Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Discussion: Plum Bun
William wrote: "Of course this whole argument is a bit absurd. Why is a person who is 99 percent white even considered to be passing because he has perhaps less than 1 percent Black blood in them. How this insanity came to be was best laid out for me in "One Drop of Blood: The American Misadventure of Race" by Malcomson, Scott L. I highly recommend it."I wonder how many generations it takes to decide the 1 percent. In my upbringing, it was defined as one drop of "Negro" blood. I might be browner or whiter than my octoroon sister, as in the case of Angela and Virginia.
We would be remiss to discuss Jessie Redmon Fauset’s novel, PLUM BUN: A NOVEL WITHOUT A MORAL, without saying something about Deborah McDowell’s excellent introduction to the novel. Her introductory material enlightens us not only about Fauset as a writer, but about the times in which she wrote, particularly the Harlem Renaissance and the “New Negro Literature” of that period. McDowell’s research is fascinating and belongs in the book, and it shouldn’t be skipped over in one’s reading of the novel.The only question is: Should the introduction in the book be read before or after reading the novel itself? This is a difficult question to answer, and I’m not going to try to really answer it, because it depends on many factors. I will only say that if the reader wants to get a real feel of Jessie Redmon Fauset’s skill and power as a novelist, such as did she successfully suspend your disbelief and draw you into her black middle-class world of Old Philadelphia, than perhaps you should think about reading the novel unaided by Ms. McDowell’s material, and read the introduction later.
Will Gibson
Novelist
http://www.amazon.com/Will-Gibson/e/B...
Mod
I would imagine many, if not most, are missing this introduction by Ms. McDowell. I have two different versions of this book and it's not in either one. I'll have to check the Internet and see if it's available anywhere. Thanks for that info.
Hi Columbus: The McDowell introduction is in my Beacon Press edition, Black Women's Series, and the introduction first appeared in a Beacon paperback in 1990 (ISBN 978-0-8070-0919-2. I purchased the book through Amazon. com only a few weeks ago. I hope this helps you to locate it. Beacon should be happy that you are helping to keep this important book alive.
Will Gibson
Novelist
http://www.amazon.com/Will-Gibson/e/B...
also looking - some leads here: https://www.google.com/search?q=debor...will try tomorrow for something more substantive. Thanks, Will, for letting us know. I loved the novel without prior exposure -if we can locate the introduction it might be good to discuss towards the end of the month, once everyone has finished reading the novel itself?
I feel like I don't know much or understand exactly what Harlem Renaissance is any suggestions for literature or links would be great for me.
Janet wrote: "also looking - some leads here: https://www.google.com/search?q=debor...will try tomorrow for something more substa..."
Janet:
Do you want me to try to find another copy of the edition I have and have it mailed to you or Columbus?
Will Gibson
Novelist
http://www.amazon.com/Will-Gibson/e/B...
hi, Willthanks. it might make sense to send to Columbus, or if it's not too long, do you have access to a scanner to send it to him, please? probably unwise, given copyright considerations, to post the whole thing.
Columbus, others- what do you think?
alternatively, I can comb through some of the commentary on the commentary and see if there are useful quotes to share?
also, will try to see if there are useful overviews of the Harlem Renaissance to share. (There are, of course, just need to be identified.)
if others have resources to share, please jump in
Thsnks, all
Mod
Because Will spoke so highly of it, I went searching the Internet and lo and behold it's available online (See below). Really good stuff from Deborah McDowell and we would be remiss not to discuss some of it -- a lot of it. Whatever works for you, Janet. I was extremely careful and jumped over the area's that detailed parts I haven't read yet (I'm 70 pages from finishing). Really good stuff here.
Thanks again, Will!
https://books.google.com/books?id=ma0...
Janet wrote: "hi, Willthanks. it might make sense to send to Columbus, or if it's not too long, do you have access to a scanner to send it to him, please? probably unwise, given copyright considerations, to po..."
Janet & Columbus:
Good morning, guys. Try this link for Deborah McDowell's entire introduction, titled "Introduction: Regulating Midwives."
https://books.google.com/books?id=ma0...
I found it at Google Books. Enjoy! If the link doesn't work, let me know and we will go back to the drawing board.
Will Gibson
Novelist
http://www.amazon.com/Will-Gibson/e/B...
thanks so much. leaving for work, but will sort through - and hope others might as time and interest allow. As ever,grateful for the group's collective wisdom
Sarah wrote: "William wrote: "Of course this whole argument is a bit absurd. Why is a person who is 99 percent white even considered to be passing because he has perhaps less than 1 percent Black blood in them. ..."I too find the concept of what defines race in a socialogical/legal definition in US (and other countries) and even more fascinating how it has changed over time.
