Language Learners and Polyglots discussion
Our 2022 Foreign Language Reading Challenge Group Status Chat
Berengaria wrote: "This process takes a much longer time and a lot of repetition. It's normally why spending 15-30 minutes every day reviewing vocabulary is universally recommended."Great idea in practice but in reality, 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours per day when you're trying to stay on top of the learning and practicing for2 to 3 languages is a tall order to stay on top of.
Lenka wrote: "I started my first non-English book of the year, Patria by Fernando Aramburu. It's going well, the chapters are short so it feels like I'm making good progress :-) But the book has over 600 pages, ..."I have read this.
Paul wrote: "Great idea in theory.."You can easily spend 15 minutes a day with 2 languages. That's only a half hour tops. Better is to do a bit more, but on different days.
I know many people are heavily resistant to the idea of actually spending time with their language. They imagine 15 minutes of language study as this monumental undertaking that needs tons of prep time, massive commitment, special gear, and a whole host of things they don't think/want to involve themselves in.
Not true. Just sitting down and doing Memrise for 15 minutes is enough. Or reading for 15 minutes. It doesn't even that to be that. It could be just talking to yourself in Spanish while you take a walk, or fold the laundry.
Polyglots and lang hobbyists actually DO spend around 2 hours a day practicing and improving their languages (I spend around 1 hour per day) . But they are the Olympic athletes of lang learning, so it doesn't tired them out like it would most other people.
The point is: learning a lang is a skill. Like swimming. If you don't actually jump in the water and practice, you may know a lot about swimming, but you'll never be able to actually swim.
Kalliope wrote: "The joining of two words with a "de" - isn't that equivalent to the German sticking them together?"Good question. I don't think so because in the Romance languages, it's always noun + noun combinations with a "link". Brosse à dents..."brush for teeth". That's a description, an explanation of something. "This is a brush that's used on teeth".... not a unique word that represents the idea.
German can attach any kind of word -- noun, verb, adjective, preposition -- to any other kind of word to create a whole new idea. "Schaufensterpuppe" for example, is not an explanation, but a complete idea containing verb+noun+noun. There's no indication of its use, only what it is.
Berengaria wrote: "Paul wrote: "Great idea in theory.."You can easily spend 15 minutes a day with 2 languages. That's only a half hour tops. Better is to do a bit more, but on different days.
I know many people a..."
I don't begrudge the time and I certainly know it's required to improve one's skills and language level. I just struggle to find that time each and every day. Four languages (French, German, Spanish and Danish) crossed with three activities - new learning; novel or story reading; and practicing, drilling or vocabulary practice - and the time mounts up very quickly. To do all four languages full justice and treat each of them seriously and equally would easily consume 2 to 3 hours each and every day.
Not bitchin', of course, but I just have to recognize that practice in every language simply isn't going to happen every day.
Kalliope wrote: I have read this.Awesome - we can compare notes when I'm done :-)
It's an easy read so far (as far as language goes) and I'm enjoying it, though I'm not entirely impressed.
Paul wrote: I don't begrudge the time and I certainly know it's required to improve one's skills and language level. I just struggle to find that time each and every day. Four languages..."I hear you!
With five languages to keep up and one that I'm currently studying, I know the struggle all too well! I spend most of my time with my newest/weakest language (Japanese at the moment) and pick one other language that I want to focus on (Spanish right now). Reading is actually how I keep the other languages from deteriorating too much. Then after a few months, I pick up another one to re-activate.
With seven languages to maintain, and a family to feed, and a piano to play, I just had to accept that I won't be perfectly fluent in all of them all the time. As long as I can read in them, however, I'm happy :-D
Just for the heck of it, I decided to try my hand at reverse-translating a piece of the French LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD BACK into English as I under stood it. I thought that would be an interesting test of my real comprehension of the French text. This is my (admittedly amateur) translation of the opening paragraph of Chapter 24 back into English.“I felt terribly ill at ease and I scarcely remember what happened afterward. There were exclamations and cries of surprise. When I once again became sufficient master of myself to realize what was happening, Ralph Paton was standing next to his wife, whose hand he held in his own, and he was smiling at me across the room.”
And here is the actual English text of the same paragraph as Agatha Christie wrote it:
“It was a very uncomfortable minute for me. I hardly took in what happened next, but there were exclamations and cries of surprise. When I was sufficiently master of myself to be able to realize what was going on, Ralph Paton was standing by his wife, her hand in his, and he was smiling across the room at me.”
