Works of Thomas Hardy discussion
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Tess of the D’Urbervilles
Tess of the d'Urbervilles
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Tess of the D'Urbervilles - Introduction and Phase the First: Chapters 1 - 11
Jim wrote: "It occurs to me that this entire first phase "The Maiden" may be seen as back-story ..."I really like that way of looking at it, Jim.
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Thanks too for thinking about the actual words that Thomas Hardy used in this chapter. This is so important, especially when we are familiar with the story.
I like your thoughts that Alec is "in lust" with Tess, and think he has convinced himself as many a young man might, that he is in love. But his care only extends to the moment, as he indulges his fancy gazing at her, and not taking her home as she had expected. This is selfish, and not the act of a lover, as you say (nor of a gentleman, as I'd said). Plus the later events which Thomas Hardy did not dare to describe, of course.
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I'm glad you enjoyed the photographs, and thank you too for mentioning them :) The scenery in that area is indeed stunning.
We do indeed need to avoid presentism, as you say. And like you, I am struck with this reading, (exactly 50 years after my first one!), by how well rounded Thomas Hardy's characters are. These are no cardboard villains and heroines!
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I think that is a very valid and insightful approach! Thank you.
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The fact that Tess is a "pure woman" means, paradoxically, that she is fated to be a victim."
I like all your thoughts very much :) Thank you for additionally pointing out the Victorian perception that there was no middle ground, as far as female moral propriety was concerned. We do need to bear this in mind as we read on.
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Please do add your thoughts to this one everyone who would like to, either of the final chapter or of the entire Phase. Thanks :)
I can't help but see Alec in only the worst possible way. He stalked, preyed upon, manipulated and I can't read any other interpretation that he did rape Tess. She was asleep, a most vulnerable state to say the least!
Chris wrote: "I can't help but see Alec in only the worst possible way. He stalked, preyed upon, manipulated and I can't read any other interpretation that he did rape Tess. She was asleep, a most vulnerable sta..."To Chris @ 259
I agree, Chris, this was despicable, and he began the course long in advance. The violence was the end result of a long plan. We have different terms today in 2022, yes, but Hardy was able to create the story of his manipulations clearly from the time the two met. Still, Hardy was much more progressive than others of the time.
Horrifically, there are many in our world now who still hold the double standard, and we have too many cases of rape. It's quite a journey from one time period to another in the past, but it's essential if we can ever learn to change these mindsets.
Chris, thank you for your energy! I look forward to seeing what the next phase brings.
- Jan
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Here's the LINK again.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Chris and Jan - It's good to see that the critical debate about what actually happened is still alive and well, and we have all opinions represented here :) That is why a slow careful read, avoidin..."@ 261
Thank you, Jean.
Busy with my composition courses, I might not be able to write extensively, but I am staying current with the readings and am enjoying the lively and edifying written discussion here.
Onward!
Jan
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Just got to the point where I could begin this book and am looking forward to contributing to this talks about it. Meanwhile, I'll be reading the comments already posted.
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Bionic Jean wrote: "Ah good! I'm so pleased to have you with us Pamela :) You'll easily be able to keep track by the links, so you can add comments whenever you like."Have already read the first four chapters and enjoyed very much reading the comments. As I haven't read Hardy and have only recently gotten into other classics of this era, it is wonderful to hear the various points everyone has made. And It is triggering me to think about such things as a young woman all in white as everyone else but who has added the little splash of color with a red ribbon and the splash of Prince's blood on her white dress as the poor horse dies. Just wonderful!!
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Oh my god, guys, this thread has been great! It's helped me understand so much more about this story. I really feel sorry for Tess ... her family are only thinking of what will work for them (after all, neither parent really does anything to take care of their children) and then Tess literally jumped from the frying pan into a fire — Alec.I, like many of you have looked at the use of language and how amazing Hardy's use of it is so good. We know what is happening and we are helpless to do anything about it. And we know that Tess feels that same.
