"Sorrowland" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Come share all your thoughts on this book!

Some questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the setting?
2. What did you think of the horror element?
3. What did you think of the characters?
4. What did you think of the end?
5. What worked or didn't for you?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions
Buddy read thread here

[Will]

Finished this, and really enjoyed.

My review is below. Some of my other thoughts are:

I expect a lot of the meaning behind aspects of the book went over my head, a lot of things felt very symbolic of... something!

I didn't understand how the book that Vern liked connected to the story.

I wondered if Lucy being killed by her father at the end was symbolic of how those in power can destroy the lives of those they look after. or something like that.

I loved the two children characters, but in hindsight maybe wanted their story to go somewhere, their arc felt a little unfinished

Ollie's relationship with Vern was very interesting, and she was a much more unsettling villain than she would have been otherwise due to their initial relationship and the fact that Vern had desired her.

Feels like the sort of book that's going to stick in my mind for a while

My review:

This was such a unique and different book, blending and weaving strange and unsettling ideas into a modern American setting. The writing is simple and beautiful, the characters vivid and very lifelike despite the dreamlike and bizarre incidents they encounter.

Sorrowland combines themes of religion, racism, abuse of power and exploitation into a story that races and twists from one surprise to another. The book doesn't easily sit in any genre, and elements of fantasy, sci-fi and horror all emerge at times. My personal preference for fantasy led to a little disappointment when the mysterious magical elements of the story mostly end up being grounded in scientific rather than fantastical explanations.

The book held rather a bleak, sad tone, and when the wild and strange ideas of the story evolve, they are brought to life in a way that is so real they almost become normalised, even when they are unexplained. There is a gritty sweaty realism. This isn't light-hearted escapist fantasy.

The story continually takes new directions, and never settles. Each new arc felt different and intriguing, with adrenaline-filled action scenes arising regularly and a fast pace maintained throughout. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, found it intriguing, beautiful, touching, and captivating. It was only because the rather sad, contemplative and gritty feel of the book wasn't my personal preferred style that this doesn't get a full five stars.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Vern never seemed to want to fix her painful life very much. She didn't want to be controlled, but she went from being strapped down in a cult to being on the run, hiding, enduring stuff from being 'free' that was as bad as being controlled by the cult. Jumping from a frying pan into a fire. She chose to live in a painful freedom. I don't get it. I couldn't respect her, so I didn't like her.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

oh man, i do empathize with choosing a hardship you can control or at least feel like you can control over one you can't. especially when the thing you're escaping is constant and community accepted abuse.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

but i do agree that i never "liked" Verne. i don't like most 14-19 year olds lol. I thought she did the best she could given what she started with and I hope that with support she'll recover, but this was very much a story of "the hate you give little infants f***s everybody" for me

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I should clarify. I meant to Vern, it was only the two choices - painful freedom, painful prisoner. Either way pain pain pain. She gave herself only two choices, or the author did. No other options. Plus it was all down to her neediness for connection. Her painful freedom was down to needing love desperately. Black and White thinking, two choices only, needing love to live happy in pain, whether 'free' or captive. This story had a menu of two available choices. Live in one of two, and only two, kinds of painful struggle, both satisfying her desperate need for love above all, was all there was. The way the story is set up, Love is her biggest heaviest chain. Always a hard love, too.

This was just ick to me.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

super icky, agreed

[Rachel]

Recently finished - even thought it seems like it has ALL the trigger warnings it is somehow told in such a way that there is a remove or distance to it. So no actual scenes bothered me. Obviously lots one figured out are bothersome but not in a “have to stop reading this” way (looking at you beginning of Fifth Season)

I was kinda surprised by that

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

that's something I like about Rivers. They don't seem to focus on things to hurt. they don't objectify black pain, but they also don't shy away from what a hard reality would like like

[Jen]

I finished this last night, this was a slow start for me. Between the title and the opening chapter I almost walked away. Curiosity about what would make this a fantasy kept me going, and I ended up really enjoying it. I really really liked the critique of colonialism and the American government and slavery, I thought these elements were really well done. The themes and imagery of the history of slavery were included in what I thought was a very thoughtful way.

[Bonnie]

Here is link to the Buddy Read for Sorrowland when it came out last year (2021):

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Bonnie]

Books mentioned in Sorrowland:

Ashanti to Zulu: African Traditions - Margaret Musgrove

Giovanni's Room -James Baldwin

Margins of Philosophy - Jacques Derrida

Winter in the Blood - James Welch

Speech by Ursula K. Le Guin
https://www.ursulakleguin.com/speeches

Bear and the Princess Potluck -?

"Maybe a little Das Kapital to counter Bear and the Princess Potluck’s anti-revolutionary message?"

The Snowy Day - Ezra Jack Keates

Rural Hours - Susan Fenimore Cooper

"The Negro Speaks of Rivers"
https://poets.org/poem/negro-speaks-r...
The Collected Poems - Langston Hughes

The Adventures of Robin Hood Retold

Their Eyes Were Watching God - Zora Neale Hurston

Paradise - Toni Morrison

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I finished this last night. I enjoyed it for the most part. I think the plot got a little muddied in places and I found myself getting bored with some scenes about three quarters of the way through, mostly the sex scenes and the hauntings I think.

