Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: Plum Bun
I purchased my copy of Plum Bun today. I got a new/used copy for $6.44 at Amazon. I'm looking forward to reading it, so I can join the discussion next month.Will Gibson
Novelist
http://www.amazon.com/Will-Gibson/e/B...
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Will Gibson
Novelist
http://www.amazon..."
Great to have you along, Will! Should be a nice discussion.
Mod
Wikipedia:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessie...
thanks, Columbus. I really loved reading this book - its themes are current and pressing, in their own historical context and in ours, today.
Wondering what you all have,out noticed in the opening chapters? Also very open to suggestions about themes that arise, issues we want to focus on.
if you've not yet bought the book, it's available as a PDF - . downloaded it from this URL and then opened it on my phone and iPad through iBOoks
https://ia902708.us.archive.org/12/it...
Janet
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I'm about 60% through this book and like you Janet, I'm loving it. Such wonderful writing!
thanks, Columbus. Failing another theme, wondering if people want to take up the notion of passing as we work our way through the initial chapters?
I am so glad we are reading Plum Bun.While I have read some of Jessie Redmon Fauset shorter work and excerpts from her novels but it seems I have not yet read any of her novels. Shame on me.
I started last night but was only able to get up to about 7% into the book but liked what I read and will try to make much better progress tonight.
Reminding me that Ms. Faust worked on the Crisis magazine brought to mind a book on my shelf that I have been meaning to read on my next long plane ride - The Crisis Reader: Stories, Poetry, and Essays from the N.A.A.C.P.'s Crisis Magazine
Mod
I just got this one from the library and am about 30 pages into it. While I'd admit she is a good writer, I have had some trouble getting into it as there is something about it that comes off as dry and a bit passive voice (not sure if that is a correct literary term, it's just my closest description). It almost feels like a documentary discussing the activities of this family and I was waiting for some emotional connection. I just got to a brief dialogue between Mattie and Junius when they first fell in love and those three or four paragraphs were much more captivating for me than the 30 pages before. I haven't read much work from the 1920's (and nothing else by this author) so I don't know if this an author style, this book's style, or an era style that for some reason is hard for me to engage with.That said, I have found the points Ms. Fauset is exploring about "passing" so far to be fascinating and thought-provoking. I don't know if I'm getting ahead in the discussion, but I'll share my opening thoughts. As I read about Angela, I see how someone considering the potentials of passing (particularly an impressionable child) could equate (not just associate, but equate) the rewards of the upper class with their physical traits rather than the interaction of racist laws and financial stratification. (Her mother's understanding is much more nuanced.) Angela's thoughts were poignant on page 18, when she began to feel "that coloured people were to be considered fortunate only in the proportion in which they measured up to the physical standards of white people." She no longer thinks the shopping is the reward, the reward is looking like white people. (And thinking about this, I can see how the same thing happens to a child growing up white and privileged - all the nearby people in my circumstances are white, so I must be well off because I'm white, not because these things are unjustly shared among white people. Being white is it's own reward.) For some reason, the contrast between the mother and daughter's thoughts on this made it more poignant. And the fact that no one has to say anything at all to teach Angela this, she just watches and learns, and sets up the foundation for an internalized hate/othering of parts of herself.
I have long been a fan of Jessie Redmon Fauset's work and her career during the Harlem Renaissance. I believe Plum Bun, is her best novel of the four novels she wrote during that period. She wrote quite a bit, but the novels have not always received the credit they deserve, in my opinion.I am always interested in the theme of passing in Fauset's creative fiction, but Plum Bun and the discussion of women artists during the HR and women's sexual freedom are also very interesting themes/points of discussion for me in addition to passing.
thanks, Cynot only thinking about women's sexual freedom but also was thinking about a moment when Angela travels late late at night by bus (don't think I'm spoiling anything here) in a big city and nowhere is there a suggestion of her being unsafe as a woman. I wonder if this is intertwined with her ability to pass or ?
and thanks to others who've posted links and comments as well. will be away from a computer till the morning, but it seems the conversation threads are well started. so looking forward to learning more with us all as we read through.