I was pleased on two counts. First of all, it said to me that I had a good grasp of French text at the level of a novel such as THE MURDER OF ROGER ACKROYD. And secondly, it said to me that the translator was trying pretty darn hard to preserve the spirit of Agatha Christie’s style of writing with no attempt to make any untoward modifications.
What do you think?
Paul wrote: "Just for the heck of it, I decided to try my hand at reverse-translating a piece of the French LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD BACK into English as I under stood it. I thought that would be an interest..."Wow, well done! Have you tried translating back to French again?
Lenka wrote: "Wow, well done! Have you tried translating back to French again?"Well, now that I've seen the actual French translation, that would be sorta cheating, wouldn't it? But, it's an interesting suggestion. I'll take you up on the challenge with my next French novel. It'll be interesting to see how idiomatic my ham-handed attempts turn out to be, LOL! (For now, I think I'm still going to stick with French translations of fairly simple novels translated into French)
Once I determine that the translation from English into French is fairly rigid without wandering off into Neverland, then what I can do is jump a few pages ahead and select an English passage to try my hand at matching the efforts of the professional translator.
Great idea!
Paul wrote: "Lenka wrote: "Wow, well done! Have you tried translating back to French again?"Well, now that I've seen the actual French translation, that would be sorta cheating, wouldn't it? But, it's an inte..."
No cheating at all! :-)
It's actually a great learning technique - it helps you activate vocabulary (it's easier when you translate to your mother tongue, but can be quite a challenge the other way) and shows what you still need to learn (prepositions (argh), idioms, verb tenses...). I sometimes do the same passage back and forth a couple of times (on different days); it feels great when I finally get things right :-)
Lenka wrote: "Paul wrote: "Lenka wrote: " shows what you still need to learn (prepositions (argh),"Perhaps you're right. Maybe I should give it a try. I notice you point out prepositions as being difficult. I always said to my wife that any person with half a brain can memorize a given language's word for "house" but it's the teeny words (most notably prepositions) that will separate the men from the boys. There are a zillion ways to translate in, to, at, of and so on and, in any given context, only one out of those zillion is going to be truly correct.
Paul wrote: "Lenka wrote: "Paul wrote: "Lenka wrote: " shows what you still need to learn (prepositions (argh),"Perhaps you're right. Maybe I should give it a try. I notice you point out prepositions as being..."
Or the women from the girls, in my case :-) Exactly!
Lenka wrote: "Or the women from the girls, in my case :-)"Perhaps we should create a 21st century version of that particular English idiom, how about, "Separate the grown-ups from the toddlers"?
For the French readers in the group, here's the review that I posted (en français, bien sûr) for LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD. All criticism or suggested corrections to my French are welcome ... just be gentle!https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Paul wrote: "For the French readers in the group, here's the review that I posted (en français, bien sûr) for LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD. All criticism or suggested corrections to my French are welcome ... jus..."Congratulations!👏 And fantastic that you wrote the review in French. I'm not sure Christie is C1, however. What led you to that level?
Berengaria wrote: "Paul wrote: "For the French readers in the group, here's the review that I posted (en français, bien sûr) for LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD. All criticism or suggested corrections to my French are we..."Do you think she's only B2 in French?
I finished Patria by Fernando Aramburu, my first out of six books in Spanish planned for 2022.It is a story of two families living in a small Basque town and the consequences the activities of the ETA separatist group had for the lives of ordinary people.
Language-wise it wasn't too difficult and quite engaging, so I was able to finish its 642 pages faster than expected. And I even learned a few Basque words :-)
As a book - a bit of a disappointment. It's a vast mosaic of characters, but they are rather flat and have basically no growth, even though we follow them over several decades. I had hoped it would shed some light on the reasons why people decided to join ETA and the general background of the Basque independence movement, but none is provided.
The writer uses a very particular style that reminded me of language textbooks (She went to bed early. At what time?/He received a letter. Who wrote the letter?) and sometimes changes the narrator in mid-sentence (from 3rd person to 1st person) which was interesting at first but got kind of annoying by page 300 or so.
Lenka wrote: "I finished Patria by Fernando Aramburu, my first out of six books in Spanish planned for 2022.It is a story of two families living in a small Basque town and the consequences the activities of the..."
