly” instead of darkly)

So this verse says that in our impure state, our vision of reality is tainted, like looking through a dark glass. But when we are pure, we see reality face to face, and we come to know God, as God knows us. Putting this in context in Oliver Twist, we see that the nurse attending the mother sips from a dark glass bottle. She is common and uncouth and doesn’t judge the mother accurately. Therefore she represents the one whose vision is impure, who “sees through a glass, darkly”.

The pauper goes on to tell us that she had 13 children of her own: “all of ’em dead, except two” 13 again, just as in I Corinthians 13, there are 13 verses. But the subtext implies that all of them are “dead” in the nurse’s heart.

And in chapter 2 of Oliver Twist we have a reference to I Corinthians chapter 13, verse 2, which I’ll detail tomorrow.


message 104: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 05:19AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
There’s lots to think about here. Please don’t worry, I won’t post so much every day! The summaries will be short, and linked to the beginning of the thread every day. So please just take from my group commentaries whatever interests you, and you would like to read.

Now over to you.


Claudia | 935 comments Yes, "deposited it in her arms", "its" forehead... I noticed that. Interesting comment on facts stated through a negative, Jean. Indeed the "wurkus" is a gloomy start into life but we feel how baby Oliver seems to be decided with the help of "Nature" to fight his way into a hard world.

This scene rang another (even more heart-wrenching) bell in me, Far from the Madding Crowd (1874), Thomas Hardy: Fanny in her late pregnancy arriving at the Casterbridge Union, chapter 39 and following.

"The old story, he said, shaking his head; no wedding-ring, I see."


message 106: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments The photograph is so telling, Jean. And yet, there is that boy on the right, leaning against the pole, smiling...truly smiling...as if he had found some joy in the midst of all this, in the simple act of having his picture taken.


message 107: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments Ms. Bionic wrote "They could either go to the parish workhouse", that provision was referred to as indoor relief. Dickens is showing the workhouse, also referred to historically as almshouses and poorhouses, as intended by the Elizabethan Poor Law of 1601. The parish took care of the basic needs, in an institutional setting, those who could not take care of themselves.

I was planning to make the same reference to the scene from "Far from the Madding Crowd" as Ms. Claudia.

I found this telling footnote concerning the Poor Law, in the context of the Late Georgian Era, from "A Mad, Bad & Dangerous People? England 1783-1846" by Boyd Hilton, part of the The New Oxford History of England series (one of the wittiest non-fiction titles I have ever encountered):

"For the contrast with Scotland, Ireland, and most of the rest of Europe, where relief was wholly or almost wholly voluntary."


message 108: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Indeed, interesting synchronicity from 30-odd years later Claudia. Time stood still, and society had sadly not moved on.

Sara, I find these photographs so poignant; the bare fee and grubby clothes stand out to me. Yet among all the squalor, as you say, we can glimpse joy and shy smiles. Thank you!


message 109: by Plateresca (new)

Plateresca | 566 comments Jean, Michael, thank you for your notes.

Bionic Jean wrote: "And time will tell whether the installments will contain humour, and of what type."

In the book I've mentioned in the other thread, The Artful Dickens: The Tricks and Ploys of the Great Novelist, John Mullan quotes some lines from this chapter in his chapter on humour in Dickens, so I'm reading them for the second time in a couple of weeks.
"'Rather misty': Dickens chooses an amused euphemism for the nurse's drunkenness over any indignation."

He concludes,
'Dickens is the novelist who best enables us to laugh when we should not laugh.'


I personally would not be laughing out loud at descriptions like this one, for instance:
'<...> there was considerable difficulty in inducing Oliver to take upon himself the office of respiration, — a troublesome practice, but one which custom has rendered necessary to our easy existence <...>'
But I can see how it can be more poignant than a more prosaic or even a more sentimental one.


message 110: by Brenda (new) - added it

Brenda | 41 comments Buckle up… we’re reading Dickens! The description of Oliver Twist ‘learning’ to breathe is so Dickens.

I noticed the doctor’s comment - ‘she was a good looking girl too. ‘


Kathleen | 488 comments I'm glad you mentioned the long first sentence, Jean. I'm a big fan of long sentences, and here, as is often the case, they give a richness to the text, maybe even hinting at the coming twists and turns!

My Oxford Illustrated edition incorrectly references the "Poor Law of 1824," instead of 1834 on the inside front cover. Seems a strange mistake?