Michael wrote: "I just got this one from the library and am about 30 pages into it. While I'd admit she is a good writer, I have had some trouble getting into it as there is something about it that comes off as d..."Michael, thank you for clarifying a thought I had about lack of emotions in the writing. I could not put my finger on what bothered me about this book, but you nailed it for me. I put it down as I was having difficulty getting through it, even though I love the period it was written in, and the subject. I will now pick it up again because of this discussion.
(oh but look. the iPad works.) I'm wondering the way we as contemporary readers feel about lack of emotion - does ir also have to do with a certain sort of circumspection in writing at that time in history? I've not read anything else by this author. Are her other writings less detached, more emotive?
Yes Janet, it is the way/time it is written. I have not read anything by the author. I took the challenge of reading it because of the subject and the price (great bargain). I grew up with families such that featured in the book. Southern living afforded me a bird's eye view of the author's experiences. I often wondered about their everyday emotional encounters. Some in the family passed, and others did not. They could have if they wanted to, and no one would have known. There had to be a lot of inner turmoil. I just did not feel that when reading the book. I plan to return to it, however.
Kathleen wrote: "Michael, thank you for clarifying a thought I had about lack of emotions in the writing."Glad my post resonated with you, Kathleen. I'm about 20% through now and it has gotten better, partly from getting used to it, partly because the themes are taking over for me, and partly because of the increased interactions/dialogue. (Although even there, very few emotional cues are given; sometimes what people say takes me totally by surprise because there is no forewarning of their passion/distaste.)
I'm wondering about spoilers on this one. Are we planning to read the book through the whole month as usual? It looks like the book is divided into 5 roughly equal parts (83pp, 88pp, 64pp, 92pp, 68pp), which is hard to divide into 3 stages, or even 4 weeks for the month discussion. Any thoughts on how you want to approach this, Janet?
One idea I had was to just do the first section to start (83pp), to give people a chance to start/acquire the book and get into the discussion. And then double up for the next sections (Market and Plum Bun totaling 152 pages, then Home and Done with Market totaling 160 pages).
Kathleen wrote: "There had to be a lot of inner turmoil. I just did not feel that when reading the book."Yes. I have some thoughts on that once the discussion gets started. Particularly Angela and Jinny's relationship in Part I.
Michael,Thank you SO much for this. The one drawback to reading the book as a PDF was that I had terrible problems going back and forth into sections - so I'm very very grateful to you for posting the page counts here. Your proposal makes a lot of sense:
[Michael's message]One idea I had was to just do the first section to start (83pp), to give people a chance to start/acquire the book and get into the discussion. And then double up for the next sections (Market and Plum Bun totaling 152 pages, then Home and Done with Market totaling 160 pages).
Does this work for all of you? I know that I couldn't easily stop reading for the last 100+ pages.
the ways in which emotions/responses are articulated are powerful.
understood. I think the sections that Michael was describing were the first piece - Market and Plum Bun - and then the next two sections. Does that help?
Just started reading today and I absolutely love the way the author set the table from the very beginning. She set out the family dynamics and psychology from the get go. Mattie "passes" as a silly game. The darker husband and father, Junnie says that it doesn't bother him (but how could it not) unless it interferes with something major!. Almost white Angela sees her father not recognize her mother when she is "passing". Wow Freud would have a field day with that one. And Virginia's horizons are purposely constricted by her sole association with her father, fellow owner of a darker hue. All of this happens in the first 20 pages so I don't think I've spoiled anything. I don't think a clearer road map of whats to come could have been given. Now I'm anxious to see how each character will carry their "burden".
Michael wrote: "I just got this one from the library and am about 30 pages into it. While I'd admit she is a good writer, I have had some trouble getting into it as there is something about it that comes off as bit passive voice (not sure if that is a correct literary term, it's just my closest description). It almost feels like a documentary discussing the activities of this family"That's the way novels were written at that time in history, long discourses about what was happening, rather than making us see what is taking place. Today's editors would reject it for "telling" rather than "showing."
one more logistical piece, following up on Michael's suggestion:Now - through March 9 - the first section to start (83pp), to give people a chance to start/acquire the book and get into the discussion.
week of March 9 - 20 double up for the next sections (Market and Plum Bun totaling 152 pages
March 21-31 Home and Done with Market totaling 160 pages).
