⋆.ೃ࿔࿐ྂfaith & fantasy⋆.ೃ࿔࿐ྂ discussion
✯General Bookish Stuff✯
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⭒Content Warnings⭒
@Abigail, thank you for taking the time to address my question. The ‘story’ I was alluding to was when Lot’s daughters got him drunk and slept with him. I was also thinking of the story in Judges 19:22-30, though to be fair the Bible makes it clear that what took place was evil. But still how do we determine whether or not a book is presenting sin in a positive way instead of just merely writing a story that has sinful characters? A novel should depict reality and the world, unfortunately, includes sinful behavior. I don’t think a novel should necessarily be didactic, as that’s poor writing. No offense, but that’s why most contemporary Christian novels are just terrible; those novels break the fourth wall when they try to preach at you. This is true of all ideological novels, like the communists ones that were published in Soviet Russia and Maoist China.
Tolkien, Flannery O’Connor, and Donna Tartt are perfect examples of authors who write from a Christian worldview
Tolkien, Flannery O’Connor, and Donna Tartt are perfect examples of authors who write from a Christian worldview
without preaching to their audience. O’Connor’s A Good Man is Hard to Find is a perfect example of good Christian writing that doesn’t preach at its audience, but also depicts redemption (according to the author).
I do think we should avoid novels that are either near occasions of sin (what that is can vary from person to person) or novels that are explicitly written to cause their readers to sin (e.g., erotic literature which has as its purpose to cause readers to think lustful thoughts/gratify their lustful desires).
I do think we should avoid novels that are either near occasions of sin (what that is can vary from person to person) or novels that are explicitly written to cause their readers to sin (e.g., erotic literature which has as its purpose to cause readers to think lustful thoughts/gratify their lustful desires).
I have to side with Eden here, though it does also depend how grounded one is in his/her faith. As a general rule, we should know the Bible more than any other book/genre. If I’m spending more time say trying to read the latest novels to the detriment of my prayer life/time to study the Bible, then there’s a problem. :)
@Shaon, sure! You’re always welcome to share your thoughts :)
@Shaon, sure! You’re always welcome to share your thoughts :)
I'm not familiar with the book Babel. I tend to avoid most contemporary novels (with a few exceptions) and read classics instead 😅 C.S. Lewis has an excellent essay called "On the Reading of Old Books" that I highly recommend:
https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/chr...
That being said, what you're saying still poses the question: how do we make a distinction between immoral characters glorifying sin and the novel as a whole promoting sin? A novel should point us to the truth without being didactic or preachy, like I said below (which is what I meant by novels should depict reality). The unfortunate truth is people do espouse false beliefs, like you mentioned, and promote them in an articulate manner. If a novel is going to have characters like the ones you mentioned, the novelist shouldn't strawman them or write them like a cartoon villain. It should depict them as they are. Satan is the father of lies and lies can be convincing.
I do think it's a non sequitur to say that reading about sin leads ALL people to commit the sins that are read about or to question God. This is where self-knowledge comes in and we have to make a personal judgment call and know what triggers we personally have, as well as know how to avoid them.
I don't usually use emotions to discern whether or not I should read or not read something. For example, if I'm reading about the infamous rape of Nanking and the "experiments" the Japanese conducted on pregnant women, I should be depressed after reading about that. Or, if I read about the cruel treatment of African American slaves, I should be disturbed and outraged by what I'm reading. In fact, there would be something wrong if I wasn't.
But let's go back to my initial question: how do we discern the difference between a novel promoting sin and a character within the novel doing so?
https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/chr...
That being said, what you're saying still poses the question: how do we make a distinction between immoral characters glorifying sin and the novel as a whole promoting sin? A novel should point us to the truth without being didactic or preachy, like I said below (which is what I meant by novels should depict reality). The unfortunate truth is people do espouse false beliefs, like you mentioned, and promote them in an articulate manner. If a novel is going to have characters like the ones you mentioned, the novelist shouldn't strawman them or write them like a cartoon villain. It should depict them as they are. Satan is the father of lies and lies can be convincing.
I do think it's a non sequitur to say that reading about sin leads ALL people to commit the sins that are read about or to question God. This is where self-knowledge comes in and we have to make a personal judgment call and know what triggers we personally have, as well as know how to avoid them.
I don't usually use emotions to discern whether or not I should read or not read something. For example, if I'm reading about the infamous rape of Nanking and the "experiments" the Japanese conducted on pregnant women, I should be depressed after reading about that. Or, if I read about the cruel treatment of African American slaves, I should be disturbed and outraged by what I'm reading. In fact, there would be something wrong if I wasn't.