Congratulations, Lenka. That's obviously WAY beyond my skill level in Spanish and almost certainly will be for some time to come. I'd like to think I'll get there ... some day!
Paul wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "Paul wrote: "For the French readers in the group, here's the review that I posted (en français, bien sûr) for LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD. All criticism or suggested corrections ..."I asked you, Paul. What indicated C1 to you?
Lenka wrote: "I finished Patria by Fernando Aramburu, my first out of six books in Spanish planned for 2022.It is a story of two families living in a small Basque town and the consequences the activities of the..."
Congratulations! 1 down, 5 more to go! 👏 The novel sounds like it could have used some editing, but 600+ pages is certainly a reading achievement.
Well done Lenka. That book is a great accomplishment. I’m very impressed. I’ve read some multi-generation books too (only in English). Some are great, others not so great.
Berengaria wrote: "I asked you, Paul. What indicated C1 to you?"Full use of the entire range of tenses available to French; full use of subjunctive; the mere fact that it is an adult novel written for an adult audience but without literary pretensions or specialized vocabulary that would certainly elevate it to C2; complicated tense constructions of odd verbs such as can (can, could, could have, will have been able to, would have been able to, will be able to) that took some mental effort to de-scramble; compound verb constructions in the same fashion (e.g. I might have been able to go, I can't help thinking with an idiomatic verb in place of help, I can't prevent myself from thinking, "je ne puis m'empêcher de croire que ..."), some older vocabulary that has now gone out of fashion (I remember passing over one that talked about a woman's reaching her "time of confinement" at the end of a pregnancy).
I also think that any adult novel written for an adult audience (my opinion only, of course) is, by definition, at a high B2 or C1 level in any language UNLESS the language is purposely dialed down to simpler levels such as is the case with newspaper writing.
Your turn?!
Berengaria wrote: "I asked you, Paul. What indicated C1 to you?"I opened the original English book in the middle of nowhere and selected a sample paragraph that seemed very representative of the style and difficulty level of the entire book. Here it is:
But at that moment it came to me - the resemblance that had haunted me all along, something familiar in the defiance of Charles Kent's manner. The two voices, one rough and coarse, the other painfully ladylike - were strangely the same in timbre. It was of Miss Russell that I had been reminded that night outside the gates of Fernly Park. I looked at Poirot, full of my discovery, and he gave me an imperceptible nod."
I've taken the international Spanish test and I'm testing out pretty consistently at A2-B1 and I know for absolutely sure that there is NO way that I could read a Spanish translation of that paragraph and make any sense of it. Ditto with German.
Paul wrote: I opened the original English book in the middle of nowhere and selected a sample paragraph that seemed very representative of the ..."
From your sample paragraph in English: middle B1 grammar. The vocab is beginning- middle B2.
The subjunctive in French is listed as a B1 function (at least the more common tenses) and is normally introduced after all the tenses in traditional classes/books, which are A-level functions. (Shocking, huh? ALL French tenses are A-level.)
Most adult novels are normally no higher than B2. C-level novels are rare and, as you pointed out, normally highly literary, complicated or just plain old.
I've read 3 Christies in my poorer langs and would place them all at an upper B1 level with some paragraphs foraying into B2. (1 in Spanish and 2 in Swedish.)
Just like people often vastly underestimate how much grammar is involved in the A-levels, so too they underestimate how much vocabulary is in the B-levels. Just about anything you'll find where normal language is spoken/written won't be above B2, even if meant for native speakers. (and the labels on learner books are normally calibrated higher than they are)
You can lead a very happy life at a solid B1 level, both in speaking and reading. Takes a good 4-5 years of study to get there if you're starting at zero, though. (I'm talking of traditional learning and not intensive courses or living in country)
Congrats on the testing! When you test at an A2-B1 level, it means you are an end A2, beginning B1. That's miles away from a solid B1 or an upper B1 however. It's too bad they haven't thin-sliced the levels more, but that might confuse people.
When I moved to Germany, I had a university degree in German and thought I was upper B2 - C1 because of it. HA! I was a mid-B1 at best and that after 6 years of school/uni German and 9 months in country as an exchange student. Mid B1! Shock horror!