It took some time for the US to codify the "1 drop rule" and many states had varying rules and there were even at times rules on when a Negro" could be re-classified as white.
And as the population of the US comes more "mixed" or less 100% white in the future - I wonder how this will affect the racial categories in the US - it seems to be more and more categories to choose from on the Census reports.
I have discussed Nella Larsen's Passing with two different bookclubs in prior years. Both times the book discussions ran over not only because of the book but because of the discussion on the concept of passing.I became aware of passing when growing on in the 50s and learning of the different forms of passing when listening to the adults talking. I have family members who "disappeared" into the white world to pass, other who were passing and periodically would visit the family members but never with their white spouses or children, if they had any. And other relatives who could have passed did visit them but w/o their spouses who could not pass.
But most common in my family is what I call "convenient" passing where as Mattie did, but most of the time it was for employment purposes. I remember my uncle telling the story that on his application form for race - he put human and the person interviewing him laughed and said he had a good sense of humor, and he got the job and the employer put white on his application.
Another uncle worked many years at an insurance company - put his children through college, and then at his retirement luncheon brought his wife and children and his boss was outraged because he realized then that my uncle was a Negro.
Columbus wrote: "I would have swore the housekeeper Hetty Daniels would have been taken from Gone with the Wind's Hattie McDaniel but I think GWTW was written later. i thought presenting that housekeeper in the sto..."I also did a double take at the name of the housekeeper.
I also thought mentioning that the housekeeper was dark skinned was a comment on class and color, and types of work that was available to women at this time.
I think class was important (or at least implied) for the Murray family.
The parents definitely wanted the best for their children (and who doesn't) but the young men that hang around the house also seem to be ambitious.
Will wrote: "Good morning, guys. Try this link for Deborah McDowell's entire introduction, titled "Introduction: Regulating Midwives."https://books.google.com/books?id=ma0..."
That link lost something in the translation.
just started this today. only about 30 pages into it. can't say I know what to make of it so far, but with so much commentary on this already, I'll press on.
Sarah, try this? think you need to click directly on the link - not copy and paste, because the message box truncated the URL. https://books.google.com/books?id=ma0...
Janet,That works, but now I have reached my reading limit for the book. How did that happen?
that I don't know. how many pages were you able to access?
I just started the book today, I'm glad to see that there is already such a lively discussion going on! Like some others, I find the narration a bit off-putting. I'm getting used to it as the novel picks up steam though.
Well, after I did that, I found the full link, and I was able to see the whole book. But I would really like to copy just the introduction.If I paste the full link here, I know Goodreads will truncate it, putting me back where I started.
Beverly wrote: "I too find the concept of what defines race in a socialogical/legal definition in US (and other countries) and even more fascinating how it has changed over time."Can't remember if I've mentioned it with this group before, but with the milestone of the Obama Presidency, I have occasionally tried to picture an alternate world where Mr. Obama was our first white President. (I.e., he has the same mother and father, but is considered white because of an alternate "one (white) drop" rule.) Our definitions sometimes boggle the mind...
Rebecca wrote: "I feel like I don't know much or understand exactly what Harlem Renaissance is any suggestions for literature or links would be great for me."For research, I always start with Wikipedia. I'm now a donor because I think of them as an internet necessity!
I checked out their Harlem Renaissance Page and it seems like a good place to start. They have a large section at the bottom listing major contributors and their works; I noticed of the 27 novels listed, Plum Bun: A Novel without a Moral and Passing were included.
good morning, everyone. Sarah, sorry for the hassles with the introduction Don't know that there is a way to copy only it. I did just read it and noticed that it does contain some spoilers,so people might want to wait to read it.
meanwhile I'm also wondering about the contrasts in the way that novel was received at the time of its publication and the subsequent varying readings and understandings of it over time.
As we finish the week, wondering what else people are noting, pondering, wanting to discuss
Mod
It's funny, while reading the novel I was a little amused by all the French terms she uses...
Raconteur Raconteuse
Haut mond
Raison d' etre
Qui vive
Cachet
de trop
...and I just picked up on that beginning in the second chapter so I missed quite a bit and i'm still reading the book. Then I found out Fauset graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Cornell with a major in classical languages and from the University of Pennsylvania with an M.A. in French. Interesting.