But let's go back to my initial question: how do we discern the difference between a novel promoting sin and a character within the novel doing so?
Sorry, I just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen about the nature of sin in a novel. Growing up, my parents always had a rule of what I was allowed to read\watch, which was, I could watch it, even if there were some pretty horrible things, as long as there was a consequence (in other words, there is an ultimate judgment guided by a higher power).A few examples I can think of right now are The Picture of Dorian Gray, All the works of Flannery O'Connor, and The Skrewtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. all of these books have deeply twisted characters (in the case of Skrewtape, they are literal demons), but it is not promoting the sin and immorality, it is to show how horrible life is, if it is led by sin and pride.
Mod
I say that to say that the Bible is awesome in that it shows us the naked truth of sinful humanity *and* God's plan to save humanity. The story of Lot's daughters getting him drunk and then having sex with him to become pregnant is repulsive, but, as Stephen said, the Bible does not directly in that passage speak to the morality of those acts. (However, we do see the consequences of those acts later in Scripture as those two children became the fathers of the nations of Moab and Ammon (sp?), two future enemies of Israel. We also see incest outlawed (in Leviticus, I believe). Putting 2 and 2 together, we come to the conclusion that incest is wrong in God's eyes, and so therefore, should be in ours as well.) God's plan of redemption is shown throughout Scripture, even when it is not stated expicitly. It shows us our depravity, sometimes graphically, but then it shows us God's mercy and His plan of rescue. I think it is important for our fiction to be reflective of that even when not stated in expicitly Christian terms. In fact, I love it when an author can weave a tale with both of these elements without using Christian terms at all.
We need to keep the author's purpose and themes in mind as we read. If an author has two unmarried characters having sex, and there does not seem to be any kind of moral statement (implied or direct) about it, then that author is presenting that behavior as normal and wants us to see it that way too. If an author does not fix or otherwise redeem an unbiblical situation by the end of their book, then that author has normalized it or presented us with one of their themes, such as divorce being an acceptable choice when two people do not feel in love anymore.
I think reading non-Christian works is perfectly ok, as long as we are viewing it through a Christian worldview and evaluating it as such. (Depending on your age and your parents' permission, if you are not an adult.) However, I also think we need to be careful of our intake of unbiblical/anti-biblical materials because over time we get used to the material and it can easily begin to overtake our worldview to one that is also unbibilical. All of us become desensitized whether we intend to be or not. That is why television, movies, and books are much more graphic in everyway I can think of than they were when I was a teenager. And if they are not more graphic, they are promoted at younger and younger ages. We as a society became more accustomed to what we saw and heard, and now we want more.
If I believed in sheltering myself (or my children), I would never read the Bible and I certainly wouldn't let them read it.😅 (It is pretty graphic at times.🫣) I do not believe in sheltering myself or my children under all circumstances and at all times. There are times for being exposed to what the world has to offer (being "wise as serpents") and evaluating those offerings through a biblical lens and either discarding or accepting them based on what God teaches us in His Word (being "innocent as doves"). However, I think we need to consider our motives. Why am I exposing myself to it? Is it for entertainment? If yes, then I think we need to tread very carefully. One can learn about the world's offerings through non-fiction means where it can be evaluated more objectively, no emotions attached. Take, for instance, Kaz in Six of Crows. We feel sorry for him and the tragic background and experiences he has had. Our hearts bleed for him, or at least ache for him--I know mine did. Now I've gotten my emotions involved, and it makes it difficult to evaluate his actions from a biblical worldview because I just care for him so much, and I want to excuse him because of it. Imo, a situation such as this isn't the best territory from which to evaluate for a biblical worldview.
Well, I think I've said enough!🫢 Sorry if this is disjointed. I have been typing it out over a few hours while doing other things. Let me know if something isn't clear or you just want to probe more.
Sorry Z.C. 😅 I can be a bit argumentative sometimes lol. But yeah, I think you shouldn't feel forced to read a book you don't want to :) Go with your conscience. It's praiseworthy that you want your reading to not displease our Lord. As Scripture says: "whatever you do, whether you eat, drink, or sleep, do all for the glory of the Lord." and "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is edifying, dwell on these things."
@Sharon, I'm offering a comment on your third paragraph, specifically when you said " if an author does not fix or otherwise redeem an unbiblical situation by the end of their book, then that author has normalized it or presented us with one of their themes, such as divorce being an acceptable choice when two people do not feel in love anymore."