I'm C-level now, but it took me about 6-7 years in country and reading/listening my face off to get here. Honestly, nobody needs C-level unless its for some kind of technical work or you live in country and like to talk politics or econ.
Berengaria wrote: "From your sample paragraph in English: middle B1 grammar. The vocab is beginning- middle B2. "I stand chastised and suitably humbled. Still pleased with the progress that I've made, even in French (my strongest non-native language) but I'm a little daunted at how far I still have to go!
Berengaria wrote: "I'm C-level now, but it took me about 6-7 years in country and reading/listening my face off to get here. Honestly, nobody needs C-level unless its for some kind of technical work or you live in country and like to talk politics or econ. "When Covid has rumbled down to a livable level and travel can comfortably resume, I'd love to have a chance to travel to Germany, to meet you, to share a beer (oder zwei) and to talk books, languages and world events (in multiple languages, of course).
Paul wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "From your sample paragraph in English: middle B1 grammar. The vocab is beginning- middle B2. "I stand chastised and suitably humbled. Still pleased with the progress that I've ..."
Pat yourself on the back and treat yourself to liberal lashings of cheesecake every time you feel you've seen tangible improvement in your language abilities anywhere! (or whatever your go-to "sin" food is.) It really is a cause for celebration and you have every right to feel terribly proud of yourself for being able to write a book review in French, for example!
Learning a language never ends. You can feel that you "know enough" for your goal(s), but there is always more to learn/improve, as you well know. There's no end game. It's a marathon.
Some people have a goal of being able to read a language, but not speak it. Or not speak it beyond a tourist- basic convo level. Some have a goal of being able to speak, but reading or writing doesn't interest them much. It all depends what you want to do with each of your languages. There's no "correct" level to reach. It's all very individual, which is why patting yourself on the back for achievement is important!
Berengaria wrote: "Paul wrote: I opened the original English book in the middle of nowhere and selected a sample paragraph that seemed very representative of the ..."
From your sample paragraph in English: middle B..."
Interesting discussion, Paul and Berengaria!
Let me point out one often overlooked aspect of A/B/C levels: they are competence-based. There is actually no such thing as A2 grammar or C1 vocabulary - the fact that textbooks claim otherwise is a different thing.
As described in the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (which is where we got the A/B/C levels from), your level e. g. in reading depends on what you can do with a text and how comfortable you are doing so.
Here are descriptors for "Reading as a leisure activity":
C2
Can read virtually all forms of the written language including classical or colloquial literary and non-literary writings in different genres, appreciating subtle distinctions of style and implicit as well as explicit meaning.
C1
Can read and appreciate a variety of literary texts, provided that he/she can reread certain sections and that he/she can access reference tools if he/she wishes. Can read contemporary literary texts and non-fiction written in the standard form of the language with little difficulty and with
appreciation of implicit meanings and ideas.
B2
Can read for pleasure with a large degree of independence, adapting style and speed of reading to different texts (e.g. magazines, more straightforward novels, history books, biographies, travelogues, guides, lyrics, poems), using appropriate reference sources selectively. Can read novels that have a strong, narrative plot and that are written in straightforward, unelaborated language, provided
that he/she can take his/her time and use a dictionary.
(https://rm.coe.int/cefr-companion-vol...)
All in all, I think we may discuss if LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD has "a strong, narrative plot that is written in straightforward, unelaborated language" or if it goes beyond that but Paul's experience reading it sounds to me more like C1 for sure :-)
Lenka wrote: Can read and appreciate a variety of literary texts, provided that he/she can reread certain sections and that he/she can access reference tools if he/she wishes. Can read contemporary literary texts and non-fiction written in the standard form of the language with little difficulty"After I finished my responses to Berengaria, I went to my bookshelf and looked at the opening paragraphs of a couple of more contemporary French language thrillers that were NOT translations, LA 7E FEMME by Frédérique Molay and GLACÉ by Bernard Minier. The former seems a bit more difficult than AC and the latter looks like it would be a lot more difficult and quite challenging to read. That is to say, NOT with LITTLE difficulty.
So combining Berengaria's comments on objective content such as tenses and vocabulary with Lenka's more subjective comments about competence, it would seem that my reading skill levels challenging LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD put it at mid B2 to dipping a toe or perhaps a whole foot occasionally into C1.