make sense? totally open to revisions - thinking this will help us not spoil anything, but also give us time and space to explore as we go.
thanks
William wrote: "Just started reading today and I absolutely love the way the author set the table from the very beginning."William, I find it interesting that you use the phrase: "set the table" because that phrase frames the themes of class and sexuality in the novel for me. What I read in Fauset's use of detail is the setting of a middle-class black family. Their privilege is seen from the descriptions of where and how they live. Being able to use good china, being able to eat with family and having the leisure time (and money)to shop for what one wishes is about class. The furnishings that Fauset describe to me frame sexuality and the woman's "place" in the home that will be challenged in the novel.
Janet wrote: "thanks, Cynot only thinking about women's sexual freedom but also was thinking about a moment when Angela travels late late at night by bus (don't think I'm spoiling anything here) in a big city a..."
I am with you Janet. I think her ability to pass gives her access to places and things she doesn't have access to when she does not pass and that is for her one kind of power that men have. But can she overcome race and gender and have total freedom?
Mod
But, I'm really enjoying how she presents this tale. It's almost a Victorian style for that upper crust breed of coloured folk; a book of manners if you will reminiscent of Edith Wharton's NYC. I'm trying to recall if Larsen's Passing was written in this same way or not. Anyone recall? Certainly Fauset wasn't just any ol' Negro, being hired by Dubois to be the literary editor of The Crisis magazine during the heyday of the Harlem Renaissance. She certainly was familiar with that world.
Mod
Now - through March 9 - the first section to start (83pp), to give people a chance to start/acquire the book and get into the disc..."
Ok, sounds good to me if that works for everyone. So, the entire book will be open as of March 21st to discuss, Janet?
Janet wrote: "one more logistical piece, following up on Michael's suggestion:Now - through March 9 - the first section to start (83pp), to give people a chance to start/acquire the book and get into the disc..."
Works for me! Though I see I will have to get 3 sections done by the 9th, but it is going faster now so that shouldn't be a problem.
Hattie wrote: "The family has split itself in to sides. I look like you. I follow you. Does this foreshadow trouble the family in "Plum Bun" will face later on?"
Certainly it seems to, as it creates a divide between the sisters in particular by the end of Part I. I wonder, would it be harder to get into this trap if the family were explicitly interracial? I mean, what if Mom and first daughter were white, and Dad and second daughter were Black? (Through adoption or previous marriage or whatever). The dialogue about race might be more in the foreground, and separating the "white" members from the "Black" members once a week might raise flags. In Plum Bun, all the characters define themselves as Black, even though they are treated wildly disparately by society. So each character evolves their own set of conclusions instead of having the danger discussed out in the open.
Of course, the whole story would be different in an integrated family, but this is how my brain is trying to tease out the slippery elements unique to "passing"...
Ok - I am finished with Part One Market.Are we ready to speak to that part yet?
I am enjoying the story (as I have almost all of the books from the Harlem Renaissance era).
Yes, I think the writing here seems a little bit more formal/stiff than Nella Larsen's Passing if I remember correctly.
Another difference I think between the two books - is that Passing was told more in a flashback/present format as the person who was passing reconnected with a black girlfriend who has done well and passing person integrates herself back with blacks despite having a racist husband.
Plum Bun is a linear novel so will see the effects of passing in a more linear line.
Columbus wrote: "I read two other books on "passing" and they were both excellent: James Weldon Johnson's The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man and, of course, [author:Nella Larsen|78..."Yes, I also enjoyed those books. In fact Nella Larsen's book is one of the few books that I have re-read twice!
Michael wrote: "I just got this one from the library and am about 30 pages into it. While I'd admit she is a good writer, I have had some trouble getting into it as there is something about it that comes off as d..."I would think that the mother's attitude towards passing would be more nuanced as you said - after all she is an adult and has had many more life experiences.
I thought Angela's reaction was normal for a child (especially a somewhat sheltered child) as while children are often perspective to what is going on they often do not have the fully picture and/or the maturity to fully understand what they are saying.
One of the studies that helped the Supreme Court finally rule that separate was not equal was the Clark Doll study where black children thought the white dolls are nicer.