Even there I take some issues with that, for in life people do divorce, and stay divorced, when they claim they're no longer in love. Likewise, in life, there's plenty of situations that go "unredeemed." (at least this side of heaven or by human reckoning). Forcing your characters, or the world your characters abide in, to neatly fit in with Biblical mores does violence to one of Christianity's central doctrines: free will. Not to mention doing so doesn't accurately represent reality. Often, people who live in habitual sin seem to prosper while those living holy lives seem to suffer terribly. Psalm 73 provides a useful meditation on this quandary (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...)
Frankly many people go through life after committing the worst sins and appear to have got away with it. And these moments can leave us wondering "where are you God? Why is it that this man, who was selfish, brutish, abusive to his wife/children, and never cared about anyone but himself, why is it that he lives a life of ease, with no financial problems, no difficulties. Whereas, many holy people suffer destitution and persecution. Where are you God? Why do you allow this apparent injustice to continue?"
Novels present a facet of life and sometimes that depiction is not holy. Sometimes it shows a world that does not conform to the will of God, like many real life situations. We know ultimate justice is meted out at the final judgment/the immediate judgment of each person after they die, but often times we don't see this in this life. Should not a novel also be allowed to show this mystery without condoning it? If the Most High, for whatever reason, permits these so called inequalities, should not a novelist be allowed to as well?
Even there I take some issues with that, for in life people do divorce, and stay divorced, when they claim they're no longer in love. Likewise, in life, there's plenty of situations that go "unredeemed." (at least this side of heaven or by human reckoning). Forcing your characters, or the world your characters abide in, to neatly fit in with Biblical mores does violence to one of Christianity's central doctrines: free will. Not to mention doing so doesn't accurately represent reality. Often, people who live in habitual sin seem to prosper while those living holy lives seem to suffer terribly. Psalm 73 provides a useful meditation on this quandary (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...)
Frankly many people go through life after committing the worst sins and appear to have got away with it. And these moments can leave us wondering "where are you God? Why is it that this man, who was selfish, brutish, abusive to his wife/children, and never cared about anyone but himself, why is it that he lives a life of ease, with no financial problems, no difficulties. Whereas, many holy people suffer destitution and persecution. Where are you God? Why do you allow this apparent injustice to continue?"
Novels present a facet of life and sometimes that depiction is not holy. Sometimes it shows a world that does not conform to the will of God, like many real life situations. We know ultimate justice is meted out at the final judgment/the immediate judgment of each person after they die, but often times we don't see this in this life. Should not a novel also be allowed to show this mystery without condoning it? If the Most High, for whatever reason, permits these so called inequalities, should not a novelist be allowed to as well?
Mod
I also think it’s important to be exposed to..."
I personally really, really hate books with swearing in them because I've always struggled with that, and I've found that the more I'm exposed to swearing (e.g. from media I consume, books I read, and people I'm around), the more I also swear, especially in times of anger or frustration. So even though I can't always avoid it, I do try my best not to pick up books that have excessive swearing (usually reviewers will mention if they do).
Mod
Pardon me if this isn’t appropriate, but I recently read a story that depicted incest, but didn’t comment on whether or not that was moral or i..."
I think it's just important to read with discernment, so some readers may be uncomfortable with any sexual content (even if it's addressed in a biblical manner), and some people may be comfortable reading books with unbiblical sexual content as long as it's addressed biblically. Some people might also be comfortable reading general market books and skipping over scenes they're uncomfortable with.
For example, The Children of Húrin by J.R.R. Tolkien, a devout Catholic, contains incest (but nothing sexually graphic), and the act was portrayed as a grave mistake that was orchestrated by the villain of the story. In such a case, I don't think it'd be wrong that incest is included in the book.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wL4L...
^This essay is worth reading :) It touches on what we're talking about.
^This essay is worth reading :) It touches on what we're talking about.
If I seem a bit zealous, it's cause this has been a question that's been on my mind for quite awhile now 😅 It all started when I picked up my first examination of conscience and one of the points said "have I read any immoral books?" So since then I've been wondering what, exactly, makes a book immoral.
Mod
I wholeheartedly agree with your parents' guidelines on what you were allowed to read/watch. How the sinful behavior is handled is a huge factor in what I allow my kids to consume. (It also guides what I read and watch.)
Mod
I am a firm believer that novels can and should reflect real life with some caveats.
Take, for instance, the issue of divorce that I used above. Divorce is rampant throughout our society, and it is naive to think that I cannot allow myself to read about characters who divorce. When I said, "if an author does not fix or otherwise redeem an unbiblical situation by the end of their book, then that author has normalized it or presented us with one of their themes, such as divorce being an acceptable choice when two people do not feel in love anymore," I do not mean that the author has to show the couple reunited in blissful love. What I mean is that in order to reflect God's perspective on divorce, whether that author is a Christian or not, I expect the author to handle divorce in a way that shows the negative consequences of it. Maybe the author has the character involved come to realize that they jumped into marriage impulsively, or the character learns what he or she could have done differently to avoid divorce, or the author shows the negative consequences of the divorce on the couple's children, or one of the characters is redeemed in their thoughts on the divorce and tries to put a stop to it even if unsuccessful. All of these show divorce in a negative light, so reflect God's perspective on it. A story that ends with divorce being the solution to the problem is not reflective of God's Word, so while I would not find that story offensive or objectionable, necessarily, it would not be a story I would be happy with.