I had a hard time picturing what Vern looked like as she was transforming. The exoskeleton almost sounded like she had wings but I wasn't sure if they tucked into her sides or if they extended from her back or what.

Gogo was my favorite character. I also kind of liked the woman in the end- Violet-Grace's mom whose name I can't remember but her part was short lived.

Vern I didn't really dislike - but I didn't really love either, but she read authentically. She'd start to grow on me then she'd do or say something that made me take a step back again.

The writing was really beautiful. There were lots of quote-worthy passages.

And I'll echo others sentiments that though there was a lot of trauma and grief that it was written at such a distance that we didn't have to wallow in it, which I appreciated.

[Chris]

Sarah, your post covers my reactions almost exactly.

I felt sympathy for Vern, but not in a completely warm way because she was feral and prickly. Kind of like worrying that an animal you're trying to rescue is going to bite you.

I wonder how much of the story is inspired by Rivers' own life. I know that they are queer and anarchist. Did they have any experience with a Black separatist movement or a cult?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

All encouraged to come chat about Sorrowland with us in about an hour! Head over to the Virtual Book Club thread for more info!

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Gavin]

Regarding the last line of the book:

They remained until they could hear the night calls of one thousand living things, screaming their existence, assuring the world of their survival. Vern screamed back.

My take is that all the people of Cainland that were resurrected turned into monsters, like Vern. I'm not sure what to think about that.

[Bonnie]

Wow! I had not thought of that!
You could be right!!

[DivaDiane]

We had a fantastic discussion of Sorrowland yesterday at Virtual Book Club! It made me appreciate this book even more. And I do mean that I think this book is amazing. There is so much in this book, but it doesn't seem at all disconnected. Quite the opposite, I feel like Solomon's writing is so deliberate and tight, with no superfluous words or scenes. Even the (view spoiler)[sex/orgy scene toward the end (hide spoiler)] actually moved the plot along. Well, maybe not the plot but the concepts, for sure.

I consider them a contender for favorite author status a la Ursula K. LeGuin. I gain so much from their stories.

And don't get me wrong. Their stories are more like Octavia Butler's in that they make me uncomfortable and are hard to read, but so rewarding. But there is something in the quality of Solomon's prose that reminds me of UKL. Haven't quite put my finger on it. Perfectly crafted sentences, lyrical quality?

[DivaDiane]

Gavin wrote: "Regarding the last line of the book:"

I had not thought of that either. But maybe it just means that they will survive. But (view spoiler)["living things" rather than people does seem to hint at something other (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

No need to hide spoilers in this thread! :)

(Especially since people on the iOS app won't be able to see them.)

[Beth]

Sarah wrote: "I finished this last night. I enjoyed it for the most part. I think the plot got a little muddied in places and I found myself getting bored with some scenes about three quarters of the way through..."

I got bogged down at the beginning of part 3. In part it was because I participated in the online meet-up and knew how it ended, more or less, but also because I am pretty tired of "violent confrontation" as the default choice for a book's climax.

One thing that was mentioned in the meet-up was the idea that Sorrowland was written as a call-out to Black people, that it was written for them. That brought on some awkward feelings.

There are a few places with odd holes. For example, in the part toward the end where Vern and Gogo conscript a young man to drive them to the hospital, he doesn't react at all to the fact that Vern is toting around a severed head. In general, there's a pretty blasé attitude toward the death of strangers and enemies, but that's hardly unusual in genre fiction.

This isn't a funny book, but I did laugh about "electricity food," and how casually Ollie's head was chucked out a car window as Vern and Gogo went on to the next stage of their lives.

I agree with Diane that Solomon's writing is excellent. My own minor stumbling at the end aside, this was absorbing and there were quite a few striking individual sentences that made me stop to admire.

[Gavin]

I agree with Beth's assessment of the last third of the book.
What I really liked about this book is that it made me think. Whether or not it was what Solomon wanted me to think is another thing.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

@Beth I agree about the sentiment that it was written for a Black (American?) audience and I knew reading it I wasn’t really the audience for it - I don’t know that it made me uncomfortable per se but I knew there was stuff I was missing or maybe not understanding due to my own ignorance in parts of that conversation, if that makes sense.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Bonnie wrote: "Books mentioned in Sorrowland:

Ashanti to Zulu: African Traditions - Margaret Musgrove

Giovanni's Room -James Baldwin

Margins of Philosophy - Jacques Der..."

This is fantastic, thank you!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

@Beth I agree with your opinion the book is a call-out to Black-Americans. I'm dating myself, but the book had a familiar feel to me emotionally of the second-wave feminism I went through in the 1970's. I was in my twenties then and felt ENRAGED. Now, I'm more, like, tiredly pissed off.