Beverly wrote: "Ok - I am finished with Part One Market.Are we ready to speak to that part yet?"
My table of contents is:
Introduction by Deborah McDowell (I am skipping because it has spoilers)
Home
Market
Plum Bun
Home Again
Market is Done
I think we are currently discussing the first section "Home" which in my book ends at page 83. Does that sound right?
Michael wrote: "Beverly wrote: "Ok - I am finished with Part One Market.Are we ready to speak to that part yet?"
My table of contents is:
Introduction by Deborah McDowell (I am skipping because it has spoilers)..."
Sorry those are the sections that I have so I have just finished Home.
Reading on ebook so do not have pages.
In Home I liked how we learn about the dynamics of the family, the marriage, and the parent's hope for their daughters.A couple of thoughts that came to mind:
- I really enjoyed reading about the loveable marriage between Junius and Mattie.
- Mattie's last employer was throwing her to wolves - it seemed like her employer didn't care that she would be sexually molested or that she was jealous of Mattie's beauty and wanted to bring down a peg and let her know she did not have much worth as a black woman.
- Junius was her savior
Beverly wrote: "In Home I liked how we learn about the dynamics of the family, the marriage, and the parent's hope for their daughters.A couple of thoughts that came to mind:
- I really enjoyed reading about the..."
I think you must mean Mattie. Angela is the daughter.
William wrote: "Just started reading today and I absolutely love the way the author set the table from the very beginning. She set out the family dynamics and psychology from the get go. Mattie "passes" as a silly..."Here are my thoughts on why Junius does not seem to mind Mattie her little outings.
This is from the Home section which we are now discussing:
Despite Mattie being fair enough to pass - she has had a hard life at the hands of her white employers. And her future was going bleak until Junius asked her to marry him.
They seem to genuinely care for each other.
But what Junius has provided Mattie was a "comfortable" life - she no longer has to work outside the home, they own their own home, - in other words in a time where a woman was "exxpected" to marry and opportunities were slim - Mattie was now living a life she probably only dreamed about and all because of Junius. So while those forays into the white world allowed because of her fair skin - it was her dark skinned husband that made her comfortable for who she really was a colored woman.
William wrote: "Beverly wrote: "In Home I liked how we learn about the dynamics of the family, the marriage, and the parent's hope for their daughters.A couple of thoughts that came to mind:
- I really enjoyed r..."
Thanks - I corrected the post.
Michael wrote: " In Plum Bun, all the characters define themselves as Black, even though they are treated wildly disparately by society. So each character evolves their own set of conclusions instead of having the danger discussed out in the open."I have to tell you of my own family. My grandfather on my father's side was born into slavery, son of the "Master." Grandfather was fair-skinned with blue eyes. He had a brother who looked like him except he was medium-brown complexion. Grandfather married a slave who was native American. So my Dad and his siblings were all fair-skinned. He had one brother who left home and was never heard from again. We always assumed that he "passed." There were five sisters who graduated from Spelman College, where many of their classmates were also fair.
My Dad never wanted to talk about his bloodline. If I asked if he had "Indian" blood, he would say, "maybe so." If I asked if his grandfather was white, he would say, "We don't talk about that."
Most of the family continued to live in the south, where they were usually identified as fair-skinned Negroes, and it was only those who left to go north who had a questionable identity.
Columbus wrote: "Thanks for that writers insight on how that works, Sarah. I guess that is what the author is doing for the most part, telling and not showing.But, I'm really enjoying how she presents this tale. ..."
Yes, I think you are right on, Nella Larsen also pays attention to the detail of clothing and furnishings in the book Passing... Fauset's writing style is compatible with Wharton's in their attention to women.
I was curious has anyone read anything by Dubois? I have The Souls of Black Folk but haven't read it yet.
Mod
I'm embarrassed to admit, I attempted to read that about 7 or 8 years ago and couldn't get into it. Never picked it up again but I guess I should try.
Columbus and all - sorry for bing late to the table. busy day. opening the entire book on the 21st sounds like a good idea.Michael, thank you for sharing your own family's history with us.
one thread that also resonates and that William refers to is Mattie and Junius' love for one another. it's interesting to see how the sisters' relationship with one another unfolds.