I see a parallel with the book I'm concurrently reading, Steinbeck’s The Moon Is Down, about the invasion and occupation of a country and how the invader plans to use the country's coal. They want to give the people they have conquered just enough food to allow them to work the mines, just like the Poor Law provides for just enough comfort to keep the workers working hard. This reveals how tyrannical the poor law was, operating like invading conquerors! Power is power, I guess.


message 112: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 01:14PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Kathleen wrote: "My Oxford Illustrated edition incorrectly references the "Poor Law of 1824," instead of 1834 on the inside front cover. Seems a strange mistake? ..."

Yes, there was a Vagrancy Act in 1824, dealing with outdoor relief, and as Michael noted, Poor Laws had existed for a very long time. But the one I wrote a post about in message 102, which was implemented in such a cruel way, was The Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834.

If you'd like to know about them all, there's wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...

(There's nothing about Charles Dickens in this article, so no fear of spoilers, but it seems comprehensive.)

Michael - nice nuance there "relief was wholly or almost wholly voluntary" as opposed to the new, institutionalised English way.

Plateresca - on Charles Dickens - "... who best enables us to laugh when we should not laugh."

Very nice! John Mullan may well have the first 4 chapters of Oliver Twist in mind here, as they exemplify that perfectly!

Brenda - Yes!!


message 113: by Karin (new) - rated it 3 stars

Karin Anna wrote: "I'm looking forward to reading with the group. I will be reading on Project Gutenberg. It's very helpful to me because I have poor vision and can read on my 24" computer screen, enlarging the print..."

Yes, I think they are right. My library network doesn't have any copies of Oliver Twist in large print. You can find Oliver Twist in large print on Amazon but the two I found (there may be others) doing a browser search are self published sorts of things.


message 114: by Chris (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris | 190 comments It's a gloomy day here as I read this first chapter which did not provide an uplifting moment except that Oliver, although shunted aside, begins to cry. His first act to say I am here and alive!

I was so taken aback by the constant reference to the baby as "it", not even acknowledging that he is a boy. It certainly added to the lack of dignity and worth that the doctor & nurse viewed this infant. Just one more mouth to feed, a burden. We all know now how important that bonding is for an infant to thrive, it's a wonder that any baby does if neglected.


message 115: by Sam (new)

Sam | 443 comments This was a fantastic first chapter. One could probably devote a semester to teaching creative writing techniques based on elements from this chapter. First, thanks for the additional information Jean and for the comments everyone. Again, I stress how much more appreciation I gain for a work from these extras. Jean, where is a Trollopians group? Hint, Hint.

I also want to comment on Dickens use of humor. First, note the understatement. For example in the example Jean used where Dickens uses a negative to make a statement note how he opens that sentence with an understatement which sets up the negative punchline.
Also note how Dickens is mixing satire, sarcasm and irony through this chapter. They are all a bit different and I tend to blur the distinctions as they are often blurred in comedy, but in literary criticism there are differences and a Goodreads member once noted how I was lazily using one term in place of the right term in a review so people do notice. I love how Dickens is utilizing all of these in this first chapter.

What struck me most about the chapter was Dickens refinement of the narration from what we saw in The Pickwick Papers, which is IMO, one reason this book has about it, that sense of a timeless classic from the very start. Dickens' narrator in Oliver Twist has the the points already mentioned by Jean, but the reader feels a kinship with the narrator, a closeness, an intimacy. We really get a sense of a likable persona behind the writing but we are more bonded to that persona than in Pickwick. I would venture after reading the first chapture we have a clear defined picture in our heads of this narrator, his feelings and humanity. For despite Dickens harsh and critical portraits, I don't get an overt sense of judgement from the narrator, not of the doctor, the nurse, or the now passed mother. My sense is of the narrator's empathy. I am curious if this will continue through the novel.

Last note to Jane on a comment to an earlier post: I don't know whether Dickens used any series of repeated exclamations, but what I was trying to achieve was to affect a playful narration while making my points. I am afraid that more frequently I achieve confusion and even argument in a reader, but I am still trying.


Claudia | 935 comments Great comments Sam. Indeed as I am reading the following chapter I am more aware of all that you pointed out!


Bridget | 1004 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "This goes some way to explaining the heavily satirical nature of these first few chapters, because at first Charles Dickens had intended Oliver Twist to form part of the Mudfog Papers, before he decided to develop it into a serial novel. In January (just a couple of weeks after his first child was born)..."