Columbus wrote: "You ask about how the book was received at the time of publication. Well, it seems like several of the black critics were sort of critical of her book/writing. Many of them wanted her and other black writers to "protest" more about what was happening at the time in this country with lynchings occurring frequently and particularly in the south. Leroi Jones (Amiri Baraka) was especially critical of her ilk and expressed it in his essay, "the myth of a negro literature." Although Fauset seems to have grown up with rather humble roots, she was considered by many to be part of the black bourgeoisie. Being the first black in many of the fancy schools she attended."I only just started the "Plum Bun" section of the book, so my opinion may change by the end of it, but to me Fauset seems pretty critical of Angela. I don't want to give too much away since "Market" isn't open for discussion yet, but although Fauset does humanize and offer a rationale for Angela's choices and aspirations, to me it seems she clearly prefers Virginia and her take on things and makes Angela seem kind of frivolous, precious, shallow (I'm struggling to find the right word here; these don't fit perfectly but have elements of what I'm getting at). So I'm guessing that the criticism is that it focuses on the black middle class experience at all? Fauset sort of gives a shout out to that viewpoint in the discussions that the young men have at the Murray house--the race vs the individual discourse. I haven't read his criticism so I could be off-base but it sounds like Baraka would contend that Fauset shouldn't have written about her own experience, or that her experience wasn't appropriate to write about, until the "race" had been "elevated" or the "big problems" had been taken care of first (i.e., "there are some things with an individual might want, but which he'd just have to give up forever for the sake of the more important whole," in Virginia's words). Edited to add: Of course I think being lynched is a bigger problem than deciding whether or not to pass, I wasn't trying to imply that with my quotation marks! But I think it's clear that both lynchings and Angela's dilemma spring from the same source (racism), and there are so many varied experiences that are all worth sharing and hearing. It's not as if Fauset is saying "Lynchings aren't important." It sounds like she's just writing what she is familiar with herself.
thanks for this, Paige. I agree - it felt Ike Angela was being written as a fluffy sort of person and the critique that literature should have addressed more substantive issues does seem to pull the whole novel into question during the era of its publication. fast forward ninety years and it's also as possible to consider that Fauset is calling all the implication of race, power, class and gender into question within the frame of the black middle class,
what are others thinking?
Columbus wrote: "You ask about how the book was received at the time of publication. Well, it seems like several of the black critics were sort of critical of her book/writing. Many of them wanted her and other bla..."I can see where some would be critical of Plum Bun. But I also think that Faust has a message she wanted to convey to the Black middle class at the time.
By the end of Home, I can see the direction the storyline is taking and the message Faust wants to make to her readers. In fact for me - it has a little bit of a "preachy" tone that I found carried over into "Market" section.
At the end of "Home" I wondered the following:- I wondered how Angela would have made the same choice to pass if her parents were still living? It was their death and the assets left to the sisters that gave Angela the opportunity.
- Angela seems to "romanticize" what her life would be like if she passed. I wondered if her mother was still alive - would she have told Angela about her experience and some of the realities of passing.
I had to smile at the title "Market" for the section after "Home" because it surely seems like Angela put herself out there to be picked over and be able to bought for the right price.
Mod
There's been much talk very recently as to the responsibility of African American authors to speak about race exclusively in novels. Personally I don't think that's fair. I don't think it is now, and I don't think it should've been back in 1929 or when Baraka spoke on the subject.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=ht...
I think that Fauset is speaking more to the debilitating and daily insults that Blacks endure due to what we now call white privilege and also to the slights that women endure at the hands of male privilege. She doesn't take on the larger racism and Jim Crow oppression of the time. She mainly seems to concentrate on the hurt feelings engendered by denial of theater entrance and service at restaurants. Such bourgeois and middle class concerns in the face of economic and legal oppression certainly invite criticism.
William wrote: "I think that Fauset is speaking more to the debilitating and daily insults that Blacks endure due to what we now call white privilege and also to the slights that women endure at the hands of male ..."while I don't disagree, I'm more inclined to think she's dealing with the effect of pervasive racism in the North away from the more obvious Jim Crow racism of the South with all it's more obvious violence and danger. Racism in the North and South proved very large obstacles to overcome.
Baraka is writing in a different era when it became obvious that the earlier efforts to work towards equality in the North had largely failed or at the very least run into a rather short dead end. His radicalism was fueled by the failures of those who proceeded him, so he came to the conclusion that efforts towards equality and integration were doomed to failure and therefore pointless. W.E.B. Dubois lived in both eras and eventually came to the same conclusion, eventually becoming radicalize and a communist and moving to Ghana. At the time this book was published he was very much on the other side and fighting it out daily with Marcus Garvey for the Souls of Black Folks. Garvey despised Dubois both for his political positions and his mulatto heritage.
There is a recent non-fiction book on the subject of passing.
A Chosen Exile: A History of Racial Passing in America by Allyson Hobbs
The author has also been featured on BookTV. Here is the link to the video:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?324595-1...
Speaking of W.E.B. DuBois, I wondered if the Van Meier character was intended to be a fictional DuBois. I may be getting ahead of the discussion.
Mod
[book:A Chosen Exile: A History of Racial Passing in Amer..."