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Bionic Jean wrote: "So we finally see what the first ten chapters were leading up to. Poor Tess! A tragic, passive victim. And yet as I read this chapter again, I find Alec portrayed in a different way. No longer is..."
At the end of this chapter, this is exactly how I felt about the relationship between Tess and Alec — did they or didn't they? I definitely felt that at this point, Alec has worn Tess down and her submission wasn't rape or seduction but simply a giving up — she realizes that she can't keep fighting him.
Jan wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Tess bedecked in roses offers us another image of her as a fertility goddess or a symbol of Nature. Despite her education, Tess still has some of her mother’s superstitions, and..."I didn't think of that when I was reading it, Jan. That is a good point!
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Yes indeed Alec's attentions and Tess's submission are the source of much critical debate. And once we are keyed into the idea of Tess as a fertility goddess or a symbol of Nature, we see references popping up all over the place!
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I know I haven't commented till now, but I wanted to say something about Alex and his treatment of Tess compared to Alec mother and her treatment of birds /Alec. Alec's mother is blind. She recognizes her bird by feeling them. Emotionally she has no feeling for Alec. She has more love for her birds. She wants them to sing a particular song so she teaches them what to say. If you think about her and this house being part of a banking family, you can almost see this part of the story as a fairytale. Is Alec's mother counting her chickens before they lay eggs? Are these chickens that lay the golden goose.
I think this is important to the story because this man was a boy at one time, and his mother (and father) help to create this man. But why don't we look at these relationships? Isn't it true that Alec is trying to teach Tess what to say?
Could Alec have a different kind of relationship with a woman when his mother is so unavailable. All women are unavailable perhaps in his mind. They all must be tricked to pay attention to him.
Now personally I don't know if Alec thought this was date rape, but it was and is. Because it is not consensual. No means no, Yes means Yes and Maybe means No, and Later means No.
We should also look at the relationship that Tess has compared with her father. Her father was an alcoholic. Her father was also self-centered. He didn't even provide food for the family out of the ground. He had beehives as a passive source of income. I thought about the symbol of the bees and how they worked for him. Everyone was working for him. He was a manipulator...a wheeler and a dealer. He has a title that he didn't earn, just like Alec.
So she is a child of an alcoholic. Perfect set up. Alec thinks that he has done something for Tess in getting her a position at the house as a fowl keeper. He probably is one that was guilted when he was given something and thinks that this is normal to expect something in return. This is part of being impersonal. For Tess it was made to feel guilty about killing Prince. She is manipulated by guilt and expectation.
One of the things that I wanted to comment on was a quote:
"In the Durbeyfield countenances there was nothing of the red wrath that would have burnt upon the girl from parents more ambitious for her welfare. Nobody blamed Tess as she blamed herself."
Now what I think this is saying is that in a family where they stood up for each other, someone, the father in my opinion, should have stood up for Tess and questioned whether the Mail Cart was at fault!! Because the Narrator tells us that the Mail Cart was going too fast. And it is possible that the Mail Cart was actually in her lane, when he came around the curve. We have the mailman telling Tess what happened. I don't think he is a reliable witness. It was dark and her light in her carriage was not very bright. But his speed caused Prince to be burgeoned. How fast was he going to do this? Why is he noble because he sends help, "a farmer".
Now just another thought. I just finished reading Inglorious Empire: What the British Did to India about the East India Company. It seems to me that there are some elements in this book that could make it look like a political allegory.
The Mail Cart = Free Trade that the East India Company imposed on the colonies. Since the industries at home were getting hurt by the exports from India, they decimated the weaving industry in India. They eventually sold cloth to the Indians made in England.
The dUbervilles, a merchant and banking family that are imposters. Pretending to be something that they are not. This is what the East India Company did to India (and other colonies). They set up like they were going to protect the Indian Nobility. Eventually they set up banks and started taxing the Indians. Taxing was not the way that the Nobles in Medieval time did got their cut. They took their profits from the shipping trade...this way there was enough provision for the people and they did not starve or suffer want.
I have been reading The Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth About Our Money System And How We Can Break Free which explained this. (You can read it free on Archive.org.)