Thanks for reminding me, Jean, of the heavy satire in the Mudfog stories. My edition of Oliver Twist cites the city in the first paragraph and I've read so many other stories since our excellent Mudfog read that I had forgotten all about that crazy town. You are so right to point out that connection, it explains a lot about the tone of the narrator in this first chapter.

The phrase that jumped out to me was when Dickens referred to Oliver as "the item of mortality". Could there be a more general, less human way to describe a baby? Oh, the sarcasm is thick there.

My edition's notes say Dickens may have been parodying the "Bills of Mortality" that were periodically published listing deaths in particular parishes. So perhaps that phrase is also ironic? Like Sam I am also, often lazy about using these terms correctly LOL. But I do think Dickens is writing on multiple levels in the chapter, and specifically with terms like "items of mortality".


message 118: by Lee (last edited May 01, 2023 12:32PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 504 comments Sam wrote: "I don't know how many of you have given thought to what you may bring to this particular read of the novel. Aside from my usual interests in what Dickens does with his prose to get the effects he d..."
"I would be interested in what others may be looking to get out of this read".
Sam, for myself, I am going to approach this novel in a more serious way that ever before, as I have read it several times before for the story and my fondness for little Oliver. Dickens had a purpose other than entertainment when he wrote Oliver Twist and it is that "purpose" in which I am most interested. In Dickens own Introduction to the Third Edition (1841) he states his desire to write something "which would be a service to society".

Separating fact from fiction will be my focus, and I will give attention to just how Dickens went about his making this novel purposeful.


message 119: by Greg (last edited May 01, 2023 11:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Greg | 201 comments After reading a string of relatively modern books, the elaboration of syntax was a pleasure. Kind of a nice change.

And Oliver's and his mother's predicament is quite moving, despite the sarcastic tone. The sarcasm is savagely humorous, like when he talks of the failure of Mrs. Thingummy's "consolatory perspective" with the poor mother. Of course, the last thing that a new mother in desperate straits would want to hear about is all of Mrs. Thingummy's dead children! Not the most empathetic of approaches!

I see you already pointed this part out Jean, but I'm a little puzzled by it. Why does he say that if Oliver had been surrounded by eager relatives, "nurses" and "doctors of profound wisdom" that he would have been killed in no time? Is this just a sarcastic comment about the quality of medical professionals in Dickens' time? The idea being that medical professional just made things worse? I suppose the medical profession still had a lot of superstition and claptrap in those days; a google search says that surgeons were still bleeding patients in some places until the late 1800s.


message 120: by Jenny (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jenny Clark | 388 comments This is a rather different first chapter to other Dickens books! It's interesting to see a young Dickens who is experimenting with style, and who most definitely has An Opinion! I can still see his love for characters here, and his love for all of humanity.


message 121: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 01:05PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Karin - The Charnwood edition of Oliver Twist, published by the very well established Ulverscroft publishers who specialise in Large Print, is on our group shelves, as I explained. LINK HERE and look at the cover. It is my favourite LP publisher, who use a beautifully clear 18 pt font for Charnwood classics.

Libraries in different areas can obtain different things, so Anna may be able to get this edition if she likes, or buy it from Amazon etc.


Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments Greg, I had the exact same question as you about the doctors, nurses, etc. I thought Dickens must be doing what you say- being sarcastic about the expertise of the medical professionals.

What a terribly sad reality poor Oliver was born into. I tried to read of any hope in this first chapter, but all I could find were despairing words - troublesome, burden, despised, pitied, feebly, pale face, etc.

The imagery of the death bed for his mother is haunting.


message 123: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 01:09PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Chris - Yes, I had the same reactions as you 😊

Sam - You amplified on so many great points. This writing comes as a bit of a shock, but it is so carefully constructed. I agree that it benefits from close examination.

I particularly like your observation that "we have a clear defined picture in our heads of this narrator, his feelings and humanity" Yes! And the readers of the time will have been conversant with the latest Poor Law in general, and certainly beginning to fear the workhouse, so would lap up an author sympathetic to criticism of the appalling conditions and most inhumane treatments.

Actually, there is an Anthony Trollope group - but it needs a mod! 😀 I keep an eye on it, hoping it will be taken on by someone (like I did with the Thomas Hardy group last year) - but really must not cannot! How about you doing it?


message 124: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 01:10PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Bridget wrote: "Dickens may have been parodying the "Bills of Mortality" that were periodically published listing deaths in particular parishes ..."