I think maybe that is where the distinction is when you ask about the difference between a character sinning and a book promoting sin. How is the sin dealt with by the end of the story? The Count of Monte Cristo was a hard read for me because so much of the book is about every detail of Dantes' revenge. I longed for redemption, but I was not sure I was going to get it. Was Dumas going to end the book with Dantes' revenge being the solution, or was Dumas going to redeem Dantes' thoughts on the path he had taken? (view spoiler), but his revenge had grave consequences that were not, in most cases, reversed. I was happy with that ending because it reflected God's perspective on revenge even though not everything was neatly tied up with a bow at the end.
Does that make sense?
Mod
My personal criteria for a good novel is very simple. An..."
I agree with this, and your next 2 comments addressing those questions. Well said on both points. The second question you addressed is what I meant by our purpose in reading needing to be taken into account. We can learn much about the world --the good and the bad--through non-fiction means that does not entertain us, but merely informs our understanding of the facts.
Sharon wrote: "Helena wrote: "Any content warnings for The Cruel Prince?"See messages 125 and 126. 😊"
Thank you!
Thank you for responding Sharon. I think I agree with you, but I still have a few objections.
Let me bring up a book that’s not a little controversial in Christian circles : Harry Potter. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that magic is sinful. For example Galatians 5:19-20 which says
“Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
If a book like Harry Potter presents magic in a positive light, why should Christian’s be fine with reading it? :) It’s clear that Harry Potter depicts a world that’s at odds with the world God set up/his laws
Let me bring up a book that’s not a little controversial in Christian circles : Harry Potter. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that magic is sinful. For example Galatians 5:19-20 which says
“Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
If a book like Harry Potter presents magic in a positive light, why should Christian’s be fine with reading it? :) It’s clear that Harry Potter depicts a world that’s at odds with the world God set up/his laws
(Btw, I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I’m open to being convinced, but as I write this I’m fine with people reading Harry Potter, but it *does* present magic in a way that’s at odds with the doctrines of the Bible, does it not? I haven’t read the entire series, so those of you who have can better address this question than I can)
Growing up, I was not allowed to read Harry Potter or Percy Jackson for those reasons. Although I have also been wondering about other Christian's opinions on the books :)
@Abigail, yeah, I understand that viewpoint. If you study the history of the Christian intellectual tradition, you’ll frequently see Christian educators will make use of pagan works of literature, like the Iliad and the Odyssey. If I recall, both Martin Luther and John Calvin had no qualms using these works of imaginative literature, even though they depict a world in which gods exist. C.S. Lewis is also fond of these great epics, too. Should Christians reject these works of literature -foundational works of literature I might add- simply because they don’t repudiate the positive/neutral depiction of idolatry?
@/Elijah I’m not talking about rape and murder. I’m talking about those who, even if they don’t believe in Jesus, are still good people. There is something seriously, mentally wrong with people who rape and murder. That cannot be said about people who are, using your example, gay or trans- they just have different beliefs.Books are used to share something important, they’re not just to entertain. That means that books can be a very powerful force for understanding where someone is coming from. Let’s use the example of “The Hate U Give”, a book on racism and police brutality. Having read that book, I was put into the shoes of a girl whom I can never be, since I’m white. Seeing the world through her perspective showed me a lot of things that I never learned just by befriending/dating people of other races. It vastly increased my understanding of black people, which in turn increased my compassion and respect for them.
You cannot tell me that books aren’t a powerful force internally, because if that were true then none of us would be so fond of them. :)
On the Harry Potter question:Harry Potter is set in a fictional version of the world where God is not directly said to exist.
Maybe even more importantly. I used to be Wiccan before I became Christian. I also love and have read Harry Potter a bajillion times. Having experience in both, I can say the only similarity the two have is in the name. Actual witchcraft is 1000000% different than the “witchcraft and wizardry” in Harry Potter.
(It also feels unfair that Harry Potter is condemned for referencing magic when we love other books that do, too.)