Lenka wrote: "Let me point out one often overlooked aspect of A/B/C levels: they are competence-based. There is actually no such thing as A2 grammar or C1 vocabulary - the fact that textbooks claim otherwise is a different thing.."
You are absolutely right that the CEFR itself only gives descriptions of competencies and then leaves it up to the individual to match that to his/her experience. (Surprising how many people can't do that, as most self over or underestimate their language ability drastically)
But other official institutes which use the scale, like those which create official learning materials or official language exams, often DO have specific level grammar and vocabulary that you are required to know to pass that level (or claim you are on it) for things like jobs and acceptance to university programs.
An example: if you were to take the...let's say the official Modern Greek A2 exam then you would be expected to know a very specific set of vocabulary and grammar. Without it, you would fail, no matter if you could fulfill the CEFR description otherwise.
That's a far more practical orientation for learners than the CEFR provides, which is only a framework for teaching/learning and is not bound to anything.
So level specific grammar etc DOES very much exist, just not officially set by the CEFR, but rather by individual countries and their governing language bodies. (Which are all different. Norwegian doesn't expect you to know boat vocab like Greek does, for example)
This is why, as you say, textbooks "claim" what they do. This is for official exams and nothing to do with competencies, as I'm sure you know, Lenka, but others might not.
(I have to deal with this end of the CEFR all the time for work -- official exams.)
I think I'll read Grisham's "The Firm" for my next goal novel in Dutch. "De Avocaat van de Duivel". It's fairly long, 400+ pages, so the longest I've ever tried in the language but I'm not expecting too much of a linguistic challenge from Grisham. I bought the novel like...20 some years ago the last time I was in Amsterdam and it's been haunting my shelves ever since. Time it got read!
Berengaria wrote: "Lenka wrote: "Let me point out one often overlooked aspect of A/B/C levels: they are competence-based. There is actually no such thing as A2 grammar or C1 vocabulary - the fact that textbooks clai..."
I agree with this. Since the CEFR tried to establish comparable proficiency levels across languages and since these differ from each other, the levels were defined in terms of relative abilities, but once those have been established, then for each language there will be more concrete guidances or requirements for each level.
I am probably going to be taking the B2 exam in Italian at the end of May. As an example - we have added the Periodi Ipotetici #2 & 3 to the #1 that I studied in B1.
Berengaria wrote: "I think I'll read Grisham's "The Firm" for my next goal novel in Dutch. "De Avocaat van de Duivel". It's fairly long, 400+ pages, so the longest I've ever tried in the language but I'm not expect..."
Good luck.
I will probably finish my February French book by tomorrow.
Not difficult but it did not engage me, although I very much liked another book by the same writer - Le Testament Français.
Makine is Russian but as a francophile, writes in French. I do like his descriptions.
I still have not decided what will I read in Italian and French during March.
Hi everyone,I miss reading in a foreign language. I am hoping to read my next book in Bahasa Indonesia but it is my weaker language so I am brushing up on my vocabulary before I am get started. I am doing daily vocab drills. I might have to find a Swedish book to tide me over as I miss the challenge.
Rod
Sportyrod wrote: "Hi everyone,I miss reading in a foreign language. I am hoping to read my next book in Bahasa Indonesia but it is my weaker language so I am brushing up on my vocabulary before I am get started. I..."
I feel the same way, but I can't seem to motivate myself to read Grisham! :-)
Do you still have your Wattpad account? There are stories in Swedish on there. If you search for "Ambassadors Sweden" you'll find "Wattpad Swedish Book of the Year" and a number of different books/stories.
How is everybody doing?I'm about 40% through my Grisham in Dutch. Averaging about 20 pages a sitting. It's not too hard to read, just lots of action and plot details.
What about you? Where are you in your reading and how's it coming?
Hello everyone.I just finished my Italian book for this month. Non esiste saggezza. My first book by this author and a real find. I plan to read more by him.
In a couple of days I will begin my French book for March. I have chosen L’anomalie.
but I am behind in my German books challenge... Things have been a bit chaotic lately...
Kalliope wrote: "Hello everyone.I just finished my Italian book for this month. Non esiste saggezza. My first book by this author and a real find. I plan to read more by him."
Congrats! Many people are busy now. Seems to be the season!