Great point Bridget! I hadn't picked that up. I'm pleased that you can match it with "Mudfog" in your mind. They seem so consistent in their tone, but we perhaps Oliver Twist will develop a style and life of its own, after the first few chapters. We shall see!

I'm really pleased you have an edition that cites "Mudfog" (the name of the city), as none of mine do!

As Sam said, Charles Dickens uses satire, sarcasm and irony (and I think I may have referred to all 3, as well as calling the tone "sardonic") and you have introduced "parody" into the mix. Yes, they have distinct meanings, which if we pause we can pinpoint, but they are all inter-related.


message 125: by Lee (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (leex1f98a) | 504 comments Sam wrote: "This was a fantastic first chapter. One could probably devote a semester to teaching creative writing techniques based on elements from this chapter . . . Also note how Dickens is mixing satire, sarcasm and irony through this chapter. "

Exactly, Sam. I found myself fumbling with the words sarcasm and irony in particular when describing this first chapter. Irony can be defined as using language that indicates the opposite, and such usage can be perceived as rather droll or funny. Take for example of irony his mention of countless concerned, anxious and loving relatives practically killing a newborn with all their attention.

Sarcasm has an uglier color, in that it manipulates the use of irony to show contempt or ridicule. And so we have Dickens cleverly hiding some of his bitterness regarding the birth scene with satire, which is defined as the use of humor, irony or ridicule to expose evil or cruelty. (Of course loving parents and grandparents do not harm the infant)!

And so Dickens notes "Oliver breathed...and gave this his first testimony of the free and proper action of his lungs. . . " : )


message 126: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 12:41PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Lee - I love your motivation for reading this! I'm sure you will observe many instances which make Charles Dickens's purpose clear, and which you can share with us.

There really is something new to discover every time. I see that this is the 6th time I have read it (just for myself) since 1992, and know I'd read it a few times before that too, but it is as fresh and surprising now as it was that first time 😊


message 127: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 02:22PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Greg - I've just gone over that paragraph about "doctors of profound wisdom", and am pretty sure you're right and it is just a sarcastic sort of comment (bordering on irony perhaps, as Lee says 😊)

The thing is, Charles Dickens is commenting on every ordinary person thinking they are an expert: the aunts and grandmothers because they had experienced childbirth themselves (Louisa Chick at the beginning of Dombey and Son comes to mind - I think you may remember that) and nurses and doctors would also fuss far too much - but have different ideas so the poor child would be subject to inconsistent approaches, some of which as you pointed out, were also misguided and rather primitive.

I also wonder if Charles Dickens has in his mind here the sort of doctors who are book-learned, and applying theories rather than good practice. It would fit with his general condemnation of the "philosophers" responsible for the workhouse system in this book.

I'm delighted you are enjoying the "elaboration of syntax" in Oliver Twist. And Jenny too 😊 I think Kathleen said she liked the style as well. I was hoping I hadn't made it sound too straightforward, as some of his passages are quite convoluted, aren't they? But it's so worth the focus.

(Edited after noticing cross-posting with Lee)


message 128: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Sorry Lori, cross-posted! I agree the imagery is truly haunting. I want to move away from that scene to the next chapter ... but I fear to.


message 129: by Beth (last edited May 01, 2023 02:39PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Therefore cruel treatment was the norm; they were punished for being poor."

Policies (and laws) like this still exist today, in different clothes (minor reference to this chapter).

Several people have already said such interesting and insightful things about this chapter. :) I am reading Oliver Twist in audio and literally didn't notice the length of the first sentence. I went back to look at it in print after seeing a post or two about it. It's a paragraph long! "Wurkus" caused a rewind or two, and referring to the printed text clarified it.

I liked how the doctor and "Mrs. Thingummy" were portrayed. In my imagination, they'd seen similar scenes many times, but made sure that the dying mother was treated sympathetically. Oliver's mother was more of a plot point than a character, to me, a necessary loss for an orphan's story to move forward.


message 130: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Beth wrote: "Oliver's mother was more of a plot point than a character ..."

Interesting! But then this is Dickens ...


message 131: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments I enjoyed this first chapter along with all of you. One aspect of the writing that struck me was that Dickens is already writing as if for the stage. Oliver’s mother died a theatrical death while the “nurse” was sipping from her secret bottle and little Oliver was finally breathing. The doctor wasn’t doing much of anything. The few words say so much. I don’t recall whether Dickens was involved in theater at all at this point in his life and I know he did many readings later on. I recall discussing this topic while reading another of novels though I don’t know which one.


message 132: by Beth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "But please don't read Dickens's Prefaces if the novel is new to you!"