@Eden, if you don’t explaining, in what ways is the magic in Harry Potter different from magic in Wicca? I’m only nominally familiar with that religion except for a few basic facts I’ve picked up here and there :)
Besides the two points I mentioned below (erotic literature and near occasions of sin), I don’t think we should avoid books that disagree with a Christian worldview. That’s what catechizes( religious instruction) is for. Now, we can debate the ‘why’ for reading such books, as well as a what age children should (if at all) be exposed to a non-Christian worldview through fiction, but I don’t think we can hold the belief that all works of fiction must be shaped by a Christian ethos without becoming iconoclastic or engaging in wide scaled censorship. Cause as Eden pointed out, we tolerate magic in LOTR, for example.
Besides the two points I mentioned below (erotic literature and near occasions of sin), I don’t think we should avoid books that disagree with a Christian worldview. That’s what catechizes( religious instruction) is for. Now, we can debate the ‘why’ for reading such books, as well as a what age children should (if at all) be exposed to a non-Christian worldview through fiction, but I don’t think we can hold the belief that all works of fiction must be shaped by a Christian ethos without becoming iconoclastic or engaging in wide scaled censorship. Cause as Eden pointed out, we tolerate magic in LOTR, for example.
Mod
See messages 125 and 126. 😊"
Thank you!"
The Cruel Prince is technically clean (no s*x scenes at all), but there are murders, backstabbing, people hooking up, and stupid parties ("debauches") in which the fae get drunk. The fae also can't lie, but they love tricking people. It's all not exactly untrue from faerie folklore, but it's still a society that's morally lacking.
Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "Helena wrote: "Sharon wrote: "Helena wrote: "Any content warnings for The Cruel Prince?"See messages 125 and 126. 😊"
Thank you!"
The Cruel Prince is technically clean (no s*x sc..."
Ah, ok. Thank you!
Mod
See messages 125 and 126. 😊"
Thank you!"
The Cruel Prin..."
No problemo!
Mod
Let me bring up a book that’s not a little controversial in Christian circles : Harry Potter. The Bib..."
Ah, the Harry Potter quagmire!! Good example to explore, Stephen.
As a parent, I had to dive in and figure out what I was going to do about my children's desire to read HP. Over the years, they had wanted to read it, but they were young, and whether or not I was eventually going to allow it, they were too young at the time, so I was able to put them off. Then they were 11 and 13, and I had to make a call.
Instead of relying on other people's opinions, I decided to read them myself to form my own opinion. (One can find drastically differing thoughts on these books with faithful, Bible-believing folks on each side.) Now, what I should have done, was read the entire series, THEN make the call. Instead, I read the first book, decided it was ok, and let them read it as long as they were willing to discuss it with me as they went through the story. We did this with each book: I read it, my 13-year-old read it, then my 11-year-old read it. As my kids read them, we would have daily discussions regarding true witchcraft, fantasy witchcraft, and poor behavior on Harry's part, usually. I found it to be instructive and necessary for helping them navigate this world where there were some negative influences, but also some wonderful themes and lessons.
The reasons I let my kids read them are multi-faceted, and the third one speaks to the issue at hand. For one, HP is iconic. My kids' friends and cousins had read them and they felt left out of something huge. The second reason for allowing them was that I felt it was time to expose them to and *explore with them* facets of our world that we may not necessary agree with, such as glorying in poor behavior and, of course, witchcraft.
The third reason for allowing it was that I found the grand majority of the magic in these books to be simply fantasy. There was no evil source of the magic--the magical folks were simply born with it and it could be used either for good or evil. I do not believe that this is the kind of "witchraft" the Bible speaks of. I think the Bible speaks about a witchcraft whose source is Satan and is sought out by a person, rather than a person being (fantasically speaking, of course) born with it.
Of course we need to be careful that this fantastic "witchcraft" does not lead to believing that all witchcraft is ok. That's why I discussed the books with my kids as they read. When they were very young, we did not allow them to watch shows that portrayed good characters with "witchcraft" because they were too young for making distinctions. But at 11 and 13, it was time to parse it out.
For more on my thoughts on Harry Potter, which, by the way, is listed on my favorites shelf, see my review here.
Interesting take, Sharon. So, this still leaves me with some questions 😅 A few posts ago you said you didn’t want to reads books that depict a world at odds with Biblical norms, which is how I interpreted your statement when you said:
“We need to keep the author's purpose and themes in mind as we read. If an author has two unmarried characters having sex, and there does not seem to be any kind of moral statement (implied or direct) about it, then that author is presenting that behavior as normal and wants us to see it that way too. If an author does not fix or otherwise redeem an unbiblical situation by the end of their book, then that author has normalized it or presented us with one of their themes, such as divorce being an acceptable choice when two people do not feel in love anymore.”