The Diamond in Alec ring I believe is also a throwback to India...and maybe the book The Moonstone published, August 1, 1868.
Tess of the D’Urbervilles was written in 1891.
I am thinking about Mrs D'Urberville's chickens and how they could be how the EIC treated the Indian's like children. They gave them an education and through that tried to make them less Indian. . In fact they made them wear uniforms. You can't be an individual under those kinds of constraints. You are being propagandized and set up for manipulation.
I have really enjoyed reading all the comments and notes. It has really helped me see things I missed. Thank you!!
Hi Cosmic,I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on phase I of the novel. Like you, I was also curious about the quote from the scene with Tess and the mail cart. When I read it, though, it sounded to me as if Tess's family did not blame her for what had happened--but for an interesting reason: they didn't care too much about her general wellbeing! It seemed as if her parents wanted to escape the responsibilities of being parents, leaving Tess to take care of them and her siblings.
Her father did express some concern for her, I thought, in the scene where he was uneasy over Tess being sent to live with their new so-called relatives--but only because it reflected badly on his position as head of the family.
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I'm delighted to see you commenting! You make quite a few interesting points here, which I'll try to reply to in the next posts.
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"Isn't it true that Alec is trying to teach Tess what to say?"
I like this very much. As we read we are recognising more and more the symbolism the various birds have in this novel. Drawing a parallel between the way Mrs. d'Urberville treats her chickens and Alec treats Tess is indeed a possibility. He has had no examples of a moral dimension - there is no father around - and behaves according to his whims.
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Yes - and this is part of his power. Good observations about Tess's father too. We discussed the quotation you include, plus in fact you have answered your own question already, by your comments about the father. What he should have done, whatever you believe that is, is not going to be what what he does do.
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She knows she was asleep, and Prince had meandered. Plus a magistrate of the time would judge a driver of the mail coach to be a "reliable witness", even if a 16 year old girl had lied about it - as Tess would have had to do. The driver did what he would be expected to do afterwards. He secured the safety of the mail, and reported the accident to the first responsible adult he saw, a farmer.
This is all authentic, and our only difficulty with it is when we apply our modern moral code. The father was irresponsible in drinking, and letting his daughter - who was little more than a child - do his overnight job, in addition to her own.
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And thank you too, for sharing your thoughts, and also for your useful references, Cosmic. We are now nearly half way through the book, so I hope you can add a few more thoughts when you have read further, and then hopefully join in as we read :)
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It's so good to see you back commenting! Please do add your thoughts to the threads as we go too!
"they didn't care too much about her general wellbeing! It seemed as if her parents wanted to escape the responsibilities of being parents,"
Yes, we know that Tess looks after all her siblings at this point, and even has to fetch her parents back from the inn when they are out drinking! We are told that Mrs. Durbeyfield almost wishes she were young again, and used to enjoy singing - but they feel and behave a little guiltily when Tess collects them. They are like children themselves as you surmise, and Tess has to be the parent to them, as so often happens.
But I would not say her mother is uncaring. She just has a different attitude to life. She is fatalistic, not as educated as Tess is, and her personality is complacent; far more easy and accepting. Tess worries about everything; Joan Durbeyfield about nothing.
"only because it reflected badly on his position as head of the family." Yes he is rather stupid. In fact in a later chapter his wife says that he is "simple - poor chap".
We see that this d'Urberville business has all gone to John Durbeyfield's head. He is weak, vain, and he drinks to excess. He does not seem unkind to Tess, and is not violent. He probably even loves her in his own way, and is proud of her. But he is blinkered; his sins are of omission.
I'm looking forward to reading your further comments, April :)
Hi Jean,Thank you for your insights and I appreciate the point that you made about historical context here. When I commented on Mr. and Mrs. Durbeyfield, I was seeing them as "stock" characters and judging them from my memories about a small section of dialogue.
Your comments about context and paying attention to the actual language of the text is helping me to see these characters in a new light. As characters, Tess' parents may be more complex than I had initially thought. :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "4. Both the parents behave completely in character. The advantage to this is that Tess is not unfairly blamed for the loss of their income. The disadvantage is that Tess herself feels even more gui..."