Are there plans to visit this/these after we're through with the novel?


message 133: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 01, 2023 04:00PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Sue wrote: "I enjoyed this first chapter along with all of you. One aspect of the writing that struck me was that Dickens is already writing as if for the stage ..."

I like this very much, and think you are right Sue. It could well have been in his mind, since he did not know at this stage that he was writing a novel. (I always find that so hard to get my head round, but it's true!) 😀

"I don’t recall whether Dickens was involved in theater at all at this point in his life"

Yes, Charles Dickens's first and abiding love was the theatre in all its forms. John Forster tells us of an audition he went to at a London theatre as a young man, to become a member of their company, and which he prepared for assiduously, only to fall ill with a bad cold and not be able to attend. His life could have gone a very different way ...

But Charles Dickens was involved in acting, directing and producing both amateur and professional plays all his life. At the time of writing these early chapters of Oliver Twist, he was preparing a comic opera “The Village Coquettes” ready for stage later in the year.


message 134: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Beth wrote: "Are there plans to visit this/these after we're through with the novel?"

Of course, if you wish to!


message 135: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1140 comments Jean, thanks for the information about the theater. I’d forgotten that…read his biography several years ago and haven’t read Forster’s yet. I just moved book one of that up front on my kindle and hope to be able to make some inroads soon.


message 136: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
It's worth a read Sue! Most of us agreed that the best parts were all the letters to John Forster, which were sometimes just as funny or indignant as other things he wrote 😀


message 137: by David (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Thanks for the message to let me know about the group read, Jean.

Oliver Twist was my first exposure to Dickens, which must have been nearly 60 years ago, and in graphic novel form! Dundee publisher DC Thomson (The Beano, Dandy, People’s Friend etc) had their master illustrator Dudley D Watkins draw the images for a series of classic novels in pictorial form, aimed at children.

My older brother won Watkins’s Oliver Twist as a school prize in the early 1960s, and it and others in the series are now very collectable. He still has his copy. I think everyone in the family read it, personally many times as we had few books at home then, not a claim that I could make nowadays!

I did eventually read a published Penguin version perhaps about fifteen years ago, and am looking forward to doing so again in the company of fellow Dickens enthusiasts.


message 138: by Plateresca (new)

Plateresca | 566 comments Sam, thank you for your comments on the persona of the narrator, very interesting!

Sue, oh, this death is, indeed, theatrical, thank you for drawing our attention to this.

The surgeon: I'm not at all sure we are to see him again, but he is not a stick figure, even in such a short chapter, isn't he? He spoke to the mother 'with more kindness than might have been expected of him', and then he observed about the child, 'It’s very likely it will be troublesome', then made the comment about the mother's good looks, the absence of the ring, and 'walked away to dinner'. He does have some empathy for his patients, but he's seen too many of them. Yet, the narrator could have just said that he walked away; 'to dinner' adds poignancy to the situation, I think - the boy is to be given 'a little gruel' instead of mother's milk.


message 139: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 03:21AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Hi David - "Dundee publisher DC Thomson (The Beano, Dandy, People’s Friend etc) had their master illustrator Dudley D Watkins draw the images for a series of classic novels in pictorial form"

Yes, incredibly I have this, and a couple more! Pure nostalgia I think. There are US editions of these "Classics Illustrated" too; a slightly different but overlapping catalogue. I have a separate GR shelf for my "Classics Illustrated" and have even reviewed a few of them!

Thanks for sharing your lovely memories. I'm delighted you can join us 😊 Please read the intro comments so you know how we approach it (and use the chapter links if it helps). Today is chapter 2.


message 140: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 03:26AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Hi Plateresca - Nice point about the surgeon. Yes, he's not a flat character, but a nicely nuanced little cameo.