Couldn’t that be said of Harry Pitter then? It’s a world that depicts magic as acceptable. Even if it presents it in a positive way, we know that, as Scripture says, “Satan masquerades as an Angel of light.” Couldn’t it be said that the portrayal normalizes magic and wants us to see it that way, too, like in your divorce example?
Even if the books are iconic, that shouldn’t matter to Christians, as we seek truth, not popularity. 50 Shades of Grey is iconic to many, but because of its pornographic elements and the way it normalizes abuse, we shouldn’t read it.
“We need to keep the author's purpose and themes in mind as we read. If an author has two unmarried characters having sex, and there does not seem to be any kind of moral statement (implied or direct) about it, then that author is presenting that behavior as normal and wants us to see it that way too. If an author does not fix or otherwise redeem an unbiblical situation by the end of their book, then that author has normalized it or presented us with one of their themes, such as divorce being an acceptable choice when two people do not feel in love anymore.”
Couldn’t that be said of Harry Pitter then? It’s a world that depicts magic as acceptable. Even if it presents it in a positive way, we know that, as Scripture says, “Satan masquerades as an Angel of light.” Couldn’t it be said that the portrayal normalizes magic and wants us to see it that way, too, like in your divorce example?
Even if the books are iconic, that shouldn’t matter to Christians, as we seek truth, not popularity. 50 Shades of Grey is iconic to many, but because of its pornographic elements and the way it normalizes abuse, we shouldn’t read it.
Sorry, I’m really not trying to argue, though I am playing devil’s advocate 😅 my beliefs on what a book moral or immoral is not well defined and I’m trying to figure it out.
Just to reiterate, I have no problem with people reading Harry Potter, but I’m fine with Christians reading books that are at odds with a Christian worldview, provided they have literary value, aren’t written to tempt the reader to sin, and have some redeemable values.
Just to reiterate, I have no problem with people reading Harry Potter, but I’m fine with Christians reading books that are at odds with a Christian worldview, provided they have literary value, aren’t written to tempt the reader to sin, and have some redeemable values.
And Potter* I need to proofread my responses. Apple has the worst autocorrect 😩
https://circeinstitute.org/blog/blog-...
^ this article covers why I’m fine with Christians reading Harry Potter :)
^ this article covers why I’m fine with Christians reading Harry Potter :)
Mod
@Sharon, I’m judging the book based off the criteria you mentioned a few posts ago :)
Portrayals of magic are usually based on fantasy :) My point was the novels depict the use of magic in a morally permissible way. When the Bible condemns magic, it doesn’t just condemn it because it’s merely extrinsically connected to Satan. In many cases it’s not, either when it’s part of a pagan religion or when it’s presented as a type of science. It’s wrong because all magic is intrinsically disordered and sinful, regardless if one is born with the potential to use it or not. Magic is the taming of occult powers in order to possess the ability to manipulate matter, people, and physical objects in any way one pleases. It’s forbidden, in contrast with working miracles, because the power is sought outside of God. People are born with the potential to sin, but that doesn’t mean we should sin. Even if Harry has the inborn power to wield magic, it doesn’t mean he should, if we’re judging this story by Biblical principles.
Like you said about divorce or sex outside of marriage, if a novel is going to have these things in it, it should show their true nature and show the corrosive effects of sin, not present them as if they actually fulfill us/contribute to a flourishing life. Same with magic, right? Since all forms of magic are objectively sinful. By the end of Harry Potter is the true nature of magic revealed?
(Btw, the way you let your children read Harry Potter is commendable. :) That’s EXACTLY how Christian parents should handle it. Let them read it, but then discuss it with them. This teaches them how to exercise their reason and learn how to judge between good and illicit/evil actions.)
Portrayals of magic are usually based on fantasy :) My point was the novels depict the use of magic in a morally permissible way. When the Bible condemns magic, it doesn’t just condemn it because it’s merely extrinsically connected to Satan. In many cases it’s not, either when it’s part of a pagan religion or when it’s presented as a type of science. It’s wrong because all magic is intrinsically disordered and sinful, regardless if one is born with the potential to use it or not. Magic is the taming of occult powers in order to possess the ability to manipulate matter, people, and physical objects in any way one pleases. It’s forbidden, in contrast with working miracles, because the power is sought outside of God. People are born with the potential to sin, but that doesn’t mean we should sin. Even if Harry has the inborn power to wield magic, it doesn’t mean he should, if we’re judging this story by Biblical principles.
Like you said about divorce or sex outside of marriage, if a novel is going to have these things in it, it should show their true nature and show the corrosive effects of sin, not present them as if they actually fulfill us/contribute to a flourishing life. Same with magic, right? Since all forms of magic are objectively sinful. By the end of Harry Potter is the true nature of magic revealed?