Mod
Janet wrote: "Michael, thank you for sharing your own family's history with us. one ..."
Wish I could say that I had, but that was Sarah. Thank you, Sarah!
Sarah, from the complexity of your own family and what they talked about/didn't talk about, I guess I would have to reassess and say no two families are going to react the same way to their situation, and that my trying to distinguish "white" from "Black passing white" is just a technicality amidst a complicated issue. Hearing Angela's internal dialogue and that of other characters helps expose the complexity, but my guess is that reading just one book on passing is really only allowing me to scratch the surface...
sorry, Sarah. reading too quickly. Thank you.
Rebecca wrote: "I was curious has anyone read anything by Dubois? I have The Souls of Black Folk but haven't read it yet."I loved, loved, loved that one, but that might have been because I was so unaware of the history at the time I read it, and it explained so much of the history of American racism to me. It is due a reread, but scanning my copy now, I had forgotten how academic it is, although not dry exactly because DuBois certainly had a way with words. It feels a lot like "homework", albeit very enlightening homework. It was how I first found out about the Freedmen's Bank, which was set up separately from the white banks, to handle all the financial transactions of the freed slaves, and encourage thrift, until its fifteen million dollars folded in bankruptcy, "but that was the least of the loss, - all the faith in saving went too, and much of the faith in men", according to DuBois.
But we digress; that was written in 1903 before the Harlem Renaissance. I have read DuBois' science fiction story(!) The Comet, written in 1920, and thought it was great.
Kathleen wrote: "There had to be a lot of inner turmoil. I just did not feel that when reading the book."Janet wrote: "one thread that also resonates and that William refers to is Mattie and Junius' love for one another. it's interesting to see how the sisters' relationship with one another unfolds. "
Yes, where Mattie and Junius seem not only at ease with each other but with an understanding that borders on the divine, Angela and Virginia seem to be worlds apart. The climactic scene at the end of "Home" where it is clear they have totally different approaches to the world, was distressing. And yet, that is where I was surprised that I had not seen any distress on the part of Angela. Was it really so easy to dismiss Virginia and count her as just one of the sacrifices of her new life, with no tears? These were sisters who put their headboards together so they could talk to each other at night, I just felt like we should have seen more turmoil from Angela about losing her.
Sarah wrote: "Michael wrote: " In Plum Bun, all the characters define themselves as Black, even though they are treated wildly disparately by society. So each character evolves their own set of conclusions inste..."Similar stories in my own family Sarah. While I don't personalty know of any relative that may have passed, my Father was raised in Southern Va. not more than 10 miles from where (The Immortal) Henrietta Lacks lived. If you remember her story there were the White Lacks and the Colored Lacks. He remembers her family vividly and says that like hers there were members of his extended family that he knew he was related to but never friendly with. Probably because they lived their life as White people.
Of course this whole argument is a bit absurd. Why is a person who is 99 percent white even considered to be passing because he has perhaps less than 1 percent Black blood in them. How this insanity came to be was best laid out for me in "One Drop of Blood: The American Misadventure of Race" by Malcomson, Scott L. I highly recommend it.
In a really startling coincidence one of my fathers most white looking aunts/cousins lived at 16th and Girard in Philly just one block from one of the settings in this book!
Saw this on Tumblr. Can't vouch for its veracity, but talk about the ultimate passing! http://kemetic-dreams.tumblr.com/imag...
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
Passing (other topics)The Autobiography of an Ex-colored Man (other topics)
Sweeter the Juice: A Family Memoir in Black and White (other topics)
A Chosen Exile: A History of Racial Passing in America (other topics)
A Chosen Exile: A History of Racial Passing in America (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jessie Redmon Fauset (other topics)Nella Larsen (other topics)
James Weldon Johnson (other topics)
Shirlee Taylor Haizlip (other topics)
Allyson Hobbs (other topics)
More...
Group member Janet was kind enough to inform us that Plum Bun: A Novel without a Moral is available as a Pdf download.! The discussion for Plum Bun will begin March 1st. Thanks again, Janet!
https://ia902708.us.archive.org/12/it...