It is such skilful writing, from a young man early in his career, to be able to make us see the pathos, enjoy the humour (sardonic though it may be) - and produce a rounded, well observed character - in just a few paragraphs.


message 141: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 03:45AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Chapter 2:

The baby, who is named Oliver, is transferred to a baby farm, where a fee is paid for the ongoing care of babies and children. Old Mrs. Mann makes her living by raising poor orphaned children. At Mrs. Mann’s baby farm, Oliver receives little food, clothing, care, or affection, and is beaten regularly. He is lucky to survive, as several other children do not. On Oliver’s ninth birthday, the parish beadle, Mr. Bumble arrives:



"Goodness gracious! is that you, Mr. Bumble, Sir?" - Frederick W. Pailthorpe 1886

and takes him back to the workhouse:



"Oliver is taken to the Workhouse" - Frederic W. Pailthorpe 1886

At the workhouse Oliver’s job is to pick oakum, untangling old tar-covered ropes to make material which is used to seal a ship’s seams. Under the new regulations, the workhouse children are fed three meals of gruel per day supplemented by occasional bits of bread. After three months of this regimen, the children are starving and desperate. Oliver and several other children draw lots, and it becomes Oliver’s task to ask for more food:



"Oliver Asks for More" - Harold CoppingHarold Copping 1924

After finishing his small bowl of gruel, he approaches the master and says, “Please, sir, I want some more.”



"Starvation at the Workhouse - Harry Furniss



by James Mahoney 1871 (uncaptioned)



Oliver Asking for More - George Cruikshank 1846

Overcome by the impertinence of this demand, the workhouse master calls for Mr. Bumble, who informs the board. The board decides to offer Oliver as an apprentice, and one of them in a white waistcoat predicts, “that boy will be hung.”


message 142: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 03:45AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
This is the end of the first installment. We now have a day free, before we begin the second installment, with chapter 3.


message 143: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 03, 2023 07:09AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Charles Dickens seemed to have started at the beginning of Oliver Twist, the Parish Boy’s story, but by Chapter 2 we learn that he is now 9 years old! (Actually in the original serial he was 8 years old, but by the time it reached novel form, Charles Dickens changed this to 9, as the timeline would not have worked otherwise.)

Unlike many young children at this time—especially those in the workhouse or baby farms—Oliver has survived but is not strong. The descriptions of him close to tears all the time are full of pathos, and we immediately feel for this poor mite. Picking oakum is not just hours of monotony, but deliberately cruel for young children. It is meant as a severe punishment, breaking a child’s nails, and tearing the flesh of his finger-ends.

This first intsallment introduces the central mystery of Oliver Twist—his identity and that of his mother—as well as several ongoing themes: poverty, criminality, and child abuse. It also addresses the themes of hypocrisy and greed, especially in the character of Mrs. Mann, whose desire to live well leads her to starve the children in her care while claiming the opposite, that she “couldn’t see ’em suffer.”

Oliver Twist is not quite the first Victorian novel; in fact as I mentioned earlier, Queen Victoria was not even on the throne for the first few installments. It is Charles Dickens writing in the late Regency period. However in 1837-9 it presaged the Victorian tradition, and was the first novel of this type to feature a young child as its hero, especially one from the streets of London.


message 144: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 03:52AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Mr. Bumble the beadle is one of Charles Dickens’s famous humorous minor characters; pompous, fatuous and complacent. He seems to regard his headgear as indicative of his station: glancing “complacently at the cocked hat”. Oliver Twist is terrified, but acknowledges the power of the symbol when he makes his bow, which is “divided between the beadle on the chair, and the cocked hat on the table.” Plus of course, this whimsical description is very funny!

In his conversation with Mrs. Mann, Mr. Bumble reveals that he could learn nothing about Oliver’s parentage. So we have a persistent obscurity surrounding the boy’s origins, to reinforce the atmosphere of mystery evoked in the opening scenes of the book. Even the manner by which Oliver received his name gives us no clue. By explaining that the foundlings are provided with names arbitrarily selected in alphabetical order (and therefore a “T” initial was needed, to come between Swubble and Unwin) we see that how Oliver got his name is governed by chance. This signals to us that a good deal of random chance is in store for the boy. And we see this again, when it is his lot to make the perilous attempt to get more food.


message 145: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 03:58AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And a little more …

A point of detail …

At the end of chaper 2, you may have the words:

“I should perhaps mar the interest of this narrative, (supposing it to possess any at all,) if I ventured to hint just yet, whether the life of Oliver Twist will be a long or short piece of biography.

or your edition might say:

“ … if I ventured to hint just yet, whether the life of Oliver Twist had this violent termination or no.

This change is really interesting, in hindsight. When he wrote the first version,
Charles Dickens literally had no idea how long Oliver Twist would be. He only had a very general idea of what was going to happen, and had not yet decided to make it a serial novel, but just part of "The Mudfog Papers". The second version though, was what was printed in the novel after he had completed it.


message 146: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 24, 2023 12:27PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And yet more …

Victorian Baby Farms

Mrs. Mann runs a baby farm. Hanway’s Act of 1767 was promoted by the Foundling Hospital governor Jonas Hanway. It stipulated that all pauper children aged under six from Metropolitan parishes must be sent to a school in the countryside, at least three miles from London or Westminster. So all London’s poor children under six had to be educated in the countryside outside of the city.