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Thanks, Jean. I just finished the novel and, goodness, do I have a lot of thoughts about it! It certainly felt different to me, reading Tess again, over 20 years later. I have more questions about what I've read in the novel now than I did back then.
Hi Pamela,Yes, I agree that Tess jumped from "the frying pan and into the fire" with Alec! To me, it seemed as if Tess and Alec were foils for each other. Each character, when placed together, highlighted the extremes of the other.
This made me wonder what, if any, larger point about morality was being made through these representations.
Pamela wrote: "Oh my god, guys, this thread has been great! It's helped me understand so much more about this story. I really feel sorry for Tess ... her family are only thinking of what will work for them (after..."
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In that case please do add your thoughts to the next two threads LINK HERE (phase 2 and 3) and LINK HERE (phase 4) as we have just started phase 5.
Lots of us rereading it feel as you do, and I'm sure we'll have commented on some of the areas you say you want to think more and talk about! And you can easily locate exactly what has happened, by the chapter links :)
Juxtapositions are classic Hardy. He uses the technique very cleverly, not only in Tess.As well as contrasting her youthful innocence with d’Urberville’s predatory wordliness, and her callous treatment at his hands, Hardy also contrasts Tess’s bucolic simplicity with the symbols of the coming mechanical age. At Talbothays, she and her friends are symbolic of Wessex rural tradition, satisfied and happy in their natural idyll, but the appearance of the threshing mill, described by Hardy in terms almost frighteningly demonic, can be interpreted as his lament for the inevitable march of progress, and its crushing effect on centuries-old rural tradition.
The book also gives a concise insight to what many see as Hardy’s world view. On the journey with her younger brother in the dark, he comments on the spectacular astral display, causing Tess to muse that some stars are blighted, and that we are inhabitants of such a star. The Return of the Native, The Mayor of Casterbridge, and most chillingly, Jude the Obscure all bear this same stamp to a greater or lesser extent.
The rhythmic cadences of his poem During Wind and Rain, though, distils life and its expectations down to four stark stanzas, juxtaposing hope and fate, and for some readers, summarises Hardy’s world view in just over 150 expertly-chosen and ordered words.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
Bionic Jean wrote: ""I have really enjoyed reading all the comments and notes. It has really helped me see things I missed. Thank you!!"And thank you too, for sharing your thoughts, and also for your useful referenc..."
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will be continuing my reading of Tess.
April wrote: "Her father did express some concern for her, I thought, in the scene where he was uneasy over Tess being sent to live with their new so-called relatives--but only because it reflected badly on his position as head of the family."
That is a good point. I wonder if Hardy is not showing us here how the family has changed dynamics. It went from a Patriarch to a Matriarch. He would rather keep her home. The mother is into speculation.
David wrote: "Juxtapositions are classic Hardy. He uses the technique very cleverly, not only in Tess."
I love this! I have been listening to this poem over and over. I really like how Michael Stuhlbarg reads it:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/podc...
You could see them around the May Pole reciting this. It is like a nursery rhythm ...like Humpty Dumpty (In that for some reason the sound of Humpty Dumpty sounds up beat but the message is a downer)
I edited the poem so that all the positive statements follow each other and all the negative ones follow. It makes for an interesting "juxtapose".
They sing their dearest songs—
They clear the creeping moss—
They are blithely breakfasting all—
They change to a high new house,
How the sick leaves reel down in throngs!
See, the white storm-birds wing across.
And the rotten rose is ript from the wall.
Down their carved names the rain-drop ploughs.
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Cosmic, just in case David does not see this, please LINK HERE to his excellent lead of this poem a few weeks ago for us :)
Hi David,Thanks for sharing your insights! It's funny because when I first read Tess about 20 years ago, I don't recall noticing these contrasts as much as I do now. So, it has been interesting to see how much my perspective as a reader has changed over the years.