I started reading the sample of the book provided by the publisher several days ago Beverly and the first couple of chapters are very good. My library doesn't carry it and I was going to purchase it until I saw the $29.99 price.
I answered my own question after reading the notes on Wikipedia. Yes, Van Meier is a fictional DuBois.
Mod
Aah, that makes sense now. Nice job, Sarah!
Mod
http://www.brown.edu/academics/race-e..."
Interesting. The panel includes Allyson Hobbs, the author of A Chosen Exile. I wouldn't have thought this would be a subject folk would be interested in. Thanks, Janet!
Columbus wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I answered my own question after reading the notes on Wikipedia. Yes, Van Meier is a fictional DuBois."Aah, that makes sense now. Nice job, Sarah!"
yes, thanks. I'll have to keep an eye out for him.
good morning, allAre we ready to move to the next piece?
[Now - through March 9 - the first section to start (83pp), to give people a chance to start/acquire the book and get into the discussion.
week of March 9 - 20 double up for these sections - Market and Plum Bun totaling 152 pages
What's standing out? Themes we want to pursue, plot twists?
[March 21-31 Home and Done with Market totaling 160 pages, and then for those who might want to, a consideration of the introduction and/or other critical pieces about Plum Bun, passing and the Harlem Renaissance generally ]
hello, everyone. Wondering where we are in the plot line and also wondering what questions and thoughts to pursue? We've been quiet this week. Still reading? Ruminating ?
finished the book yesterday. I would say there was one late plot twist that was rather melodramatic and more than a stretch. I have rather mixed feelings on the book overall. there were certainly aspects that were well done, especially in terms of issues. I was surprised by the prevelance of gender issues as I had expected it to concentrate mostly on race. I was previously unaware of the author, so for me it was useful just to be introduced to her. I read most of the forward after finishing the book as I became concerned about reveals, and it put a lot of what I read into perspective.
I also have finished reading. As mentioned before the storyline had a "Victorian" feel. But really liked how Fauset incorporated the sexism issues into the storyline. While this was the first novel I have read by the author what I had read about her previously was leading her voice to gender issues.
Are others noticing gender issues playing out in the text? I wonder if the contrast between the sisters overlays both race (one sister can pass, the other can't) and the choices they each make? How able were women of color to make choices at the time? How/was life different in terms of choices available for people in Harlem to people in Philadelphia?
Mod
Totally agree, George. I think the gender and class issues or statements she makes throughout the book are equally as important as the race issues - some may disagree - and I made note of some while reading. Here's a note I jotted down from chap v.:
Chapter V
After Roger has vulgarly dismissed her, she says to herself, "God isn't there anyplace where man's responsibility begins." Hilarious! Comments like these are common throughout this novel which lends it a feminist bend.
Hello, all.Spent much of Friday at a conference framed entirely around notions of passing. Film, literature, history. At some point, thinking about how power resides, and how, in different contexts, we each have more or less power and privilege, it seems we're all passing at one point or another in our lives.
More important to this conversation, though, are ideas around black and white passing and how different readings of literature at different historical moments can shape responses to authors' work. Columbus picks up on one reading in his comment about Plum Bun's feminism. I wish we could have been flies on the wall when the book was first published and people were talking about it.
Must have been a wonderful conference as it is a fascinating topic.Yes, our own experience and times does shape how we react to stories.
I have a different reaction to passing than my daughter does, then does my granddaughter (15).
When passing in the past - a lot of times it meant "disappearing", when reading Plum Bun I wondered in these times of social media/internet info is passing harder and then I think because of our times - who cares.
I thought the book had received mainly favorable reviews when originally published. Then interest waned when depression happened (as it did for most of the Renaissance writers).
Then her star starting rising again with the rise of feminist criticism she was once again viewed more favorable.
Literary Fiction by People of Color
Books mentioned in this topic
Passing (other topics)The Autobiography of an Ex-colored Man (other topics)
Sweeter the Juice: A Family Memoir in Black and White (other topics)
A Chosen Exile: A History of Racial Passing in America (other topics)
A Chosen Exile: A History of Racial Passing in America (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jessie Redmon Fauset (other topics)Nella Larsen (other topics)
James Weldon Johnson (other topics)
Shirlee Taylor Haizlip (other topics)
Allyson Hobbs (other topics)
More...
William's question - Why is a person who is 99 percent white even considered to be passing because he has perhaps less than 1 percent Black blood in them - makes me wonder about contemporary lives and how young people, finding their way and identity, might make sense of this. I wonder about the whole notion of passing either way - of being part of a community (of choice, of geography, of affinity, of self-identified race). That pulls us a bit away from the novel, but I mention it only in terms of its power to make us think and its power to convey important questions across almost 100 years.