London church parishes set aside a small weekly stipend per child for this purpose. Obviously they chose the cheapest means of doing so: lodging them with individuals who contracted to provide care, maintenance, and education. Sadly this system was flawed from the start. In its first 10 years, over 20 percent of the children placed in these baby farms did not survive the experience.

The children who did survive the baby farm were then expected to work. Some went to work in the factories; others, like nine-year-old Oliver, went to the workhouse. Oliver is given the job of picking oakum. Old, tarry ropes had to be untwisted and the threads, or “oakum” and the children had to pick out the tar so the ropes could be reused. It was a hard and painful task.


message 147: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 04:04AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
“I want some more?” Here you are then …

A real life “Oliver Twist”?

Forget the sentimental pictures of a cute moppet-headed Oliver you may have seen in films. The reality was very different. Film-makers have a hard time nowadays finding any children who do not look well fed and cared for to cast. But here is a photograph of a ragged child in London’s East End, from just a few years later. He was called Jim Jarvis, and here he is:



Jim Jarvis was a boy who lived in 19th Century London. Like Oliver, Jim was an orphan, but he lived on the street. There were lots of destitute children then who were either orphaned or abandoned, and who had no place to live. Jim was like all the other ragged children; theirs was a rough life. During the day they wandered through the London East End alleyways, begging from strangers. They were always in danger of exploitation by professional criminals. If begging did not work, then stealing food from market stallholders was their only alternative to finding food. None of these children went to school, nor did they have an adult to care for them. These were the forgotten boys and girls of 19th Century England.

In the next few posts I will tell Jim Jarvis’s true story. You may need tissues ...


message 148: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 06, 2023 11:18AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Ragged School Union

At first respectable society avoided pauper children, but a movement started and by the 1860s a more caring attitude to the poor had developed. Ten-year-old Jim Jarvis was not totally alone; there were people who cared about him. “Ragged Schools” were set up to hep them.

The movement was started by John Pound, a shoemaker by trade, who opened the first Ragged School in Portsmouth in 1818. Others took up Pound’s idea and opened other such schools. Everything was free, for the poor children who attended.

It was Lord Shaftesbury who had in 1844 brought such schools together in an organisation called the Ragged School Union. Charles Dickens’s wealthy friend Angela Burdett Coutts (whom we have come across before), came from a famous banking family, and donated large sums of money as part of her philanthropic work. The Ragged School movement flourished, and by 1866 it was well established and schools were everywhere.

Thomas Barnardo

In theory anyone could open a school. A medical student from Ireland called Thomas Barnardo found a disused donkey stable in the East End of London, and turned it into a Ragged School. Like most people, he did not fully understand the plight these destitute children were in, when he opened his school. Thomas Barnardo had planned to be a missionary in China, but it would be a little street urchin who would show him the way to his true destiny …

The boy’s name was Jim Jarvis. “The Donkey Stable”, as the school was called, attracted children. Jim and his mates (who were a rowdy bunch) often went there in the evenings. Here they could be warm, have a meal and were taught reading, writing and arithmetic by volunteers. They would also be given clothes to replace the ragged ones which had worn out. By all accounts the boys liked Thomas Barnardo. They found him a kindly man. He had their respect and they could talk to him.


message 149: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 06, 2023 11:17AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
Jim Jarvis

Jim Jarvis was ten years old. One cold winter’s night Jim was huddled around the fire talking to Barnardo and time passed all too quickly until it was time to go home. Barnardo sent the children away, assuming they were going “home”. The last boy left was Jim. This boy was dressed in tatty, but conventional clothes, most likely third hand clothes. He wore long trousers and a checked shirt, and over the shirt he wore a waistcoat. He also wore a pair of worn out boots. The boy’s face was pale but filled with dignity and intelligence.

The warm fire was inviting. The boy wanted to stay in the warm room and sleep on the floor. Thomas spoke to the boy gently, and said “time you went home”, but the boy replied that he had nowhere to live. Barnardo did not believe him, thinking that Jim must have parents waiting at home for him. But Jim said that he did not have a mum or a dad, and that he lived nowhere. Barnardo was astounded to learn that Jim had no friends and had nowhere to live. He could not believe what the boy was telling him when Jim said he spent the nights sleeping in a hay cart. Jim shocked Barnardo even further, by telling him that there were lots of children sleeping on the streets. He even offered to show Barnardo where the children slept.