I am still brushing up on my Bahasa Indonesia skills before I read a book in that language. But being impatient, I have just started my second book in Swedish. This one is a children’s book called the Lionheart Brothers by Astrid Lindgren. It’s about 250 pages long. It’s not a language learner one with the vocab included. This is purely in Swedish. So it is a big step up for me. I just tried out the first chapter before mentioning this to see if I could actually do it and I have surprised myself. There were some words lost on me but I think I followed most of it. And it is so sad. So so sad.
Sportyrod wrote: "I am still brushing up on my Bahasa Indonesia skills before I read a book in that language. "I'm impressed. I don't mind admitting it. Does this language use standard Western script and diacritical marks or do you have to learn a new script like you do if you challenge Arabic, Russian or an Eastern language like Chinese or Korean?
Thanks. Both use Western script. Swedish has an extra ä, å, ö.
Paul wrote: "Sportyrod wrote: "I am still brushing up on my Bahasa Indonesia skills before I read a book in that language. "I'm impressed. I don't mind admitting it. Does this language use standard Western sc..."
Sportyrod left this bit out...Bahasa Indonesian uses Latin script with no diacritial marks at all. The most interesting thing about it is that it is an artifical language, not a natural one.
When Indonesia gained its independence, the question of language became very important. All the little islands have their own language...which one would be the lingua franca?
The answer was to create an easy to learn, easy to use language for daily use.
Like Esperanto, which is based on European grammar and vocab, Indonesia is based on Southeast Asian grammar and vocab. It contains many of the ideas present in Japanese, Korean and Chinese, but in a simplified way, which makes it an excellent introduction to those languages for Westerners.
Plurals, for example, which many S.E. Asian languages lack, are expressed by doubling the word you want to put in plural.
If memory serves "motor" is the word for car. Thus "motor motor" would mean "cars".
If I was going to learn a non-Euro language, Indonesian would be it!
Sportyrod wrote: " But being impatient, I have just started my second book in Swedish. This one is a children’s book called ..."Sportyrod, jag är stolt över dig! Stor framgang! Det är fantastiskt att du läser igen på svenska. Du vet, du har inspirirat mig... jag skulle vilja också läsa igen på svenska och jag planerar att beställa en novellbok för elever snart. Det är en tysk bok, inte från Sverige, och kanske för lätt. Det vet man aldrig! Här är den:
Läsgodis: Schwedische Erzählungen im Originaltext
(Läsgodis: Swedish Stories in the Original with Notes)
Thanks Berengaria for the extra explanation. I actually didn’t know about the origin of the language. I can vouch for it being an easy language though. In high school we could choose French, Japanese or Indonesian. My selection was sold to me on “easy”. Indonesian uses a mix of words from other languages including Dutch, Arabic, Sanskrit and English. Many Arabic words have the ‘kh’ or ‘f’ sounds in them. Most English words ending in ‘ion’ eg information becomes informasi so that opens up a huge chunk of extra vocab right there.
The sentence structure is the main challenge. Lots of rules for that.
Pluralising can be done by repeating the word eg anak (child), anak-anak (children) but this is only one of several ways to pluralise and depends on context. When counting you can’t say two anak anak you would have to use prefixes se- for one, dua- for two, therefore dua-anak for two children. And there are different prefixes depending on whether the object is living. It’s a good language if you like rules with few exceptions. Slang is very hard to follow though. So many abbreviations.
Berengaria, I am impressed with your Swedish written skills. Much better than mine. Lycka til med bokan som du väljade.
Sportyrod wrote: "Thanks Berengaria for the extra explanation. I actually didn’t know about the origin of the language. I can vouch for it being an easy language though. In high school we could choose French, Japane..."I didn't get too far into Indonesian, but I do remember reading a little about the different prefixes. Thank you for reminding me about them! It is similar in Japanese. You count differently depending on what "category" the item you are counting belongs to.
I have no problems imagining that the slang is difficult to follow. I find that my main stubling block in French, too. The standard language -- no problem. But the minute they start with Parisian jive...no clue.
Do you have any experience with the Lättläst books? Those are the simplified ones that were originally meant for the mentally handicapped and country people who couldn't read so well.
Sportyrod wrote: "Indonesian uses a mix of words from other languages including Dutch, Arabic, Sanskrit and English."Reflecting its colonial and trading historical background, I expect!
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Stylistique comparée du français et de l'allemand
I recommend these two books. I have only read the first one, but many years ago.
Have the second one too but have not read it yet.