[Beth]

I didn't say it very clearly, that wasn't my opinion per se, but something someone else in the discussion said. I wouldn't have seen it myself, tbh.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Gosh, there were so many references in this that felt like the sorts of things my friends actually talk about. Forced medical experimentation/sterilization (ongoing!) by the US gov't, the Black nationalist and separatist movements--including a dystopia/utopia that is literally rooted in Black structures!! I mean how cool!! Nation of Islam actually does have a plan for how to redo society, and I've never seen that used in specfic before. There's also the harder conversation around using a removal from white culture as a way to mask abuse within the Black communities...just a lot of really powerful stuff.
And then we get into the discussion of white feminism which is totally in solidarity with all women...until the power might shift if it stays in Black hands.

We get a shout out to indigenous folks who so often actually do accept and support, and who even more often pay for it.

So so many real world parallels in such a tiny book. And I never felt preached at or excluded, like I have in other "in group" books. It feels like the book is talking to all of us and asking all of us what would we do here. Not an easy space, but exactly the kind of thing I enjoy my fiction making me think about, and giving me a safe space to explore.

Loved the writing of course.

The one thing, and it's kinda big is I'm not sure the plot and the supernatural elements quite...fit? I mean it fit enough I guess, because like I said, so much of it is real that it can't NOT be believable. But I was hoping for a bit more meat on the bone for the sake of story. Ditto the supernatural bits. What do you think she looks like when she's fully mutated? I'm thinking like a...cicada or something?

[Beth]

Thanks for the reminder, Allison (intended or no). I was considering mentioning in the meet-up that much of the story--perhaps until the last few chapters--could have gone in a much similar way without the fungus. Vern's fleeing the compound, living in the woods, evading pursuit from Ollie or whatever other federal entity, becoming part of a found family, any and all of the lgbt content... the eventual liquidation of the compound, too for that matter, could have existed in a non-fantastical context with the themes still intact.

I pictured the wing-like parts of Vern's body much like the typical fantasy images of a bone dragon. The rest of the carapace as similar to an insect's, only bone-white, with a nubbly or rough texture and maybe some gill like things similar to the underside of a mushroom cap (maybe between the ribs or something?), where the spores would be released from

[Rachel]

Oh interesting - I had pictured the description of Queen as like a white wolf with bone wings but all of it looking like it was carved from a white mushroom fungus thing

[Mareike]

I finished this last night and I very much enjoyed it. Though I wish I had been listening to this at a time when I was less exhausted/didn’t have to take as many breaks. And as I said in my review, I think I’ll need to eye-read this at some point.

I agree with Allison’s point about Black pain in this book (and Solomon’s other books).

And I loved all the intertextuality - thanks for the list, Bonnie! The repeated references to Giovanni’s Room felt especially powerful because they highlighted how much of an impact seeing people like oneself/with desires like one’s own in books (or other media) can have on someone. Especially someone living in a repressive community.

Someone upthread mentioned the revelation about Lucy’s death toward the end of the book and I think the point behind that was to show once more that not everything bad that happened to people was the fault of the cult, but that some people are terrible on their own - especially if they feel like their power is being threatened/they’ll lose power over someone.

I also found Ruth-Anne’s memories extremely moving, such a tragic story compressed into so little time. I still kind of understand Vern not going to her mother at the end - there’s too much that happened that probably can’t be excused by Ruth-Anne’s own trauma. Or that would need some form of family therapy to work through.

I really liked Gogo and the ways in which the book addressed intersecting oppressions by having important Native American characters. And it was good do see Vern experience a healthier relationship after all the manipulation Ollie put her through.
When Ollie appeared as the social worker in Ruth-Anne’s memories, I was ready to throw things.

I also think Queen was a fascinating and horrifying character. There’s a lot to unpack with her that I haven’t had the time to do yet.

It did feel like the ending was quite abrupt? Though, to be fair, I was packing boxes while listening to the lat 5 or so chapters last night, so maybe I was just distracted. Still, I would gladly read a sequel that explores what happens after Vern uses the fungus to bring all these people back.

[Bonnie]

Mareike wrote: "I also found Ruth-Anne’s memories extremely moving, such a tragic story compressed into so little time. I still kind of understand Vern not going to her mother at the end - there’s too much that happened that probably can’t be excused by Ruth-Anne’s own trauma. Or that would need some form of family therapy to work through."

Yes. I said that on the VBC call too... Vern brought her mother back, she resurrected her, but still refused to forgive or speak to her.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This bit reminded me of Sorrowland, from "We Write" poem in Call Us What We Carry:

It is loss, as well as logic, 
When we cry: 
May those laid to rest never leave us, 
 But lead us to rise. 
We lived. 
& that was more than we asked for.
We, too, must howl ourselves ablaze.

[Mareike]

I wonder if forgiveness might become possible for Vern in time. But at the very end of the novel all the wounds were too fresh. It definitely would have felt out of character for Vern to completely forgive her.

Also, I was thinking about how here and in An Unkindness of Ghosts we learn important details abput the protagonist's mother very late in the novel. (I don't think there's a similar revelation in The Deep, or maybe I've just forgotten about it.) And generally how important mothers and mother-figures are in Solomon's novels.

Lastly, I love that quote!