David wrote: "Juxtapositions are classic Hardy. He uses the technique very cleverly, not only in Tess.
As well as contrasting her youthful innocence with d’Urberville’s predatory wordliness, and her callous tre..."
I was fortunate enough to have one of the leading Hardy scholars as my tutor in the final year of my degree, April. His insights have stayed with me, and I’m happy to share them with fellow Hardy readers at the same time as I learn from you all. Thank you, Cosmic Arcata for your edit juxtaposing the positive and negative lines of During Wind And Rain. It magnifies the contrasts of the poem very well. Although I’ve done more than my fair share of editing over the years, I would never have considered using the skills to enhance an understanding of a poetic work. It’s something I will bear in mind for the future, although I think I’ll draw the line at Paradise Lost or The Faerie Queene!
Ah, it's nice to return to these posts, everyone's numerous insights, and our various queries. I finished reading the novel, astounded by how its impression nearly three decades after I first read it. I'm going to read more to make certain I am in the right spot for discussion and can prepare to avoid spoilers.
Also, I now realize this about myself as a reader. I truly enjoy reading for the context, and I find these rich discussions food for my soul. Another food for my soul, however, is reading in the moment - as if the novel were written yesterday with me in mind. Yes, that second could be self-centered and limited, but it also speaks to many works of literature that are truly timeless. I genuinely try to keep both of these reader stances in mind when embarking on books for fun and also social engagement.
Ending with a question, I now wonder if some of Hardy's juxtapositions reveal social changes at the close of the 19th Century with anticipation the turn of the 20th Century. This is truly an open question. I do not have enough familiarity with Hardy or the particular time and place he lived in; if you choose to answer this, I'd greatly enjoy learning from you!
Onward!
Jan
Cosmic wrote: "David wrote: "Juxtapositions are classic Hardy. He uses the technique very cleverly, not only in Tess."
I love this! I have been listening to this poem over and over. I really like how Michael St..."
Yes, absolutely enchanting, especially because it reminds me of a poignant melody. Hardy's writing over and again "plays those melodies" for me.
Thank you!
David wrote: "I was fortunate enough to have one of the leading Hardy scholars as my tutor in the final year of my degree, April. His insights have stayed with me, and I’m happy to share them with fellow Hardy r..."What an exceptional experience for you!
I look forward to learning more.
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Yes! Please do. We are now on chapter 41, with 4 threads open. Please add your thoughts about each there if you like, especially since you have now finished the novel.
Your question about Thomas Hardy's take on social changes at the close of the 19th Century, anticipating the 20th Century is an excellent one for us to discuss, but not in this thread devoted to Phase 1, but in our after-read discussion. We have many more aspects to thrash through first! So I've made a note of it for then, and hope to see you in our current discussions. I hope this is OK for you, Jan :)
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As you know this is a slow careful read, a bit different from most Goodreads group reads. There are many information posts and great discussions in each thread, in our "one chapter a day" read.
Thanks!
Works of Thomas Hardy
Books mentioned in this topic
The Moonstone (other topics)The Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth About Our Money System And How We Can Break Free (other topics)
The Moonstone (other topics)
Tess of the D’Urbervilles (other topics)
Inglorious Empire: What the British Did to India (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Thomas Hardy (other topics)Wilkie Collins (other topics)
Thomas Hardy (other topics)
Thomas Hardy (other topics)
Sandro Botticelli (other topics)
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At the time Hardy wrote, the angel/whore dichotomy was an important concept: a woman was either pure or defiled, and no in-between. If Tess allowed herself to be seduced, then she couldn't be a "pure" woman; and if she were really pure, then her purity would have guarded her from seduction/rape (or caused her to die after having been violated). Critical outrage in part reflected Tess's subversiveness and the fact that she couldn't be fit into that model.
Another trope that was popular earlier, in the 18th century (Clarissa, or, the History of a Young Lady for example), was the idea that reformed rakes make the best husbands. Also, I've read that when young aristocratic men took "the tour," there was a lot of brothel-visiting involved. Definitely no double-standard there!