(Btw, the way you let your children read Harry Potter is commendable. :) That’s EXACTLY how Christian parents should handle it. Let them read it, but then discuss it with them. This teaches them how to exercise their reason and learn how to judge between good and illicit/evil actions.)
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Portrayals of magic are usually based on fantasy :) My point was the novels depict the use of magic in a mora..."
So I understand your thoughts, I think, but I am not sure we agree on the nature of magic in Harry Potter. The reason I questioned whether or not I should let Harry Potter be read in my home is that I worried the magic would have an occult/satanic source, which is what I believe God instructs us against in the Bible. (I guess we disagree, at least in your devil's advocate role, on what the Bible condemns as magic. I do not think fantasy magic is what the Bible is condemning.) After reading it, I did not find that type of magic. I found a "Lord of the Rings" type of magic where some people have it, others don't, and those who have it can use it for good or evil. Just because the term 'witchcraft' is used, does not, in my opinion, mean we are talking about the same thing.
Since I do not believe this type make-believe magic is biblically condemned, I do not see a need for this type of magic to be redeemed. Therefore, I do not feel that I am being contradictory to my earlier posts regarding content.
I am sure you have more questions. Ask on.😉
(But eventually you will run my well dry, Stephen! I am no intellectual!😅)
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I completely respect this view, Elijah. I agree, it can be hard to apply in every arena of life especially when "the greats" do not hold to it, but the effort to be consistent with one's beliefs is commendable.
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Regarding the "iconic" issue. You are absolutely right that that should not be the deciding factor in what we allow ourselves or our children to participate in. (Your Shades of Gray example being perfect.) However, it was only one of the reasons I allowed it. That reason was combined with the other 2 reasons I listed above: the magic was not the biblically-condemned, occult-based magic I feared it would be, and I felt they were ready to be exposed to topics that go contrary to our beliefs (poor behavior with few consequences) and to the difference between occult magic and fantasy magic.
I read them myself to check them out for my kids because they were iconic, and they wanted to read them. That is not why I let them read them. After reading them, I decided that there was good reason for the series being iconic! The positive themes of loyalty, faithful friendship, and doing hard things for good reasons were worth the conversations we had about Harry's poor behavior and real, biblically-condemned magic.
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Then we come to the question, "By whose standards is anything wrong?" And that, of course, all depends on ethics and morality. If someone believes that everything is only right or wrong because of people's own feelings or opinions (i.e., morality doesn't exist beyond human beings), then nothing is truly objectively wrong. Then everyone has their "own truth," and no one seeks to find out the truth.
Most people aren't actually subjectivists, and I strongly believe that subjectivism can't hold up in an argument, but still, our culture uses subjectivist phrases more and more often nowadays (e.g. "you do you" or "this is my truth; find your truth"). That just leads to a situation where we can justify anything we do simply because we "feel" it is right or because we "want" to do it, and that comes with a ton of issues.
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Well said, Lily. 👏
So a few things. :)Firstly, homosexuality is not the result of a mental disorder.
Secondly, I was referencing “The Hate U Give” because it’s a good example of books that help you understand someone else’s life and experience, not because it has any reference to sin. But that’s where I’ll repeat- “I’m talking about those who, even if they don’t believe in Jesus, are still good people. … [as for] people who are, using your example, gay or trans- they just have different beliefs.” That doesn’t mean you have to agree with their actions as okay, but since being queer doesn’t make you a bad person, and definitely not bad on the level of rape/murder, we are called to love them. “Love requires compassion, and compassion requires understanding.” Thus, books are a powerful way to understand. We’ve come full circle. :)
(Sorry for repeating so much of my own words. I’m not usually as arrogant as to quote myself but I didn’t feel like finding new ways to repeat things I’d said. :))
On the Harry Potter topic:Before I go into the details (happy to help Stephen :D), I would like to add that I love how Sharon phrased this part in particular:
“I found the grand majority of the magic in these books to be simply fantasy. There was no evil source of the magic— the magical folks were simply born with it and it could be used either for good or evil.”
This part was one of the best, but as I read this discussion I find that I agree with literally everything she says on the subject! Anyway, onto how real witchcraft is different, featuring a former Wiccan and current Potterhead (me, if you hadn’t read between the lines! 😂)
The magic in Harry Potter is very tangible stuff- spells to make things fly, potions to make you immediately sprout boils, mythical creatures like goblins and dragons, plants that prevent werewolves from mentally transforming during full moon nights, magical necklaces that you can use to go back in time. Things so obviously fantasy that 99% of people (there’s always that one wacky outlier) never believe in them.