It was around midnight when they set off. Jim took Barnardo to a market in Houndsditch, where they climbed a high brick wall. Looking over the wall, they could see 11 sleeping boys huddled together, aged from 9 to 14. Barnardo was horrified by what Jim had shown him, and knew he had to do something to help these children.

First he helped Jim, and let him stay at his lodgings that first night. Thomas Barnardo found and paid for other lodgings for Jim, the next day. Jim showed him where to look, to find other children, and took him on other night searches, showing Barnardo the appalling life that street children led. Night after night Thomas Barnardo was shown the hiding places where very young children slept. They slept in barrels, on rooftops, under market stalls; anywhere in fact where they could sleep safely, sheltered from the wind and rain.

Before long Thomas Barnardo had 15 children, for whom he had found homes. Barnardo had made a start, but he began to rethink his life. Thomas Barnardo had wanted to be trained as a doctor, and go out to China to be a missionary. Jim had shown him a very real social problem in London’s East End. Should he stay in London and help rescue other destitute boys and girls? He was the only one who could make that decision.

Missionary Conference

Thomas Barnardo could not put Jim’s world out of his mind, and he made the plight of these children known at a Missionary Conference. The audience were amazed by what Barnardo told them, and even a young servant girl gave him money, to help him in his work. This touched him greatly, for the girl must have taken a long time to save the money.

Lord Shaftesbury (Anthony Ashley-Cooper, 7th Earl of Shaftesbury)

Thomas Barnardo’s story was reported in the press, and Lord Shaftesbury read it. He wanted Thomas Barnardo to show him, and one night they went to Billingsgate and found many children, mainly boys sleeping out in the open. Lord Shaftesbury was appalled and could not believe what he saw. In a short space of time 73 boys had been discovered. He said: “All London should know of this!” and promised to help Thomas Barnardo, if he would work with these children.

Other influential people also wrote to Barnardo asking him to change his mind and not go to China, but instead organise relief work for London’s destitute children. Samuel Smith offered financial backing to Barnardo if he would do this. A banker called John Barclay also offered financial help.

Barnardo Homes

For his part Thomas Barnardo could not forget Jim Jarvis, and the terrible plight of poor children, which the boy had shown him. He chose to stay to help the children in the East End of London, and did not become a missionary in China. The Barnardo homes were established in his lifetime. His organisation helped many destitute children to find their way.

In the United Kingdom of today Barnardo’s is the largest children’s charity that helps many thousands of children. Even as a child I myself had a collection box for Barnardo’s Homes, and kind visitors to our house sometimes put their pennies in my box. As an adult, eventually moving to the area where I now live, I became aware how many here have the surname “Barnardo” (even my doctor at the time) and realised that this area near London is where Dr. Barnardo had lived.

And that's how a 10-year boy called Jim Jarvis had touched Thomas Barnardo’s heart, and opened his eyes to the suffering experienced by street children. This resulted in the formation of a children’s charity, to care and help them grow into good citizens.

And yes Barnardo's is still doing great work to this day.


message 150: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 02, 2023 04:20AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8393 comments Mod
And even more … I nearly forgot I promised to complete the

Biblical significance: began yesterday. From the same chapter in the Bible,
I Corinthians ch.13 v. 2 says:

“And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”

(or Revised Standard Version: “And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love I gain nothing.”)

I think I slightly prefer the RSV here, but the sense is very similar.

The first reference to Corinthians seems to refer to the pauper attending Oliver’s birth, but this verse could describe the parish board: the workhouse officers as a whole. They seem to have the “gift of prophecy” constantly predicting that Oliver will be troublesome or even hanged, not realising that it is their own impurity—the “dark glass”—that causes them to see this. They “have not charity” to see the child clearly, so they and their visions are “nothing”.

For Charles Dickens, who was a sincere Christian (although he respected all Faiths) this passage was key. It includes Paul’s famous speech in verse 4: “Love is patient, love is kind …”. Charles Dickens calls our attention to this in order to point out what love (or charity) should be, and how the parish officials of his day were behaving the exact opposite.

Most Victorian readers were very familiar with the Bible, and this would hit them between the eyes, although modern readers might have to tease it out a little.


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