Witchcraft in “real life” (it’s not real, but you know what I mean) is very different. Nobody tries to make things fly, or sprout boils, or go back in time, etc. Because if these were the lies Satan was using, nobody would believe it. If they even bothered to check… nothing would happen, obviously. Waving a wand will never make things fly, and even those who practice witchcraft know that.
Real life witchcraft is a lot more subtle, because Satan needs it to be just vague enough to make it seem authentic. Spells are used for healing, potions for purity, mythical creatures (typically fairies) are “partnered with” to increase the “effectiveness” of spells, “magical” items are used for protection. It’s Satan promising all the things you can only find in Jesus, but in a way that lets you keep your own control over it. And when it’s such vague things like “healing” and “protection”, it’s easy to think it worked when it’s fake.
On occasion, there will seem to be overlap- love potions can be used in Wicca, and Amortentia is a plot-relevant love potion in the Harry Potter series. However, love potions in witchcraft are considered to actually bring real love, and Amortentia in Harry Potter is said to bring a “cheap imitation” of love, AKA a really strong infatuation. Which is stressed to an important degree- the main villain was conceived on Amortentia (and the resulting infatuation, not real love) and therefore he cannot love in any way.
I would also like to add that divination (tarot, crystal balls, tea leaves, palmistry, astrology, etc.) is a large part of real-world witchcraft. While it is a referenced a moderate amount in Harry Potter books 3-5, it is described as “the most imprecise branch of magic”, and “very wooly”, and is constantly mocked, with none of the main characters believing in it (and the couple minor characters that do are written comically).
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Before I go into the details (happy to help Stephen :D), I would like to add that I love how Sharon phrased this part in particular:
“I found the grand majority of the ..."
Eden, that was very helpful! Thank you for sharing that.
I have a question about occult practices. You say that they do not work, and that is why Satan has to be vague and subtle with it. I am wondering, though, if these practices ever "work". Can satanic power ever actually be wielded in witchcraft? I am not trying to make it out that Satan would have anywhere near the power God would, but he and his demons do have power. Would he not be able to grant the wishes of someone using witchcraft in order to convince that person of the "validity" of their religion?
I was a big fan of this series and I am still reading it to keep a promise to someone important to me. So 😮💨 The Throne of Glass series by Sarah J. Maas. I read the books 1-3 a long while ago and I remember loving them. Honestly, I wasn't very mindful of content back then so I don't remember too clearly. But I picked up the remaining books in the series and I was surprised at how the story just took such a bad turn. The previous books weren't like the ones that follow.
There are s*x scenes, cursing, a bisexual character, and violence( although the gore level depends on you). I'm not sure how to do a very good content warning 😅
But I'll just briefly describe religion and the kind of beings and magic system.
They have their own gods and goddesses in the story. There are fae, shapeshifters, people born with magic, little folk, witches(but they don't do spells to my knowledge) and all sorts of mythical creatures like wyverns. There is elemental magic and another magic system involving markings.
I really used to love this series and I still like some character arcs, but I don't want to decieve anyone about it. The content is not good.
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I read the books 1-3 a long while ago an..."
Good to know, Casey! Thank you for sharing.
Sharon wrote: "Casey wrote: "I was a big fan of this series and I am still reading it to keep a promise to someone important to me. So 😮💨 The Throne of Glass series by Sarah J. Maas. I read the books 1-3 a lon..."
No problem 😊 I know it's a pretty popular one and the gears shifted so fast. I hope no one else ends up invested just to have to quit it later.
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I read the ..."
Yes, that is one of the worst things I can think of happening to me as a reader!😅
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I read the books 1-3 a long while ago an..."
I have heard the same about the ACoTaR series. It's such a shame!
Lily - Books by Starlight wrote: "Casey wrote: "I was a big fan of this series and I am still reading it to keep a promise to someone important to me. So 😮💨 The Throne of Glass series by Sarah J. Maas. I read the books 1-3 a lon..."
Yes! Except The Throne of Glass series is labelled YA, I hear, while ACOTAR is New Adult.
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I also think it’s important to be exposed to other lifestyles, experiences, and beliefs. Sheltering ourselves isn’t the solution, and it leads to prejudice rather than holiness. These are real people, even if they’re represented in a fictional way, and we’re called to love them. Love requires compassion, and compassion requires understanding (even if disagreeing at the same time). We are called to be in the world but not of it, and only listening to voices that support our opinions/faith feels like just hiding from it instead. In the words of NF, “a closed mind is the mind of an idiot”.
Of course, that’s just how I feel on the subject. I will keep putting books in here with content warnings on LGBTQ, swearing, promiscuity and violence because I love y’all and will help you find books you appreciate.